complete statementnaqt.com wrote:The initial results submitted from the St. Mark's School of Texas Invitational (held on February 25) documented a statistically anomalous performance by the Windhaven Park E team given its members' previous tournament experience.
After reviewing comments from coaches, moderators, and players involved with the matches and soliciting statements from the Windhaven Park E team and coach, NAQT extended an offer to the team to validate the results by demonstrating a similar proficiency at quiz bowl under the controlled circumstances of a Skype session. The team declined this offer.
As a result of that decision, NAQT chose not to accept the submitted results and has instead vacated all wins by Windhaven Park teams at the tournament, rescinded invitations to the HSNCT earned at earlier events, and banned two of the players on Windhaven Park E from further competition at NAQT events. In addition, NAQT has issued nationals invitations to teams at the tournament that had a plausible chance to earn them if their games against Windhaven Park teams had gone the other way.
Despite the exceptional nature of this action, NAQT does not consider performances by Windhaven Park students at other tournaments or by other Windhaven Park players at the St. Mark's School of Texas Invitational to be in any way questionable.
2017 St. Mark's Results
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2017 St. Mark's Results
Jeff Hoppes
President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
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President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
Editor emeritus, ACF
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Re: 2017 St. Mark's Results
Has NAQT, TQBA, or St. John's informed anyone in the Plano West faculty or administration about this incident? This is a somewhat ambiguous case because the students were not representing the school, but they were allowed to play as a team because they all attend the school.
Also, has anyone determined whether access to the questions was gained through the tournament site, by question sharing across states, or through the NAQT website?
Also, has anyone determined whether access to the questions was gained through the tournament site, by question sharing across states, or through the NAQT website?
Re: 2017 St. Mark's Results
The TQBA announcement seems a bit incongruent with NAQT's. Was the alleged actions just due to the two students, or was it more systemic?
Edit: also, this happens again in February.
Edit: also, this happens again in February.
Fred Morlan
University of Kentucky CoP, 2017
International Quiz Bowl Tournaments, CEO, co-owner
former PACE member, president, etc.
former hsqbrank manager, former NAQT writer & subject editor, former hsqb Administrator/Chief Administrator
University of Kentucky CoP, 2017
International Quiz Bowl Tournaments, CEO, co-owner
former PACE member, president, etc.
former hsqbrank manager, former NAQT writer & subject editor, former hsqb Administrator/Chief Administrator
Re: 2017 St. Mark's Results
TQBA does not allege a systemic issue.
Stephen Fontenot
Texas Quiz Bowl Alliance Deputy Director
Communications, UT Dallas
Strake Jesuit '96 -+-+- Southwestern '00
Texas Quiz Bowl Alliance Deputy Director
Communications, UT Dallas
Strake Jesuit '96 -+-+- Southwestern '00
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Re: 2017 St. Mark's Results
NAQT has not contacted the school's administration.Big Y wrote:Has NAQT, TQBA, or St. John's informed anyone in the Plano West faculty or administration about this incident? This is a somewhat ambiguous case because the students were not representing the school, but they were allowed to play as a team because they all attend the school.
We don't know the precise details of what happened in this case. (Note that we have not conclusively determined that there was prior access, which is why we were willing to offer the option of cross-checking the tournament performance with the results from a Skype session.) At this time we have no reason to believe that this incident resulted from inappropriate access to the NAQT website.Big Y wrote:Also, has anyone determined whether access to the questions was gained through the tournament site, by question sharing across states, or through the NAQT website?
Jeff Hoppes
President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
Editor emeritus, ACF
"I wish to make some kind of joke about Jeff's love of birds, but I always fear he'll turn them on me Hitchcock-style." -Fred
President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
Editor emeritus, ACF
"I wish to make some kind of joke about Jeff's love of birds, but I always fear he'll turn them on me Hitchcock-style." -Fred
Re: 2017 St. Mark's Results
Stephen: Why is the entire Windhaven Park program banned from TQBA? Why is their coach specifically banned as well? I know both are stated as indefinitely, in contrast with two players' permanent bans, so there is some differentiation there, but I'm wondering why there is a lack of a definite length.
Fred Morlan
University of Kentucky CoP, 2017
International Quiz Bowl Tournaments, CEO, co-owner
former PACE member, president, etc.
former hsqbrank manager, former NAQT writer & subject editor, former hsqb Administrator/Chief Administrator
University of Kentucky CoP, 2017
International Quiz Bowl Tournaments, CEO, co-owner
former PACE member, president, etc.
former hsqbrank manager, former NAQT writer & subject editor, former hsqb Administrator/Chief Administrator
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Re: 2017 St. Mark's Results
Note that the most serious sanctions here are in fact limited to two players:AKKOLADE wrote:The TQBA announcement seems a bit incongruent with NAQT's. Was the alleged actions just due to the two students, or was it more systemic?
TQBA is an independent organization and has issued its own statement about the events that took place at this tournament.naqt.com wrote:banned two of the players on Windhaven Park E from further competition at NAQT events.
Jeff Hoppes
President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
Editor emeritus, ACF
"I wish to make some kind of joke about Jeff's love of birds, but I always fear he'll turn them on me Hitchcock-style." -Fred
President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
Editor emeritus, ACF
"I wish to make some kind of joke about Jeff's love of birds, but I always fear he'll turn them on me Hitchcock-style." -Fred
Re: 2017 St. Mark's Results
Just wanted to say, NAQT has been very helpful in bringing justice to Ethan and Basel. I spent many hours organizing the tournament, so I am very pleased that NAQT has taken this investigation as seriously as we at St. Mark's have. They have been very professional, thorough, and committed to getting to the bottom of the issue, and for that I am very thankful.
John Crawford
St. Mark's School of Texas
Georgetown University
St. Mark's School of Texas
Georgetown University
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Re: 2017 St. Mark's Results
Could someone please elaborate on "statistically anomalous"? I've seen the results, and if it's simply the fact that these two players scored at abnormally high levels throughout the tournament, that's a problem. It seems wrong that statistical anomaly and failure to corroborate tournament results over Skype establish grounds for vacating an entire school's wins for an entire tournament, but at the same time, I feel like NAQT is euphemizing a deeper problem. Clarification would be appreciated.bird bird bird bird bird wrote:complete statementnaqt.com wrote:The initial results submitted from the St. Mark's School of Texas Invitational (held on February 25) documented a statistically anomalous performance by the Windhaven Park E team given its members' previous tournament experience.
After reviewing comments from coaches, moderators, and players involved with the matches and soliciting statements from the Windhaven Park E team and coach, NAQT extended an offer to the team to validate the results by demonstrating a similar proficiency at quiz bowl under the controlled circumstances of a Skype session. The team declined this offer.
As a result of that decision, NAQT chose not to accept the submitted results and has instead vacated all wins by Windhaven Park teams at the tournament, rescinded invitations to the HSNCT earned at earlier events, and banned two of the players on Windhaven Park E from further competition at NAQT events. In addition, NAQT has issued nationals invitations to teams at the tournament that had a plausible chance to earn them if their games against Windhaven Park teams had gone the other way.
Despite the exceptional nature of this action, NAQT does not consider performances by Windhaven Park students at other tournaments or by other Windhaven Park players at the St. Mark's School of Texas Invitational to be in any way questionable.
Devin James John Humphreys
Sacred Heart Academy High School (MI), Class of 2017 - 2015 HSNCT, 2016 NSC, 2017 NSC
Michigan State University, B.A. Class of 2020
University of Notre Dame, J.D. Class of 2023 - standby 2023 ICT-DII; coach 2023-24
Sacred Heart Academy High School (MI), Class of 2017 - 2015 HSNCT, 2016 NSC, 2017 NSC
Michigan State University, B.A. Class of 2020
University of Notre Dame, J.D. Class of 2023 - standby 2023 ICT-DII; coach 2023-24
Re: 2017 St. Mark's Results
I totally agree with this. It doesn't really seem right to penalize an entire program for an action that appears to be committed by only two members for which no absolutely conclusive evidence has been found. I personally believe that the team should be allowed to continue to compete until the is evidence that the players cheated, e.g. those two players regress back to the level of past performance, though I do understand why one might impose these sanctions upon the program. If this is the only issue, I would like to see these sanctions lifted. If this is not it, I beg you for a better explanation to this.dhumphreys17 wrote:
Could someone please elaborate on "statistically anomalous"? I've seen the results, and if it's simply the fact that these two players scored at abnormally high levels throughout the tournament, that's a problem. It seems wrong that statistical anomaly and failure to corroborate tournament results over Skype establish grounds for vacating an entire school's wins for an entire tournament, but at the same time, I feel like NAQT is euphemizing a deeper problem. Clarification would be appreciated.
Dean Ah Now
Millburn '20
Pomona '24
Millburn '20
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Re: 2017 St. Mark's Results
I've been in this storm for weeks now - and I'm sick of the entire thing.
I think it's safe to say Cistercian was one of the aggrieved parties in this
whole mess, but, HEY, at a certain point, you either move on, and practice more,
and get better --- or wallow in a trough of "what-might-have-been's" . . . and I don't
have time for that.
More info? That would be nice.
Will it happen? Probably not.
Move on!
I think it's safe to say Cistercian was one of the aggrieved parties in this
whole mess, but, HEY, at a certain point, you either move on, and practice more,
and get better --- or wallow in a trough of "what-might-have-been's" . . . and I don't
have time for that.
More info? That would be nice.
Will it happen? Probably not.
Move on!
Gregory Schweers
County of Dallas
City of Irving
Cistercian Preparatory School Team
The only Monk on this whole board
County of Dallas
City of Irving
Cistercian Preparatory School Team
The only Monk on this whole board
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Re: 2017 St. Mark's Results
For the record: both NAQT's members and staff on-site at the tournament considered the statistical record in this case to be not just "abnormally high," but so far out of the ordinary that it indicated some sort of advance access to question content.dhumphreys17 wrote:Could someone please elaborate on "statistically anomalous"? I've seen the results, and if it's simply the fact that these two players scored at abnormally high levels throughout the tournament, that's a problem. It seems wrong that statistical anomaly and failure to corroborate tournament results over Skype establish grounds for vacating an entire school's wins for an entire tournament, but at the same time, I feel like NAQT is euphemizing a deeper problem. Clarification would be appreciated.
Jeff Hoppes
President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
Editor emeritus, ACF
"I wish to make some kind of joke about Jeff's love of birds, but I always fear he'll turn them on me Hitchcock-style." -Fred
President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
Editor emeritus, ACF
"I wish to make some kind of joke about Jeff's love of birds, but I always fear he'll turn them on me Hitchcock-style." -Fred
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Re: 2017 St. Mark's Results
Has it been determined how that happened and what steps can be taken to prevent such "advance access" from becoming more pandemic? I know that here in Alabama, we are somewhat concerned about the security of our State Championship Tournament coming up on April 7....bird bird bird bird bird wrote:For the record: both NAQT's members and staff on-site at the tournament considered the statistical record in this case to be not just "abnormally high," but so far out of the ordinary that it indicated some sort of advance access to question content.dhumphreys17 wrote:Could someone please elaborate on "statistically anomalous"? I've seen the results, and if it's simply the fact that these two players scored at abnormally high levels throughout the tournament, that's a problem. It seems wrong that statistical anomaly and failure to corroborate tournament results over Skype establish grounds for vacating an entire school's wins for an entire tournament, but at the same time, I feel like NAQT is euphemizing a deeper problem. Clarification would be appreciated.
Lee Henry
AP Lit and APUSH Teacher
Quiz Bowl Coach
West Point High School
President-Elect/Past President- Alabama Scholastic Competition Association (ASCA)
AP Lit and APUSH Teacher
Quiz Bowl Coach
West Point High School
President-Elect/Past President- Alabama Scholastic Competition Association (ASCA)
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Re: 2017 St. Mark's Results
We do not know the details of what happened in the weeks leading up to this tournament.quizbowllee wrote:Has it been determined how that happened and what steps can be taken to prevent such "advance access" from becoming more pandemic?bird bird bird bird bird wrote:For the record: both NAQT's members and staff on-site at the tournament considered the statistical record in this case to be not just "abnormally high," but so far out of the ordinary that it indicated some sort of advance access to question content.dhumphreys17 wrote:Could someone please elaborate on "statistically anomalous"? I've seen the results, and if it's simply the fact that these two players scored at abnormally high levels throughout the tournament, that's a problem. It seems wrong that statistical anomaly and failure to corroborate tournament results over Skype establish grounds for vacating an entire school's wins for an entire tournament, but at the same time, I feel like NAQT is euphemizing a deeper problem. Clarification would be appreciated.
Lee, I'll contact you privately about this.quizbowllee wrote:I know that here in Alabama, we are somewhat concerned about the security of our State Championship Tournament coming up on April 7....
Jeff Hoppes
President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
Editor emeritus, ACF
"I wish to make some kind of joke about Jeff's love of birds, but I always fear he'll turn them on me Hitchcock-style." -Fred
President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
Editor emeritus, ACF
"I wish to make some kind of joke about Jeff's love of birds, but I always fear he'll turn them on me Hitchcock-style." -Fred
Re: 2017 St. Mark's Results
Oh wow, another scandal in February.
In my opinion, the most important thing is to try to figure out how the tournament's integrity was ruined - obviously it's beyond NAQT's direct control if a student snuck through a window to get access to the questions, but if there is a writer who is untrustworthy or one of the students has inappropriately accessed NAQT's administrative website, NAQT should be seriously concerned -- which I imagine NAQT is.
I also think that NAQT should try to explain the "statistical" argument here a bit better. Don't get me wrong, if anyone put up these numbers at my tournament, I would immediately suspect that they were cheating, but to many people who do not know any better it may just look like "hey dude, this guy had a really good tournament, and you (wrongly, perhaps) said he cheated." And to add my two cents: I don't think it looks good to offer a Skype tournament as a way of clearing someone's name -- while it's immediately clear to me that results should be reproducable over a Skype session, I suspect that many people wouldn't be convinced - I can see someone failing to reproduce their results over Skype weaseling their way out of it* with statements like "I wasn't being as aggressive since I was playing against no one, etc." And it just looks tacky to offer something to the extent of "put up 80ppg or more on this Skype packet and we'll clear you." Even if the players had a Skype session and had met some threshold, was NAQT really going to clear them on that basis alone?
*to the general public or even a court of law.
In my opinion, the most important thing is to try to figure out how the tournament's integrity was ruined - obviously it's beyond NAQT's direct control if a student snuck through a window to get access to the questions, but if there is a writer who is untrustworthy or one of the students has inappropriately accessed NAQT's administrative website, NAQT should be seriously concerned -- which I imagine NAQT is.
I also think that NAQT should try to explain the "statistical" argument here a bit better. Don't get me wrong, if anyone put up these numbers at my tournament, I would immediately suspect that they were cheating, but to many people who do not know any better it may just look like "hey dude, this guy had a really good tournament, and you (wrongly, perhaps) said he cheated." And to add my two cents: I don't think it looks good to offer a Skype tournament as a way of clearing someone's name -- while it's immediately clear to me that results should be reproducable over a Skype session, I suspect that many people wouldn't be convinced - I can see someone failing to reproduce their results over Skype weaseling their way out of it* with statements like "I wasn't being as aggressive since I was playing against no one, etc." And it just looks tacky to offer something to the extent of "put up 80ppg or more on this Skype packet and we'll clear you." Even if the players had a Skype session and had met some threshold, was NAQT really going to clear them on that basis alone?
*to the general public or even a court of law.
Ike
UIUC 13
UIUC 13
Re: 2017 St. Mark's Results
Another question I have: what data was used to determine "statistically anomalous"? Because I just went through a bunch of TQBA tournament results and saw no one who ever played for Windhaven Park named Basel Cheema, though I might have missed something. Or did NAQT remove them completely from the site?
EDIT: I previously named Ethan McBride but after realizing that the school name was actually Plano West, I found info in him. My bad.
EDIT: I previously named Ethan McBride but after realizing that the school name was actually Plano West, I found info in him. My bad.
Dean Ah Now
Millburn '20
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Re: 2017 St. Mark's Results
NAQT probably has to be careful about what they say, but people interested in whether or not a statistical argument has merit can do some research.
I'll add that, while it's easy to point out that NAQT's and TQBA's solution is not a perfect solution that solves every problem real and imagined, I would be interested in hearing from anybody who can suggest how this situation could have been handled better. Obviously, most of us do not know all of the details, but it does seem like we have a decent overall sense of what the primary evidence is. As somebody who oversees a lot of tournaments, I would love to know if there is a better approach than what has been done here.
I'll add that, while it's easy to point out that NAQT's and TQBA's solution is not a perfect solution that solves every problem real and imagined, I would be interested in hearing from anybody who can suggest how this situation could have been handled better. Obviously, most of us do not know all of the details, but it does seem like we have a decent overall sense of what the primary evidence is. As somebody who oversees a lot of tournaments, I would love to know if there is a better approach than what has been done here.
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Re: 2017 St. Mark's Results
I think NAQT is a great organization!
They have worked with me on many issues - sometimes we agree; at other times, not!
But always with respect and attention -- or so I thought.
Having said that: isn't there an inherent vulnerability when tournament packets
are used in various parts of the country? -- and not at the same exact time and date?
Doesn't that admit of the possibility of 'sharing' what should NEVER be 'shared'?
I don't know.
My real fear is not the case at hand -- "it" was so obvious that the matter was
identified amazingly fast, and then dealt with. I was there, folks; they handled
it pretty well, IMHO!
Rather, my real fear is that the "good team" or even the "really good team" needs
only 'a little help from one's friends' to push them over the line to victory.
How in the world would anyone be able to statistically analyze that sort of "micro-advantage"
and unambiguously identify it? People smarter than I might be able to help here.
In closing, I only point this out because Cistercian has a long record of our students
enjoying this wonderful activity - and many people work selflessly long hours to make
tournaments run as smoothly as they do - both here in Texas and nationally.
THEY, too, deserve to have their efforts respected, not circumvented by a few who
think winning is the only thing
- it ain't!
They have worked with me on many issues - sometimes we agree; at other times, not!
But always with respect and attention -- or so I thought.
Having said that: isn't there an inherent vulnerability when tournament packets
are used in various parts of the country? -- and not at the same exact time and date?
Doesn't that admit of the possibility of 'sharing' what should NEVER be 'shared'?
I don't know.
My real fear is not the case at hand -- "it" was so obvious that the matter was
identified amazingly fast, and then dealt with. I was there, folks; they handled
it pretty well, IMHO!
Rather, my real fear is that the "good team" or even the "really good team" needs
only 'a little help from one's friends' to push them over the line to victory.
How in the world would anyone be able to statistically analyze that sort of "micro-advantage"
and unambiguously identify it? People smarter than I might be able to help here.
In closing, I only point this out because Cistercian has a long record of our students
enjoying this wonderful activity - and many people work selflessly long hours to make
tournaments run as smoothly as they do - both here in Texas and nationally.
THEY, too, deserve to have their efforts respected, not circumvented by a few who
think winning is the only thing
- it ain't!
Gregory Schweers
County of Dallas
City of Irving
Cistercian Preparatory School Team
The only Monk on this whole board
County of Dallas
City of Irving
Cistercian Preparatory School Team
The only Monk on this whole board