Princeton High School Academic Tournament XV, NJ 10/03/09

[Youse Da Force]

Princeton University will host its 15th annual High School Academic Tournament, to be held on October 3rd, 2009 on the lovely Princeton University Campus.

This year's PHSAT will use NAQT IS-86. The format will be standard NAQT.

The field is full.

Fees will be:
$80 for the first team from a school.
$60 for each additional team
-$10 Discount per Buzzer System
Travel discounts will be determined on a case-by-case basis. We will also be offering a discount for experienced moderators. If you believe either of these apply to your team, mention it in your registration email.

The last day to register without incurring a late fee will be Saturday Sept. 19th.

While this will be my first time being a Tournament Director, I have assisted with large tournaments in the past at Garfield Hts. and Princeton. This does include last year's PHSAT, and I am aware of the complaints regarding that tournament's logistics. So, while, of course, I cannot guarantee there will be no issues, I can assure you special effort is being given to correcting/preventing last year's mistakes.

Please e-mail dhumphre (at) princeton.edu for registration and/or any questions.

Registered Schools:
Saint Joseph (2)
Wilmington Charter(5)
St. Andrew's Episcopal School (1)
Dorman (2)
Bloomfield (2)
Kellenberg Memorial(2)
Bergen (3)
Chatham (1)
MAST (2)
Seton Hall Prep (1)
Millburn (3)
North Shore (2)
Stuyvesant (2)
Pingry (4)
Bensalem (1)
North Babylon (2)
High Tech (1)
Half Hollow Hills HS West(2)
Colonia (1)
Great Neck South (2)
Tatnall (1)
Northern Valley (2)
East Brunswick (1)
Moravian (2)
Pennridge (2)
West Chester (1)
Livingston (3)




Dan Humphrey
Vice-President, Princeton Quizbowl

[Down and out in Quintana Roo]

The format will be standard, timed NAQT.

Really? Timed? Hm, okay, since TJ isn't using timed questions, it's good to get practice in once i guess.

$80 for the first team from a school.
$60 for each additional team

Well that's less than last year but still not cheap, but i'm glad not to see a three-digit number again.

While this will be my first time being a Tournament Director, I have assisted with large tournaments in the past at Garfield Hts. and Princeton. This does include last year's PHSAT, and I am aware of the complaints regarding that tournament's logistics. So, while, of course, I cannot guarantee there will be no issues, I can assure you special effort is being given to correcting/preventing last year's mistakes.

Good. Let me/us know what we can do to help things go a little more smoothly. Unfortunately, you have a lot of work to do, but with these sort of commitments and what seems to be a positive attitude, i think you can count on us wanting to come again.

[Youse Da Force]

I've updated the initial post to reflect the IS set (IS -86) and the currently registered teams.

[TheKingInYellow]

State College would be interested

[BroNi]

2 teams, 3 buzzers, 1 moderator.

[Iamrebel]

When is the deadline for registering?

[Youse Da Force]

The last day to register without incurring a late fee will be Saturday Sept. 19th. You can still make payments after this date.

[actoftheapostle]

.

[SHP Pirate]

Seton Hall Prep will be there with one team and one buzzer. (Registration to follow on Monday.)

[Sacapuntas]

We're possibly interested--going through some coach upheaval right now. I will have a definite for you within the next couple of weeks.

[Self-incompatibility in plants]

We're possibly interested--going through some coach upheaval right now. I will have a definite for you within the next couple of weeks.

Very cool.

[Down and out in Quintana Roo]

Unfortunately we won't be going to this, since RM is using the same set in a couple weeks.

Sorry. Maybe next year. Mt. Pleasant can take our place as the obligatory Delaware team.

[Ben Horowitz]

Simsbury Connecticut is HOPING to make the long slog down to New Jersey to take part. However we are unsure of transportation and the like, so put us down for "expressing interest".

[Youse Da Force]

I've updated the most current list of registered teams. We currently have 12 open slots left. Remember, the registration deadline is this Saturday, the 19th.

[Al Hirt]

East Brunswick is interested and will most likely register within the next few days, before the deadline. If confirmed, we will bring one team.

[Youse Da Force]

The field is now full. However, if there are teams which definitely still wish to attend, please email me, as we have teams on a wait-list and if space can be obtained from the University, we will expand to 54 teams. Email me for details at the address in the original post.

[btressler]

Is this still being run on the clock?

Do you need any?

Will all the rooms have two staff members so we don't have 12-tossup rounds?

[Youse Da Force]

EDIT:
The question of timing is up in the air, and will be decided closer to the date of the tournament. pending some logistical issues. If timing will not hamper the quality of matches, we will use it.

Also, we have the 54 teams, and aren't going to add any more.

[BroNi]

What time do you need us there by and what building should we report to?

[Youse Da Force]

The parking, arrival, and meeting information is all in my email of Sept. 7.

[BroNi]

So sorry, forgot to check there. Thanks!

[Edward Powers]

Dan,

With 54 teams coming, have you made any decisions about brackets? And, have you decided whether playoffs will involve some kind of round robin with championship & consolation round-robins going on, or will it be like last year---the top 16 in single elimination playoffs? And, if the latter, what happens if one or two teams do not show up, as happened last year, leaving bye rounds for some in the prelims and, as a consequence, lower winning percentages for the 2nd & 3rd teams in any bracket so affected, possibly eliminating a team from the playoffs simply because it had one fewer chance to gain another victory in its bracket? Of course, most teams I know would prefer round robin playoffs, which could also give as many teams as possible as many matches as possible, but that of course is your decision. Still, do you care to share on the format for the day if you have, in fact, made decisions yet on these issues? My guess is that most of the registered teams coming would find such information quite interesting. So---any info you can and wish to share? Or are you still deliberating on these issues?

[Youse Da Force]

There will be 6 brackets of 9 teams. After the round robin prelims, we will reconvene and announce playoffs. There will be three simultaneous playoffs going on, with the top, middle, and bottom 16 playing single elimination playoffs. (The bottom six will be given an option on what they want to do, since I expect their "parent" teams won't want to wait for them to play round robin.)

I've been doing what I can to make sure I'm aware ahead of time about teams that won't be showing up, but if it does happen, the bye still counts as a win, but won't affect their ppg/ppth. Which is how ties will be broken. We'll be playing 20 question rounds, as timed round won't work logistically, so ppg and ppth should be the same.

[Auks Ran Ova]

You know, you could have the top six teams play a round robin and the bottom 48 split into three single-elim brackets. Just a suggestion!

[btressler]

I disagree. Excluding teams from championship contention based on one prelim loss is kinda lousy. Two I can live with.

And they've probably already bought their trophies anyway.

[Youse Da Force]

Uh, so yeah, I've thought about it some more, and some other coaches' suggestions agree:

Top 12 teams go into two 6-team round-robin brackets, winners play each other in a one game championship.

The next 16 play a single-elimination bracket, as does the 16 below that. Bottom 10 can fill in for teams that leave, or scrimmage, or whatever they'd like.

We can't do round robin for everyone because not enough of our staff will be able to stay that late, and not all the low-ranked teams will want to play anyway.

This gives more games for the top teams and should allow for teams wanting to leave.

[btressler]

Do I understand that we are now using all 15 packets (9 prelim, 5 playoff, 1 championship)?

In 2004 we did 11 prelim rounds and 4 playoff rounds. "This Tournament Goes to 11" was not a joke. The TJ coach told me she got home after 2am. Since many years there are lots of new moderators, even doing 7 rounds usually takes us to 4pm.

Then there's the obvious issue of one packet mistake causing a huge problem, which happened in 2004.

I strongly vote that you reconsider. Playoff brackets are great when you have experienced moderators and a smaller field. There is nothing wrong with a 16-team single elimination playoff bracket in a tournament of this size.

[Edward Powers]

Coach Tressler is wise to warn of a tournament running til 9 or 10 in the evening, but perhaps there is a compromise. See next post, since my edit of this message has been fouled up.

[Edward Powers]

Coach Tressler is wise to warn of a tournament running til 9 or 10 in the evening, but perhaps there is a compromise. If you have a 16 team single elimination, it will still be a 12 round tournament, yes? ( With 6 brackets of 9 teams, that's 8 prelim games to determine the top 16, then 4 more to determine a champion.)

Why not 9 brackets of 6 teams for 5 prelim games before lunch. The top 2 from each bracket make a championship field of 18, and the next two a consolation bracket of 18, and then a 2nd consolation bracket of the last 18 after lunch---or the final 18 could choose to go home or scrimmage if they wish.

Break these 18 in each playoff divisions into 3 brackets of 6 for an afternoon round robin of 5 matches each, leaving 3 1st place teams at the end and the best 2nd place team based on overall record or whatever other tie-breaker that seems fair, for a natural Semifinal of 4. Also, make sure that no 2nd place team in the afternoon brackets is in the same bracket as the 1st place team from its prelim bracket.

This allows everyone at least 10 games, and the last 5 games against roughly equal competition across the entire field of 54. while allowing most teams except those involved in the championship the chance to leave around 4-5pm. Last week at the U of Maryland, a full 12 rounds were completed by roughly 6pm, so even the championship rounds might be completed by 6 PM here as well if only 12 rounds at most are played, and only 4 teams would be in such championship playoffs, addressing Coach Tressler concerns about a tournament that never ends.

Finally, if at the end of the Championship Round Robin brackets in the afternoon it seems unfair to select only one 2nd place team, then pick all 6---all 1st and 2nd place teams, give the two best 1st place teams a bye based on some fair criterion, have the other 4 play to create a natural semifinal, and eventually crown a champion. But this would add another round, making it a 13 round day.

Perhaps the one downside with this scenario is that in 6 team brackets in the AM, rather than in 9 team brackets, 2 losses will probably automatically eliminate teams from championship consideration after only 5 matches in an unforeseeably very strong 6 team bracket, whereas in a 9 team bracket, a team that has 2 losses, going let's say 6-2, might still make it as a very strong 3rd place team into the final 16. So, perhaps Coach Tressler is correct afterall---perhaps a single elimination is best after 8 prelim matches.

But---my final thoughts, I promise--- maybe a way to avoid this potential problem is to expand the Championship Afternoon Round Robin to the top 24 teams---creating 4 brackets of 6 Teams each for afternoon Round Robins, with the 4 bracket winners playing a natural Semifinal---and now you are back to a 12 Round day at most, while still alowing the top 24 teams from the prelims to have a shot at the championship---all first & second place teams from the AM and 6 of the 9 best 3rd place teams from the AM as well. Perhaps you could also do the same for the next 12 to 24 teams, with the bottom 6-18 playing in their own bracket or choosing to go home---or some variation on this theme of 6 team round robin brackets in the PM. This would give as many teams as possible a chance of playing at least 10 matches, allow the afternoon games to be between teams of comparable abilities, and, possibly, end all matches by 5-6pm the latest, and allow teams that wish to leave early that option as well.

Of course, these are only suggestions---do with them as you wish.

[Down and out in Quintana Roo]

Yeah, everything being said here, especially by Bill, should be accounted for. This tournament (while run by a different person) last year was a scramble, a mess, and disorganized. Individual stats were not kept, playoff stats (and scores!) were completely lost, and this was with LESS teams in attendance than what will be coming this Saturday.

For a field this large, single-elimination is okay, especially when many schools have 2-3 hours drives home after this. Nobody wants to leave at 7-8pm and get home at like 10pm. Or if you don't have single elimination, you CAN'T have like 5-6 rounds of round-robin in the playoffs AFTER 7-8 rounds of round-robin in the morning (which will last into the afternoon, obviously, anyway).

Just... i dunno... have common sense.

There's a reason why CR felt really iffy about going to Princeton this year. Maybe this large field is tantalizing, but this has "catastrophe" written all over it if some sensible decision is not made.

[Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)]

I might suggest single elimination where you offer teams the chance to play out some kind of consolation elimination bracket all the way through - so if you have 8 teams left, the 4 winners would continue on to play for the championship and the 4 losers would then go on to play some kind of semifinal for 5th-8th place that is run the way the semis for 1st-4th are. If a team decides to leave, then a team can just get a bye and play the next game, and you can make some approximation of a top to bottom ranking while making sure the tournament doesn't go way too late.

[Youse Da Force]

My apologies, I shouldn't have changed our bracketing so quickly, but thanks for the input.

Now, there are some unchangeable logistical issues that prevent us from playing 9 brackets of 6. And, while I'm not sure I agree that the tournament would run as late as you all suspect, the revision I posted would still be later than I had originally intended, and yes, doesn't leave room for a packet-reading error.

However, I've realized that since we have 54 teams, the top 8.1 get NAQT bids, and so the 9th team matters. As such, we will be doing a modified version of my original brackets. We will still do top 16 (and mid and bottom, if the teams don't leave) but the losers of the 1st round in the top bracket will continue on in a separate bracket as they play for 9th place. Everything else will be single-elimination. That will give everyone 9 rounds, which is less than the 10 in some suggestions, but is logistically simpler. And the majority of teams still get 10.


As a last note, being the TD, and having participated in/helped run many, many tournaments in high school, I can say very definitely that these rounds will not take anything remotely near an hour each to play.

[AKKOLADE]

How'd this go?

[New York Undercover]

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