Rumble on the Pike 2009

[chatt_r]

Richard Montgomery is ridiculously pleased to announce that Rumble on the Pike will be returning on September 12th, 2009, after it's one year hiatus.
The tournament will be run using the NAQT IS-86 set, so this will be the year's first NAQT Nationals Qualifier. (This will no longer be a "warm-up" tournament)
Registration is officially open, and the cap is at 32 teams because that is approximately how many good readers we will be able to gather.
Fees are as follows:
$60 per team
-$5 for multiple teams ($115 for 2 teams, 165 for 3 etc)
-$5 per buzzer set (maximum of 3 per school)
-$10 for driving over 200 miles
+$10 for buying the questions
-$5 per team for pre-registration (which is from now until Sept 8)

We will set a format depending on the number of teams that register, but it is our goal to have every team play at least 12 games, and hopefully 14.
To ensure that the tournament runs in a timely manner, we plan to use timers with 10 minute halves. I can assure you that we will have sufficient speed and consistency among our readers to make timers feasible. However, the presence of timers is negotiable if there are concerns with it.

We still plan to run a singles trash tournament at lunch (so that hungry teammates can still eat), with a $5 registration fee. While we would prefer you indicate whether there is interest in the trash tournament during your registration, on-site registration is permitted.

To register, please email me at rajarshi692@gmail.com and give all information pertinent to registration (number of teams, buzzer sets, distance etc).
If you have questions or comments, please contact me at the email.

[Carangoides ciliarius]

That's a lot of games. Awesome, i hope it all works out.

Let's combine Trey's message and mine and say we'll bring 2-3 teams (i hope) and a buzzer set, and i will gladly volunteer to moderate. I'll e-mail with official word as well, in time.

[Cernel Joson]

Saint Anselm's will probably bring 1-2 teams to this. Will there be mathcomp in this set?

Actually, how is NAQT handling mathcomp in IS sets? Are they still allowing hosts to choose whether to include it or not?

[Wurzel-Flummery]

Actually, how is NAQT handling mathcomp in IS sets? Are they still allowing hosts to choose whether to include it or not?

I remember hearing something like that, but I'm not sure.

[Self-incompatibility in plants]

Actually, how is NAQT handling mathcomp in IS sets? Are they still allowing hosts to choose whether to include it or not?

I remember hearing something like that, but I'm not sure.

Well, if you are given the choice, I hope you guys choose a tournament without math.

[The Gambler, the Nun, and the Radio]

Actually, how is NAQT handling mathcomp in IS sets? Are they still allowing hosts to choose whether to include it or not?

I remember hearing something like that, but I'm not sure.

Well, if you are given the choice, I hope you guys choose a tournament without math.

I believe that hosts get to choose whether or not to include math calc. Though I would like to point out that most teams will prefer not to have it.

[Cernel Joson]

Actually, how is NAQT handling mathcomp in IS sets? Are they still allowing hosts to choose whether to include it or not?

I remember hearing something like that, but I'm not sure.

Well, if you are given the choice, I hope you guys choose a tournament without math.

I believe that hosts get to choose whether or not to include math calc. Though I would like to point out that most teams will prefer not to have it.

This, pretty much.

[RyuAqua]

This is nothing official, given that we don't start school for two more weeks and this tournament is the day after our first week of school, but put GDS down as "expressing interest" in bringing 1-3 teams and a buzzer to this. Such interest would be greatly magnified if you promise that complete stats will be posted soon after the tournament.

Another note: Given that you'll already want lunch to be short (an hour max) during a 12 to 14 round tournament, and given that players like eating (and moderators like resting their voices), it seems unfeasible to run a trash tournament during the lunch break. W-ould it make sense to reduce the planned lunch trash tournament to a trash round or two during a shorter lunch time? It'd still be just as fun.

[Isaacbh]

Isaac Hirsch and Possibly Other People High School can most likely come to this, but Blake itself looks unlikely.

[Gerrardfo]

I may be able/willing to moderate if that service is desired.

[chatt_r]

NAQT did not offer us an option on math comp, and I was not aware we were given a choice.
However, since Princeton is already running this same packet, I'm assuming they made the decision earlier, and since NAQT is giving us the same set, we were not asked.

As far as moderators go:
Thank you for those who volunteered. Until school starts we can't really say if we need "outside" moderators, but if we do you will surely be contacted.

[Carangoides ciliarius]

So math will be there. Crap.

Anyway, field update, if there is one? We're shooting for 2 teams, i will gladly read, and our buzzers better work.

And we you still shooting for a somewhat-crazy 12-14 games?

[Matt Weiner]

NAQT did not offer us an option on math comp, and I was not aware we were given a choice.
However, since Princeton is already running this same packet, I'm assuming they made the decision earlier, and since NAQT is giving us the same set, we were not asked.

I'm not sure what this means, but NAQT does allow you to modify the questions. You can instruct moderators to skip the arithmetic tossups, or you can make it even easier for them by physically pasting tossup 23 or 24 over each arithmetic question before you make your copies of the packets. Since I'm sure the majority of your field and the entirety of people who know what they're talking about have no interest in stopping their quizbowl game every 8 tossups for a test of multiplication speed, I suggest you go this route.

[Prof.Whoopie]

Any word from Fred on the possible PACE qualifying nature of this tournament?

[RyuAqua]

NAQT does allow you to modify the questions. You can instruct moderators to skip the arithmetic tossups, or you can make it even easier for them by physically pasting tossup 23 or 24 over each arithmetic question before you make your copies of the packets. Since I'm sure the majority of your field and the entirety of people who know what they're talking about have no interest in stopping their quizbowl game every 8 tossups for a test of multiplication speed, I suggest you go this route.

Agreed. As far as I know, Matt Weiner actually did this for Virginia's NAQT state tournament last year. It was generally regarded as a good decision.

[bt_green_warbler]

NAQT did not offer us an option on math comp, and I was not aware we were given a choice.
However, since Princeton is already running this same packet, I'm assuming they made the decision earlier, and since NAQT is giving us the same set, we were not asked.

I'm not sure what this means, but NAQT does allow you to modify the questions. You can instruct moderators to skip the arithmetic tossups.

Matt is correct; naqt.com is singularly uninformative about this. I'll ask R. about what kind of changes we should be making so hosts are aware that they can skip mathcomp to suit their tournament fields.

[chatt_r]

Math comp shall be omitted from the tournament.
Also, in response to an earlier comment, scores should be up soon after the tournament. Bearing computer malfunction, they will be posted at latest by the evening of the 12th. And yes, we will have a ridiculous number of rounds. No pain, no gain.
RotP should be a PACE nationals qualifier, and I am currently discussing with Mr. Morlan.

FIELD UPDATE:
Registered:
"Hill Valley High School" AKA Blake 1 team
Expressing interest:
Whitman 1+ teams
Caesar Rodney 2ish teams
Georgetown Day 1-3 teams

As you can clearly see, we don't have a field yet.
SO REGISTER

[Self-incompatibility in plants]

And yes, we will have a ridiculous number of rounds. No pain, no gain.

Please don't get me wrong, I love to play quizbowl, but I can't help but to feel like this is going to make for a terribly long day. We are going to bring at least 2 teams, and all I can say is that I am going to feel really bad for our volunteer driver, because I know they are not going to want to stay that long. My dad could possibly drive one of our teams, and he is being reluctant to do so because I had to tell him how long this day is going to be. When you say, "no pain, no gain", I hope you realize that that applies to more people than just quizbowlers...

[Prof.Whoopie]

And yes, we will have a ridiculous number of rounds. No pain, no gain.

Please don't get me wrong, I love to play quizbowl, but I can't help but to feel like this is going to make for a terribly long day. We are going to bring at least 2 teams, and all I can say is that I am going to feel really bad for our volunteer driver, because I know they are not going to want to stay that long. My dad could possibly drive one of our teams, and he is being reluctant to do so because I had to tell him how long this day is going to be. When you say, "no pain, no gain", I hope you realize that that applies to more people than just quizbowlers...

Additionally, while the DC area has tons of good teams who love playing tons of good quizbowl, it also has plenty of crappy teams who just want to take their six rounds and leave during lunch with a 1-5 record. You can't really force these people to stay; they're going to leave early. They always do. It would be quite unfortunate to have a delicately balanced schedule guaranteeing everyone thirteen games wrecked by the teams that are inevitably not going to stay. After previous RM scheduling disasters, it might be better to have a slightly more modest goal.

[Doink the Clown]

Whitman will register once school starts and we have an idea how many teams we will bring. Also how many rounds is a ridculous number? 11? 14? 20?

[Wurzel-Flummery]

And yes, we will have a ridiculous number of rounds. No pain, no gain.

Please don't get me wrong, I love to play quizbowl, but I can't help but to feel like this is going to make for a terribly long day. We are going to bring at least 2 teams, and all I can say is that I am going to feel really bad for our volunteer driver, because I know they are not going to want to stay that long. My dad could possibly drive one of our teams, and he is being reluctant to do so because I had to tell him how long this day is going to be. When you say, "no pain, no gain", I hope you realize that that applies to more people than just quizbowlers...

Additionally, while the DC area has tons of good teams who love playing tons of good quizbowl, it also has plenty of crappy teams who just want to take their six rounds and leave during lunch with a 1-5 record. You can't really force these people to stay; they're going to leave early. They always do. It would be quite unfortunate to have a delicately balanced schedule guaranteeing everyone thirteen games wrecked by the teams that are inevitably not going to stay. After previous RM scheduling disasters, it might be better to have a slightly more modest goal.

We're not making teams play all 12 (or however many we end up having) rounds. Apathetic ones can leave after prelim bracket. Last tournament's mistakes came from an awful bracketing system. Our tournament won't be as long as last year's.

[Doink the Clown]

Will you have contingency schedules for different numbers of teams staying for the afternoon?

[Cernel Joson]

Will you have contingency schedules for different numbers of teams staying for the afternoon?

This is definitely important. We don't need to remind you guys that there are people coming in from Delaware: what exactly is your plan if people leave and you end up having to rebracket, say, 21 teams?

In fact, could the bracketing system be posted relatively soon?

[chatt_r]

We aren't planning on making a bracket until we know how many teams we have coming (At the moment, we have 1 team registered).
Also, part of the bracket is the number of rounds. After reading the complaints and crunching some numbers, I realized/realize that 14 rounds might get a little long, so if we cut it down, the bracket changes.
Even if we don't cut it down, we need to know how many teams we will have.
The rounds and general scheduling are things we want to talk to our coach/ the school about, so they are things that would be much easier to determine come school (next week).
Thanks for your patience, and I'll have a bracket/scheduling info/ updated field up ASAP.

[Cernel Joson]

We aren't planning on making a bracket until we know how many teams we have coming (At the moment, we have 1 team registered).
Also, part of the bracket is the number of rounds. After reading the complaints and crunching some numbers, I realized/realize that 14 rounds might get a little long, so if we cut it down, the bracket changes.
Even if we don't cut it down, we need to know how many teams we will have.
The rounds and general scheduling are things we want to talk to our coach/ the school about, so they are things that would be much easier to determine come school (next week).
Thanks for your patience, and I'll have a bracket/scheduling info/ updated field up ASAP.

Sounds good. Since no one's said it in a while, thanks for listening to our concerns and suggestions, Raj.

[Ronnie the Bear]

RotP should be a PACE nationals qualifier, and I am currently discussing with Mr. Morlan.

Hey Raj,

If you sent me an email regarding this, I didn't receive it. Just an FYI.

[Carangoides ciliarius]

We aren't planning on making a bracket until we know how many teams we have coming (At the moment, we have 1 team registered).

You should have more; i sent you an e-mail. Did you get it? Is there another address i was supposed to send to instead?

[Carangoides ciliarius]

How is this going, guys?

Do we have a field update? I hope that a fair amount of teams are going to this, i feel like the interest level should be way way higher.

[Carangoides ciliarius]

Additionally, could one of you guys provide some better details about the tournament proceedings? What time is the opening meeting? When do you see games starting? Lunch? When will playoffs be finished? Finals? How many games did you finally decide to cram into the day?

I'll have a parent driving in another car, so i have someone else that needs this info in a timely manner.

[lagazzaladra]

TJ will be bringing at least two teams to this, but since we haven't actually started school yet, I'm not sure how many other people can come.

[Cernel Joson]

St. Anselm's will be bringing at least one team. Could we get a field update?

[Isaacbh]

Yeah, I'd really like to know what time we need to leave.

[chatt_r]

FIELD UPDATE (edited):
HIll valley HS (Issac's crew)
Caesar Rodney (2 teams, potentially a third to follow)
Gonzaga
St Anslems
Whitman (2)
Churchill (1)
Hammond
Thomas Jefferson (2, potentially a third to follow)
Expressing interest:
Blair (3)
Georgetown Day (2-3)


The current bracket system is designed with 32 teams in mind; we aren't sure if we're going to have 32 teams, but this is what we would do if we had that:
1. 4 groups of 8 teams, round robin
2. Top 4 teams from each bracket will be redistributed into 4 groups of 4, 3-game round robin (In case of a "circle of death" situation, statistical tiebreakers will be used)
3. Top team from each bracket will proceed to the semi-finals
4. Winners of semis go to finals for 1st and 2nd place, losers go to 3rd-4th place game
There will be a consolation bracket for the teams that are eliminated at step 1. This could either be a 4 team round robin or single elimination playoffs, but you are guaranteed at least 3 games. All teams are guaranteed at least 10 games, and the finalists will play 12 games.
Registration is from 8:15-8:50, and the rules meeting will be 8:50-9 (registration and the meeting are in the same place).
First round starts at 9. While we are no longer using timers, we plan to cap every game at 30 minutes. This should be more than enough time for any game to finish, so we're just putting it down as a precaution, and don't expect a need to enforce it.
9 AM+ 7*30 (after the pre-lim games) means lunch begins at 12:30, so we're just using that as the time. If we get to lunch earlier we'll just make lunch a little longer and probably move the 8th round start time up as well.
Lunch: 12:30-1:45
8th round begins by 2 o clock.
The tournament should be over for finalists by 4:30 at the latest.

Again, this will change if we do not get 32 teams, and I'll confirm the exact bracket by next Thursday night.
If there are any questions/comments/grievances with the bracketing/times/rounds please let me know.
As always, we are open to suggestions.

[DumbJaques]

It sort of defeats the purpose of having all those round robins if you switch to single elimination for the most meaningful games. As you have it set up, it seems like the only thing your first re-bracketing does is allow the top 4 teams to have some games against different 5-8 teams. So, that's not particular worthwhile, and it's going to come down to just the final two games among the top 4 with very little else being relevant. This format is just more complicated than single elimination but yields the same result.

Even counting all the expressed interest/possible teams (which never tends to be fully realized), you're still at like 19 - I would say you're quite unlikely to have 13 registrations in the next four or five days, so you probably won't be hitting 32 anyway.

While we are no longer using timers, we plan to cap every game at 30 minutes. This should be more than enough time for any game to finish, so we're just putting it down as a precaution, and don't expect a need to enforce it.

This is just sort of silly. Are you honestly going to cut off a game at thirty minutes, regardless of the situation? What if a room gets off to a slightly late start? What if you don't have 16 readers who can get through 20/20 in 30 minutes? If it's tossup 18 and the score is 200-205, and the TD walks in to announce that the match is being automatically resolved for time, this event will be a joke. Seriously, there are lots of people here who could help you out - I have an email from you in my inbox accepting my offer to provide advice on your tournament format as soon as you send me a preview, but - surprise - this never happened. I certainly would be happy to do so, or you could ask one of the many people who are much better at that stuff than I am. It's really a shame that a great circuit event is suffering for no discernible reason - you guys are obviously more than competent and capable of running a great tournament, so hopefully you'll get things ironed out by next weekend.

[Carangoides ciliarius]

FIELD UPDATE (edited):
Caesar Rodney (2 teams, potentially a third to follow)

Take that hypothetical third out, we're just bringing two now. Thanks.

[Carangoides ciliarius]

While we are no longer using timers, we plan to cap every game at 30 minutes. This should be more than enough time for any game to finish, so we're just putting it down as a precaution, and don't expect a need to enforce it.

Uhhh.... please don't do this. If you notice certain rooms slow in the morning, give that moderator until lunch to speed things up, then talk to him/her about strategies to improve the pace of their games (shut teams up who are talking, make sure they are counting to exactly five seconds and not extending any time rules, taking score quickly and efficiently, attempting to quicken the pace of reading, etc.). Don't penalize a team just because their games are taking 35 minutes to complete. Remember that the B teams here will be decent but not that great, and their matches may require moderators to read almost all questions in their entirety which will then be answered... so the hypothetical "longest game" will happen, with just about every tossup answered but rarely before FTP, and every bonus needing the full five second conferring time.

[Gerrardfo]

Any word on:

As far as moderators go:
Thank you for those who volunteered. Until school starts we can't really say if we need "outside" moderators, but if we do you will surely be contacted.

?

[Ronnie the Bear]

How are you all doing on staffers? The sooner you can work out getting experienced readers, the better.

[David Riley]

If I might kibbitz.....

While Andrew's point about B teams is well taken, Fred has a point. It's been my experience that when a room drags, it is 99% of the time a slow or inexperienced reader, not inexperienced teams waiting till the end of questions. If you have even one slow reader, I wouldn't time the matches. Just my two cents.

[t-bar]

If I might kibbitz.....

While Andrew's point about B teams is well taken, Fred has a point. It's been my experience that when a room drags, it is 99% of the time a slow or inexperienced reader, not inexperienced teams waiting till the end of questions. If you have even one slow reader, I wouldn't time the matches. Just my two cents.

I can't agree with this more. Inexperienced readers can ruin an otherwise excellent quizbowl tournament, and I can imagine it would be even more so in a timed situation.

[Frater Taciturnus]

slow readers and clocks are how you get 14/15 TU games. Nobody wants that.

[Carangoides ciliarius]

How are you all doing on staffers? The sooner you can work out getting experienced readers, the better.

I've already volunteered to read (as i do for almost every tournament we attend), and i'm sure lots of other coaches will have no problem doing so as well. At least, i hope. Anything to help make this more efficient.

[Wurzel-Flummery]

Few quick notes as we get closer to the tournament:
1) If you haven't registered already, we ask that you do so by early afternoon Thursday so we can know how many teams we will be having so we can formulate brackets.
2) If you have buzzers, bring as many as you can.
3) As far as readers are concerned: It looks like we'll have enough readers when you add up the good readers from our school and those who have already expressed interest. If you are a coach or parent and wish to read, we probably won't need you, but talk to us anyway just prior to or the day of the tournament. People from other places don't need to go out of their way to read for us.
4) We have decided against using a time cap, as we have confidence that few, if any, games will be longer than 30 minutes. We don't want to have one or two games be one tossup shorter then the rest out of fairness to the teams involved.
5) Get stoked for a great tournament.

[Prof.Whoopie]

Can we get a field/format/bracketing strategy update?

[Self-incompatibility in plants]

Can we get a field/format/bracketing strategy update?

Please and thank you.

[Wurzel-Flummery]

Field:
HIll valley HS (Isaac's crew)
Caesar Rodney (2)
Gonzaga
St Anslems
Whitman (2)
Churchill (1)
Hammond
Thomas Jefferson (2, potentially a third to follow)
Blair (1)
Expressing interest:
Georgetown Day (2-3)

As far as formatting and bracketing: The strategy will be basically the same except scaled down to the number of teams we will have. We don't plan on posting a bracket until we have a solid number of teams (probably Thursday evening).

[Carangoides ciliarius]

There are only 12-15 teams registered/announced interest to this? Hm. Well i guess the same thing happened last year at an early RM tournament (that we didn't end up going to), but i would have liked to see more teams here.

[wexs883198215]

WJ is sort of interested, but availability of players is sketchy.

EDIT: Apparently I've been told we're in.

[Crazy Andy Watkins]

Field:
HIll valley HS (Isaac's crew)
Caesar Rodney (2)
Gonzaga
St Anslems
Whitman (2)
Churchill (1)
Hammond
Thomas Jefferson (2, potentially a third to follow)
Blair (1)
Expressing interest:
Georgetown Day (2-3)

As far as formatting and bracketing: The strategy will be basically the same except scaled down to the number of teams we will have. We don't plan on posting a bracket until we have a solid number of teams (probably Thursday evening).

I wouldn't quite do the same strategy scaled down. If you get sixteen, then do two brackets of eight into two brackets of eight, which play cross-bracket games, for eleven rounds of play, then finals, retaining a packet for screwups and a packet for tiebreakers.

This also ensures that the tournament won't go so long that you'll have to resort to a wacky thirty minute cutoff to end games in time.

[Wurzel-Flummery]

As far as formatting and bracketing: The strategy will be basically the same except scaled down to the number of teams we will have. We don't plan on posting a bracket until we have a solid number of teams (probably Thursday evening).

I wouldn't quite do the same strategy scaled down. If you get sixteen, then do two brackets of eight into two brackets of eight, which play cross-bracket games, for eleven rounds of play, then finals, retaining a packet for screwups and a packet for tiebreakers.

This also ensures that the tournament won't go so long that you'll have to resort to a wacky thirty minute cutoff to end games in time.

I see your point. I poorly worded what I said about brackets, as we have not actually discussed them since our original bracket was posted. We will discuss at practice tomorrow and get back to you guys.