NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6/12)

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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby Great Bustard » Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:50 pm

AZQuizbowl wrote:
Unicolored Jay wrote:
AZQuizbowl wrote:
Great Bustard wrote: IHBB Asian Championships (which included to the best of my knowledge, the largest ever pyramidal all-subject quiz bowl tournament outside North America on Friday, our Academic Bowl of Asia in which 23 teams competed).


To the best of my knowledge, the previous record is 14 teams at the 2015 Concordia Shanghai Invitational, which featured teams from China, Singapore, Hong Kong, and the Philippines.

IHBB's Academic Bowl featured 23 teams from Japan, Hong Kong, Korea, China, Singapore, and Thailand.

It would be nice to see these teams' participation translate to HSNCT.


Asian teams do attend HSNCT/NSC from time to time - for example, Singapore American sent two teams to NSC this year, with their A team finishing 16th, and they and Shanghai American Puxi also attended in the previous year. I'm pretty sure at least Shanghai has attended HSNCT in the past, too.


Certainly, though I'm hoping that since we're seeing growth overseas with whatever strange format IHBB is using, we will also see it translate to increased participation at PACE, HSNCT, and even MSNCT (seeing as how [edit: almost half] of these 23 teams are actually middle school teams).


This thread should be split at this point, since this is now off the original topic (I'm happy to continue the IHBB/International Academic Bowl discussion elsewhere), but the format in question we used was identical to the format used at USABB Academic Bowl Nationals which teams both there and in Asia seemed to enjoy as a cross between NHBB 4 quarter format and 20/20. The main features of it are 7 tossup/three-part bonus cycles to start, with the broad topic of the bonus related to the tossup, bounceback bonuses, two part power (20-10), and no neg points. The middle part are 60 second rounds, the same way NHBB does them, but with 4 choices - one each from lit, sci, history/geo, and fine arts/RMP. The third part is identical to the first.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby AZQuizbowl » Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:46 pm

Great Bustard wrote:
AZQuizbowl wrote:
Unicolored Jay wrote:
AZQuizbowl wrote:
Great Bustard wrote: IHBB Asian Championships (which included to the best of my knowledge, the largest ever pyramidal all-subject quiz bowl tournament outside North America on Friday, our Academic Bowl of Asia in which 23 teams competed).


To the best of my knowledge, the previous record is 14 teams at the 2015 Concordia Shanghai Invitational, which featured teams from China, Singapore, Hong Kong, and the Philippines.

IHBB's Academic Bowl featured 23 teams from Japan, Hong Kong, Korea, China, Singapore, and Thailand.

It would be nice to see these teams' participation translate to HSNCT.


Asian teams do attend HSNCT/NSC from time to time - for example, Singapore American sent two teams to NSC this year, with their A team finishing 16th, and they and Shanghai American Puxi also attended in the previous year. I'm pretty sure at least Shanghai has attended HSNCT in the past, too.


Certainly, though I'm hoping that since we're seeing growth overseas with whatever strange format IHBB is using, we will also see it translate to increased participation at PACE, HSNCT, and even MSNCT (seeing as how [edit: almost half] of these 23 teams are actually middle school teams).


This thread should be split at this point, since this is now off the original topic (I'm happy to continue the IHBB/International Academic Bowl discussion elsewhere), but the format in question we used was identical to the format used at USABB Academic Bowl Nationals which teams both there and in Asia seemed to enjoy as a cross between NHBB 4 quarter format and 20/20. The main features of it are 7 tossup/three-part bonus cycles to start, with the broad topic of the bonus related to the tossup, bounceback bonuses, two part power (20-10), and no neg points. The middle part are 60 second rounds, the same way NHBB does them, but with 4 choices - one each from lit, sci, history/geo, and fine arts/RMP. The third part is identical to the first.


Way to dodge the rest of the posts on here. The thread is only off topic because you brought up your new record in the first place.

Since the EMS division still uses the NHBB name, how are you going to respond to what happened regarding the Bowl at EMS Nats? You can't simultaneously wash your hands of it/blame it all on ACE and then also get yourself involved by calling one of THEIR upset customers. The fact is that, whether ACE runs the division or not, it still uses the NHBB name and, as such, you should probably be sure you have more of a say in what goes on. Because no matter how much you post on the forums about how you have nothing to do with it, all the people at EMS nationals see the NHBB name attached AND the high school website that specifically states that NHBB organizes and oversees the EMS Bee and Bowl. If this trend of ACE-run-NHBB-tournaments going off the rails continues, how will that bode for the rest of the community? We will have a number of elementary and middle school students whose experiences with buzzer-based academic competition are negative, and they won't join the high school NHBB, they won't participate in NAQT, etc. ACE and NHBB both need to take responsibility for the unfairness that happened here to children. Otherwise it doesn't really matter how large the overseas tournaments are or how many more competitions you decide to start running. If you can't get the one specific part of your company that you've been running the longest right, then why would anyone trust the NHBB name?
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby Everything in the Whole Wide World » Mon Jun 13, 2016 7:49 pm

I think the total lack of response to these charges by ACE leadership, despite this thread being active for several days, is almost as damning as the actual rules decision and how it was handled. If ACE wishes to remain in good standing within the regular quizbowl community, there needs to be some accountability and explanation as to 1) why in the world this rule was adopted 2) on such short notice, and 3) how the real people affected by this will be compensated or otherwise apologized to. There are serious doubts being introduced by this incident; the first step to moving forward is an acknowledgment.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby Banned Tiny Toon Adventures Episode » Mon Jun 13, 2016 8:14 pm

Yo in defense of ACE this event ended yesterday and they presumably had travel n stuff
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby heterodyne » Mon Jun 13, 2016 8:16 pm

I'd presume you'd want the people running the tournament to be, you know, running the tournament instead of responding to this thread.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby the return of AHAN » Mon Jun 13, 2016 8:51 pm

Beatlefan11 wrote:I think the total lack of response to these charges by ACE leadership, despite this thread being active for several days, is almost as damning as the actual rules decision and how it was handled. If ACE wishes to remain in good standing within the regular quizbowl community, there needs to be some accountability and explanation as to 1) why in the world this rule was adopted 2) on such short notice, and 3) how the real people affected by this will be compensated or otherwise apologized to. There are serious doubts being introduced by this incident; the first step to moving forward is an acknowledgment.


Right. I'd like to give ACE ample time to respond before I begin with my own criticisms, which I intend to be constructive, particularly given that now they'll be transitioning to running camps, starting tomorrow in Missouri, and then next Sunday in Lincoln, IL. I'm sure they need to get confirmation e-mails out to all of their campers, run off copies, and whatever else goes into running a successful camp.
But when it was all said and done, they did manage to crown champions and hand out awards for every category they said they would, all while largely sticking to the published timetable.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby jonpin » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:32 pm

heterodyne wrote:I'd presume you'd want the people running the tournament to be, you know, running the tournament instead of responding to this thread.


I can understand how some have that viewpoint, but if you look at the thread for any legitimate multi-day national championship (anything NAQT, NSC, ACF, NHBB-HS, NASAT), there is ALWAYS someone from the relevant organization in the thread posting updates, at worst in the evenings. The only reason not to provide any updates is if they consider this event so far afield of "quiz bowl" as to not be worth discussing here.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby the return of AHAN » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:43 pm

jonpin wrote: The only reason not to provide any updates is if they consider this event so far afield of "quiz bowl" as to not be worth discussing here.

And yet here we are, in the History Bee & Bowl Events subforum discussing exactly that...

EDIT: Oh, and there's this thread from last year, posted by the organizers.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby Benin Rebirth Party » Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:31 am

Based on what I can see from the online stuff, it seemed each student played five rounds during one out of four possible bee timeslots and each team played every alternating bowl rounds. Was this due to a shortage of rooms, staffers or both? There's a lot of space at the HRO/Convention Centre!

Bubalus Period wrote:Yo in defense of ACE this event ended yesterday and they presumably had travel n stuff


I mean a lot of the times you see someone post like "X won, Y came second, full deets later when I get home" as soon as a tournament finishes. No ACE official seemed to have even indicated the results of this tournament here or their own site.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby AZQuizbowl » Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:25 am

the return of AHAN wrote:
jonpin wrote: The only reason not to provide any updates is if they consider this event so far afield of "quiz bowl" as to not be worth discussing here.

And yet here we are, in the History Bee & Bowl Events subforum discussing exactly that...

EDIT: Oh, and there's this thread from last year, posted by the organizers.


Too bad I didn't stick around another year to personally get any use out of that thread. Such is life. :(

I will say that it seems neither Eric nor Nick have been particularly chatty in the forums in regards to the EMS NHBB to my knowledge, and it's probably not the first thing on their minds like it is for many of us at other nationals events.I'm sure one or both will respond in due time, though I hope it's sooner rather than later.

I feel like the EMS Bowl under ACE's leadership (and by ACE, I mean Eric and Nick specifically, even prior to this year) has been distanced from the rest of quizbowl. Whether that has been intentional or just a casualty of the way they do things/their focus on the Bee I don't know. But while the term "all-buzz" is catchy, it is distinctly different than the rest of the community's tossups, and it is obviously not the only thing.

On another note, were there any regional EMS Bowls run this year?

While I wouldn't fault Eric and Nick for wanting to focus on their Bee, which is something they've done historically well, I wish we had answers to questions like "why doesn't this more closely resemble quizbowl and even HS NHBB?"
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby the return of AHAN » Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:01 am

AZQuizbowl wrote:On another note, were there any regional EMS Bowls run this year?

No. Or at least, not that I'm aware of. I hosted the Chicago North Regional Finals of History Bee, and it was done on a Monday night, which pretty well eliminates the possibility of including a bowl. I never saw a bowl offered anywhere, but I did receive an e-mail on June 6th offering,
" If your team is interested, we would be happy for you to make use of the Regional Bowl. The Regional Bowl contains five question packets of social studies content in the exact format as the National Championship. These events are great to prepare your team for the format and question difficulty of the National Championship! In order to receive the questions, you only need to submit a completed Regionals Form (found HERE) and we will promptly email you the questions."

This makes me believe there were plans in place to organize regional History Bowls that just never got off the ground.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby AZQuizbowl » Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:20 pm

the return of AHAN wrote:
AZQuizbowl wrote:On another note, were there any regional EMS Bowls run this year?

No. Or at least, not that I'm aware of. I hosted the Chicago North Regional Finals of History Bee, and it was done on a Monday night, which pretty well eliminates the possibility of including a bowl. I never saw a bowl offered anywhere, but I did receive an e-mail on June 6th offering,
" If your team is interested, we would be happy for you to make use of the Regional Bowl. The Regional Bowl contains five question packets of social studies content in the exact format as the National Championship. These events are great to prepare your team for the format and question difficulty of the National Championship! In order to receive the questions, you only need to submit a completed Regionals Form (found HERE) and we will promptly email you the questions."

This makes me believe there were plans in place to organize regional History Bowls that just never got off the ground.


Last year we (when I worked for the company) ran them alongside Saturday Bees in certain places, ran then as a division at some high school tournaments, and ran a few standalone tournaments. I imagine that Eric and Nick did not have an extra person to organize these like I did last year, so that could be why the casualty
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby Haaaaaaaarry Whiiiiiiiiiite » Thu Jun 16, 2016 2:43 pm

heterodyne wrote:I'd presume you'd want the people running the tournament to be, you know, running the tournament instead of responding to this thread.

It has now been a full week since the incident in question. ACE has more than enough time to provide a response.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby the return of AHAN » Thu Jun 16, 2016 2:46 pm

Not when they're running camps (I'm patiently awaiting confirmation of my son's registration for this Sunday's camp in Lincoln, IL).
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby Sima Guang Hater » Thu Jun 16, 2016 3:25 pm

To clarify my previous reaction to this:

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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby jonpin » Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:58 pm

the return of AHAN wrote:Not when they're running camps (I'm patiently awaiting confirmation of my son's registration for this Sunday's camp in Lincoln, IL).


Yeah... taking on the responsibility to do a whole bunch of things doesn't mean you can use the excuse "I couldn't do that thing well because I had so many other things I had to do also."
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby AKKOLADE » Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:56 pm

the return of AHAN wrote:Not when they're running camps (I'm patiently awaiting confirmation of my son's registration for this Sunday's camp in Lincoln, IL).

It's almost like the internet is accessible in many places.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby Banned Tiny Toon Adventures Episode » Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:09 pm

AKKOLADE wrote:
the return of AHAN wrote:Not when they're running camps (I'm patiently awaiting confirmation of my son's registration for this Sunday's camp in Lincoln, IL).

It's almost like the internet is accessible in many places.

Oh Lincoln IL tho
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby AKKOLADE » Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:16 pm

with three college and two prisons, something's being downloaded there
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby AZQuizbowl » Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:55 pm

jonpin wrote:
the return of AHAN wrote:Not when they're running camps (I'm patiently awaiting confirmation of my son's registration for this Sunday's camp in Lincoln, IL).


Yeah... taking on the responsibility to do a whole bunch of things doesn't mean you can use the excuse "I couldn't do that thing well because I had so many other things I had to do also."


Isn't your quote the motto of certain quizbowl-type enterprises?
"I couldn't do that thing well because I had so many other things I had to do also."
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby Marble-faced Bristle Tyrant » Sun Jun 19, 2016 1:13 pm

I am not going to lie, I have spent over a week compulsively checking the new posts page to see if this thread has updated with the explanations we've all been waiting for.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby RexSueciae » Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:01 pm

Megachile ambigua wrote:
heterodyne wrote:I'd presume you'd want the people running the tournament to be, you know, running the tournament instead of responding to this thread.

It has now been a full week since the incident in question. ACE has more than enough time to provide a response.


We've passed the two-week mark with no official response and I'm not surprised, given the track record of all involved parties. (Does NHBB or ACE have any designated public liaison position?)

Since the Chicago event, meanwhile, NHBB itself has 1) laid claims to dates of regional tournaments; and 2) announced the "National Quiz Bowl Awards".
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby AZQuizbowl » Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:41 am

RexSueciae wrote:
Megachile ambigua wrote:
heterodyne wrote:I'd presume you'd want the people running the tournament to be, you know, running the tournament instead of responding to this thread.

It has now been a full week since the incident in question. ACE has more than enough time to provide a response.


We've passed the two-week mark with no official response and I'm not surprised, given the track record of all involved parties. (Does NHBB or ACE have any designated public liaison position?)

Since the Chicago event, meanwhile, NHBB itself has 1) laid claims to dates of regional tournaments; and 2) announced the "National Quiz Bowl Awards".


The only thing the NHBB staff has agreed upon regarding public liaison is that Dave should not do it. [Edit: as of when I was there] But yeah, Dave is probably in charge of that.

TBH if I had a contract with a company that made my company look bad I'd be pretty pissed and would have done something about it by now.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby Great Bustard » Sat Jun 25, 2016 1:51 am

AZQuizbowl wrote:The only thing the NHBB staff has agreed upon regarding public liaison is that Dave should not do it. [Edit: as of when I was there] But yeah, Dave is probably in charge of that.

This was not true when you worked for NHBB either; I have always communicated on NHBB events/policies/messaging if needed. Please see my comments in the National Quiz Bowl Awards thread as to why I am not commenting on middle school Nationals. ACE is, as mentioned there, welcome to comment if they wish on any aspects of the elementary and middle school divisions of the National History Bee and the National History Bowl, including any decision they made regarding the recent National Championships they oversaw.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby Nick » Tue Jun 28, 2016 9:08 pm

Results

Results were displayed during the event throughout the competition hotel and online at historybee.com/live. All champions were also recognized at the Awards Ceremony on Sunday. Congrats to our Champions!

ACE organized over 1200 separate competitors in three grade divisions through four days of good quality social studies questions (mostly of the tossup variety) across seven competitions, and we were never more than 15-20 minutes off schedule (and that only happened a few rounds, a few times). As mentioned – the three #1 seeds in the National History Bee all ended up as their respective Division Champion. We believe the overwhelming majority of participants enjoyed their trip to Chicago, felt that the event was generally a fair and worthwhile competition experience, and learned at least a little more history along the way.


Bowl Eligibility Incident

To disaggregate two issues:

(1) the eligibility restriction

Our explanation of the restriction can be found here.

(2) the communication of the restriction to teams.

ACE takes full responsibility for its poor communication with certain Bowl teams regarding the 3-person-minimum eligibility restriction for the National History Bowl, Middle School Division. We very much appreciate how damaging of an experience was brought about for one team in particular, Livermoor Valley Charter School, as a result of this error. Livermoor was indeed notified of the eligibility restriction prior to arriving in Chicago, but they were unaware of said rule until it was brought to their attention (and that of tournament officials) by an opposing team shortly after the competition had begun. As they only had two students in Chicago to participate, they were immediately barred from official competition (but offered to participate as an exhibition team) and refunded their registration fee.

In an effort to make amends with Livermoor, and as a gesture of apology and good will, ACE has determined the following:

1. Livermoor Valley Charter School’s registration fees for the 2016-2017 National History Bee and Bowl’s Middle School Division, if they decide to participate, will be waived.
2. ACE will reimburse Livermoor for some of the costs incurred on their trip to Chicago.
3. ACE will be reevaluating and upgrading how and what it communicates to all participants and potential participants going forward.
4. The two affected students on the Livermoor bowl team are permitted to participate in any relevant ACE activity free of charge for the rest of their lives.

We wanted to wait until our Directors could speak to the families personally before posting about the incident online. We take our role in the quizbowl community very seriously and we hope that these efforts demonstrate that seriousness. For those who’ve soured on ACE due to this incident, I hope you’ll reconsider your opinion in light of these points and our explanation of the rule. Even if you don’t find our reasons compelling, I hope you won’t doubt our intentions.


Feedback

If you have specific feedback about any aspect of the National History Bee and Bowl’s Middle School Division (good or bad, big or small), please don’t hesitate to email me (nick (a) aceqb.com).


p.s. Eric Mukherjee – you left out my brief, mediocre stint at Rutgers; have you forgotten? ;)
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby thomasgnd » Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:27 pm

More than 20 years ago, three men, JR Barry, Hodges Lewis, and Jim Garrick, for whom I have the utmost in respect, launched a small business called ACE. Their idea was to improve and enrich the experience of students who play quizbowl, no matter those students' home states or experience levels. The events they organized were rousing successes. I know because I attended them, as Jim Garrick was my coach.

Eric Huff and Nick Clusserath have remained loyal to the simple and admirable mission that ACE embarked upon at its beginning. More than that, their vision has made an already strong organization even stronger. The high quality of academic-competition opportunity that has long existed at ACE summer camps now extends to the middle- and elementary-school levels of the National History Bee, and it will mark the company's future endeavors as well.

I am pleased to say I have worked with ACE since 2004, and I intend to continue doing so as long as Eric and Nick, two folks I am glad to call my friends, will have me.

ACE makes mistakes. Everyone who ever organizes an event does. Many of the comments in this thread demonstrate a lack of understanding of that reality. They are petty and completely uncalled for. The condescending attitudes such comments betray are one of the major reasons quizbowl struggles to grow in the way we all claim to want to see. I can confidently state that one of the things that most appeals to me about my new status as a former quizbowl coach is not having to be on the receiving end of such mean-spiritedness.

If you want to be made aware of the good work ACE does, visit one of its events. You will leave impressed.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby Sima Guang Hater » Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:04 am

thomasgnd wrote:ACE makes mistakes. Everyone who ever organizes an event does. Many of the comments in this thread demonstrate a lack of understanding of that reality. They are petty and completely uncalled for. The condescending attitudes such comments betray are one of the major reasons quizbowl struggles to grow in the way we all claim to want to see. I can confidently state that one of the things that most appeals to me about my new status as a former quizbowl coach is not having to be on the receiving end of such mean-spiritedness.


Given Nick's explanations in the other thread(s), I am certainly convinced that he cares a great deal about spreading academic competition to the masses, and it's great that ACE will be making up for this error. I will respond to his points in kind in the other threads.

I'm quoting this snippet because I think it illustrates a particularly pernicious strain of tone-policing in quizbowl discourse. There's a huge difference between "mean-spiritedness" and passionate disagreement, and holding quizbowl discourse to first-grade levels of civility by confusing "mean-spiritedness" with passion just serves as a cover for less-than-optimal quizbowl practices. There is nothing in this thread that could be construed as mean-spirited or condescending; I only see strong disagreement, concern, and disappointment, which is completely justified given the circumstances. The only one being condescending in this thread, frankly, is you, by calling us "petty" and claiming we're inhibiting the growth of good quizbowl by...defending good quizbowl practices that don't unfairly disadvantage short-handed teams.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby AZQuizbowl » Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:13 am

Props to ACE for their solutions to make it up to the affected individuals. The professionalism shown in the solution is what we should all strive for.

I'm sure we all still have comments about the reason things happened and opinions as to why it shouldn't have, but I wanted to point out that even in the midst of all our passionate viewpoints, THIS is how a professional company responds to and resolves issues
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby AZQuizbowl » Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:03 pm

Great Bustard wrote:
AZQuizbowl wrote:The only thing the NHBB staff has agreed upon regarding public liaison is that Dave should not do it. [Edit: as of when I was there] But yeah, Dave is probably in charge of that.

This was not true when you worked for NHBB either; I have always communicated on NHBB events/policies/messaging if needed. Please see my comments in the National Quiz Bowl Awards thread as to why I am not commenting on middle school Nationals. ACE is, as mentioned there, welcome to comment if they wish on any aspects of the elementary and middle school divisions of the National History Bee and the National History Bowl, including any decision they made regarding the recent National Championships they oversaw.


You know what I meant. A number of your staff members and volunteers have, at numerous times, vehemently opposed you being in direct contact with the public given, for example, your propensity of being long-winded. It's just that you ignore most arguments that you don't outright agree with. Either that or you're just oblivious. Either way, thank you for the clarification on the lack of comment on EMS NHBB--I think a large number of us, yourself included, are adjusting to the massive change here.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby Great Bustard » Fri Jul 01, 2016 2:13 pm

AZQuizbowl wrote:
Great Bustard wrote:
AZQuizbowl wrote:The only thing the NHBB staff has agreed upon regarding public liaison is that Dave should not do it. [Edit: as of when I was there] But yeah, Dave is probably in charge of that.

This was not true when you worked for NHBB either; I have always communicated on NHBB events/policies/messaging if needed. Please see my comments in the National Quiz Bowl Awards thread as to why I am not commenting on middle school Nationals. ACE is, as mentioned there, welcome to comment if they wish on any aspects of the elementary and middle school divisions of the National History Bee and the National History Bowl, including any decision they made regarding the recent National Championships they oversaw.


You know what I meant. A number of your staff members and volunteers have, at numerous times, vehemently opposed you being in direct contact with the public given, for example, your propensity of being long-winded. It's just that you ignore most arguments that you don't outright agree with. Either that or you're just oblivious. Either way, thank you for the clarification on the lack of comment on EMS NHBB--I think a large number of us, yourself included, are adjusting to the massive change here.


No, I didn't know what you meant - your comment was incoherent, since there are all sorts of reasons for me to need to be in direct contact with the public. If what you meant to say was that in a perfect world, someone else could speak for NHBB on the forums and in other ways engage with the public (say, through responding to basic emails) more frequently than me, then that's a comment I'd agree with. Ultimately, more is delegated each year (for example, Marshall Mullins will be handling buzzer tracking and awards orders, among other things, for this coming year as our new Director of Logistics) but for the time being, and this has always been true, I will need to comment and clarify on any number of topics. And there's nothing particularly wrong with that, especially since in contrast with PACE, NAQT, or ACF, NHBB is not a partnership or an organization run primarily on a committee basis. Having someone else speak for NHBB would for now at a minimum mean I'd need to look over much of what they'd say in advance, unless I were to give up day to day control over the entirety of a division (as I have in the instance of the elementary and middle school side of things) or of NHBB as a whole. Ultimately that may happen farther down the road, but that's not happening for the foreseeable future.
You're also greatly mistaken about my willingness to engage with people who disagree with me - again, see every post-Nationals thread and literally hundreds of other posts. That said, in the end, there have been all sorts of criticisms over the years of NHBB that I simply don't agree with, even if I hear out the arguments. But that hardly makes me oblivious, and the continued overall success of NHBB in every meaningful way one wishes to define it doesn't call for a general change of course here.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby AKKOLADE » Fri Jul 01, 2016 5:25 pm

Nick wrote:1. Livermoor Valley Charter School’s registration fees for the 2016-2017 National History Bee and Bowl’s Middle School Division, if they decide to participate, will be waived.
2. ACE will reimburse Livermoor for some of the costs incurred on their trip to Chicago.
3. ACE will be reevaluating and upgrading how and what it communicates to all participants and potential participants going forward.
4. The two affected students on the Livermoor bowl team are permitted to participate in any relevant ACE activity free of charge for the rest of their lives.

We wanted to wait until our Directors could speak to the families personally before posting about the incident online. We take our role in the quizbowl community very seriously and we hope that these efforts demonstrate that seriousness. For those who’ve soured on ACE due to this incident, I hope you’ll reconsider your opinion in light of these points and our explanation of the rule. Even if you don’t find our reasons compelling, I hope you won’t doubt our intentions.

I'm glad to see these steps have been taken.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby AZQuizbowl » Sun Jul 03, 2016 1:03 am

Great Bustard wrote:
AZQuizbowl wrote:
Great Bustard wrote:
AZQuizbowl wrote:The only thing the NHBB staff has agreed upon regarding public liaison is that Dave should not do it. [Edit: as of when I was there] But yeah, Dave is probably in charge of that.

This was not true when you worked for NHBB either; I have always communicated on NHBB events/policies/messaging if needed. Please see my comments in the National Quiz Bowl Awards thread as to why I am not commenting on middle school Nationals. ACE is, as mentioned there, welcome to comment if they wish on any aspects of the elementary and middle school divisions of the National History Bee and the National History Bowl, including any decision they made regarding the recent National Championships they oversaw.


You know what I meant. A number of your staff members and volunteers have, at numerous times, vehemently opposed you being in direct contact with the public given, for example, your propensity of being long-winded. It's just that you ignore most arguments that you don't outright agree with. Either that or you're just oblivious. Either way, thank you for the clarification on the lack of comment on EMS NHBB--I think a large number of us, yourself included, are adjusting to the massive change here.


No, I didn't know what you meant - your comment was incoherent, since there are all sorts of reasons for me to need to be in direct contact with the public. If what you meant to say was that in a perfect world, someone else could speak for NHBB on the forums and in other ways engage with the public (say, through responding to basic emails) more frequently than me, then that's a comment I'd agree with. Ultimately, more is delegated each year (for example, Marshall Mullins will be handling buzzer tracking and awards orders, among other things, for this coming year as our new Director of Logistics) but for the time being, and this has always been true, I will need to comment and clarify on any number of topics. And there's nothing particularly wrong with that, especially since in contrast with PACE, NAQT, or ACF, NHBB is not a partnership or an organization run primarily on a committee basis. Having someone else speak for NHBB would for now at a minimum mean I'd need to look over much of what they'd say in advance, unless I were to give up day to day control over the entirety of a division (as I have in the instance of the elementary and middle school side of things) or of NHBB as a whole. Ultimately that may happen farther down the road, but that's not happening for the foreseeable future.
You're also greatly mistaken about my willingness to engage with people who disagree with me - again, see every post-Nationals thread and literally hundreds of other posts. That said, in the end, there have been all sorts of criticisms over the years of NHBB that I simply don't agree with, even if I hear out the arguments. But that hardly makes me oblivious, and the continued overall success of NHBB in every meaningful way one wishes to define it doesn't call for a general change of course here.


You use the word "incoherent" a lot. My point is that most companies that oversee a lot of things have a specific public liason person who has extensive experience in interacting with the public on behalf of a company. They'd also be the people to make statements, announce things to the press (or in this case, the community), and help handle any publicity issues. I'm glad to see more things are being delegated each year, but that's not my point or concern here. People who do customer service on a regular basis know how to calm tempers, find solutions, explain themselves coherently on behalf of the company, and generally give the company a more professional feel. Others can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there are a number of ways you say things that are very offputting and make the quizbowl community generally suspicious of your intent, and it worries us. This is a community that people are extremely passionate about, and it's also a relatively small community in some terms. Some of the reasons I imagine PACE and NAQT have committees is to have other people offer different view points, and then take a vote on what would be best for the company or community. I think a lot of us feel like NHBB is the "David Madden Show, feat New Events Each Year!" despite having good quality questions and reasonably well-run events. While you take some ideas to heart, a lot of the core ideas that the quizbowl community consider good are ones that you don't consider as important. For instance, you seem more into expansion (IHBB, USABB, USGO, IHO, etc) than working to perfect what you have. Now, expansion isn't necessarily a bad thing, but you're the one that heads up everything (except EMS). While you should have a reasonable say in the things that happen within your company, when people are unchecked by peers often things can go awry. I think the community here is imploring you to be a part of it, and not just being that uncle that people tolerate because he's not that bad, but that they'd rather not chill with at the wedding party. I think that many members of the community have soured on you for numerous reasons, and that you may find more success in having someone else post for you.

Others, feel free to chime in here and tell me if I'm off base with what I've been gathering from the many comments on NHBB, or feel free to clarify your personal feelings about this. I think that while NHBB is certainly on the edge of good quizbowl, it isn't what the rest of us would consider on par with the likes of NAQT and PACE.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby the return of AHAN » Sun Jul 03, 2016 12:36 pm

My main complaint was regarding the History Bowl at MS NHBB. Let's set aside, for a moment, the scheduling wherein we played 5 matches and had 5 byes (1:30ish to 9:15 PM). The matches themselves simply FLEW by, given the sum of answer lines for a particular match was 40, or half a typical quizbowl match, and we were done in 10-15 minutes each time. Given the $500 entry fee, I feel badly for teams that shipped off that amount of money for what was, in essence, 2.5 matches, relative to what we are used to. In the end, my team was eliminated in a great match, lasting all of 11 minutes, in the round of 16, so we got to play 3.5 matches; still not great value.
Another facet that disappointed me was the inability to sub in players at all during a match. This made it tricky to balance playing time between my two players vying for playing time in that 4th seat. This nonstandard rule, in combination with the official roster limit of FIVE, made for some dissatisfied kids, not the least of which was my youngest and 6th best player, who got sent home for the day after round 1.
Anyway, that's my two cents.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby Mcordero » Wed Jul 06, 2016 3:37 am

My son is participated in the National History Bee finals in Chicago (elemwhaley div.).

When he placed as a top Eight finalist at the Regionals, he was called up and received a medal. Although it was a blank medal that only says "History Bee", he found it appropriate enough because it accompanied an invitation to proceed on to the finals.

At the National Finals, we experienced three exciting & grueling days of competition.
I hoped this would be an experience to fuel his love of learning history, encouragement for studying hard, and if at all successful, that he would come away with some sort of recognition that would help to open doors of opportunity, such as an award or certificate showing his rank or placement in the competition. 

At National's, my son advanced to the championship rounds of the final 64, & I really believed this should merit some sort of certificate of recognition.
He didn't advance on to the final 16, which was disappointing for him, but that's not the problem.

At the end, he was directed to the info room/ help desk, where a worker reached into a pile & gave him another of the same generic medal from regionals, that only say "History Bee". The worker then handed him a certificate and I hoped and prayed it would at least state my son's level of rank or confirmation of national championship level. Instead, the certificate only stated thanks for "Participating in the History Fair". The workers then thanked him for coming and said goodbye.
It was so upsetting that it took the wind out of all of us.
We dared not show our disappointment in front of my son because we didn't want to make him feel worse. 

It feels as though all that hard work and very significant achievement has nothing to show for it or even legitimatize it.
There are one-day competitions out the where people get trophies or awards showing showing much prestige. And they open doors for their partipants.
But this competition, which took an entire school year and many qualifying levels, had nothing to show for it. Nothing to confirm what an achievement it really was.
Why is that?
I just really need Dave Madden, Eric Huff and ACE to know that those two generic, measly gratuitous objects were not even close to what the kids at that level should have come away with.

The Nationals Championship rounds level was hard earned and legitimately deserved to be given a true document of some sort recording the specific level of achievement of someone who reached the championship rounds of the nationals level of a history bee participated in by thousands nationwide. It deserved honor.
It would have been appropriate.
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby Adventure Temple Trail » Fri Jul 22, 2016 12:23 am

Great Bustard wrote:The format in question we used was identical to the format used at USABB Academic Bowl Nationals which teams both there and in Asia seemed to enjoy as a cross between NHBB 4 quarter format and 20/20. The main features of it are 7 tossup/three-part bonus cycles to start, with the broad topic of the bonus related to the tossup, bounceback bonuses, two part power (20-10), and no neg points. The middle part are 60 second rounds, the same way NHBB does them, but with 4 choices - one each from lit, sci, history/geo, and fine arts/RMP. The third part is identical to the first.


Cutting through the rest of this thread to say that this format change sounds like a really really good idea. Is there any thought about switching the high school History Bowl to this format wholesale? I imagine it would be MUCH easier on writers than the current setup; having only one kind of tossup (and fewer tossups total) saves a lot of effort compared to trying to edit three types of tossup to specifications with differing lengths, power-markings, and bonus attachments or lack thereof. What's more, experienced writers often write bonuses more quickly than tossups to boot. To me, this "three-quarter" format preserves the single important feature of the multi-quarter format which NHBB wants/needs to preserve non-negotiably (that being the lightning round, which allows weaker teams to stay competitive and rack up a lot of points mid-game), and would eliminate a tremendous amount of needless logistic headache on the part of writers, editors, and packet assemblers. (You could vary the length of the tossup/bonus quarters to as few as 6 and as many as 10 at various stages of Nationals too.) It'd also make it way easier for prospective teams and writers to cross over from all-subject quizbowl to History Bowl or vice versa, to the extent people still want that to be a thing that happens!
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby the return of AHAN » Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:03 am

Adventure Temple Trail wrote:
Great Bustard wrote:The format in question we used was identical to the format used at USABB Academic Bowl Nationals which teams both there and in Asia seemed to enjoy as a cross between NHBB 4 quarter format and 20/20. The main features of it are 7 tossup/three-part bonus cycles to start, with the broad topic of the bonus related to the tossup, bounceback bonuses, two part power (20-10), and no neg points. The middle part are 60 second rounds, the same way NHBB does them, but with 4 choices - one each from lit, sci, history/geo, and fine arts/RMP. The third part is identical to the first.


Cutting through the rest of this thread to say that this format change sounds like a really really good idea. Is there any thought about switching the high school History Bowl to this format wholesale? I imagine it would be MUCH easier on writers than the current setup; having only one kind of tossup (and fewer tossups total) saves a lot of effort compared to trying to edit three types of tossup to specifications with differing lengths, power-markings, and bonus attachments or lack thereof. What's more, experienced writers often write bonuses more quickly than tossups to boot. To me, this "three-quarter" format preserves the single important feature of the multi-quarter format which NHBB wants/needs to preserve non-negotiably (that being the lightning round, which allows weaker teams to stay competitive and rack up a lot of points mid-game), and would eliminate a tremendous amount of needless logistic headache on the part of writers, editors, and packet assemblers. (You could vary the length of the tossup/bonus quarters to as few as 6 and as many as 10 at various stages of Nationals too.) It'd also make it way easier for prospective teams and writers to cross over from all-subject quizbowl to History Bowl or vice versa, to the extent people still want that to be a thing that happens!


With all due respect, do you feel my complaints two posts upthread have no merit?
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Re: NHBB for Middle and Elementary Levels (Chicago, IL 6/9-6

Postby Adventure Temple Trail » Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:34 am

the return of AHAN wrote:
Adventure Temple Trail wrote:
Great Bustard wrote:The format in question we used was identical to the format used at USABB Academic Bowl Nationals which teams both there and in Asia seemed to enjoy as a cross between NHBB 4 quarter format and 20/20. The main features of it are 7 tossup/three-part bonus cycles to start, with the broad topic of the bonus related to the tossup, bounceback bonuses, two part power (20-10), and no neg points. The middle part are 60 second rounds, the same way NHBB does them, but with 4 choices - one each from lit, sci, history/geo, and fine arts/RMP. The third part is identical to the first.


Cutting through the rest of this thread to say that this format change sounds like a really really good idea. Is there any thought about switching the high school History Bowl to this format wholesale? I imagine it would be MUCH easier on writers than the current setup; having only one kind of tossup (and fewer tossups total) saves a lot of effort compared to trying to edit three types of tossup to specifications with differing lengths, power-markings, and bonus attachments or lack thereof. What's more, experienced writers often write bonuses more quickly than tossups to boot. To me, this "three-quarter" format preserves the single important feature of the multi-quarter format which NHBB wants/needs to preserve non-negotiably (that being the lightning round, which allows weaker teams to stay competitive and rack up a lot of points mid-game), and would eliminate a tremendous amount of needless logistic headache on the part of writers, editors, and packet assemblers. (You could vary the length of the tossup/bonus quarters to as few as 6 and as many as 10 at various stages of Nationals too.) It'd also make it way easier for prospective teams and writers to cross over from all-subject quizbowl to History Bowl or vice versa, to the extent people still want that to be a thing that happens!


With all due respect, do you feel my complaints two posts upthread have no merit?


They certainly seem to have plenty of merit! I'm just not sure how they are relevant to the argument I'm making to David here. Is your issue that this proposed format change would make the already-deficient number of matches at Middle School History Bowl shorter than they already are? (Note that I propose making this change at the high school level, where matches typically feature longer questions, as far as I can tell. I've never had any involvement in middle school academic competition and can't speak to whether or not it'd be a good idea for the middle school Bowl to also change to this format.)
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