Acceptable Blitzes

[The Two Hearts of Kwasi Boachi]

I was reliving a match I moderated last year, and I had someone buzz in on a Tossup on The Four Seasons and say "Spring in the Four Seasons" when he heard the clue for the "Spring" section of it. (Jeff, it was in IS 109-I think it would be very helpful to see the tossup, if you would post it here). I was just curious as to whether or not that is an acceptable kind of blitz, as I am not sure whether or not it was.

[perlnerd666]

If the other clues referenced other sections, then that's not acceptable.

[Muriel Axon]

I think what Jacob says is pretty much right, assuming "other clues" means "previously read clues." But out of curiosity, how did they refer to The Four Seasons in the question? I usually see it as "these works" or "this set of pieces" or something like that, but if it was "this work" or "this piece" (which happens sometimes), it might have caused confusion.

[bt_green_warbler]

The sixth movement of this work, which is filled with tremolos, is the only one marked "Presto." The constant repetition of violins in its opening movement symbolizes blooming flowers and chirping birds. The second section depicts a (*) thunderstorm, while the third commences with the joyful celebration of harvest time. For 10 points--name this set of concerti, composed by Antonio Vivaldi, that represents a full year.

answer: The _Four Seasons_ (or Le _Quattro Stagioni_)

The first sentence refers to "Summer" (only three movements per season), so the blitz would be incorrect.

[Skepticism and Animal Feed]

If you're a player and you are this situation, you can do one of two things:

(1) Buzz in with the most general answer you can. If you think its Spring, but are not sure, buzz in and say Four Seasons. You should get prompted if it indeed is Spring.

(2) "Embellishing your answer" is a thing that is allowed under NAQT rules as long as your embellishing is correct and isn't for the purpose of delaying the game. You if you buzz on a clue for spring, you can say "so you just described spring...is this a tossup on the Four Seasons?" and you'll probably get it regardless of whether the answer line was spring or four seasons.

[Kyle]

In general I agree with the reasoning expressed so far in this thread, but it also seems like that rule conflicts with NAQT's standard practice for common links. Consider this question, which I always remember because the answer line is so long:

Ze'ev Jabotinsky [zeh-EV zhah-boh-TIN-skee] gave the subtitle "We and the Arabs" to an essay about this kind of Wall. The Viet Minh attacked from this kind of Triangle south of Saigon. This kind of Guard was a {fascist} party in Romania, and this kind of Cross was a Prussian military (*) decoration. Otto von Bismarck spoke about "Blood and" this, and was this kind of Chancellor. For 10 points--name this metal that referred to a {communist} Curtain.

answer: _iron_ (accept _Iron Wall_, _Iron Triangle_, _Iron Guard_, _Iron Cross_, _Blood and Iron_, _Iron Chancellor_, or _Iron Curtain_)

In general, it's correct in a common-link question to answer a specific part rather than the actual answer. So if you buzz in on the second clue and say "Iron Triangle," you get 15 points even though Ze'ev Jabotinsky did not write The Iron Triangle Wall.

Can't you conceive of the tossup above as a kind of common-link question on "movements included in The _Four Seasons_"? If you buzz in on the Four Seasons question above with "Spring from The Four Seasons" on a clue about Spring, how is that any actually different from saying "Iron Triangle"?

[perlnerd666]

I think what Jacob says is pretty much right, assuming "other clues" means "previously read clues."

Yes, sorry about that.

But out of curiosity, how did they refer to The Four Seasons in the question? I usually see it as "these works" or "this set of pieces" or something like that, but if it was "this work" or "this piece" (which happens sometimes), it might have caused confusion.

One of my pet peeves is this, because I see that as "this work" all the time. Even worse: "the eighth movement of this work" for the second movement of "Autumn." With collections like Op. 8, that just makes no sense (I can see that perhaps working with Alkan's Études, but those are grouped into "symphony" and "concerto"—and would never, ever come up in quizbowl anyways).

[theMoMA]

For what it's worth, NAQT isn't that great about prompting on more general answers, so I don't know if Bruce's first strategy is the best play in that format. NAQT also seems to have strong inertia against accepting protests in the "you should have prompted" vein, at least in my experience, so be wary of answering generally and expecting to win a protest of this nature if the prompt isn't listed on the page.

At circuit tournaments, I think it's probably a better bet to buzz in with the more general answer, because you can typically bring successful protests if you're not prompted (which is often the case because circuit tournaments often have bad underlining or incomplete answer lines).

As a player, I think it's a good practice, if the moderator is faltering after your answer, to just say your additional answer, or even to say "if you're not sure, prompt me, and I'll say what I think you want, then we can discuss whether the prompt was correct at the end of the tossup or game." This way you're not getting into speculative "what would the player have said" situations and the TD can make a ruling on the prompt without having to replay a tossup if the prompt should have been allowed but wasn't.

[ThisIsMyUsername]

One of my pet peeves is this, because I see that as "this work" all the time. Even worse: "the eighth movement of this work" for the second movement of "Autumn." With collections like Op. 8, that just makes no sense (I can see that perhaps working with Alkan's Études, but those are grouped into "symphony" and "concerto"—and would never, ever come up in quizbowl anyways).

Seconding these objections. The Four Seasons is a sequence of four individual works within the collection The Contest Between Harmony and Invention. Each individual season in The Four Seasons is a work and the entire collection (The Contest Between Harmony and Invention) is a work, but The Four Seasons do not comprise one work, and should be tossed up as "these works/pieces". An analogy in literature would be the Lucy Poems: each poem is a work and The Lyrical Ballads (the larger collection to which they belong) is a work, but the Lucy Poems, when tossed up as a sequence, are called "these works/poems".

Nonetheless, even if you were tossing up The Contest Between Harmony and Invention, calling the final of Summer "the sixth movement" is idiotic and wrong. This would be like calling the last line of Shakespeare's Second Sonnet "the 28th line of this work".

[Muriel Axon]

Given the circumstances (by which I mean, the poor writing of the question) and the fact that the player at least mentioned The Four Seasons, I might have been merciful and actually taken it. Actually, saying "Spring from the Four Seasons" isn't that different from the example to the example Bruce gave, although if the question had actually indicated that it was about a set of works, I would consider that answer ("Spring from the Four Seasons," not the one Bruce mentioned) unambiguously unacceptable.

But I object to the possibility of viewing it as a common link on "movements in The Four Seasons," because you could also apply that logic to other things to which it clearly doesn't apply.

[Vernon Lee Bad Marriage, Jr.]

One of my pet peeves is this, because I see that as "this work" all the time. Even worse: "the eighth movement of this work" for the second movement of "Autumn." With collections like Op. 8, that just makes no sense (I can see that perhaps working with Alkan's Études, but those are grouped into "symphony" and "concerto"—and would never, ever come up in quizbowl anyways).

Actually, Alkan came up at at least 5 tournaments in the 2010-2011 season (not to mention how much he's come up before and since.) Quizbowl has a way of surprising your expectations that way.

[perlnerd666]

One of my pet peeves is this, because I see that as "this work" all the time. Even worse: "the eighth movement of this work" for the second movement of "Autumn." With collections like Op. 8, that just makes no sense (I can see that perhaps working with Alkan's Études, but those are grouped into "symphony" and "concerto"—and would never, ever come up in quizbowl anyways).

Actually, Alkan came up at at least 5 tournaments in the 2010-2011 season (not to mention how much he's come up before and since.) Quizbowl has a way of surprising your expectations that way.

Fair (I did mean high school-level, but that's my omission); he wouldn't come up in the same tournament as Vivaldi Op. 8, I bet...