Kevin wrote:I think a number of points raised here are very valid, especially in regards to the fact that charter schools are often able to expel students (or otherwise ask them to leave) much more easily than traditional public schools.
However, the issue of school names strikes me as a rather silly basis for a rule. In New Orleans, for example, whose public high schools are mostly charters, plenty of high schools (and middle/elementary schools) have "science" or "technology" or "math" or something similar in their names. The ongoing obsession with STEM is only going to lead more schools around the country to add buzzwords into their names. For many schools, it's more of a marketing ploy than anything else.
Cheynem wrote:I think charter schools, as long as they fit the size restrictions, should be allowed to play SSNCT, yes.
Cheynem wrote:I think the distinction is that private schools generally have some form of selective admissions policies which not all charter schools have. Private schools can say things like "you have to be Christian/male/over 300 pounds" to join, while charter schools do not. Charter schools are defined as public more or less in most legal frameworks (although not all and it's obviously a contentious issue)--I don't think NAQT should get to declare by fiat, that contra society's definition, charter schools are private, not public.
Anyway, this idea that "oh no, charter schools will totally dominate SSNCT" seems specious. First of all, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong in suggesting that some schools are going to have advantages over others. Secondly, there's been three SSNCTs so far. Charter schools have won 2 out of the 3. Hallsville won the first--that's a public school--they almost won the 2nd too.
At last year's SSNCT, a charter school won, but Macomb (a public school) took second. Leigh Valley, a charter school, took third. Southwestern (public) and West Point (public schools) were next. Both of the top finishing charter schools lost matches at one point to public schools. It's a small sample size, but to me it indicates that basically, teams with good programs/players/coaches are going to do well. If Hallsvile and Macomb had won a couple more matches, no charter school would ever have won SSNCT, and then this argument would seem weird.
I played and won the first ever Small School Championship for NAQT. I went to a very small public high school. We believed we were good enough to contend with anyone--charter, public, private. I don't deny that charter schools have some advantages, but they also don't guarantee quizbowl success--kids who want to achieve or get good grades might not be interested in quizbowl. A public school with a few committed kids and a strong coach is probably far better than an average charter school.
Cheynem wrote:I think the distinction is that private schools generally have some form of selective admissions policies which not all charter schools have. Private schools can say things like "you have to be Christian/male/over 300 pounds" to join, while charter schools do not. Charter schools are defined as public more or less in most legal frameworks (although not all and it's obviously a contentious issue)--I don't think NAQT should get to declare by fiat, that contra society's definition, charter schools are private, not public.
Anyway, this idea that "oh no, charter schools will totally dominate SSNCT" seems specious. First of all, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong in suggesting that some schools are going to have advantages over others. Secondly, there's been three SSNCTs so far. Charter schools have won 2 out of the 3. Hallsville won the first--that's a public school--they almost won the 2nd too.
At last year's SSNCT, a charter school won, but Macomb (a public school) took second. Leigh Valley, a charter school, took third. Southwestern (public) and West Point (public schools) were next. Both of the top finishing charter schools lost matches at one point to public schools. It's a small sample size, but to me it indicates that basically, teams with good programs/players/coaches are going to do well. If Hallsvile and Macomb had won a couple more matches, no charter school would ever have won SSNCT, and then this argument would seem weird.
I played and won the first ever Small School Championship for NAQT. I went to a very small public high school. We believed we were good enough to contend with anyone--charter, public, private. I don't deny that charter schools have some advantages, but they also don't guarantee quizbowl success--kids who want to achieve or get good grades might not be interested in quizbowl. A public school with a few committed kids and a strong coach is probably far better than an average charter school.
Rufous-capped Thornbill wrote:And that's where I agree with Mike that I don't think NAQT will have much interest in wading into the current discourse about public and private schools, the definition of charters and all that (the fact that almost every public school in Louisiana, and a growing number nationwide is now a charter makes any reform incredibly tricky).
Charter schools are not operated by a government authority, but instead are operated by private contractors (which range from for-profit corporations to churches which teach students that Jesus rode dinosaurs) who receive subsidies for their educational firm.
AKKOLADE wrote:Charter schools should be allowed to play SSNCT.
Private schools should be allowed to play SSNCT.
If you don't want to lose to those teams, then get good(er).
The purpose of a national championship is to determine the best team in the country. If you're going to host a small school national championship, then allow teams from schools with low enrollments compete. If all it took to have a good quiz bowl team was to have a selective admissions policy, we'd have way more LASAs in our world then we do.
Preventing teams from competing for a title because you don't like the politics that allowed their school to be created is as bad as any other anti-competitive teams rule that would be instituted by the Illinois High School Association and lead to complaints from people on this forum for being a practice of bad quiz bowl.
If you want to add a sub-clhampionship for non-recruitment schools, sure, go hog wild.
The purpose of a game, or tournament, of quiz bowl is to find the best quiz bowl team. Deviating from that purpose for any reason causes more harm to the game than anything like hoses, poorly written questions, not keeping stats, math comp tossups or any other easily embraced stance.
Cheynem wrote:For those who are confused by Lee's references to Facebook, I think he is referencing a post by Matt Weiner, who doesn't post on the boards and hasn't posted in this thread. The people in this thread who disagree with him did not post anything on Facebook and have not impugned him at all.
I would ask Lee (and I guess Matt?) to settle his issues with Matt's Facebook carpings on Facebook, not here.
MahoningQuizBowler wrote:Whatever is decided, as a tournament/league director, I need to know what to communicate to my fields. If changes are made to the qualification policies, are they applied retroactively to competitions that have already happened this season?
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