Field Set for 2014 National History Bowl / Updated Seeds

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Field Set for 2014 National History Bowl / Updated Seeds

Post by Great Bustard » Tue Apr 15, 2014 11:05 pm

http://www.historybowl.com/nationals-teams/
The 2014 National History Bowl National Championships field is set with 216 teams (132 Varsity, 84 JV). At this point, adjustments will only be made due to drops of teams already in the draw. Madden rankings as listed on the page reflect official seedings for the draw. If you are ranked 1-22 in the Varsity, or 1-14 in the JV, you are a 1 seed in your morning bracket of 6 teams. If you are ranked 23-44 in the Varsity, or 15-28 in the JV, you are a 2 seed. Other rankings remain confidential. The draw was seeded by ranking all teams, and then "snaking" it, so that the 1, 44, 45, 88, 89, and 132nd teams are in the first bracket, and so on. Brackets themselves will be available early next week, once our stats team has uploaded them onto the program which Andrew Feist created for this purpose last year. The brackets are controlled so that teams typically do not face teams from their home region in the morning rounds, are extremely unlikely to face other teams from their school in the Upper Bracket rounds in the afternoon, and take into account special requests (i.e. a need to play only at the hotel).
I will note that due to a number of factors (greater shift in rosters, greater potential for major jumps in improvement, less personal familiarity, etc.), the JV rankings are lower confidence. I am willing to answer general questions about the draw in this thread, but will not respond to requests for where teams are ranked if they are not in the upper 1/3, or why seedings were done the way they were (other than to note that over 10 hours was spent compiling the Madden rankings). The top half of the morning brackets advance to the Upper Brackets for the afternoon. As was the case the past two years, the top 32 Varsity, and top 16 JV teams make the single elimination knock-out playoffs on Saturday evening (with the final 2 Varsity and 1 JV rounds on Sunday).
David Madden
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Re: Field Set for 2014 National History Bowl / Updated Seeds

Post by Corry » Wed Apr 16, 2014 12:14 am

Will the National History Bowl plan to have double-elimination playoffs on Saturday evening, anytime down the line? I've always felt that the current single-elimination playoff system was rather harsh.

The double-elimination system used by HSNCT is noticeably more complicated, but it certainly doesn't seem impossible to implement in this context.
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Re: Field Set for 2014 National History Bowl / Updated Seeds

Post by Great Bustard » Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:15 am

From a competition standpoint, I would love to have a system like NAQT's double elim in place, but there's not enough time for it, as long as we have 32 teams make the Varsity playoffs. Even with just a 16 team bracket, a double elimination tournament takes up to 9 rounds to run through. Google 16 team double elimination bracket to see why.
A better option would be to go to a system with 32 teams who would play in 8 groups of 4 round robin rounds from about 7:30-9:15 or so, with tiebreaks immediately to follow. That would still make it about 10:00 before we could play quarterfinals among the winners of each group, and that's too late. Trying to do 3 rounds of the Bowl on Sunday is also pushing it, and likely to mean that the Bee doesn't end until after 5. And there would still be single elim for the final 3 rounds (unless you did 2 brackets, but that then pushes things out at least one more round...)
What I am strongly considering for next year, though, is to adjust the number of questions in the 1st, 2nd, and 4th quarters throughout the tournament. 8-8-8 in the morning, 10-10-10 in the afternoon, 12-12-12 on Saturday evening, and either 12-12-12 or 14-14-14 on Sunday. That would at least allow for slightly more competition among the top teams.
Personally, I am intrigued by the idea of doing bracketed rounds in the playoffs, but have decided against it for now out of concerns that the timing of the event is too tight. With the Bee, Bowl, and now the USHB and USGO on Friday, there's a ton of competition on offer, so hopefully the single elim (though admittedly not ideal) doesn't turn people off too much.
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Re: Field Set for 2014 National History Bowl / Updated Seeds

Post by johntait1 » Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:24 am

I would like to see double elimination playoffs as well, although I'm not sure what the feasibility of it would be since History Bowl also has History Bee, meaning a lot more prelim rounds have to be played. Still, it seems sort of strange that a team may be eliminated after a single bad round even if they have done extremely well in the previous ten rounds.
Also, would it be possible to post the playoff results on the stats program? I can't seem to find playoff results from last year's competition, if anyone could tell me where they are that'd be helpful.
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Re: Field Set for 2014 National History Bowl / Updated Seeds

Post by jonpin » Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:17 am

Speaking as a coach, it seems that the best way to make sure you can crown a champion in a fair manner is to not run 4+ competitions in one weekend so you can spend the time you need to. If I were de novo trying to create a format for this, and there was an interest in double-elimination playoffs, it would probably involve taking two teams from each prelim group, plus some wild cards to make a convenient number (likely 48 varsity, 32 JV) and running JV from there.
johntait1 wrote:I would like to see double elimination playoffs as well, although I'm not sure what the feasibility of it would be since History Bowl also has History Bee, meaning a lot more prelim rounds have to be played. Still, it seems sort of strange that a team may be eliminated after a single bad round even if they have done extremely well in the previous ten rounds.
Also, would it be possible to post the playoff results on the stats program? I can't seem to find playoff results from last year's competition, if anyone could tell me where they are that'd be helpful.
I don't know if they ever made it to the website, but I have a PDF bracket of results from last year's nationals playoffs on my home computer and can throw it on here sometime in the next few days.
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Re: Field Set for 2014 National History Bowl / Updated Seeds

Post by quizbowlenthusiast » Wed Apr 16, 2014 4:38 pm

your link for the morlan rankings on the website is wrong it goes to march page not april additionally you forgot to put acton boxborough as 193 for the morlan rank and 30 for the madden rank

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Re: Field Set for 2014 National History Bowl / Updated Seeds

Post by Great Bustard » Wed Apr 16, 2014 4:46 pm

jonpin wrote:Speaking as a coach, it seems that the best way to make sure you can crown a champion in a fair manner is to not run 4+ competitions in one weekend so you can spend the time you need to. If I were de novo trying to create a format for this, and there was an interest in double-elimination playoffs, it would probably involve taking two teams from each prelim group, plus some wild cards to make a convenient number (likely 48 varsity, 32 JV) and running JV from there.
johntait1 wrote:I would like to see double elimination playoffs as well, although I'm not sure what the feasibility of it would be since History Bowl also has History Bee, meaning a lot more prelim rounds have to be played. Still, it seems sort of strange that a team may be eliminated after a single bad round even if they have done extremely well in the previous ten rounds.
Also, would it be possible to post the playoff results on the stats program? I can't seem to find playoff results from last year's competition, if anyone could tell me where they are that'd be helpful.
I don't know if they ever made it to the website, but I have a PDF bracket of results from last year's nationals playoffs on my home computer and can throw it on here sometime in the next few days.
The four competitions really has nothing to do with it. It would be the same issue if it were just the National History Bee and Bowl. There's no way we're running Bowl matches on Friday - too many teams would have trouble getting in that night (cf LASA's story of getting in late to HSNCT last year). As is, for obvious reasons, we're not about to not run the Bee solely to produce a marginally more effective way of treating a problem that really doesn't exist - crowning a legitimate national champion through the current system. For what it's worth, the #1 Varsity seed at NHBB has in fact won each of the three years we have run this (and last year's final featured the #1 and #2 seeds, with a #3 seed making the semis, and the #4 seed making the quarters. Plus, the #1 seed in the JV last year won as well.)
One reason this is less of an issue in NHBB than in other formats (despite the 60 second rounds, and overall fewer questions in a round) is that with a limit to just one subject (even if broadly interpreted) there's less chance for packet variability compared with the rest of quizbowl.
Tldr; if we didn't run the Bee on Sunday, then we could of course run double elim playoffs. But the hurdle to that is the National History Bee, and we're not about to do away with it. At a certain point, we hit our Pareto limit with this, and I'd add we're very close to that point with the way it's currently structured.
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Re: Field Set for 2014 National History Bowl / Updated Seeds

Post by Great Bustard » Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:34 pm

We'll work on getting last year's playoff stats up (the stats program will allow for this, as well as a full ranking of teams this year). The link to the most updated Morlan ranks has been updated. The Varsity ranks are correct as stands - there was some movement of teams from the earlier rankings as new teams signed up, I reanalyzed the field, and made adjustments to correct for the reasons I mentioned in the earlier post. There was 1 switch in the JV today due to a team informing me its lineup at Nationals was significantly different from the one it qualified with at Regionals. The JV rankings have been updated accordingly.
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Re: Field Set for 2014 National History Bowl / Updated Seeds

Post by johntait1 » Wed Apr 16, 2014 6:39 pm

While the following questions may not be completely relevant, I couldn't find a better thread to post them, and I couldn't find the answers on the Nationals page. If they are already posted, I apologize.
1. How will the seeding for the playoffs be determined? Will it be like last year, with rank in afternoon group being first, record in afternoon second, and points in afternoon rounds third, and top two teams in each bracket advancing for sure, and the remaining wildcards based on record, then points in the afternoon rounds? Or will it be just record then points per game to compensate for the different difficulties of the various groups?
2. Will tiebreakers all be standard history questions as listed on the official distribution?http://www.historybowl.com/wp-content/u ... vision.pdf
Or will it be like last year, where all subjects will be used for tiebreakers? I remember that Northmont won the JV championships on a tiebreaker on Charles Ives. Also, I think the idea of more tossups in each quarter would be very helpful for the playoffs in the future. A few more questions in the prelims would be nice too as last year 4 out of our 10 games in prelims last year came down to one question, with one game decided on a buzzer race on the final question. However, that might be a lot more questions to write so not sure what the feasibility is.
Thanks, and sorry if this is a bit too off topic, but talking about the draw and seeds reminded me of playoff seeds.
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Re: Field Set for 2014 National History Bowl / Updated Seeds

Post by Mark Wolfsberg » Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:48 pm

I discussed this with my son who is going to his 3rd NHBB in 8 days and will have 2 more NHBBs before he graduates.
Great Bustard wrote:
jonpin wrote:Speaking as a coach, it seems that the best way to make sure you can crown a champion in a fair manner is to not run 4+ competitions in one weekend so you can spend the time you need to. If I were de novo trying to create a format for this, and there was an interest in double-elimination playoffs, it would probably involve taking two teams from each prelim group, plus some wild cards to make a convenient number (likely 48 varsity, 32 JV) and running JV from there.
johntait1 wrote:I would like to see double elimination playoffs as well, although I'm not sure what the feasibility of it would be since History Bowl also has History Bee, meaning a lot more prelim rounds have to be played. Still, it seems sort of strange that a team may be eliminated after a single bad round even if they have done extremely well in the previous ten rounds.
Also, would it be possible to post the playoff results on the stats program? I can't seem to find playoff results from last year's competition, if anyone could tell me where they are that'd be helpful.
I don't know if they ever made it to the website, but I have a PDF bracket of results from last year's nationals playoffs on my home computer and can throw it on here sometime in the next few days.

He would not want to give up the Bee for a double elimination Bowl.

I asked if he would give up the Geo Olympiad to have more Varsity Bowl rounds on Friday night; Once again, NO!

Obviously other people may have other opinions, but my son really likes this tournament the way it is.

I also have to say that I think the 4 quarter system that Dave has implemented for NHBB is much more entertaining and enjoyable for spectators, readers, and contestants alike. The NAQT system is OK, but results can differ wildly based on luck getting bonus questions that are, or are not, in your wheelhouse. NHBB keeps a little of that, but, just the right amount. The lightning round is particularly exciting.

I think that the growth rate of NHBB speaks for the success of these innovations. I also think the NHBB format appeals to a wider audience than the current QB format.

just my opinion. :grin:
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Re: Field Set for 2014 National History Bowl / Updated Seeds

Post by johntait1 » Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:44 pm

Mark Wolfsberg wrote:I discussed this with my son who is going to his 3rd NHBB in 8 days and will have 2 more NHBBs before he graduates.
He would not want to give up the Bee for a double elimination Bowl.

I asked if he would give up the Geo Olympiad to have more Varsity Bowl rounds on Friday night; Once again, NO!

Obviously other people may have other opinions, but my son really likes this tournament the way it is.
People certainly have varying opinions on stuff like this, so if any change is considered, all the teams at Nationals should probably be surveyed on it. It seems like only a small percentage of people who attend Nationals browse or post on these forums, so this thread may not reflect the vast majority of public opinion on this. If I remember correctly, these forums were pretty unanimous for suggesting that the Sports and Entertainment Bees should not be run this year, but they are still being run because some schools really enjoy them.
Mark Wolfsberg wrote:I discussed this with my son who is going to his 3rd NHBB in 8 days and will have 2 more NHBBs before he graduates.

I also have to say that I think the 4 quarter system that Dave has implemented for NHBB is much more entertaining and enjoyable for spectators, readers, and contestants alike. The NAQT system is OK, but results can differ wildly based on luck getting bonus questions that are, or are not, in your wheelhouse.
I definitely agree, from my experiences it does seem like the four quarter format is liked much better. Even members of our quizbowl team who don't play NHBB because they aren't into history admit that the format is much more interesting, and they are players who've played many quizbowl tournaments and are very good at quizbowl. However...........
Mark Wolfsberg wrote: The lightning round is particularly exciting.
While I certainly like that the lightning round is a good place to test deep knowledge of a certain subject in the current format, I've had a few issues with them in the past that hopefully will not happen this year. One major problem I've had this year at regionals is that the 60 second time limit has prevented us from answering the final part multiple times, causing us to only get 70 instead of the 100(the reader called time before I was able to answer the final question but I knew I got it after the answer was read) because we had a slow reader. I tried interrupting them halfway through the question but since they were relatively inexperienced, they just continued reading and after they finished I would have to give the answer again. I am curious as to if this is just because I'm stuck in Tennessee where there aren't many good readers, or if this has been a problem others have encountered as well. Hopefully, this won't be an issue at Nationals with faster and more experienced readers(I don't remember being unable to finish any lightning rounds last year despite answering immediately, but then again, our team was at a fairly low skill level last year so we didn't really get that many lightning round parts).
Another issue I've noticed in the past was that it seemed like certain categories were much easier than others. For example last year three of the choices were Roman Battles, British Symbols, and Southeast Asia. Even though the questions may not have inherently been any easier, the education I've had has exposed me far more to Roman Battles than British Symbols or Southeast Asia. This makes it so that in a close game, the team that's down going into lightning sometimes actually possesses the advantage in the game, because they get an easier topic that they have a decent chance of sweeping or getting a good score on. In practice there's been multiple times where one team that is down 10 entering the last question of the second round will deliberately let the other team get the last question, because they know they will get to choose first in lightning and thus pull out a victory in a close game. I'd be curious to know if this is something that other teams have noticed as well, or is it just that we are really bad at lightning so we can't get questions on more obscure topics? If that is the case, I apologize for bringing up something that is not really a problem, and please let me know so that I'll be sure to study some lightning especially before Nationals!
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Re: Field Set for 2014 National History Bowl / Updated Seeds

Post by gustavus.adolphus » Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:01 pm

Yeah, from my (very limited) experience, it seems that first crack on the lightning rounds doesn't provide a big advantage. I think that's because the difficulty of a given set of questions can vary so much based on what's actually in the questions, not just the field.
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Re: Field Set for 2014 National History Bowl / Updated Seeds

Post by Schmidt Sting Pain Index » Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:47 pm

johntait1 wrote: Another issue I've noticed in the past was that it seemed like certain categories were much easier than others. For example last year three of the choices were Roman Battles, British Symbols, and Southeast Asia. Even though the questions may not have inherently been any easier, the education I've had has exposed me far more to Roman Battles than British Symbols or Southeast Asia. This makes it so that in a close game, the team that's down going into lightning sometimes actually possesses the advantage in the game, because they get an easier topic that they have a decent chance of sweeping or getting a good score on. In practice there's been multiple times where one team that is down 10 entering the last question of the second round will deliberately let the other team get the last question, because they know they will get to choose first in lightning and thus pull out a victory in a close game. I'd be curious to know if this is something that other teams have noticed as well, or is it just that we are really bad at lightning so we can't get questions on more obscure topics? If that is the case, I apologize for bringing up something that is not really a problem, and please let me know so that I'll be sure to study some lightning especially before Nationals!
On the other hand, I thought the Southeast Asia was really easy, but the Roman Battles was hard. It all depends on your knowledge. However, lightning round is crucial and in fact lopsided at times (Clearly the British Symbols is more obscure than either Roman Battles and Southeast Asia). I think there are better examples to show that. And yes, I have seen that strategy employed and have personally used it to try and be down at the half in a close game, such as purposely missing a bonus part or something. I think its been successful, as sacrificing 10 points will be worth it if you can create a possibly huge swing in a game. In one case, the other team was down ten going into the last tossup of the 2nd quarter, but got the tossup and purposely missed the bonus so they could be tied but still get the first pick. They got out with a very easy category on which the scored 100 on, forcing us to pick a hard category and get a 50, creating a 90 point swing (if they had answered the bonus correctly giving us first pick and the exact lightning round scenario had occurred in reverse). We needed a huge comeback to pull off the win.
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Re: Field Set for 2014 National History Bowl / Updated Seeds

Post by johntait1 » Wed Apr 23, 2014 6:29 pm

Out of curiosity, did anyone ever post the playoff results from last year's playoffs? If not, its ok, since everyone is probably be preparing for this year's Nationals now.
Another thing is that does anyone know where to find the results from last year, now that the new brackets are on the website? Thanks!
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Re: Field Set for 2014 National History Bowl / Updated Seeds

Post by AKKOLADE » Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:58 pm

quizbowlenthusiast wrote:your link for the morlan rankings on the website is wrong it goes to march page not april additionally you forgot to put acton boxborough as 193 for the morlan rank and 30 for the madden rank
While I don't have anything wrong with your posting this reminder in general, every time someone brings up the rankings I feel it's important that we keep perspective on what's important in quiz bowl and, specifically, running NHBB.
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Re: Field Set for 2014 National History Bowl / Updated Seeds

Post by tabstop » Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:07 pm

johntait1 wrote:Out of curiosity, did anyone ever post the playoff results from last year's playoffs? If not, its ok, since everyone is probably be preparing for this year's Nationals now.
Another thing is that does anyone know where to find the results from last year, now that the new brackets are on the website? Thanks!
If you tack "2013" onto the end of of the URL, eg, http://historybowl.com/bowl_varsity/2013/ , you will be magically transported back one year.
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Re: Field Set for 2014 National History Bowl / Updated Seeds

Post by johntait1 » Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:49 pm

tabstop wrote:
johntait1 wrote:Out of curiosity, did anyone ever post the playoff results from last year's playoffs? If not, its ok, since everyone is probably be preparing for this year's Nationals now.
Another thing is that does anyone know where to find the results from last year, now that the new brackets are on the website? Thanks!
If you tack "2013" onto the end of of the URL, eg, http://historybowl.com/bowl_varsity/2013/ , you will be magically transported back one year.
Thank you very much! Greatly appreciated!
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Re: Field Set for 2014 National History Bowl / Updated Seeds

Post by jonpin » Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:49 pm

tabstop wrote:
johntait1 wrote:Out of curiosity, did anyone ever post the playoff results from last year's playoffs? If not, its ok, since everyone is probably be preparing for this year's Nationals now.
Another thing is that does anyone know where to find the results from last year, now that the new brackets are on the website? Thanks!
If you tack "2013" onto the end of of the URL, eg, http://historybowl.com/bowl_varsity/2013/ , you will be magically transported back one year.
Whew. Having just discovered the changeover, I was worried that last year's results had been accidentally saved over. After searching for a while, I was unable to find scores for all of the final matches on Sunday, but I put those I had into the attached PDF brackets.
Attachments
2013 National History Bowl Final Bracket.pdf
(224.37 KiB) Downloaded 131 times
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Re: Field Set for 2014 National History Bowl / Updated Seeds

Post by johntait1 » Thu Apr 24, 2014 8:09 am

jonpin wrote:
tabstop wrote:
johntait1 wrote:Out of curiosity, did anyone ever post the playoff results from last year's playoffs? If not, its ok, since everyone is probably be preparing for this year's Nationals now.
Another thing is that does anyone know where to find the results from last year, now that the new brackets are on the website? Thanks!
If you tack "2013" onto the end of of the URL, eg, http://historybowl.com/bowl_varsity/2013/ , you will be magically transported back one year.
Whew. Having just discovered the changeover, I was worried that last year's results had been accidentally saved over. After searching for a while, I was unable to find scores for all of the final matches on Sunday, but I put those I had into the attached PDF brackets.
Ok thanks for the results!
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Re: Field Set for 2014 National History Bowl / Updated Seeds

Post by John Heslin » Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:20 pm

jonpin wrote:
tabstop wrote:
johntait1 wrote:Out of curiosity, did anyone ever post the playoff results from last year's playoffs? If not, its ok, since everyone is probably be preparing for this year's Nationals now.
Another thing is that does anyone know where to find the results from last year, now that the new brackets are on the website? Thanks!
If you tack "2013" onto the end of of the URL, eg, http://historybowl.com/bowl_varsity/2013/ , you will be magically transported back one year.
Whew. Having just discovered the changeover, I was worried that last year's results had been accidentally saved over. After searching for a while, I was unable to find scores for all of the final matches on Sunday, but I put those I had into the attached PDF brackets.
I can report that the Centennial A/ Northmont score was 220-220 with Northmont winning on the sudden-death tiebreaker.
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