2015 HSNCT discussion

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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by MaestroExtraordinaire98 » Wed Jun 03, 2015 4:13 pm

I know it was common link, but dropping the ABC plant development model in the first line of the ABC tossup might have been too much of a giveaway. The same goes for histone acetylation in the histone tossup. Thanks for being nice with the powers, NAQT. As always, the philosophy (Heidegger, Kierkegaard, Bentham, etc) was great. I only wish there was more of it at these tournaments. Anyway, overall it was a great set and great tournament.
Last edited by MaestroExtraordinaire98 on Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by Marble-faced Bristle Tyrant » Wed Jun 03, 2015 4:24 pm

Here are mine:

1: alternation of generations/thallus/anther; NO/nitroglycerin/mitochondria
2: glucose/maltose/equatorial
8: thyroid/hypothalamus/calcitonin
10: stomata/abscisic acid/ethene
12: competition/Paramecium/Galapagos
13: folate/uracil/spina bifida
20: carotid/dura mater/anastomosis (this one also had a part replaced in editing: part C)
23: cows/insulin/albumin
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by Important Bird Area » Wed Jun 03, 2015 4:58 pm

2015 HSNCT round 2 wrote:Gilbert Walker discovered this atmospheric phenomenon, in which pressures across the Pacific fluctuate. For 10 points each--

A. Name this recurring phenomenon whose namesake "index" is calculated from the difference in surface air pressures at Tahiti and Darwin, Australia.

answer: _Southern Oscillation_ (Index) (prompt on "SO" or "SOI")

B. Sustained negative values of the Southern Oscillation Index generally signal one of these episodes whose Spanish name refers to Jesus; they bring warm water to the Pacific coast of South America.

answer: _El Nino_ (prompt on "ENSO"; prompt on "warm phase of the Southern Oscillation" or "negative phase of the Southern Oscillation"; do not accept or prompt on "La Nina")

C. During an El Nino event these winds typically weaken or reverse; they are the near-surface component of the Hadley cells.

answer: _trade wind_s
2015 HSNCT round 3 wrote:A text from this movement, The Iron Wall, was written by its "revisionist" leader Ze'ev Jabotinsky. In 1948 Folke Bernadotte was assassinated by a militant group of this movement, the Stern Gang. In 1903 this movement championed the (*) Uganda Plan in response to riots in Kishinev. It was founded by Theodor Herzl after the Dreyfus Affair. For 10 points--name this movement that aimed to create a Jewish homeland.

answer: _Zion_ism (or _Zionist_ movement; prompt on answers mentioning the idea of a Jewish homeland; do not accept or prompt on "Judaism")
2015 HSNCT round 26 wrote:Bruno Bettelheim suggested that people born in these places have weak emotions and trouble forming close relationships. The first of these communities, Deganyah, was the birthplace of Moshe Dayan, and is located at the south end of the Sea of (*) Galilee. These communities are different from moshavim in that everything is owned communally. For 10 points--name these collectivist communities, often farms, in Israel.

answer: _kibbutz_im (accept _kibbutzes_; prompt on "collective (farms)" before "collectivist")
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by The Polebarn Hotel » Wed Jun 03, 2015 5:58 pm

Marble-faced Bristle Tyrant wrote:Here are mine:

1: alternation of generations/thallus/anther; NO/nitroglycerin/mitochondria
2: glucose/maltose/equatorial
8: thyroid/hypothalamus/calcitonin
10: stomata/abscisic acid/ethene
12: competition/Paramecium/Galapagos
13: folate/uracil/spina bifida
20: carotid/dura mater/anastomosis (this one also had a part replaced in editing: part C)
23: cows/insulin/albumin
Personally, I thought that the bonus in round 12 on competition was far too easy. The first and last prompts seemed gettable by basically anyone who's taken a biology class of any kind - at least, from my perspective. Paramecium also wasn't that difficult, iirc. The only other bonuses that our team actually got (i.e.: didn't have a bye during) were the ones in rounds 1 and 10, which seemed fine to me.
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by Jason Cheng » Wed Jun 03, 2015 6:33 pm

Marble-faced Bristle Tyrant wrote:
glucose/maltose/equatorial - Equatorial was pretty hard, and I'm not a huge fan of memorizing all the disaccharides
Is it? Are there not high school organic chemistry courses where they learn about cyclohexane's chair conformation (asking seriously)? As for the other part, it was originally about something else, but got changed in editing (so I am off the hook there).
To answer that question, I don't think there are many high school organic chemistry courses, period. The chair conformation of cyclohexane is a core part of early ochem curricula, sure, but most high schoolers will probably never touch organic chemistry in an organized context, and this bonus went one step further than just "this conformation of cyclohexane." I'm not really a fan of ochem coming up in high school for that reason.
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by Haaaaaaaarry Whiiiiiiiiiite » Wed Jun 03, 2015 6:38 pm

Sic Semper Fidelis wrote:Maybe it's just something in my region, but it seems like everyone who went to high school around where I am had to read that book in English class which is why to me it seemed to early. If that's just a weird quirk of the English teachers around here, then I retract my "too early" :)
Generally speaking, if you've read the book in question, you should be able to get a tossup on it fairly early on.
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by remake20 » Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:21 pm

Can I perhaps see the Grorillaz TU from R1?
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by Auks Ran Ova » Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:25 pm

Sic Semper Fidelis wrote:
Charbroil wrote:
Sic Semper Fidelis wrote:I think the tossup about Okonkwo mentioned Obierika by by name in the first clue, which was way too early.
I wrote this tossup after reading the novel; I'm not sure if I agree with you. Obierika is, like, the eighth most prominent character in the novel? I'm not sure how you could know his name unless you've:

A) Read the book,
B) Memorized all of its major (for an extremely broad definition of "major") characters,
C) Or studied a lot of Nigerian literature, recognized the name as an Ibo name, and then guessed that Okonkwo is the most likely character that could be tossed up.

I'm perfectly fine with you getting a first line buzz on the tossup if you've done any of those things.
Maybe it's just something in my region, but it seems like everyone who went to high school around where I am had to read that book in English class which is why to me it seemed to early. If that's just a weird quirk of the English teachers around here, then I retract my "too early" :)
Lots of people do read the book in high school, and beyond that lots of decent teams are able to put together "literary character + obviously Nigerian name". As an editor, I'd tend to agree with you (Finn).
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by Important Bird Area » Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:29 pm

2015 HSNCT round 1 wrote:This band exclaims "All hail King Neptune" in the song "Superfast Jellyfish." Mos Def sings "Thunder roll, sunshine, work it out" on "Stylo," a single from this band's 2010 album Plastic Beach. This band repeats "My future is coming on" in (*) "Clint Eastwood." Damon Albarn and the cartoonist Jamie Hewlett created the fictional members of--for 10 points--what "virtual band" that sang "Windmill, windmill for the land" in "Feel Good Inc."?
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by Al Hirt » Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:43 pm

El Cool Rectangle wrote:The questions for this set on the whole were very good. There was certainly some history on the easier side, as well as some CE (dropping artificial islands first line for South China Sea notably sticks out). On the whole, though, the difficulty seemed good, with powers available if you had knowledge but not if you just knew a little about the subject. As a good little zionist, I was ecstatic for the questions on zionism and kibbutzim. Can someone post those?
Ben, we already had this conversation in person, but I definitely agree with you on the South China Sea question. Also, the "China" question using the Thomas Friedman clue in the first line seemed way too easy to "fraud". Friedman is well known by many current events enthusiasts as an economic scholar well versed in Chinese affairs, and it seemed a little bit obvious. A description of one of his works might have served the clue better.

I generally liked the CE this tournament. I thought it fell a little bit on the easy side, but the answer lines weren't only countries and states and I liked that. Glenn Greenwald was an excellent subject to toss up, and the bonuses were creative and thoughtful as well. I personally think Narendra Modi deserves a tossup rather than simply being a bonus part of something related to India, but that's really not a valid criticism at all.

The sports really made this tournament fun-thank you to the writers for not using the IS style of "this man had x homers last year" or "threw 45 touchdowns this year" and instead picking cool historical clues. Marge Schott was a great clue for the Reds tossup, and Muttiah Muralidaran is a Tamil national hero whose appearance in the cricket bonus made me incredibly happy. The bonus was on the easy side, but for something like cricket that most quiz bowlers don't have incredibly familiarity with that's okay.
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by MaestroExtraordinaire98 » Thu Jun 04, 2015 12:33 am

Like Shravan, I was overjoyed when I heard the cricket bonus. I'm a huge cricket fan, and I never thought cricket would be asked about at any tournament, much less nationals. Thanks NAQT!!
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by Auks Ran Ova » Thu Jun 04, 2015 12:51 am

Al Hirt wrote:Friedman is well known by many current events enthusiasts as an economic scholar well versed in [anything]
Um...
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by Periplus of the Erythraean Sea » Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:56 am

Auks Ran Ova wrote:
Al Hirt wrote:Friedman is well known by many current events enthusiasts as an economic scholar well versed in [anything]
Um...
Apparently talking about random airports you get paid thousands to fly first-class to and summarizing everything about a country in three boring, barely-relevant points and/or anecdotes makes you a top scholar these days.

I encourage a visit to the following website:

http://thomasfriedmanopedgenerator.com
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by Al Hirt » Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:24 am

I actually don't think too much of his work, but he's well associated with China. A description involving his work would have served the same purpose. That being said, it wasn't an egregious mishap or anything.
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by Adventure Temple Trail » Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:35 am

Al Hirt wrote:I actually don't think too much of his work, but he's well associated with China. A description involving his work would have served the same purpose. That being said, it wasn't an egregious mishap or anything.
I don't really agree that merely hearing "Thomas Friedman wrote an article about this place" is enough to get any player to one answer. The man writes about a bazillion different places.
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by Kasper Kaijanen » Thu Jun 04, 2015 10:27 am

Can I see the TU over transgender people? I negged it with transsexual so I'd like to see it again to figure out what made my answer wrong. Also, can I see the Melee bonus round because I love that game?
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by Rufous-capped Thornbill » Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:02 am

Matthew J wrote:
Al Hirt wrote:I actually don't think too much of his work, but he's well associated with China. A description involving his work would have served the same purpose. That being said, it wasn't an egregious mishap or anything.
I don't really agree that merely hearing "Thomas Friedman wrote an article about this place" is enough to get any player to one answer. The man writes about a bazillion different places.
And he rarely writes concretely or memorably about any of them.
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by Al Hirt » Thu Jun 04, 2015 12:52 pm

Could I actually see the China tossup with the Friedman clue and the Westboro Baptist Church tossup? That might help clear up my own confusion for the former, and I just thought the latter was very well written.
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by blizzard » Thu Jun 04, 2015 3:00 pm

I'd just like to say that the "dark and stormy night" tossup was very fun and one of my favorite questions ever. Thanks to whoever wrote that!
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by The Stately Rhododendron » Thu Jun 04, 2015 3:03 pm

Sic Semper Fidelis wrote:Can I see the TU over transgender people? I negged it with transsexual so I'd like to see it again to figure out what made my answer wrong. Also, can I see the Melee bonus round because I love that game?
Transsexual and Transgender mean different things in the sense that gender and sex are different.
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by Kasper Kaijanen » Thu Jun 04, 2015 3:44 pm

The Stately Rhododendron wrote:
Sic Semper Fidelis wrote:Can I see the TU over transgender people? I negged it with transsexual so I'd like to see it again to figure out what made my answer wrong. Also, can I see the Melee bonus round because I love that game?
Transsexual and Transgender mean different things in the sense that gender and sex are different.
Right, but the clue I buzzed on was (I think) about Caitlyn Jenner who I thought was transsexual but on further reading it looks like she has not completely transitioned so I don't know if she would fall under the term transsexual. That's why I wanted to see the earlier clues, to see who they referred to
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by Important Bird Area » Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:15 pm

2015 HSNCT round 17 wrote:In December 2014 one person claimed to have "cried of happiness" after "learning what" this characteristic "meant" in a suicide note that ended "Fix society. Please." Leelah Alcorn had this characteristic in common with a person who claimed to have been (*) "running away from who I was" in an interview that noted that athlete still prefers the pronoun "he." In April 2015 Bruce Jenner announced he was--for 10 points--what "T" in "LGBT"?

answer: (being) _trans_gender (or being a _trans_gender _woman_; accept Leelah _Alcorn_ (or Josh(ua Ryan) _Alcorn_) before "characteristic"; do not accept or prompt on "(being) gay" or "transvestite" or "transsexual" or "cross dresser" or any answer that includes the word "drag")
2015 HSNCT round 8 wrote:This country was the subject of a 2012 Thomas Friedman op-ed that claimed it "needs its own dream." Balram Halwai writes a letter to this country's premier in the novel The White Tiger. Gavin Menzies claimed this country's explorers visited America in the pseudoscience book (*) 1421, which speculates on the voyages of the Yongle Emperor's court eunuch, Zheng He. For 10 points--what country's capital is Beijing?
2015 HSNCT round 24 wrote:Steve Drain is the spokesman for this group, whose actions inspired the creation of the Patriot Guard Riders. A 2010 Supreme Court case found in favor of this group against Albert Snyder, affirming that sidewalks are public areas even in cases of (*) "outrageous" speech. The recently deceased Fred Phelps founded--for 10 points--what group based in Kansas and known for picketing military funerals to protest homosexuality?

answer: _Westboro Baptist_ Church (or _WBC_; prompt on "Westboro")
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by UlyssesInvictus » Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:20 pm

Matthew J wrote:
Al Hirt wrote:I actually don't think too much of his work, but he's well associated with China. A description involving his work would have served the same purpose. That being said, it wasn't an egregious mishap or anything.
I don't really agree that merely hearing "Thomas Friedman wrote an article about this place" is enough to get any player to one answer. The man writes about a bazillion different places.
I agree with Matt J, but even if you did correctly guess China off of just hearing Friedman, isn't that a proper way of rewarding knowledge and having read Friedman?
Al Hirt wrote:Could I actually see the China tossup with the Friedman clue and the Westboro Baptist Church tossup? That might help clear up my own confusion for the former, and I just thought the latter was very well written
Also, I think I wrote the WBC one, so thanks :D I thought I'd written this nearly two years ago though, so it's a surprise to see it finally show up now.
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by Kyle » Thu Jun 04, 2015 5:07 pm

In last year's HSNCT, there was a bonus (which I edited) whose hard part was to say the phrase "Chinese dream." The prompt happened to mention, in addition to some more relevant information, that Xi Jinping's appropriation of this phrase was apparently inspired by a Thomas Friedman editorial. The context in which the phrase "Chinese dream" is most important -- and, consequently, most commonly asked about in quizbowl -- is as a way of describing a Chinese ideology promoted by Xi Jinping. The fact that Thomas Friedman inadvertently seems to have coined the term is a different context, and that's the one that was asked by this miscellaneous/multi-subject tossup in this year's HSNCT. I do think this is slightly easier than the clue that followed it this year, but in general I think it's a fine idea to flip around the context in which something had previously been asked and ask it in a slightly more difficult way the following year. So I don't really have a problem with this being in the lead-in.
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by Corry » Thu Jun 04, 2015 5:32 pm

Kyle wrote:In last year's HSNCT, there was a bonus (which I edited) whose hard part was to say the phrase "Chinese dream." The prompt happened to mention, in addition to some more relevant information, that Xi Jinping's appropriation of this phrase was apparently inspired by a Thomas Friedman editorial. The context in which the phrase "Chinese dream" is most important -- and, consequently, most commonly asked about in quizbowl -- is as a way of describing a Chinese ideology promoted by Xi Jinping. The fact that Thomas Friedman inadvertently seems to have coined the term is a different context, and that's the one that was asked by this miscellaneous/multi-subject tossup in this year's HSNCT. I do think this is slightly easier than the clue that followed it this year, but in general I think it's a fine idea to flip around the context in which something had previously been asked and ask it in a slightly more difficult way the following year. So I don't really have a problem with this being in the lead-in.
I wrote this year's tossup on China. FYI the order of the lead-in on Friedman and the second sentence on White Tiger was originally flipped, but the editor swapped the order.
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by Valefor » Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:34 pm

I'll pipe up here as the editor of both the questions on China and being transgender.

In the case of the China tossup, I simply felt that the Thomas Friedman clue was more difficult than the ensuing clue; it seemed to me that "white tiger" + "premier" was easier to get to China off of than Friedman--who, as Matt and others have pointed out, writes about many, many different things.

As for the transgender tossup, Leelah Alcorn's suicide note claimed she cried of happiness when she learned what the word "transgender"--specifically--meant. I also couldn't find any instance among multiple sources of Jenner using the term "transsexual" self-referentially. In addition, as Isaac pointed out, the two terms do mean different things.

On a note unrelated to those two questions, I wrote the "dark and stormy night" tossup, and I'm glad you enjoyed it! It was a lot of fun to write. :)
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by Al Hirt » Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:43 pm

It was the year that seemed to make it clear to me. Mr. Thompson who was moderating was finishing the sentence as I buzzed, so I think at this point it seems to just have been my confidence and luck on overdrive as opposed to a poor lead in. My apologies.

We didn't convert the transgender toss up as Colonel By out buzzed us for a power, but if there ever was a timely place to toss it up, it was then. That was great to hear and definitely creative.
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by The Polebarn Hotel » Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:23 pm

The Stately Rhododendron wrote:
Sic Semper Fidelis wrote:Can I see the TU over transgender people? I negged it with transsexual so I'd like to see it again to figure out what made my answer wrong. Also, can I see the Melee bonus round because I love that game?
Transsexual and Transgender mean different things in the sense that gender and sex are different.
Transgenderism is just an umbrella term referring to people who experience gender dysphoria regarding their assigned gender. So what you're saying is inherently wrong, because transsexual people are most certainly transgender. However, transgender as a term also includes agender, third gender, genderfluid, etc. people.

In this situation, I think that transsexual should have been at least promptable (or anti-promptable - I'm still not sure of the actual rule about that). Caitlyn Jenner is transsexual because she got surgeries and other procedures to alter her appearance so she could present herself as a woman. Leelah Alcorn had wanted to transition in this fashion, but the only thing (or things, rather) that stopped her were her Conservative Christian parents, so she never actually did it but she presented herself as female. I would definitely accept transsexual in this tossup even though Leelah was technically not transsexual. It should certainly be promptable. It's not as wrong as "Ode to a Grecian Urn."

As for Leelah learning of that specific word... I suppose it would make sense to neg it after that. I hadn't seen that comment when I wrote the paragraph. However, I still want to clear up the misconception. As for Caitlyn Jenner not self-identifying as transsexual, I don't necessarily think that matters. She's transsexual by the definition of the word.
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by Kasper Kaijanen » Thu Jun 04, 2015 10:43 pm

What were the conversion statistics for the TU over Nicholas Nickleby?
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by heterodyne » Thu Jun 04, 2015 10:48 pm

Transsexual is generally not a word that's preferred by trans people, btw, but it's still used by some media outlets and in conversation by some, so it probably should be acceptable.
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by Important Bird Area » Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:05 pm

Sic Semper Fidelis wrote:What were the conversion statistics for the TU over Nicholas Nickleby?
Conversion statistics (in general) have not been tabulated yet. I'll post a new thread when they're ready.
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by alexdz » Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:08 pm

heterodyne wrote:Transsexual is generally not a word that's preferred by trans people, btw, but it's still used by some media outlets and in conversation by some, so it probably should be acceptable.
This is generally my feeling on the matter at hand as well. While I'm not certain that either Leelah or Caitlyn identifies themselves as transsexual, in the context of the question it should probably have been acceptable or at least promptable. To the best of my knowledge, the trans community doesn't use the word either, but it's probably still common enough outside the LGBTQ community.
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by Corry » Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:14 pm

I just remembered something else-- this is the third year in a row that HSNCT has tossed up Measure for Measure. Every time, the conversion stats are pretty cruddy: 17% conversion in 2013 prelims and 47% in 2014 playoffs. So why do we keep tossing it up?! (This is more a rhetorical question than anything else)
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by jonah » Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:25 pm

Corry wrote:I just remembered something else-- this is the third year in a row that HSNCT has tossed up Measure for Measure. Every time, the conversion stats are pretty cruddy: 17% conversion in 2013 prelims and 47% in 2014 playoffs. So why do we keep tossing it up?! (This is more a rhetorical question than anything else)
Maybe people should read Measure for Measure! The tossups will continue until conversion improves!

We don't systematically repeat-check HSNCTs against previous HSNCTs for a variety of reasons — it's difficult, it's time-consuming, the time would be better spent other ways, and perhaps most notably, every HSNCT requires so many questions that if we did inter-HSNCT repeat checking, we'd very quickly run out of difficulty-appropriate stuff to ask. (We are already up against that even within a single year!)

That said, if I had noticed that this was the third consecutive year with a Measure for Measure tossup, I probably would have bounced it.
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by Important Bird Area » Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:53 pm

Sic Semper Fidelis wrote:Also, can I see the Melee bonus round because I love that game?
2015 HSNCT round 25 wrote:For 10 points each--give the following about the second game in the Super Smash Bros. series:

A. This best-selling 2001 release for the Nintendo GameCube introduced the characters Falco, Roy, and Marth to the Super Smash Bros. series.

answer: Super Smash Bros. _Melee_ (prompt on "SSBM")

B. Roy and Marth originally appeared in this game series. Subtitles of games in this series include "The Sacred Stones" and "Awakening."

answer: _Fire Emblem_ (accept _Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones_ or _Fire Emblem: Awakening_)

C. This Pokemon can chain together aerial attacks in a "wall of pain" technique, and can KO at low percentages with its Rest move.

answer: _Jigglypuff_
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by Considered Harmful » Fri Jun 05, 2015 5:15 pm

Can I see the China/opera bonus (Turandot/something/Nixon in China)?
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by Important Bird Area » Fri Jun 05, 2015 5:42 pm

2015 HSNCT round 13 wrote:For 10 points each--answer these questions about the overlap of China and opera:

A. Prince Calaf solves three riddles posed by a Chinese princess in what unfinished opera by Giacomo Puccini?

answer: _Turandot_

B. What 1993 Chen Kaige film follows two Peking opera performers through the turmoil of World War II and the Cultural Revolution?

answer: _Farewell My Concubine_ (or _Bawang Bie Ji_)

C. "The Chairman Dances" is an orchestral work inspired by this first opera by John Adams, about a presidential visit to China.

answer: _Nixon in China_
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by yeah viv talk nah » Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:08 pm

Could I see the cricket bonus? I wasn't at HSNCT, so I just want to see what I missed :(
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by Important Bird Area » Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:13 pm

2015 HSNCT round 5 wrote:Shane Warne and Muttiah Muralitharan both played this sport. For 10 points each--

A. Name this bat-and-ball sport, popular in Commonwealth nations.

answer: _cricket_

A. Both Warne and Muralitharan were primarily known for their prowess at this position analogous to a pitcher in baseball. Players at this position may employ off-spin or deliver a googly.

answer: _bowler_

C. Warne hailed from this country, which contests the "Ashes" with England.

answer: (Commonwealth of) _Australia_
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by thedodgerswin » Sat Sep 26, 2015 5:06 pm

Can someone explain to me why Arcadia was declared the winner and why LASA A only had to play 17 games to Arcadia's 19? LASA A had better stats than Arcadia, and beat them once in the playoffs. In fact, can someone let me know the statistical mechanics of the HSNCT in general? I am sure it would be very interesting, how to rank 272 teams with only 19 games - can the high school players who won this tell me? Maybe the BCS should take note. Haha.

Do I understand correctly, that Arcadia played a tournament that used ICT sets, and outperformed all of the Div II ICT teams, even the champions? Was this a particularly impressive group of students? I guess Div II ICT means nothing. That's why Shantanu Jha didn't even bother playing that. Instead, he helped Chicago win ICT Div I in 2009. What an amazing player! Tyler Smith led my team to a Div II victory. I think he was a superior high-school player as well.

Does NAQT want to change it's power-setting philosophy? In my opinion, a power should be an extremely rare occurrence, worthy of genuine self-esteem, not a regular occurrence, where teams get more powers than 10s.

Did Ken Jennings moderate this tournament? Any other famous people?
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by thedodgerswin » Sat Sep 26, 2015 5:14 pm

I'd say anything written by Shakespeare is fair game for a nationals tournament. It's the players' fault for not knowing his works.
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by That DCC guy » Sat Sep 26, 2015 5:34 pm

thedodgerswin wrote:Can someone explain to me why Arcadia was declared the winner and why LASA A only had to play 17 games to Arcadia's 19? LASA A had better stats than Arcadia, and beat them once in the playoffs. ?
Not entirely true Arcadia had far more powers than LASA did and technically the team with the best stats was my team, DCC, with most points per game and most powers, but we got third. But for some reason each time we played Arcadia we got destroyed, so stats don't tell the whole story especially at HSNCT it more or less just matters on what packet your playing and who your playing against. For example at PACE we, DCC, did not necessarily have the best stats but we won the tournament. In fact a lot of people would say that Arcadia had the best stats at PACE but got 9th. So having the best stats does not translate into, who will win the tournament necessarily.

As for why LASA A only had to play 17 games, it's the playoff seeding system put in place at HSNCT. So by winning the winners bracket in the playoffs LASA gets a bye straight to the final four were no matter what, and are also guaranteed to be in the championship match even if they lose that final four game, which happened with DCC. And when that happens DCC would play the winner of the other final four game to see who gets to go to the championship which just so happened to be Arcadia. If they had beaten DCC then Arcadia would have played one less game and it would still be a Arcadia Lasa final match. So once we get to the final four match LASA will have only played 15 games as a reward for winning the winners' playoff bracket, while the other 3 teams will have to play a certain allotment of games depending on where they lost in the winners' playoff bracket. I'm not the best at explaining how the brackets work but that's how I understand them
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by Important Bird Area » Sat Sep 26, 2015 6:01 pm

thedodgerswin wrote:Can someone explain to me why Arcadia was declared the winner and why LASA A only had to play 17 games to Arcadia's 19? LASA A had better stats than Arcadia, and beat them once in the playoffs.
Take a look at the HSNCT playoff bracket for details.

HSNCT Sunday is a double-elimination tournament. The bracket is set up such that by the lunch break, there are seven remaining teams. One of those teams is undefeated; the remaining six have one loss each.

In round 23, the following teams are matched up:

4 vs. 5 (DCC def. Western Albemarle)
2 vs. 7 (Arcadia def. Solon)
3 vs. 6 (IMSA def. Maggie Walker)
(undefeated team 1, LASA, has a bye; Arcadia gets one extra game played here)

In round 24, there are four remaining teams:

undefeated 1 vs. 4
2 vs. 3

If the undefeated team wins in round 24, it gains the advantage in an advantaged final over the winner of the 2 vs. 3 game (and the two teams that lost in round 24 play in the third-place game).

If the undefeated team loses in round 24, there are three remaining teams with one loss each. In that case, the two round 24 winners play each other in round 25 (semifinal) for the right to play the #1 seed in round 26. (Both are one-game setups; the team that was undefeated through round 23 gets the round 25 bye because it was the last team to lose its first playoff game.)
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by Important Bird Area » Sat Sep 26, 2015 6:06 pm

thedodgerswin wrote:Does NAQT want to change its power-setting philosophy? In my opinion, a power should be an extremely rare occurrence, worthy of genuine self-esteem, not a regular occurrence, where teams get more powers than 10s.
We're content with the current rate of powers at HSNCT. In general, "teams getting more powers than 10s" is still a very rare event (I count 14 teams that accomplished this at the 2015 HSNCT). If we made powers stingier such that no one accomplished this, it would make it nearly impossible for teams near the bottom of the field to ever power anything.
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by thedodgerswin » Sat Sep 26, 2015 9:41 pm

bird bird bird bird bird wrote:
thedodgerswin wrote:Does NAQT want to change its power-setting philosophy? In my opinion, a power should be an extremely rare occurrence, worthy of genuine self-esteem, not a regular occurrence, where teams get more powers than 10s.
We're content with the current rate of powers at HSNCT. In general, "teams getting more powers than 10s" is still a very rare event (I count 14 teams that accomplished this at the 2015 HSNCT). If we made powers stingier such that no one accomplished this, it would make it nearly impossible for teams near the bottom of the field to ever power anything.

I guess that speaks to the obnoxious disparity of talent (and other attributes) that exists in quizbowl, and in life really. Were people ever really meant to be equal?

Did DCC, LASA, Arcadia, and others just work harder than everyone else? That's impressive. I hope colleges are impressed, haha. Do you plan to continue playing quizbowl, in college? Maybe the Chicago Open will be a challenge for you, haha.

I would think it should be unusual to have more powers than negs, let alone regular tossups. People make mistakes FAAAAAR more often than they have glorious achievements. Here, you have to go down to the 77th-ranked team, to find one with more negs than powers. I remember some tournaments where a person might get a power somewhere in that whole tournament, and have to ask, really, there were powers in this tournament? I guess NAQT is designed to be more fun than that, lol
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by thedodgerswin » Sun Sep 27, 2015 1:52 am

bird bird bird bird bird wrote:
thedodgerswin wrote:Can someone explain to me why Arcadia was declared the winner and why LASA A only had to play 17 games to Arcadia's 19? LASA A had better stats than Arcadia, and beat them once in the playoffs.
Take a look at the HSNCT playoff bracket for details.

HSNCT Sunday is a double-elimination tournament. The bracket is set up such that by the lunch break, there are seven remaining teams. One of those teams is undefeated; the remaining six have one loss each.

In round 23, the following teams are matched up:

4 vs. 5 (DCC def. Western Albemarle)
2 vs. 7 (Arcadia def. Solon)
3 vs. 6 (IMSA def. Maggie Walker)
(undefeated team 1, LASA, has a bye; Arcadia gets one extra game played here)

In round 24, there are four remaining teams:

undefeated 1 vs. 4
2 vs. 3

If the undefeated team wins in round 24, it gains the advantage in an advantaged final over the winner of the 2 vs. 3 game (and the two teams that lost in round 24 play in the third-place game).

If the undefeated team loses in round 24, there are three remaining teams with one loss each. In that case, the two round 24 winners play each other in round 25 (semifinal) for the right to play the #1 seed in round 26. (Both are one-game setups; the team that was undefeated through round 23 gets the round 25 bye because it was the last team to lose its first playoff game.)
Thanks for the breakdown, Jeff. I suppose you are right. Personally, I think it would be more satisfying to use tennis rules, make Arcadia beat LASA with 2 fewer losses. Maybe that was not possible. Arcadia pulled itself up by its britches to avoid ever having a second loss. Definitely ate their Wheaties on Sunday. Congratulations!

So, teams play 10 rounds on day one? Is this like the GMAT, you win, you play a winner next round, etc. so that by the end of the day, the best teams are also playing the best teams, just naturally? Can we attribute the unexpected losses in day one, to the fact that the students are tired or something? Weird. I guess NAQT games just induce strange occurences like this? Day two, the top nine teams get a break. The rest play ONE game, to get seeded in the winners bracket (chance to win) and losers' bracket. then it's just a single-elimination bracket? After the FIRST single-elimination bracket, the top seven teams play in a deathmarch until everyone but the champion has lost for the second time? Makes perfect sense. Thanks again.

Unlucky LASA A, had they defeated DCC in round 24, they would have had a 2-game advantaged final against Arcadia? The recorded game, LASA A v. LASA B was just an exhibition match?

Furthermore, every team that lost once fell into the losers bracket, for a chance to redeem themselves, and a chance for the other losers to get up into the winners bracket? Thanks.

Is it a better tournament when you get enough teams and staffers to have 32 teams in the winners bracket?

It looks like IMSA had a really good day though, almost came from relative obscurity to play in the finals.
Last edited by thedodgerswin on Sun Sep 27, 2015 2:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by Important Bird Area » Sun Sep 27, 2015 2:27 am

thedodgerswin wrote: Thanks for the breakdown, Jeff. I suppose you are right. Personally, I think it would be more satisfying to use tennis rules, make Arcadia beat LASA with 2 fewer losses. Maybe that was not possible.
Here's the HSNCT format document.

Variable numbers of Sunday games are not logistically feasible. (Both because NAQT needs to write a defined number of packets and because teams need to make travel plans to return home from the tournament. No one wants this kind of thing to happen at a quizbowl tournament.)
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by jonah » Sun Sep 27, 2015 5:42 am

thedodgerswin wrote:So, teams play 10 rounds on day one?
Ten games over the course of sixteen rounds (i.e., each team has six byes).
thedodgerswin wrote:Is this like the GMAT, you win, you play a winner next round, etc. so that by the end of the day, the best teams are also playing the best teams, just naturally?
To a very rough approximation, yes, though with 272 teams, after each team has played four games there are 17 undefeated teams, so one of them will have to play a 3-1 team, etc.
thedodgerswin wrote:Can we attribute the unexpected losses in day one, to the fact that the students are tired or something?
You can attribute it to whatever you like :-) but I would hazard a guess that the topics that happen to come up in the packet and how well players know them plays a larger role, though personal factors (of which fatigue is one) almost certainly do have an impact.
thedodgerswin wrote:I guess NAQT games just induce strange occurences like this?
That's not technically a false statement, but it suggests that NAQT games are more prone to chance than some unspecified baseline of comparison (quizbowl games in general? competition in general?), which I haven't seen any evidence for (though it is certainly possible). In fact, upsets occur in every competitive activity of which I am aware. I suspect that quizbowl is less prone to upsets than many. For instance, if the best team in MLB plays ten games against the worst team in MLB, the worst team has an excellent shot to win a couple of them; if the best team at the HSNCT plays ten games against the worst team at the HSNCT, I would bet a large sum of money that the best team goes 10–0 (if I were a betting man and had a large sum of money).
thedodgerswin wrote:Day two, the top nine teams get a break. The rest play ONE game, to get seeded in the winners bracket (chance to win) and losers' bracket. then it's just a single-elimination bracket? After the FIRST single-elimination bracket, the top seven teams play in a deathmarch until everyone but the champion has lost for the second time? Makes perfect sense. Thanks again.
Not really. The document Jeff linked to has more details, but the gist is that it's double-elimination, with teams who went 6–4 on Saturday starting in the losers' bracket, and when we get down to one winners' bracket team and three losers' bracket teams, we play a "cross-bracketed match" (winners' bracket team against lowest-seeded losers' bracket team) to accelerate things.
thedodgerswin wrote:Unlucky LASA A, had they defeated DCC in round 24, they would have had a 2-game advantaged final against Arcadia?
I'm not sure that "unlucky" is accurate, but it is true that had LASA A won its round 24 game against DCC A (and had Arcadia still beaten IMSA), LASA A would have had a one-game advantage in a final against Arcadia.
thedodgerswin wrote:The recorded game, LASA A v. LASA B was just an exhibition match?
I don't know what match you are referring to. As you can see at its results page, LASA A never played LASA B at the 2015 HSNCT, and there is no recorded match between those two teams. Are you thinking of a match between LASA A and LASA B that was recorded at the 2014 HSNCT during round 25 (and which was the first game of the finals)?
thedodgerswin wrote:Furthermore, every team that lost once fell into the losers bracket, for a chance to redeem themselves,
This is correct.
thedodgerswin wrote:and a chance for the other losers to get up into the winners bracket?
This is not. No team can ever go from the losers' bracket to the winners' bracket; rather, either (exactly) one team will go undefeated in the playoffs (which last happened in 2010) or the winners' bracket will eventually vanish, i.e., all remaining teams will have lost one game.
thedodgerswin wrote:Is it a better tournament when you get enough teams and staffers to have 32 teams in the winners bracket?
Define "better tournament" :-). And 32 as of when? We are nearing the point where increasing the field size will necessitate an additional playoff round; I don't remember offhand whether that would involve a winners' bracket of 32 teams at some point, but I do know that 28+48 (winners' bracket + losers' bracket) works particularly well, since the sizes in subsequent rounds go 14+38, 7+26 (bye needed in the winners' bracket), 4+16, 2+10, 1+6 (bye needed in the winners' bracket), 1+3, at which point the cross-bracketed game is played—in other words, there are very few byes, and in particular no byes in the losers' bracket, which would create perverse incentives.
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by Dominator » Sun Sep 27, 2015 10:11 am

thedodgerswin wrote:It looks like IMSA had a really good day though, almost came from relative obscurity to play in the finals.
I'm not sure we can say that IMSA came from "relative obscurity". IMSA had a top 20 finish in each of the last 4 HSNCTs at that point, a streak only topped by LASA.

This sounds more like a case of a poster coming from obscurity to me.
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Re: 2015 HSNCT discussion

Post by thedodgerswin » Sun Sep 27, 2015 11:58 am

Dominator wrote:
thedodgerswin wrote:It looks like IMSA had a really good day though, almost came from relative obscurity to play in the finals.
I'm not sure we can say that IMSA came from "relative obscurity". IMSA had a top 20 finish in each of the last 4 HSNCTs at that point, a streak only topped by LASA.

This sounds more like a case of a poster coming from obscurity to me.

I'd say a team that starts in position 22 would not be expected to be two rounds away from winning the championship.
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