2016 nAC

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2016 nAC

Postby the return of AHAN » Tue Jun 07, 2016 2:47 pm

In the New Orleans phase, Harrison (IN) defeated White Plains (NY), 285-260 to claim the HS Varsity phase and will play in Chicago this weekend. In the "Junior varsity" tournament, Gadsden (AL) reportedly defeated Altamont (SC), 340-215. And in the Middle School level, Paideia (GA) defeated Lux (NE), 365-305.
In the Washington DC phase, Briarcliffe (NY) defeated Lakewood (OH), 320-305, earning the distinction of being the first 'small school' to win the nAC title, according to the QU web site. At the JV level, West Chester East (PA) defeated Central Bucks East (PA), by a score of 265-85. Personally, if team size has anything to do with success, then West Chester East certainly is a juggernaut, judging by the photo on the QU site!
In the DC phase, it seems that Wooster (OH) defeated Grace (Saipan), 395-240, though I can't be 100% sure as the only photo the site loads for that result is the Saipan team posing with a trophy AND Chip Beall and Jason Russell. Maybe someone who was there can clarify. Maybe Wooster is attention averse and doesn't want their photo published?**
This weekend, the nAC goes head-to-head with National Middle School History Bee & Bowl in Rosemont, IL. As best I can tell, there appears to be a single IL high school, Palatine, registered, and three middle schools; Palatine Quest, Champaign Next Generation, and Springfield Franklin. The latter three all won trophies at the IESA State Finals last month, while Palatine HS went 1-1 in single-elimination IHSA State Series play, claiming a 1-0 forfeit win over Wheeling, before succumbing to a very good Prospect HS team, 390-320, in the regional semifinals, ultimately won be Fremd.

edit: Added state for Lux per Justin's comment below.
Edit#2: ** Wooster's photo now loads.
Last edited by the return of AHAN on Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby nitzuga » Tue Jun 07, 2016 3:51 pm

Hello everyone, I was part of the winning Harrison team at New Orleans. I'll answer questions you all might have about my experience. If you need proof, I got a selfie with the man himself.

:chip: :party:
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby jonpin » Tue Jun 07, 2016 4:25 pm

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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby J. Young » Tue Jun 07, 2016 4:32 pm

FYI Lux is from Nebraska. According to the QU website, there were three Nebraska teams at the JNAC.
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby the return of AHAN » Tue Jun 07, 2016 4:50 pm

nitzuga wrote:Hello everyone, I was part of the winning Harrison team at New Orleans. I'll answer questions you all might have about my experience. If you need proof, I got a selfie with the man himself.

:chip: :party:


How many matches did you play? What was the longest wait you had between rounds?

Where do you suppose your team ranks nationally, relative to other teams? Top 5? Top 20?
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby nitzuga » Tue Jun 07, 2016 5:07 pm

Excellent question Mr. Pinyan; I am not entirely sure myself but I believe it has to do with (1) tradition, and (2) the belief of some members on our team that playing a variety of formats is inherently better than focusing on one. If anyone is interested in discussing this issue over PM that's cool with me; I'd rather discuss my experience at the event on this thread. Trust me, I am aware of the benefits of pyramidal questions and have on many occasions suggested more pyramidal tournaments for us to attend (including HSNCT/NSC but that did not work out this year).

Mr. Price, we participated in 6 "preliminary" rounds and then 3 playoff matches. Preliminary rounds were not power matched or regrouped, but playoffs were seeded like usual. "Longest wait" depends on what you mean. The preliminary matches are scattered over 2 days which means 80% of those days are not actually spent playing, but Chip's team stuck surprisingly close to the schedule. I don't remember having to wait more than ~15 minutes, which is not bad compared to other tournaments I've been to. By far the most embarrassing thing I witnessed was when the readers had to consult the coaches at the end of the first round about the score because they had seemingly forgotten to keep track of the score themselves. (This was in the finals.) How such an oversight could be made is beyond me.

I am well aware that we are not top 5 or top 20, in fact the notion that I would even think we are is almost a little insulting. :grin: However, I'd say we are a little underrated in HSQB rank, which is to be expected when you only play 2 pyramidal tournaments with a full A team. Maybe top 100.
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby the return of AHAN » Tue Jun 07, 2016 5:31 pm

nitzuga wrote:Mr. Price, we participated in 6 "preliminary" rounds and then 3 playoff matches. Preliminary rounds were not power matched or regrouped, but playoffs were seeded like usual. "Longest wait" depends on what you mean. The preliminary matches are scattered over 2 days which means 80% of those days are not actually spent playing, but Chip's team stuck surprisingly close to the schedule. I don't remember having to wait more than ~15 minutes, which is not bad compared to other tournaments I've been to. By far the most embarrassing thing I witnessed was when the readers had to consult the coaches at the end of the first round about the score because they had seemingly forgotten to keep track of the score themselves. (This was in the finals.) How such an oversight could be made is beyond me.

I meant between games, as in you finished a game at, say, 1:30 PM and your next game was at...? Thus, giving you time to kill. I'm confused about the 'readers' statement. Do two different people read during a match? Is there not a dedicated scorekeeper? Maybe they WERE keeping the score but zoned out on one question and felt the need to ensure they had the score right? I'm just spitballing here because having a scorekeeper (who has ONE job) just spectating for an entire half is a bridge too far in my mind.

I did think of something else regarding prelims... Did you have pools where each team plays everyone in their pool? Or are there just 6 randomly assigned opponents? When looking over their on-line schedules (see Chicago JrNAC), it seems there aren't pools and wonder how opponents are determined. For example, I see Danville Bate (a solid program from KY) playing in Chicago this weekend and they've drawn matches against Springfield Franklin AND Champaign Next Generation (talk about a bad draw for Bate), yet Franklin and Next Gen don't play each other.
nitzuga wrote:I am well aware that we are not top 5 or top 20, in fact the notion that I would even think we are is almost a little insulting. :grin: However, I'd say we are a little underrated in HSQB rank, which is to be expected when you only play 2 pyramidal tournaments with a full A team. Maybe top 100.

AH, I didn't realize Harrison was included in HSQB rank.
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby Father Comstock » Tue Jun 07, 2016 5:33 pm

I understand the disdain for NAC, but the lack of pyramidal tournaments in Indiana is a leading cause of us playing NAC, it's a real bummer. Also as stated, our coach (who is fantastic at her job) has an appreciation for NAC as well as an appreciation for NAQT so we play both. My philosophy is to play as much Quiz Bowl as I want, it's about the fun, not about the "integrity" of questions. However, I would certainly say this year's NAC nationals was one of the better run NAC tournaments I've been to, and the 3000 dollar winning prize (which hopefully will be put to more pyramidal tournaments such as PACE and NAQT nationals) will be worth not being in Dallas this Memorial Day Weekend. :grin:
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby nitzuga » Tue Jun 07, 2016 5:45 pm

the return of AHAN wrote:I meant between games, as in you finished a game at, say, 1:30 PM and your next game was at...?

The longest? I think 6 hours. On one hand, this was enough time to go wander the streets of New Orleans, which was fun but I'd rather be competing during the competition days.
the return of AHAN wrote:I'm confused about the 'readers' statement.

For all of the matches except our finals there was a single person doing both the reading and scoring. That went fine. In the finals, Chip was reading and 2 other people were also present, presumably reading along and controlling the computer (for audio and visual questions) and supposedly scorekeeping. It is possible that there was a discrepancy over the score; that seems more reasonable, but that's not really what it sounded like at the moment.
the return of AHAN wrote:Did you have pools where each team plays everyone in their pool? Or are there just 6 randomly assigned opponents?

The latter.
the return of AHAN wrote:AH, I didn't realize Harrison was included in HSQB rank.

Ouch. (Edit: Clarification: Not actually offended.)

Father Comstock wrote:

While I agree with much of what Ben said in this case, please note that his opinions do not always reflect those of our quiz bowl program as a whole (or mine).
Last edited by nitzuga on Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby the return of AHAN » Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:23 pm

nitzuga wrote:
the return of AHAN wrote:
the return of AHAN wrote:AH, I didn't realize Harrison was included in HSQB rank.

Ouch.

Wasn't trying to needle you. As a middle school coach, I don't pay much attention to HSQB rankings, aside from maybe checking where my alumni (Barrington HS & IMSA) rank, and even then I don't linger on the page.
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby bluejay123 » Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:16 pm

Father Comstock wrote:3000 dollar winning prize


Lucky...
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby Vissi d'arte » Wed Jun 08, 2016 6:02 pm

Father Comstock wrote:I understand the disdain for NAC, but the lack of pyramidal tournaments in Indiana is a leading cause of us playing NAC, it's a real bummer.


Assuming you are the same Harrison I read for at JCPS Pre-Nats this year, the University of Louisville--and now, JCPS as well, it seems--host fall and spring events on pyramidal questions. I think I can safely say they'd love to have you all down to Louisville to play more next year! You all were a fun team to read for, and you're a competitive group with some very talented players. :smile:

In addition, depending on where you are in Indiana, the University of Kentucky and Western Kentucky University also generally host fall and spring events, if those are within driving distance for you.
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby alexdz » Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:10 pm

You'd be welcome to some events over in Illinois as well - such as the University of Illinois' tournaments!
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby Rococo A Go Go » Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:13 pm

Vissi d'arte wrote:
Father Comstock wrote:I understand the disdain for NAC, but the lack of pyramidal tournaments in Indiana is a leading cause of us playing NAC, it's a real bummer.


Assuming you are the same Harrison I read for at JCPS Pre-Nats this year, the University of Louisville--and now, JCPS as well, it seems--host fall and spring events on pyramidal questions. I think I can safely say they'd love to have you all down to Louisville to play more next year! You all were a fun team to read for, and you're a competitive group with some very talented players. :smile:

In addition, depending on where you are in Indiana, the University of Kentucky and Western Kentucky University also generally host fall and spring events, if those are within driving distance for you.


We'll be glad to welcome however many Indiana teams that want to attend. I have some short-term goals about improving the circuit in the Louisville metro, but in the long-term engaging Southern Indiana (which was once described to me as a "quizbowl desert") might be something we look into.

As for the NAC, it appears that 3 Kentucky teams (Campbell County, Daviess County, and Henderson County) are attending. Those three are actually pretty good on everything from quick recall to good quizbowl, so I would not at all be surprised to see one break through and get to at least the semifinals. However the atrocious structure of the tournament and the questions means that, regardless of who is the best team, the results might not bear it out well.
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby scholarhillery » Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:31 pm

Vissi d'arte wrote:I think I can safely say they'd love to have you all down to Louisville to play more next year!

alexdz wrote:You'd be welcome to some events over in Illinois as well - such as the University of Illinois' tournaments!

Ferlinghetti's Axis wrote:We'll be glad to welcome however many Indiana teams that want to attend.

I think one of our goals for next year is raising enough money to go to tournaments that might require us to stay in a hotel for a night or two. It would be great to continue to play better teams using better/harder questions.

-Harrison player
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby Father Comstock » Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:34 pm

Ferlinghetti's Axis wrote:
Vissi d'arte wrote:
Father Comstock wrote:I understand the disdain for NAC, but the lack of pyramidal tournaments in Indiana is a leading cause of us playing NAC, it's a real bummer.


Assuming you are the same Harrison I read for at JCPS Pre-Nats this year, the University of Louisville--and now, JCPS as well, it seems--host fall and spring events on pyramidal questions. I think I can safely say they'd love to have you all down to Louisville to play more next year! You all were a fun team to read for, and you're a competitive group with some very talented players. :smile:

In addition, depending on where you are in Indiana, the University of Kentucky and Western Kentucky University also generally host fall and spring events, if those are within driving distance for you.


We'll be glad to welcome however many Indiana teams that want to attend. I have some short-term goals about improving the circuit in the Louisville metro, but in the long-term engaging Southern Indiana (which was once described to me as a "quizbowl desert") might be something we look into.

As for the NAC, it appears that 3 Kentucky teams (Campbell County, Daviess County, and Henderson County) are attending. Those three are actually pretty good on everything from quick recall to good quizbowl, so I would not at all be surprised to see one break through and get to at least the semifinals. However the atrocious structure of the tournament and the questions means that, regardless of who is the best team, the results might not bear it out well.


We aren't from Southern Indiana, we're from Lafayette but luckily we're an hour ahead so the 3.5 hour drive is doable and definitely welcomed to see some pyramids. :wink:
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby scholarhillery » Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:35 pm

Father Comstock wrote:...but luckily we're an hour ahead...

not true...
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby Father Comstock » Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:25 pm

scholarhillery wrote:
Father Comstock wrote:...but luckily we're an hour ahead...

not true...


Oops that is embarrassing.
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby steve_b12 » Thu Jun 09, 2016 4:34 pm

Father Comstock wrote:I understand the disdain for NAC, but the lack of pyramidal tournaments in Indiana is a leading cause of us playing NAC, it's a real bummer. Also as stated, our coach (who is fantastic at her job) has an appreciation for NAC as well as an appreciation for NAQT so we play both. My philosophy is to play as much Quiz Bowl as I want, it's about the fun, not about the "integrity" of questions. However, I would certainly say this year's NAC nationals was one of the better run NAC tournaments I've been to, and the 3000 dollar winning prize (which hopefully will be put to more pyramidal tournaments such as PACE and NAQT nationals) will be worth not being in Dallas this Memorial Day Weekend. :grin:


In terms of IN quiz bowl, the Culver Invitational happens each year at Culver Academy and draws some pretty good competition (DCC, Northmont, Tippecanoe, Culver, St. Joe). There's also a lot of great quiz bowl being played in the region. As mentioned previously there's Kentucky Fall/Spring in Lexington and the Hilltopper Invitational at WKU, as well as a lot of stuff in the Chicago area. Loyola Academy hosts a LIST/BASK mirror every year, Rockford Auburn mirrors Harvard Fall, NIU hosts mirrors of ACF Fall/BHSAT, and there was a MUT mirror at UChicago.
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby Father Comstock » Thu Jun 09, 2016 5:36 pm

steve_b12 wrote:
Father Comstock wrote:I understand the disdain for NAC, but the lack of pyramidal tournaments in Indiana is a leading cause of us playing NAC, it's a real bummer. Also as stated, our coach (who is fantastic at her job) has an appreciation for NAC as well as an appreciation for NAQT so we play both. My philosophy is to play as much Quiz Bowl as I want, it's about the fun, not about the "integrity" of questions. However, I would certainly say this year's NAC nationals was one of the better run NAC tournaments I've been to, and the 3000 dollar winning prize (which hopefully will be put to more pyramidal tournaments such as PACE and NAQT nationals) will be worth not being in Dallas this Memorial Day Weekend. :grin:


In terms of IN quiz bowl, the Culver Invitational happens each year at Culver Academy and draws some pretty good competition (DCC, Northmont, Tippecanoe, Culver, St. Joe). There's also a lot of great quiz bowl being played in the region. As mentioned previously there's Kentucky Fall/Spring in Lexington and the Hilltopper Invitational at WKU, as well as a lot of stuff in the Chicago area. Loyola Academy hosts a LIST/BASK mirror every year, Rockford Auburn mirrors Harvard Fall, NIU hosts mirrors of ACF Fall/BHSAT, and there was a MUT mirror at UChicago.


Would've loved to have come to the Culver Invitational but we had already played a tournament with the packet in use (CORRECTION: No we hadn't, I am confused. We asked to go that one, but we never did, I was under the impression that was the reason). Agustin is very helpful at correcting my posts... lol
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby nitzuga » Thu Jun 09, 2016 6:53 pm

On the topic of the NAC, I'd like to point out that I felt the general quality of the questions was improved over previous years. For example, there was a complete lack of multiple choice, matching, and spelling questions (yes those still exist... :cry:) this year, and the distribution was more academic than before. I did not hear a single cosmetics question, (in contrast to our league matches where I believe we averaged roughly one per match). In addition, "bonus round" tossups seem to be almost exclusively pyramidal now. On the other hand, the questions still have a long way to go. The frequency of errors and ambiguities is still too high for my liking, the distribution is wacky (Shakespeare makes up probably a third of the lit, religion is almost exclusively Bible knowledge), bonus round is the only one that consistently features pyramids, etc.

Mr. Thompson, Mr. Dzurick, Mr. Conder and Steve, thank you for the suggestions, I will keep them in mind when recommending tournaments for next year. Really though, our comparatively low participation at pyramidal events has less to do with what Ben said and more to do with a lack of funds and school administration red tape. I know of at least 2 pyramidal tournaments in IL we tried to attend but could not because of this. Somewhat ironically, those issues will hopefully be lessened next year with our success at NAC.
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby Ben Dillon » Thu Jun 09, 2016 11:26 pm

It's good to see Harrison players participating on the boards! However, I'm going to have to disagree with one of Ben's points:
Father Comstock wrote:I understand the disdain for NAC, but the lack of pyramidal tournaments in Indiana is a leading cause of us playing NAC, it's a real bummer. Also as stated, our coach (who is fantastic at her job) has an appreciation for NAC as well as an appreciation for NAQT so we play both.


Having been the St. Joe coach for more than twenty years as well as the historian for the state (through the INQBlots website), I believe I'm qualified to say that this statement is flatly untrue. Before the advent of NAQT and pyramidal quiz bowl in general, Questions Unlimited was basically the only game in town. Both the White River league and the St. Joseph Valley league used their questions. Both Harrison and St. Joe were regulars at NAC. In fact, I'm cited on QBWiki as helping Chip revise his rules.

It was the arrival of Phil Blessman at Culver Academies in 2004 that changed the equation. Suddenly there were multiple pyramidal tournaments within driving distance. At the same time, our league was persuaded to change question providers from QU to NAQT when Chip, after becoming tired of our organizer complaining about incorrect answers in his packets, offered to provide us with better questions that he would proof himself... for an extra fee. [You read that right. He wanted to charge us extra to ensure that answer lines would be correct.]

Within a few years, Culver and St. Joe stopped attending the "Classic State" tournament with QU. This boycott is certainly not because we're afraid of the competition. It is rather because neither of our schools is willing to support QU any more. Suffice it for me to summarize it as documented accounts of plagiarism, unprofessionalism, and question emphasis and quality: http://www.qbwiki.com/wiki/view/Criticisms_of_the_NAC. Also, St. Joe stopped attending NAC soon after finishing fifth in the nation one year, partly because I noticed that, although I would say I had an outstanding team, the level of our competitors was down. There were no DCCs, Dormans, Maggie Walkers, State Colleges, etc.

Meanwhile, the White River league continues to use QU. Because both Harrison and Zionsville have won NAC, there is no movement away from it. I do agree that your coach is fantastic, but I will add that she is devoted to QU. She has repeatedly held it up as the superior format. (For example, she says that NAQT questions discriminate against female players.)

Therefore, the lack of pyramidal tournaments is not the leading cause of you playing NAC. It's the fact that half the state as represented by the largest league thinks QU equals "quiz bowl".

Can this change? I've been working at it for a while, but I could use your persuasive abilities as players who have experienced both types.

By the way, good luck this weekend. Despite what you may have perceived from me throughout this post, I genuinely want Harrison to succeed!
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby cchiego » Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:45 am

nitzuga wrote:Really though, our comparatively low participation at pyramidal events has less to do with what Ben said and more to do with a lack of funds and school administration red tape.


You can be the change you wish to see in the world by 1. hosting tournaments on good pyramidal questions to raise $$ and 2. not patronizing expensive tournaments run on non-pyramidal questions. Like Ben, I don't want to be too hard on y'all since it's clearly not entirely your decision here, but Ben is exactly right about the need for teams aware of pyramidal questions to take responsibility and start pushing for change.

Also, it bears repeating every year because there's so little public information about nAC (compare this to the way NAQT and PACE members directly engage with the community on question content and tournament logistics/format), but the nAC is bad for all the reasons outlined in the QBwiki link that Ben posted and for all the reasons that old threads here on the forums point out every year. Feel free to do a quick search through the forum archives for "NAC" and you'll see the same old story every year of horrible questions, poor formatting, and other shenanigans. You'll even find one of Chip's former moderators getting fed up and publicly disavowing the nAC.

Every year we also hear something to the effect of "Chip has changed! he's getting pyramidal now! the questions aren't so bad!" Since it's hard to get ahold of these questions, it's usually difficult to tell until we hear from participants about audio questions on barnyard animal sounds. Fortunately, I found a bunch of Questions Unlimited practice questions from this year publicly posted online (not posting the link here because perhaps they'll be re-used as questions this year at NAC like Chip did last year--again, something that would be unthinkable at any real national championship) and they're horrendous. Hoses galore, multiple choice-style questions, factually incorrect questions, misleading and useless trivia, weird trends in the topics of the current events questions, and a few bizarre attempts at horribly done "pyramidal" questions. Again, compare this with the way that NAQT and PACE spend countless hours writing, editing, playtesting, and responding in public here to even the slightest faults in their questions--it's simply night and day.

I'll also take the time here to give major props to Coronado HS for abandoning the NAC this year and heading to HSNCT, where they were quite impressive in notching a top-10 finish against a loaded field. They're hopefully following in a long tradition of schools from Manheim Township, Middlesex MS, High Tech, and many, many others in recent years that rightfully realized that there are much better and fairer competitions out there for them to attend and became valuable members of the pyramidal quizbowl world.
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby Father Comstock » Fri Jun 10, 2016 8:40 am

Ben Dillon wrote:It's good to see Harrison players participating on the boards! However, I'm going to have to disagree with one of Ben's points:
Father Comstock wrote:I understand the disdain for NAC, but the lack of pyramidal tournaments in Indiana is a leading cause of us playing NAC, it's a real bummer. Also as stated, our coach (who is fantastic at her job) has an appreciation for NAC as well as an appreciation for NAQT so we play both.


Having been the St. Joe coach for more than twenty years as well as the historian for the state (through the INQBlots website), I believe I'm qualified to say that this statement is flatly untrue. Before the advent of NAQT and pyramidal quiz bowl in general, Questions Unlimited was basically the only game in town. Both the White River league and the St. Joseph Valley league used their questions. Both Harrison and St. Joe were regulars at NAC. In fact, I'm cited on QBWiki as helping Chip revise his rules.

It was the arrival of Phil Blessman at Culver Academies in 2004 that changed the equation. Suddenly there were multiple pyramidal tournaments within driving distance. At the same time, our league was persuaded to change question providers from QU to NAQT when Chip, after becoming tired of our organizer complaining about incorrect answers in his packets, offered to provide us with better questions that he would proof himself... for an extra fee. [You read that right. He wanted to charge us extra to ensure that answer lines would be correct.]

Within a few years, Culver and St. Joe stopped attending the "Classic State" tournament with QU. This boycott is certainly not because we're afraid of the competition. It is rather because neither of our schools is willing to support QU any more. Suffice it for me to summarize it as documented accounts of plagiarism, unprofessionalism, and question emphasis and quality: http://www.qbwiki.com/wiki/view/Criticisms_of_the_NAC. Also, St. Joe stopped attending NAC soon after finishing fifth in the nation one year, partly because I noticed that, although I would say I had an outstanding team, the level of our competitors was down. There were no DCCs, Dormans, Maggie Walkers, State Colleges, etc.

Meanwhile, the White River league continues to use QU. Because both Harrison and Zionsville have won NAC, there is no movement away from it. I do agree that your coach is fantastic, but I will add that she is devoted to QU. She has repeatedly held it up as the superior format. (For example, she says that NAQT questions discriminate against female players.)

Therefore, the lack of pyramidal tournaments is not the leading cause of you playing NAC. It's the fact that half the state as represented by the largest league thinks QU equals "quiz bowl".

Can this change? I've been working at it for a while, but I could use your persuasive abilities as players who have experienced both types.

By the way, good luck this weekend. Despite what you may have perceived from me throughout this post, I genuinely want Harrison to succeed!



Mr. Dillon,

I agree as well that you are certainly qualified to refute my statement!! Attempts to fully convert to NAQT have completely failed, for reasons you stated. We now are seeking compromise but I hope next year we will play each other much more often. Chip even mentioned your team at New Orleans and we were like yeah, one of our favorite in-state opponents :grin: Thanks for the well wishes! The better we place, the more NAQT tournaments we can go to!!! We really hope to go to Atlanta next year.
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby Vissi d'arte » Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:13 pm

I'll echo the sentiments of good luck to you all this weekend, as well! :)

As Chris said, maybe the best thing you can do is to host your own tournament! NAQT has a dedicated email address -- hosting@naqt.com -- set up to handle questions relating to the process of hosting a tournament using one of their sets. Other housewrites available for mirror over the course of the year are usually announced on the regular HS board here, with details about how to go about getting them. Even if your coach (who is a fabulously nice person, and dedicated to her team--anyone who will put up with the amount of trouble she did with the bus to get you guys down to JCPS Pre-Nats can't *not* be dedicated to their team) believes NAC to be the superior format, she may be convinced to host a fundraising tournament on NAQT or a housewrite just because it costs so much LESS to do so than on Chip (and you will, likewise, turn more of a profit).

And at the very least, please do stay active and engaged here on the boards, as well. It's the absolute best way for you guys to stay informed about tournaments you may be able to attend easily. :)
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby Big Y » Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:21 pm

Awesome fact about QU: They have a page of testimonials that says "50 Great testimonials from our users." It's actually 27 testimonials, but 24 of them appear twice on the same page, making it look like there are 51.
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby AKKOLADE » Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:25 pm

Big Y wrote:Awesome fact about QU: They have a page of testimonials that says "50 Great testimonials from our users." It's actually 27 testimonials, but 24 of them appear twice on the same page, making it look like there are 51.

This is the second funniest thing about this thread. The first funniest are those questions Chris found.
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby AKKOLADE » Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:45 pm

These questions are absolute hot garbage. Anyone who says "we just attend nAC because it's our preference!" is basically saying "I just eat animal feces because I like it more than steak!"

Unless somehow their example questions are ones written by someone as part of a fever dream, and the actual questions used are even just below average pyramidal tossups (like, I dunno, recent Hunter Bowls or something), the nAC's question quality is as bad as it ever was, and maybe worse. It's so far away from what pyramidal quiz bowl is like in 2016 it's practically a different game. Anyone who listens to these questions, has pyramidal questions explained to them, and understands why pyramidal questions are better, and STILL says 'nah, I'll go with the nAC," they either absolutely don't care about quiz bowl or only care about trophies (and the latter absolutely exists).

Teams that attend the nAC may be good, but you couldn't tell it at all from these questions. Some of these questions would be rejected by your run of a mill trivia board game. If you played them in Trivia Crack, your finger would hover over the "report question" button.

Edit: I'll note that it's been pointed out to me that these questions may not necessarily be "NAC" questions, but are just from QUnlimited.
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby Monstruos de Bolsillo » Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:46 pm

That's funny, I was looking at that testimonial page 2 days ago, and I showed my coach. I did notice that there were many repeats, but I didn't bother to count. Even with the repeats, there is an extra entry. That made my day. Surely that doesn't fool anyone, right?
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby Father Comstock » Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:54 pm

Jason, we do host our own tournament, Indiana Kick off. But thanks for the well wishes!!! Gus and I want to host a middle school tournament as well. Also yes those testimonials are golden!!! I would also like to host an Invitational set tournament as our kick off tournament is A's. It's been discussed that we may have an NAQT White River League tournament this year, that would be an excellent upgrade.
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby Monstruos de Bolsillo » Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:02 pm

At the JV level, West Chester East (PA) defeated Central Bucks East (PA), by a score of 265-85. Personally, if team size has anything to do with success, then West Chester East certainly is a juggernaut, judging by the photo on the QU site!


West Chester East is one of the other schools in our district. They've been going to Chip for years, and I believe they are pretty successful there. Their coach has one of the testimonials. On our bad local format, they have historically been the best in our county, but have not done well at states (also on bad questions until this year). They typically attend our tournament, and that's about it for them pyramidal-wise. We are jealous of their consistent large team sizes, though. They truly have tons of kids, year in and year out.
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby Father Comstock » Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:08 pm

Monstruos de Bolsillo wrote:
At the JV level, West Chester East (PA) defeated Central Bucks East (PA), by a score of 265-85. Personally, if team size has anything to do with success, then West Chester East certainly is a juggernaut, judging by the photo on the QU site!


West Chester East is one of the other schools in our district. They've been going to Chip for years, and I believe they are pretty successful there. Their coach has one of the testimonials. On our bad local format, they have historically been the best in our county, but have not done well at states (also on bad questions until this year). They typically attend our tournament, and that's about it for them pyramidal-wise. We are jealous of their consistent large team sizes, though. They truly have tons of kids, year in and year out.


We played West Chester East in the finals at the JV NAC DC site last year, competitive match (as much as it could be :lol: )
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby nitzuga » Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:14 am

In response to Mr. Dillon, Mr. Thompson, and Chris's comments about the Harrison and Indiana quiz bowl programs, it is correct that any efforts thus far to convert entirely to NAQT/ pyramidal questions have failed, and I do not think this is likely to happen to our school/ state any time soon. Chris, I absolutely agree that we should "be the change you wish to see in the world" but of course there are limits to what we can do given the fact that it is mostly not our decision and our other non-quizbowl commitments. However, the goal of "increase pyramidal attendance and awareness" is much more realistic than "eradicate Questions Unlimited entirely" and is one I am confident we can make progress on in the near future. As Ben said we currently host our state's NAQT Kickoff, and I'd like to work with my coaches to do a (or a couple?) other tournaments on top of that. And yes I plan on continuing to use the forums to find tournaments; in fact we would not have attended JCPS Pre-Nats had it not been for the post on it!

cchiego wrote:... the nAC is bad for all the reasons outlined in the QBwiki link ...

... Every year we also hear something to the effect of "Chip has changed! he's getting pyramidal now! the questions aren't so bad!" ...

I have read the linked article and am aware of these criticisms. My goal was not to defend Chip's questions but rather to offer my sincere observations; the questions I heard at NAC were certainly better than the QUnlimited sets I heard at other events and presumably also an improvement over older NAC sets I've heard in practice. This is not to say that the questions are comparable to a set like NSC, nor that they will be any time in the near future. They are, in my opinion, simply better than before.

AKKOLADE wrote:It's so far away from what pyramidal quiz bowl is like in 2016 it's practically a different game.

Actually, "It's a different game" is an argument I have heard as a reason to play both formats.

Finally, thank you all for wishing us luck this weekend! I'm happy to know that the quiz bowl community is supportive regardless of the event. I'll end my post with this testimony which our team found particularly funny:
Ken Genova wrote:Thank you and your team for a tremendous event. The boys haven't stopped smiling yet.
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby Father Comstock » Sun Jun 12, 2016 4:21 pm

Currently on the bus headed to Chicago... The competition may be light but the pizza won't be :lol: In all seriousness, the Chicago scores are quite low comparatively. Our league rival, Zionsville, had quite a nice showing yesterday but seems to have faltered today, weird. I would love to play them in the finals!! :grin:
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby the return of AHAN » Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:59 pm

Watching the scoreboard from the Chicago stage, I see that TWO high school teams forfeited their 6th and final matches when they had 3-2 records. Do 2 losses eliminate a team from playing on Monday? The teams in question were Poquoson and Luther Wright. I'm interested in hearing how that played out, if anyone is going to be there soon and can ask (looks at the Harrison team).
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby Snoopy » Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:30 pm

the return of AHAN wrote: Do 2 losses eliminate a team from playing on Monday? The teams in question were Poquoson and Luther Wright.


I'm certain it doesn't; I'm extremely surprised that they forfeited. Perhaps they were unaware of the playoff rules?
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby Father Comstock » Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:26 pm

Snoopy wrote:
the return of AHAN wrote: Do 2 losses eliminate a team from playing on Monday? The teams in question were Poquoson and Luther Wright.


I'm certain it doesn't; I'm extremely surprised that they forfeited. Perhaps they were unaware of the playoff rules?


4-2 made the playoffs. Looks like our toughest competition will be against Daviess Co. Assuming they win Chicago. I asked :chip: as to why the teams who forfeited did that and he had no idea. We have yet to play a match but it will be a double elimination round robin of 3 teams... Weird.
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby the return of AHAN » Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:40 pm

Father Comstock wrote:
Snoopy wrote:
the return of AHAN wrote: Do 2 losses eliminate a team from playing on Monday? The teams in question were Poquoson and Luther Wright.


I'm certain it doesn't; I'm extremely surprised that they forfeited. Perhaps they were unaware of the playoff rules?


4-2 made the playoffs. Looks like our toughest competition will be against Daviess Co. Assuming they win Chicago. I asked :chip: as to why the teams who forfeited did that and he had no idea. We have yet to play a match but it will be a double elimination round robin of 3 teams... Weird.

Well, a three team playoff with double-elim is better than a single RR with a grand total of three matches. On the other hand, if...
A defeats B
B defeats C
C defeats A
A defeats B (knocking out B, right?)
Is C vs. A effectively a one-game final? Even though A had to play one more game? If this is the case, there's a huge advantage in being team C in this RR...
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby Snoopy » Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:28 pm

What happened with that Edgemont forfeit in the middle of playoffs?
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby Ben Dillon » Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:49 pm

In previous years, it has still been a knockout bracket, awkwardly pitting three winners. In some years, I think I've seen the last two Chicago teams finish off the final four, e.g. one Chicago finalist versus the NO winner and one Chicago finalist versus the DC winner.
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby the return of AHAN » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:20 pm

Congratulations to Next Generation Charter School of Champaign, IL on winning the Chicago phase of the Junior national Academic Challenge, defeating #1 seed Heritage, 450-295.
In the High school edition, Palatine (IL) made a valiant run at the Chicago phase title before falling to Daviess County (Owensboro, KY), 370-240, in the final. Awaiting word on how the overall championship played out at the high school level, and what the determination of overall champion was for the middle school level.
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby AKKOLADE » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:33 pm

Daviess County was a pretty good team this year, but their best aPPB this year would rank 490th amongst all performances. LASA B's worst/7th best performance is slightly better.
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby dhumphreys17 » Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:49 am

the return of AHAN wrote:Congratulations to Next Generation Charter School of Champaign, IL on winning the Chicago phase of the Junior national Academic Challenge, defeating #1 seed Heritage, 450-295.
In the High school edition, Palatine (IL) made a valiant run at the Chicago phase title before falling to Daviess County (Owensboro, KY), 370-240, in the final. Awaiting word on how the overall championship played out at the high school level, and what the determination of overall champion was for the middle school level.


AKKOLADE wrote:Daviess County was a pretty good team this year, but their best aPPB this year would rank 490th amongst all performances. LASA B's worst/7th best performance is slightly better.


Anything on Palatine, Mr. Morlan?
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby Big Y » Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:10 am

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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby AKKOLADE » Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:21 pm

Palatine's best aPPB I can find is 17.15, which would tie them for the 1664th highest single tournament performance in the country out of 5338. I have six stat lines for Leon High School from Florida, ranked 184th; their lowest aPPB was 17.27.
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby Father Comstock » Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:50 pm

I tried to defend Chip's NAC tournament for the spirit of open-mindedness, but it's difficult to do so after yesterday. In the "Circle of Death" we lost both matches. In the first one, a 20 point loss to the New York team of Briarcliff A, we beat them handsomely in last round, but it wasn't enough to overcome their points gained on a MANHATTAN lightning round. We chose "Christmas Carols" which usually goes very well for us (80-90 points), but several of the lines given were not in the choruses but rather in verses, which was quite awkward. In the second match, we lost by 120, even though we did beat them in STE. The projector flashed up questions and answers to some tossups in that round in which I saw the answers to 3 questions. I was not in but it would've been easy for a competitor to see them as well. Daviess was quite a good team but sounds like they don't play very much pyramidal... weird.
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby Rococo A Go Go » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:20 pm

Daviess County usually goes to several pyramidal tournaments a year, and have been doing so for a long time. I've never quite understood why they still attend NAC.

EDIT: From the Daviess County HS Facebook page, it looks like they won NAC this year. Good for them, I guess. I hope they attend HSNCT next year.
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby Vissi d'arte » Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:14 pm

Father Comstock wrote:The projector flashed up questions and answers to some tossups in that round in which I saw the answers to 3 questions.


Wait, what? Were they actually projecting questions and answers on to a screen for the audience to see while the game was going on or something?

Can you explain this a bit more for someone unfamiliar with how this tournament's games run?
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby Father Comstock » Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:27 pm

Vissi d'arte wrote:
Father Comstock wrote:The projector flashed up questions and answers to some tossups in that round in which I saw the answers to 3 questions.


Wait, what? Were they actually projecting questions and answers on to a screen for the audience to see while the game was going on or something?

Can you explain this a bit more for someone unfamiliar with how this tournament's games run?


In the finals, most questions are read out loud but every once in a while there is an art piece or picture of some object to identify being projected to while the question is being read. Due to technical errors, the question packet was displayed on the screen. Those questions weren't thrown out either.
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Re: 2016 nAC

Postby Ben Dillon » Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:05 pm

Father Comstock wrote:The projector flashed up questions and answers to some tossups in that round in which I saw the answers to 3 questions. I was not in but it would've been easy for a competitor to see them as well.


Sounds like a new strike against NAC to add to the wiki :/
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