Minnesota '07-'08

Dormant threads from the high school sections are preserved here.
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naturalistic phallacy
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Post by naturalistic phallacy » Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:30 am

G, nice name. And Almost Dewey would be cool, especially for us to see how competitive we really can be in Minnesota.
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Post by Mitu » Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:44 pm

Yeah, I wish we could come. However, due to us already trying to attend Weekend of Quizbowl and potentially PACE, I dont know if we could find the funds to go down to Missouri for a tournament, unless we can somehow get a parent to accompany the team on a roadtrip (as flying would be too expensive and some parents arent comfortable with 17 year olds roadtripping alone). If we can make it, rest assured, we'll let you know ASAP.
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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:56 pm

Well, let the Truman people know. Flying is not a very feasible option since Kirksville is in the middle of nowhere in a lot of ways (I don't know if the nearest real airport is St. Louis, KC, or Des Moines, but its one of those 3).
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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:38 am

Unfortunately, Truman State was just canceled.
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08
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Post by naturalistic phallacy » Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:20 pm

Well, that is no fun.
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Post by klwalton33 » Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:54 pm

For what it's worth, the wheels are definitely in motion for this year's EPIC, which is a house-written tournament, albeit 100% dedicated to pop culture. The date is Feb 23rd. Would any of you outstate folks that have been kind enough to join in the MN discussions be interested in such a tournament? We had a BLAST with it last year and this year is going to feature a much more consistent format (as far as questions) since Gautam, Andrew, Bernadette, Rob and others will write many of them.

IF anyone's interested, I'd be happy to share more info! It'll be a lot of fun, and there's plenty to do and see in MN that time of year (even if it is a bit cold)

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Post by OctagonJoe » Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:07 pm

Does anybody know how the League's pool play will be divided up this year? With Minnetonka and Armstrong as hosts, I know that means the old West Division will be split up somehow, but I've not been able to find any information on what teams are playing in which division. I've been nagging Mitu for over a week to find out, but he's not sure either, last I knew.
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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:16 pm

klwalton33 wrote:For what it's worth, the wheels are definitely in motion for this year's EPIC, which is a house-written tournament, albeit 100% dedicated to pop culture. The date is Feb 23rd. Would any of you outstate folks that have been kind enough to join in the MN discussions be interested in such a tournament? We had a BLAST with it last year and this year is going to feature a much more consistent format (as far as questions) since Gautam, Andrew, Bernadette, Rob and others will write many of them.

IF anyone's interested, I'd be happy to share more info! It'll be a lot of fun, and there's plenty to do and see in MN that time of year (even if it is a bit cold)

Kirk W
Coach -- EPHS
See my post in the regular season discussion.
Suffice to say, I don't think you'll get anyone from out of state unless you host an academic tournament the same weekend. And in your unique case of being the best team in MN, at least by reputation, unless you have EP play in said tournament even then I would be surprised if you get out of state teams.
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Post by sam.peterson » Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:15 pm

Carsten,
Chaska is playing at Minnetonka (West Division). Where's Wayzata going? Anybody know about other teams?
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Post by Mitu » Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:29 pm

Wayzata is in West Division as well. We look forward to playing against you guys in league. By the way, Im assuming since the Titanomachy mirror is at your school that you're going?
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Post by sam.peterson » Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:00 pm

This is news to me. I had no idea we were hosting a tourney.
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Post by Mitu » Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:04 pm

Haha, seriously? http://www.hsquizbowl.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4539
It's a college level tournament, but it will be good for getting experience on upper level tournaments.
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Post by sam.peterson » Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:06 pm

Lenius (our coach) hasn't mentioned it to us yet. I'll probably be running in the state cross country meet that morning, so I don't think I'll be playing. Wish I could go...
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Post by Mitu » Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:15 pm

So, did anybody else anything about A teams not being eligible for TOMCAT? Our coach stated that Wayzata A cannot play because the tournament is focusing mainly on new teams and doesn't want experienced players pounding on the newbies or something to that extent.
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Post by sam.peterson » Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:21 pm

http://naqt.com/mqba/tomcat/2008/announcement.html

"This tournament is targeted at new(er) teams and less experienced players compared to most Twin Cities-area quiz bowl events. While we hope that the region's top teams will still be interested in coming and will find the competition worthwhile and educational, the questions used will be shorter and easier than at other events."

I don't think there's a rule about it.
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Post by Mitu » Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:23 pm

Damn, well, looks like our coach is just refusing to let us go then.
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Post by naturalistic phallacy » Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:38 pm

Mitu wrote:Damn, well, looks like our coach is just refusing to let us go then.
Um, yeah. You guys should just talk to Hentzel about her, for she's an idiot.
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Post by OctagonJoe » Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:39 pm

I think what Hagen wants is for Wayzata to focus on the little people that day, because the underclassmen on our team are little in stature this year. Best thing we can do is try to become readers/scorers or co-coaches for the day, depending on what we're allowed to do. It might be fun to serve as a mentor to our C and D teams instead of focusing on ourselves for a day.
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Post by theattachment » Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:57 pm

There is some reasoning behind her statement (as well as the fact that TOMCAT is basically all "Name this title character from Twain's "The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn") but to go so far as to bar the A team from playing? That's nuts for you guys. It will make it easier for EP to make a repeat of last year though. I know that unless we convince Igor to go to KB meets it'll be both his and my only speed tournament of the year.

Anyone else know who's doing Burnsville this year? Tonka seems pretty stacked.

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Post by sam.peterson » Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:50 pm

Chaska might actually play at Burnsville, I spoke too soon when I said we'd be at Tonka.
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Post by Gautam » Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:35 am

You guys should invite people from places other than Southwest suburbs to this forum. There seems to be a surprising lack of "other voices" in this thread.

EDIT: And it's a positive externality for quiz bowl blah blah
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Post by Mitu » Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:40 pm

So, it looks like the division confusion continues with the possibility of Wayzata being switched to North division. It seems that the Western division has too many teams. Anyone else think they may switch?
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Post by naturalistic phallacy » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:52 pm

kandlifornication wrote:You guys should invite people from places other than Southwest suburbs to this forum. There seems to be a surprising lack of "other voices" in this thread.

EDIT: And it's a positive externality for quiz bowl blah blah
I'll see what I can do about that, G, for I have connections. :) But, really, it's unfortunate that the majority (if not all) of the serious teams are in the SW burbs.
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Post by OctagonJoe » Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:24 pm

I think the best idea for divisions would be to have Wayzata, Eden Prairie, Minnetonka, and Orono/Chaska in separate divisions and wait for playoff time to decide who is the best. This is a very elitist view, as I'm sure 4 out of these 5 teams could bust and end up not being their division's top seed, but the general consensus is that these teams will be the best Minnesota has to offer this year. However, I think this would be better than having 2 of those teams/groups in the same division where there would be less of a point to those teams competing pre-playoff time. I do realize that there are some basic and major flaws with such an idea, such as the fact that all these teams are West metro teams and that the divisions are supposed to be separated on a somewhat geographic basis, and also that, as previously stated, this assumes that these are the best teams without a single game having been played. I'm interested to hear others thoughts and snide comments, or possibly updates on the final division set up, since I'm not sure if many people agree with this idea.
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Post by naturalistic phallacy » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:30 am

OctagonJoe wrote:I think the best idea for divisions would be to have Wayzata, Eden Prairie, Minnetonka, and Orono/Chaska in separate divisions and wait for playoff time to decide who is the best. This is a very elitist view, as I'm sure 4 out of these 5 teams could bust and end up not being their division's top seed, but the general consensus is that these teams will be the best Minnesota has to offer this year. However, I think this would be better than having 2 of those teams/groups in the same division where there would be less of a point to those teams competing pre-playoff time. I do realize that there are some basic and major flaws with such an idea, such as the fact that all these teams are West metro teams and that the divisions are supposed to be separated on a somewhat geographic basis, and also that, as previously stated, this assumes that these are the best teams without a single game having been played. I'm interested to hear others thoughts and snide comments, or possibly updates on the final division set up, since I'm not sure if many people agree with this idea.
I would agree with you, Carsten, that to separate the four top teams in Minnesota QB would prevent pre-playoff competition between teams that really doesn't settle much, but, like you said, that would require going against geographically organized groups that have been set up to facilitate competition for teams that don't want to travel far.

Your idea is also a good idea for teams that have less QB prowess, for then they are able to judge the level of competition that they are against. It really can suck if you play in a weaker division and get used to less-than-stellar competition and then get creamed in the playoffs, for, as mentioned above, the divisions are not based on pre-judged talent but rather on geographic location. It would only make sense to have divisions that represent the different levels of competition in the metro area as much as possible.

As for those who want to judge other top teams before playoffs, that's what tournaments outside the league play are for.
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Post by OctagonJoe » Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:27 pm

According to our coach's most recent e-mail, Wayzata will be playing at Minnetonka this year in the West Division, and we may not be attending SOCIAL because our coach wants to teach us a lesson. I'm not sure if she was just trying to sound threatening, but she is never easy to read and I wouldn't be surprised if she causes us more trouble than other teams would in a tournament. Hopefully she will let us go, becuase she would be [insert insult here] not to let us go and figure out where we stand relative to other teams in the state at this time. Hopefully this will all get sorted out in time for us not to be screwed from within, and next year we will have a new coach(although just too late for some of us).
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Post by Mitu » Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:18 pm

With coaching like this, who needs teams to lose to?
That's all Im going to say.
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Post by Mitu » Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:59 pm

And it's official: Wayzata will not be in attendance at SOCIAL, save our coach deciding at the last second to let at least A team attend to represent Wayzata.
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Post by naturalistic phallacy » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:02 pm

Mitu wrote:And it's official: Wayzata will not be in attendance at SOCIAL, save our coach deciding at the last second to let at least A team attend to represent Wayzata.
We'll miss you. And abstaining to "teach a lesson" is bull.
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Post by theattachment » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:36 pm

The only possible lesson that I can think of for you guys not being there is "Teams should not be good to start a season." SOCIAL, even with its idea of being a starter tournament, is still a starter tournament for good teams. There's nothing wrong with elite teams playing A-Series, otherwise Hentzel or whomever is TDing would bar them from coming. I'm going to miss you guys.

Oh, and if anyone's wondering, the tenative plan is to have EP teams like this: A = Michael, Shonts, Igor, Me. B = Sam, Jill, Parry, Gaurav. C = Jasmine, Bjorn, Robin, Ankesh. We may have others because we just opened it up to freshmen (the other end of the spectrum from Wayzata's messed up problems, though ours almost makes sense due to needing a different bus).

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Post by Mitu » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:42 pm

Anant is conspicuously missing. Can he not make it to SOCIAL?
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Post by naturalistic phallacy » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:46 pm

Mitu wrote:Anant is conspicuously missing. Can he not make it to SOCIAL?
Yeah. Where is he?

(I almost called him an it.)
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Post by Mitu » Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:19 pm

Well, our coach has changed her mind: Wayzata A will definitely be in attendance at SOCIAL. Dont know about the lower teams though.
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Post by theattachment » Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:14 pm

Mitu wrote:Well, our coach has changed her mind: Wayzata A will definitely be in attendance at SOCIAL. Dont know about the lower teams though.
Good.

And Anant's taking the ACT that day, which is a bit surprising given that I doubt his need to.

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Post by naturalistic phallacy » Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:07 am

theattachment wrote:
Mitu wrote:Well, our coach has changed her mind: Wayzata A will definitely be in attendance at SOCIAL. Dont know about the lower teams though.
Good.

And Anant's taking the ACT that day, which is a bit surprising given that I doubt his need to.
That's really great that you will be there. De won't be.
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Post by OctagonJoe » Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:35 pm

The first night of League play is through, and I only have limited results thourgh hearsay and other such means. Minnetonka A is 4-0, Wayzata B is 3-1, and Wayzata A is also 3-1. As for unofficial but should be correct stats for Wayzata A, our games went as follows:
Wayzata A 640 Minnetonka C 60
Wayzata A 645 Minnetonka B 190
Orono A 345 Wayzata A 260
Wayzata A 385 Breck B 130
I would like to say I have an excuse or some point for our loss to Orono A, but I don't, and they played well and beat us fairly. Our system of having a substitute player was not the best, but our stronger player played half the first game and the entire second and third games, so there is no excuse in that way for our loss. I think some people will be surprised by this loss, and we can only hope to improve this Saturday at SOCIAL to try and prove we are still one of the top teams in Minnesota.
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Post by Mitu » Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:28 pm

Quick SOCIAL Results
1st: Eden Prairie A
2nd: Wayzata A
3rd: Chaska
4th: Minnetonka A

Individual Results
1st: Michael Wright (Eden Prairie A)
2nd: Brian Hatt-Stuart (Rosemount)
3rd: Carsten Gehring (Wayzata A)
4th: Noah Rosenthal (Wayzata B)
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Post by Canadajin » Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:07 pm

I thought that overall the set (methinks 69-A) was pretty okay, but certain subject areas were overrepresented, and there were a few too many clues that were not power worthy, even for A-series. I thought that this was one of the better A-series sets that I have seen, though that might not be saying much.

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Post by OctagonJoe » Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:31 pm

Continued results from playoffs:(Team lost to)
t5.Edina A (Eden Prairie A)
t5.Orono A (Chaska A)
t5.Eden Prairie B (Minnetonka A)
t5.Wayzata B (Wayzata A)
t9.Estherville (Eden Prairie A)
t9.Hudson (Wayzata A)
t9.La Follette (Wayzata B)
t9.North St. Paul (Minnetonka A)
t9.Rosemount (Edina A)
t9.Minntonka B (Chaska A)
t9.Orono B (Eden Prairie B)
t9.Eden Prairie C (Orono A)
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Post by OctagonJoe » Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:40 pm

As for the questions, without giving anything away, I thought there was a lot of range between buzzer races on the first few words and some questions that went to the end or unanswered for the games Wayzata A played. Overall, I felt the content was fine and would agree with Michael that the tournament's packets were at least above average and made for a good way to kick-off the tournament season.
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Post by theattachment » Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:26 pm

Yeah, the powers were either really good or really ridiculously bad. I didn't mind the content itself, but the editing was at best alright. I might have gotten spoiled reading other stuff this summer, but the set just had some iffy stuff in it. I had two or three powers that, when they said "15," I literally exclaimed "Really? Wow..."

As for a scouting report, the team that pleasantly surprised me the most was Chaska A. Sam came to some of the summer practices and did well, but he played a darn good round against us and apparently played better in the other rounds. Wayzata B also gave us one of the hardest matches of the day; they're a really well-balanced team and should be able to go far this year. I still haven't played Tonka, which I'm kind of anxious to do.

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Post by sam.peterson » Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:58 pm

Thanks Colin. I agree with you on the powers. Works of literature that appear in the top 100 of the frequency list should not be power-worthy clues for a tossup on an author (even if it is an A series packet).

I was surprised by Orono A. I was expecting them to be better after hearing of Wayzata A's loss to them. It must have been a fluke.

Does anybody know if/when the SOCIAL results will be on the NAQT/MQBA website?

Also, what was the score in the finals between Eden Prairie A and Wayzata A?
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Post by Canadajin » Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:14 pm

It was about 555-135.

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Post by OctagonJoe » Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:22 pm

Or exactly 555-135. Could have been closer (maybe 555-165) if I hadn't screwed up answering a free question after a neg.
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Post by sam.peterson » Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:22 pm

Thanks, was it 590-130 when we played EP?
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Post by OctagonJoe » Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:55 pm

After yesterday, I must say that my own opinion about the field in Minnesota has definitely changed. I still feel that Eden Prairie will dominate, but they were definitely weaker than last year and, possibly due to the format, were basically carried by Michael through the prelims and presumably the playoffs. However, I believe that I made a mistake in not giving Orono and Chaska as much credit as they deserve in rounding off the top tier of teams in Minnesota. Minntonka surprised me in their poor performance against Wayzata (475-165), but this could be for a lot of different reasons of which I am unaware. However, if I had to base my opinion off of only yesterday, I would say Chaska/Wayzata/Orono/Minnetonka are a lot closer in their abilities than I used to think. I do realize that this was an A-series tournament, and that it was the first play for any team outside of the Western Division, but I was somewhat surprised.
Does anybody else share a similar opinion? Or is it just to soon to tell until another tournament or non-A-series one has been played?
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Post by theMoMA » Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:03 am

So hey, how many teams are going to play REAL QUESTIONS at the tournament next Saturday? I hear there is a track meet so Sam won't be there, which is too bad.

I know that Chaska, Eden Prairie, Wayzata, and Minnetonka are planning to come, and it should be a mighty fun reunion with such former Minnesota high school powerhouses as Brendan Byrne, Gautam Kandlikar, Rob Carson, Bernadette Spencer, and perhaps even Tom Sullivan and Andreas Stohr playing. I daresay it might be the finest amalgamation of young talent ever assembled in Minnesota!

So I guess what I'm saying is that St. Thomas and St. Anthony and Orono should sign up so that we have the omg gr8est field evar!!!1

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Post by Gautam » Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:49 am

OctagonJoe wrote: However, if I had to base my opinion off of only yesterday, I would say Chaska/Wayzata/Orono/Minnetonka are a lot closer in their abilities
....
Does anybody else share a similar opinion? Or is it just to soon to tell until another tournament or non-A-series one has been played?
Since you mentioned those 4 teams, here is the frank opinion of dude who's seen all these teams/people for 3 years now. I don't mean to pick on/criticize anybody, but here's what I saw from reading at MNHSQB league and watching at SOCIAL:

1.a Wayzata B is more stacked than it should be, and I will also say that they are not too far behind from Wayzata A. If there is some rearrangement of the teams, Wayazata will be much better off. I won't say much because it's not my business to... but if you want to have more balanced teams, then there are definitely plausible rearrangements which can be made.

1.b. Orono dude Keshav has good backing up from Sean W., who has some intense knowledge in specific categories (I can't recollect which). However, it seems like Keshav feels bad about negging/giving wrong bonus answers. I can't comment if it has an adverse effect on his performance, but if it does, then he should address it right away.

1.c. Minnetonka A should change its game dynamics slightly. I mean, I don't know if I am the right person to point this out, but they were being noisy when their opponents were answering bonuses. (Of course, I was constantly complementing EP people when they powered a question or 30d a bonus or whatev. If you find that annoying, please do tell me when I'm watching he future games.)

1.d. Chaska is in need of a stronger supporting cast. Sam is pretty good, but more involvement will definitely help.

2. I don't think this set was as good of a determinant of individual prowess, because it notably lacked real/worthy questions from areas certain people are strong in. Instead, there were some questions slyly disguised as being about category A when they were really about category B. That affects people's ability to answer questions - I can tell because I got to play a couple of games as an extra and I saw many other games where the better teams played.

As has been pointed out before, the parts where the power clues were set up pretty damn early had an effect on the scoring too, since it essentially rewarded buzzer speed. Furthermore, I was also disappointed when more than 1 question from a minor category showed up in a round, and that question essentially determined the winner. IIRC this happened twice and it shouldn't happen ever.

That's all.

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Post by Mitu » Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:16 pm

kandlifornication wrote: 1.a Wayzata B is more stacked than it should be, and I will also say that they are not too far behind from Wayzata A. If there is some rearrangement of the teams, Wayazata will be much better off. I won't say much because it's not my business to... but if you want to have more balanced teams, then there are definitely plausible rearrangements which can be made.
We beat our B team by over 300 points in playoffs at SOCIAL, so I dont really know how much rearranging teams will benefit anyone.
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Post by naturalistic phallacy » Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:09 pm

Mitu wrote:
kandlifornication wrote: 1.a Wayzata B is more stacked than it should be, and I will also say that they are not too far behind from Wayzata A. If there is some rearrangement of the teams, Wayazata will be much better off. I won't say much because it's not my business to... but if you want to have more balanced teams, then there are definitely plausible rearrangements which can be made.
We beat our B team by over 300 points in playoffs at SOCIAL, so I dont really know how much rearranging teams will benefit anyone.
Not like you guys can do much, really. I think that G is right about rearranging the teams, but there are certain things that stand in the way that I won't mention.

Regarding Minnetonka, I didn't have that problem when I read for them this past Thursday, for they are all experienced in the nuances of game play. There were, however, several less-experienced teams (read: teams that I have never seen in my three years playing MNHSQB) that were loud between questions, during bonuses, and laughing at humorous/ridiculous clues. Unfortunately, this behavior was not confined to the players but the audience in the room. I did my best to quiet them down, but as a friendly reminder to all, please tell spectators of QB matches to keep their mouths shut unless they want to be asked to leave.

Echoing Andrew's statements, COME TO TITANOMACHY! It will be a blast regardless of what happens, and we can all reminisce about our time together in QB. *tear* :twisted:
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