Favorite Intentional Neg

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Favorite Intentional Neg

Post by Zip Zap Rap Pants » Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:33 am

In a timed game, it makes sense if you're up somewhere between 10-40 points to buzz with 5-7 seconds left on a tossup with a rambling incorrect answer that'll kill the clock. So I wanted to see what people's intentional negs are (that aren't blitzes), later we can vote on the most hilarious and the most effective/longest, or whichever combines the two best.

Anyway, I've intentionally negged once - in a 20 point game on some question about an opera, with "The Third of May 1808, the Execution of the Defenders of Madrid" (then I tried to throw in "by Francisco de Goya" but I got cut off because that was unnecessary creator/creation blitzing). It killed a good 6 seconds, which was all that was needed for the win. My answer is pretty lame though, I bet a bunch of people have much better ones.
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Post by jbarnes112358 » Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:58 am

This is yet one more reason to not have timed rounds.

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Post by The Atom Strikes! » Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:31 am

We were thinking about this one. On questions about royalty: His/Her Majesty (insert name here) of the house of (insert house) of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Sadly, we never actually did this in tournament play.
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Post by First Chairman » Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:25 pm

Well, you can discuss my "response" as a reader as an ethical discussion.

I would usually cut answers off after 2 seconds if I know it's intentional. Heck, if you didn't do that normally when there's 9 minutes on the clock compared to 9 seconds, I would use reader discretion to say, "incorrect, continuing...". I mean heck, you already kill a couple of seconds and interrupt the flow of the question, which I think puts the opposition in a bad spot in the first place. The only reason why I would let you continue on is if your answer were related somehow to the correct answer. If you happen to know that an individual has 20 given names and you decide to cite them all, you can... but a miss always stops you. :)

In other words, canned answers to kill last tossups are not as impressive as actual stalling which is based on correct knowledge.

And to add to Dr. B: and yet another reason why reboundable bonuses prevent such tactics from working. Of course, we glare at people used to timed rounds who play on PACE format when they don't properly kill that last power tossup.
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Post by mceschermaniac4 » Sun Aug 26, 2007 4:52 pm

Anti-disestablishmentarianism. Hands down favorite. If you say it kinda slow it really kills some time.

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Post by dschafer » Sun Aug 26, 2007 5:10 pm

As a member of the other team in the game referenced by Wall of Shawarma, I'd like to state up front that nobody on my team would have gotten the tossup, even from the giveaway, so this particular stall ended up being utterly irrelevant. I'd then like to note that this particular stalling buzz was one that I would be ashamed to have made, rather than one I would brag about on forums.

There is a strategy, in timed rounds, to intentional negging. I was fully expecting an intentional neg, and was ready to buzz at about five seconds with a last-ditch attempt to try and beat the intentional neg. On the other hand, to buzz with eight seconds left and stall by giving the longest name imaginable, especially when it is clear that there is no intent to even attempt to answer the question, I thought was certainly not in the spirit of the game, and it left a decidedly bad taste in my mouth after the game.

I absolutely agree with E.T. Chuck; especially in a timed round, incorrect answers should be cut off as soon as they are incorrect.

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Post by NoahMinkCHS » Sun Aug 26, 2007 5:32 pm

While NAQT doesn't seem to have a specific rule against it (at least that I can find), the spirit of several other rules seems to be that such a delay could be punished, and in fact, time could even be put back on the clock in such an event.

It seems to me there's an important distinction between strategy (buzzing with 2-3 seconds left and letting time expire (since you're given 2 seconds after being recognized to respond)) and gaming the system (buzzing with 6-7 seconds left and blabbing until you're cut off). It undermines the game, it puts the moderator in an awkward position (of deciding how long to let you go before cutting you off), and it cheapens your win.

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Post by theMoMA » Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:34 pm

Listing off really long numbers is something I've seen.

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Post by Gautam » Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:55 pm

mceschermaniac4 wrote:Anti-disestablishmentarianism. Hands down favorite. If you say it kinda slow it really kills some time.
neopseudoantidisestablishmentarianism to add more time killing.
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Post by grapesmoker » Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:55 pm

You know, all this retardation could be fixed by mandating that once started, a question must be read to completion regardless of how much time is left on the clock. This would be the logical, commonsense solution to the problem. An even better solution is to dump the clock entirely.
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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:35 pm

I'm definitely a supporter of finishing every question. It really pisses me off when someone gets less than a line in on the question and then the clock goes off when it turns out one of us knew the answer later on. This actually happened at NAQT in our game against Shady Side, which may or may not have swung the game to us winning.
Better yet, don't time the games. It's silly that a game can be determined by a clock and not the questions.
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Post by pray for elves » Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:13 pm

charlieDfromNKC wrote:I'm definitely a supporter of finishing every question. It really pisses me off when someone gets less than a line in on the question and then the clock goes off when it turns out one of us knew the answer later on. This actually happened at NAQT in our game against Shady Side, which may or may not have swung the game to us winning.
Better yet, don't time the games. It's silly that a game can be determined by a clock and not the questions.
My problem with the clock is that it makes the moderator have a huge impact on the game. Some respond by blowing through the questions at lightning speed, rendering them impossible to understand for half of the people. Some go plodding along, the same as all other times, leading the matches to end with only 16 questions read. Both are obviously undesirable.

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Post by Youse Da Force » Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:16 pm

I've never used this, but I imagine it could work well:

The Fortunes and Misfortunes of the Famous Moll Flanders, Etc. Who was born in Newgate, and during a life of continu'd Variety for Threescore Years, besides her Childhood, was Twelve Year a Whore, five times a Wife (whereof once to her own brother), Twelve Year a Thief, Eight Year a Transported Felon in Virginia, at last grew Rich, liv'd Honest and died a Penitent. Written from her own Memorandums.

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Post by jbarnes112358 » Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:34 pm

grapesmoker wrote:You know, all this retardation could be fixed by mandating that once started, a question must be read to completion regardless of how much time is left on the clock. This would be the logical, commonsense solution to the problem. An even better solution is to dump the clock entirely.
Good solution, grapesmoker.

NAQT lets you finish the entire bonus after time expires. It would add very little delay to allow any tossup, once started, to be completed along with its bonus.

I believe that it would be borderline bad sportsmanship to try to kill that much time. I would not want our team to do it, and would be annoyed if it was done against us.

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Post by AKKOLADE » Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:37 pm

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However, I agree with everyone that says the tossup should be continued. I don't grasp the reasoning why it shouldn't be.
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Post by Zip Zap Rap Pants » Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:48 pm

dschafer wrote:As a member of the other team in the game referenced by Wall of Shawarma, I'd like to state up front that nobody on my team would have gotten the tossup, even from the giveaway, so this particular stall ended up being utterly irrelevant. I'd then like to note that this particular stalling buzz was one that I would be ashamed to have made, rather than one I would brag about on forums.
Well yeah but I can't read minds. I really didn't mean to come off sounding arrogant (especially since I said my answer was pretty lame), but this thread more than anything points out the hilarity in this aspect of NAQT's rules. I mean sure I understand that NAQT wants to keep larger events running smoothly so a couple slow moderators don't hold up the tournament, and yeah timed rounds make their product more marketable for potential TV tournament use without changing the rest of the game, but they could at least keep the clock killing aspect out of it by finishing off a tossup completely even if time is up, as Jerry suggested. This still isn't a perfect solution though as strategies for going quickly through questions when behind are equally insane/nothing like an untimed game (like answering bonuses a couple words into each part, even if that cuts down bonus conversion). Anyway, I mainly started this thread to poke fun at the oddities that show up as a result of timed matches. Ideally we wouldn't have anything timed, it adds too much variability. Besides potentially having slow moderators, even ones that are good but unfortunate enough to not have a scorekeeper can slow things up.
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Post by First Chairman » Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:09 pm

Back in whatever day that NAQT was founded, I originally thought that tossups would be completed even after the timer went off, much the same way that bonuses would be completed. Oh well.
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Post by Skepticism and Animal Feed » Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:48 pm

There is an obscure NAQT rule which says that if there is one person on either team who cannot see the clock, then the tossup MUST be read to completion after the timer runs out.

Now, at SCT in 2006, I attempted to invoke this rule in a game where I could not see the clock. The moderator (a certain Mr. Potru, now of Michigan State) responded by saying "shut up". So, this rule is not always enforced. But a possible solution would be for the moderators to "mistakenly" but the clock in an awkward place (or for team members to hire ninjas to move the clocks before games).
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Post by grapesmoker » Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:04 pm

Bruce wrote:There is an obscure NAQT rule which says that if there is one person on either team who cannot see the clock, then the tossup MUST be read to completion after the timer runs out.

Now, at SCT in 2006, I attempted to invoke this rule in a game where I could not see the clock. The moderator (a certain Mr. Potru, now of Michigan State) responded by saying "shut up". So, this rule is not always enforced. But a possible solution would be for the moderators to "mistakenly" but the clock in an awkward place (or for team members to hire ninjas to move the clocks before games).
Why should moderators bend the rules at all? The only reasonable thing to do in this case is to just change the rule. I can't see any good reason for having it in the first place, unless the purpose is to encourage such clock management.
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Post by cornfused » Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:10 pm

Y'know, it's actually possible to use this in untimed rounds, too. In Illinois format, math computation questions get 30 seconds, but if there's an incorrect answer towards the end of the 30 seconds, the second team is guaranteed at least three seconds.

So what you COULD do (by which I mean that no one would actually ever do this) is if you're an awful math team, wait about 10 seconds and then buzz. Answer: One hundred and seventy-three quadrillion, eight hundred and eight-two trillion... etc etc. I think many teams would be distracted by the ridiculousness of the answer... and if you can drag it on long enough, they'll be left with only 3 seconds to do the math. Mind you, a good team would keep calculating through the insanery, but if you're willing to try this against a good team, you deserve to watch them get the points.

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Post by MahoningQuizBowler » Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:53 pm

I agree with reading the entire tossup if it is started before time expires. I really hope this is added to the official NAQT rules at some point, but even if it's not, what's to stop tournament directors from making that modification to their own tournaments if they are already classified as "unofficial" NAQT events?

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Post by The Atom Strikes! » Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:53 am

I also agree that the entire tossup should probably be read before time expires. It seems though, that timed rounds are sometimes necessary to keep a tournament running on schedule. Probably, a compromise (preliminary rounds are timed, playoff rounds are not), could be reached for events such as NAQT nationals, where varying moderator quality makes timing essential for maintaining the schedule during prelims.
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Post by Skepticism and Animal Feed » Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:52 pm

grapesmoker wrote:
Bruce wrote:There is an obscure NAQT rule which says that if there is one person on either team who cannot see the clock, then the tossup MUST be read to completion after the timer runs out.

Now, at SCT in 2006, I attempted to invoke this rule in a game where I could not see the clock. The moderator (a certain Mr. Potru, now of Michigan State) responded by saying "shut up". So, this rule is not always enforced. But a possible solution would be for the moderators to "mistakenly" but the clock in an awkward place (or for team members to hire ninjas to move the clocks before games).
Why should moderators bend the rules at all? The only reasonable thing to do in this case is to just change the rule. I can't see any good reason for having it in the first place, unless the purpose is to encourage such clock management.
Hey, tell that to Sudheer, who flat-out refused to enforce an NAQT rule.

In any event, I agree that NAQT's rule about not finishing the question is dumb, but I doubt that NAQT will change anything and was merely suggesting one way in which a wide-spread grassroots movement could practically neutralize it.
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Post by kCobain911 » Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:18 pm

Youse Da Force wrote: The Fortunes and Misfortunes of the Famous Moll Flanders, Etc. Who was born in Newgate, and during a life of continu'd Variety for Threescore Years, besides her Childhood, was Twelve Year a Whore, five times a Wife (whereof once to her own brother), Twelve Year a Thief, Eight Year a Transported Felon in Virginia, at last grew Rich, liv'd Honest and died a Penitent. Written from her own Memorandums.
BOok a Minute???

Sorry about that, i thought i was the only one who liked those book a minute things.

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Post by Tegan » Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:52 pm

cornfused wrote:Y'know, it's actually possible to use this in untimed rounds, too. In Illinois format, math computation questions get 30 seconds, but if there's an incorrect answer towards the end of the 30 seconds, the second team is guaranteed at least three seconds.

So what you COULD do (by which I mean that no one would actually ever do this) is if you're an awful math team, wait about 10 seconds and then buzz. Answer: One hundred and seventy-three quadrillion, eight hundred and eight-two trillion... etc etc. I think many teams would be distracted by the ridiculousness of the answer... and if you can drag it on long enough, they'll be left with only 3 seconds to do the math. Mind you, a good team would keep calculating through the insanery, but if you're willing to try this against a good team, you deserve to watch them get the points.

This startegy is proprietary information of Maine South High School Scholastic Bowl Inc. Our lawyers will be in contact with you regarding this breach of a lifetime contract which you signed.

Besides, we usually ring in with about fifteen seconds left and go from there.

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Post by naturalistic phallacy » Tue Aug 28, 2007 1:57 am

kCobain911 wrote:
Youse Da Force wrote: The Fortunes and Misfortunes of the Famous Moll Flanders, Etc. Who was born in Newgate, and during a life of continu'd Variety for Threescore Years, besides her Childhood, was Twelve Year a Whore, five times a Wife (whereof once to her own brother), Twelve Year a Thief, Eight Year a Transported Felon in Virginia, at last grew Rich, liv'd Honest and died a Penitent. Written from her own Memorandums.
BOok a Minute???

Sorry about that, i thought i was the only one who liked those book a minute things.
That's actually the full title of the book. Defoe was just that crazy.
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Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:56 am

nigeline wrote:
kCobain911 wrote:
Youse Da Force wrote: The Fortunes and Misfortunes of the Famous Moll Flanders, Etc. Who was born in Newgate, and during a life of continu'd Variety for Threescore Years, besides her Childhood, was Twelve Year a Whore, five times a Wife (whereof once to her own brother), Twelve Year a Thief, Eight Year a Transported Felon in Virginia, at last grew Rich, liv'd Honest and died a Penitent. Written from her own Memorandums.
BOok a Minute???

Sorry about that, i thought i was the only one who liked those book a minute things.
That's actually the full title of the book. Defoe was just that crazy.
Talking about this Rinkworks site, I think - they sum up famous books in less than a paragraph, and usually they're pretty funny.

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Post by kCobain911 » Tue Aug 28, 2007 6:08 pm

styxman wrote:
nigeline wrote:
kCobain911 wrote:
Youse Da Force wrote: The Fortunes and Misfortunes of the Famous Moll Flanders, Etc. Who was born in Newgate, and during a life of continu'd Variety for Threescore Years, besides her Childhood, was Twelve Year a Whore, five times a Wife (whereof once to her own brother), Twelve Year a Thief, Eight Year a Transported Felon in Virginia, at last grew Rich, liv'd Honest and died a Penitent. Written from her own Memorandums.
BOok a Minute???

Sorry about that, i thought i was the only one who liked those book a minute things.
That's actually the full title of the book. Defoe was just that crazy.
Talking about this Rinkworks site, I think - they sum up famous books in less than a paragraph, and usually they're pretty funny.

The Fortunes and Misfortunes of Moll Flanders Who Was Born In Newgate, and During a Life of Continu'd Variety For Threescore Years, Besides Her Childhood, Was Twelve Year a Whore, Five Times a Wife [Whereof Once To Her Own Brother], Twelve Year a Thief, Eight Year a Transported Felon In Virginia, At Last Grew Rich, Liv'd Honest, and Died a Penitent

in book a minute

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Post by Youse Da Force » Wed Aug 29, 2007 3:21 pm

kCobain911 wrote:
styxman wrote:
nigeline wrote:
kCobain911 wrote:
Youse Da Force wrote: The Fortunes and Misfortunes of the Famous Moll Flanders, Etc. Who was born in Newgate, and during a life of continu'd Variety for Threescore Years, besides her Childhood, was Twelve Year a Whore, five times a Wife (whereof once to her own brother), Twelve Year a Thief, Eight Year a Transported Felon in Virginia, at last grew Rich, liv'd Honest and died a Penitent. Written from her own Memorandums.
BOok a Minute???

Sorry about that, i thought i was the only one who liked those book a minute things.
That's actually the full title of the book. Defoe was just that crazy.
Talking about this Rinkworks site, I think - they sum up famous books in less than a paragraph, and usually they're pretty funny.

The Fortunes and Misfortunes of Moll Flanders Who Was Born In Newgate, and During a Life of Continu'd Variety For Threescore Years, Besides Her Childhood, Was Twelve Year a Whore, Five Times a Wife [Whereof Once To Her Own Brother], Twelve Year a Thief, Eight Year a Transported Felon In Virginia, At Last Grew Rich, Liv'd Honest, and Died a Penitent

in book a minute
If you notice, the condensation is shorter than the title.

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Post by Captain Sinico » Thu Aug 30, 2007 6:59 pm

Bruce wrote:Hey, tell that to Sudheer, who flat-out refused to enforce an NAQT rule.
I'd rather just tell you that your interpretation of Rule F.5 is grossly at odds with convention, that the accommodation you demanded is therefore onerous, and that granting it would be an untenable practice. I think you already know all those things and I think that Sudheer thought so, too, but, you know, in case you didn't...

Also, for reference:
NAQT wrote:If the official game clock is not visible to both teams, Rule (F.4.1) will not apply. Instead, the moderator will complete, in its entirety, any tossup-bonus cycle in progress.
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