VETO 2014 packet discussion

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Senator_Jay
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VETO 2014 packet discussion

Post by Senator_Jay »

I appreciate how Palmer has informed me that there is a potential boycott of my pack going on out on the Left Coast. I really hope it gets played at at least one of the sites! So long as you pay attention and can synthesize information well, I don't see why my pack needs to be that painful of an experience. Just think of it as "canon-expansion"!
Jay Misuk
McMaster University, 2009, 2010, 2016
University of Toronto, 2011, 2017, 2022
MEd. (Educational Linguistics) MSc. (CogSciLing), Hon. BA (Linguistics), BA (History), BEd. (History, Geography, Music, Math, Soc. Sci, Law, Latin)

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Deepika Goes From Ranbir To Ranveer
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by Deepika Goes From Ranbir To Ranveer »

Senator_Jay wrote:I appreciate how Palmer has informed me that there is a potential boycott of my pack going on out on the Left Coast. I really hope it gets played at at least one of the sites! So long as you pay attention and can synthesize information well, I don't see why my pack needs to be that painful of an experience. Just think of it as "canon-expansion"!
I don't like you (at all - AT ALL), but this is stupid. Just play the pack and you'll achieve some combination of answering things, hearing things and learning things.
Aayush Rajasekaran (he/him or she/her)
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minusfive
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by minusfive »

Senator_Jay wrote:I appreciate how Palmer has informed me that there is a potential boycott of my pack going on out on the Left Coast. I really hope it gets played at at least one of the sites! So long as you pay attention and can synthesize information well, I don't see why my pack needs to be that painful of an experience. Just think of it as "canon-expansion"!
odin_envy_me wrote:I don't like you (at all - AT ALL), but this is stupid. Just play the pack and you'll achieve some combination of answering things, hearing things and learning things.
I think you must have misunderstood-there's no "boycott" (although a couple of players expressed some concerns about vexation-style questions), and I believe if it isn't played at the tournament, it's on for the after-party. No Ontario angst story here.
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Mike Bentley
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by Mike Bentley »

Senator_Jay wrote:I appreciate how Palmer has informed me that there is a potential boycott of my pack going on out on the Left Coast. I really hope it gets played at at least one of the sites! So long as you pay attention and can synthesize information well, I don't see why my pack needs to be that painful of an experience. Just think of it as "canon-expansion"!
I think your questions from last year pretty much speak from themselves on why I and other people don't want to ever play a packet you wrote ever again. I'll quote some of them here. But one thing I'll also add is that Jay mentioned you intentionally wrote that packet as a "vexation packet". I don't know exactly what that means, but I'm going to assume that you were trolling the rest of the teams with your questions. That's certainly what I felt when playing that packet.
6. This specific subject largely relies upon oral tradition up until European contact and the establishment of Spanish control in 16th and 17th centuries, and structures remaining at sites such as Leluh. Pre-colonial study of this subject on the island known in the native tongue as “upon a stone altar” is divided into three periods, Kawa, Saudeleur, and Nahnmwarki. Little is known of the Kawa period due to paucity of records, but the Saudeleur period saw a foreign invasion that established a kingdom centered at Nan Madol, which has been described as the “Venice of the Pacific”. Around 1628, the Saudeleur dynasty was ended by the semi-mythical Isokelekel, who implemented the decentralized Nahnmwarki system in place throughout subsequent occupations, first by the Spanish, then Germany from 1899, Japan from 1920, then finally by the US as a Trust Territory established by the UN in 1947. FTP, what subject describes the past of the nation comprising the modern states of Yap, Truk, Kosrae, and Pohnpei?
Answer: History of Micronesia (prompt on such answers as ‘history’, or ‘Micronesia’)
12. One of the first of these was created from 1873-1910 at Garia, as a result of working conditions on Anticosti Island. The Moravian Church began to create these in the 1940’s in the process of developing Hebron and Nain, while Dr. Wilfred Grenfell created these through his work in developing St. Anthony and Charlottetown on the Great Northern Peninsula. An official Department of Welfare program from 1954-1965 offered between $150 and $600 per family to eventually create 115 of these, although subsequent programs in the late 1960’s and early 1970’s were much more successful. In 2013, approximately 600 of these exist, including such colourfully-named places as Indian Burying Place, Ireland’s Eye, and Pushthrough. FTP, resettlement programs and the decline of the fishing and shipbuilding industries in the 20th century led to the creation of places like Muddy Hole and Woody Island, each with no human population anymore.

Answer: Abandoned Communities of Newfoundland (accept anything to do with Newfoundland ghost towns)
18. Blue ribbons have been used to signify protest against the phenomenon that fuels this genre of film, which incorporates extensive use of what has been coined the “Cher effect”. One of the earliest successful examples encourages listeners to “stop having a boring life”, and features footage from an 80’s dance mix. Another example of this by the same artist features the likes of Jim Mora and Joe Namath. A more recent hit features the refrain: “My neighbour got big testicles cuz we see this dude everyday!” and features Cleveland resident Charles Ramsey. Perhaps the most-viewed example of this is a 2010 single featuring the artistic stylings of Antoine Dobson, who claims that you should hide your husband, “cuz they rapin’ everyone out here”. djsteveporter and schmoyoho are creators of, FTP, examples of what phenomenon on a popular social media website denigrated by such artists as Jay-Z and Christina Aguilera?

Answer: Use of Auto-Tune on YouTube (also accept anything to do with ‘songifying’ the news)
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by Senator_Jay »

Well, the whole point of VETO is for Canadian teams to get together over the summer to have a good time and reconnect. Given that packets over the years have included various sensory bonuses, "pirated" questions, sung answers, and even ACF Nats difficulty questions, the description of "guerrilla"-style pretty much implies that it's anything goes. It is not supposed to be "good" quizbowl, and as such, the whole point of my VETO pack last year and this year is to troll people, because that is what I find fun. Because everyone's so preoccupied with writing "good" quizbowl during the year, this tournament is a chance to have fun and write questions on things you wouldn't normally dream of hearing about. If it annoys the people who take this too seriously, then great, that's one of my goals with this. If other people playing these packets actually do well because of the obscurity and whatnot, that's great too. From what I remember last year, there were people who really enjoyed the experience, and people who really did not, and that's fine; everyone's entitled to their own opinion regarding packets. But really, if you don't want to play my pack because you think it's going to negatively affect your experience and standings playing in a guerrilla-style fun tournament, the standings of which have no bearing on your quizbowl "career" whatsoever (other than maybe the fantasy league), then don't, I could care less.
Jay Misuk
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by Auroni »

The point of quizbowl is to write questions that people can answer. Fun is had when questions get answered by people. Additional fun is had when those questions are answered and they're on creative or intrinsically funny great ideas. Fun is not had when questions are on purposefully idiotic answers that nobody can answer until the very end or at all. Negative fun is had when you go HAHA NEEEEEEERDS when other people object that your questions are shitty and unfun.
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by Cheynem »

I actually like that auto tune question a bit.
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by Cody »

Cheynem wrote:I actually like that auto tune question a bit.
The auto-tune question was a poor example. Let's focus on the two other atrocious tossups that disregard the most fundamental precept of question writing: you are writing fair questions for people to enjoy. If you want to inflict misery on people, save the effort and just don't write anything - people aren't interested.
Cody Voight, VCU ’14.
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by Mike Bentley »

Cheynem wrote:I actually like that auto tune question a bit.
Good luck figuring out you need "_On Youtube_"!
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Fado Alexandrino
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by Fado Alexandrino »

Senator_Jay wrote:Given that packets over the years have included various sensory bonuses, "pirated" questions, sung answers, and even ACF Nats difficulty questions, the description of "guerrilla"-style pretty much implies that it's anything goes. It is not supposed to be "good" quizbowl, and as such, the whole point of my VETO pack last year and this year is to troll people, because that is what I find fun.
If you want to troll people, you should consider writing questions for Reach for the Top.

Just to point out, VETO's own website says to make these questions of a Division 1 SCT level of difficulty. If people aren't going to follow this rule and the tournament alternates between CO+ and IS-A packets, it's going to be even less enjoyable than it already is.
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Senator_Jay
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by Senator_Jay »

No one has any obligation to play in any tournament. Either you allow for creativity and doing generally un-quizbowl-like things at a tournament like this, or you don't. Likewise, if you don't like VETO or the packets being made for it, then don't participate.
If you want to troll people, you should consider writing questions for Reach for the Top.


In response to that, I already work for them, and have considered it. I've also considered writing a set of post-secondary level Reach style play, so don't tempt me into writing a full set of packets for such an endeavour!
Jay Misuk
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University of Toronto, 2011, 2017, 2022
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by Bartleby »

Here's an idea: stop playing this atrocious waste-of-time tournament.

I mean, I don't really think Jay's out of line to do whatever the hell he wants in his VETO packet; as he points out, this is a tournament that once had a bonus asking people to pick up candy with chopsticks. But, the very fact that this tournament encourages this type of ridiculousness should be a sign to everyone that it needs to be put out to pasture.

We have a Canadian quiz bowl circuit that's really coming into its own. Last year we hosted more tournaments and got better attendance at those tournaments than I can ever remember. If people think this tournament is fun, then they should absolutely do it -- I'm trying to avoid making a value judgement on this tournament compared to 'good' quiz bowl. When we have posts like Joe's, though, which basically accept a baseline level of terrible for VETO even if everyone writes at a consistent level of difficulty, I question how many people find this to be 'fun', and how many people do it because it's what's on offer, and better than nothing.

If people want a good summer tournament in Canada that is produced by Canadians, they should create one. Playing VETO and writing a good pack, and hoping against hope that everyone else does too is not the answer. The answer is to create something better, independently. I would certainly assist with and support such an attempt. If people want to keep playing VETO, then they should do that too. Let's just go into this with no illusions that VETO can or ever will be anything different than it is.
Brian McNamara
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by Senator_Jay »

Brian, I agree and disagree. Obviously, I would like to see VETO continue, and in the same way that it has for over a decade; a fun middle-of-summer tournament that you can go to or not, because of free will and whatnot.

As for the agreement, yes, Canadian quizbowl has come a long way, and I feel as though this past year was pretty satisfactory as far as being able to keep busy up here, and seeing some teams really start to come into their own as a result of the increasing competition and participation. Therefore, I would join you, Brian, in creating a (to quote a concurrent discussion with Joe Su) "real" Canadian tournament for next year. One with reasonable guidelines, standards, and non-guerrilla style. Some central editing, a few centrally-made packets for finals, and we can tweak it so that it is still a Canadian experience (content guidelines, etc), and have it run with some side events. We could continue to have VETO for people like me who support the idea of fun, over-the-top type tournaments in the off-season, and then also have a more serious tournament that would be good practice for those people planning on attending other tournaments through the summer, like CO and VCU Open.

The choice is yours whether to play any tournament, there is no omnipotent force compelling you to have to give up a Saturday to play VETO or any other tournament. But we should at least try to create something good out of this, and thus I support Brian's idea for creating a new tournament for next year.
Jay Misuk
McMaster University, 2009, 2010, 2016
University of Toronto, 2011, 2017, 2022
MEd. (Educational Linguistics) MSc. (CogSciLing), Hon. BA (Linguistics), BA (History), BEd. (History, Geography, Music, Math, Soc. Sci, Law, Latin)

Tri-national competitor; tri-national neg champion.
To quote the ephemeral Jordan Palmer - "There is no shame, only points"
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by Auks Ran Ova »

Senator_Jay wrote:I find it really hilarious how one pack that hasn't even been submitted yet has caused so much strife from so many different directions. Anyone down for producing a QB reality show?
it's probably because your last packet was deliberately awful and even quizbowlers have pattern recognition skills that basic
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