Steering a Team Away From NAC

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High Dependency Unit
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Steering a Team Away From NAC

Post by High Dependency Unit » Sun Mar 09, 2014 1:55 pm

My team wants to go to :chip: . We are currently registered for NSC, but a majority of the team wants to go to NAC (because it is more "fun" and "the questions are better"). We have not played a :chip: tournament all year and we just won our NAQT state championship. How do I convince them otherwise?
Michael Borecki
Middlesex Middle '13,
Darien (co-captain) '17,
Bowdoin College (club president) '21
NHBB Regional Coordinator
www.ctquizbowl.org

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Re: Steering a Team Away From NAC

Post by Sniper, No Sniping! » Sun Mar 09, 2014 2:15 pm

Why is your team deciding what national tournament to attend?
Thomas Moore
Lancaster Fisher Catholic HS c/o 2014
Ohio Wesleyan University c/o 2018

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Re: Steering a Team Away From NAC

Post by High Dependency Unit » Sun Mar 09, 2014 2:27 pm

Mr. Scogan wrote:Why is your team deciding what national tournament to attend?
I honestly don't know why it came up. For the past couple months we've been planning on attending NSC, and then someone brought up the idea of :chip: because they felt NSC would be too difficult and wouldn't be "fun". All of a sudden, they got like seven people to agree with them. I will say that as a middle school team we attended JNAC. I swore that I would never go back: I'm not. However, I need to convince them that attending NSC is better.
Michael Borecki
Middlesex Middle '13,
Darien (co-captain) '17,
Bowdoin College (club president) '21
NHBB Regional Coordinator
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Re: Steering a Team Away From NAC

Post by Sniper, No Sniping! » Sun Mar 09, 2014 2:37 pm

If he/she isn't a regular player then don't let the decision rest with him. Assuming you're the captain/leader, what you and your coach thinks should ultimately matter.
Thomas Moore
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Ohio Wesleyan University c/o 2018

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Re: Steering a Team Away From NAC

Post by High Dependency Unit » Sun Mar 09, 2014 2:58 pm

They are regular players. Also, people don't listen to the coach (he's new to quiz bowl) that much, and they listen to me less. It's pretty much a free-for-all when it comes to making decisions.
Michael Borecki
Middlesex Middle '13,
Darien (co-captain) '17,
Bowdoin College (club president) '21
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Re: Steering a Team Away From NAC

Post by ryanrosenberg » Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:08 pm

Talking points: number of games offered, diversity of competition, chance of getting screwed over by Chip exponentially less at NSC. To support the last point, bring up the single-elimination bracket, the variability in QU questions from packet to packet, the recycling of questions, and the favoritism showed. I don't know how your JNAC experience was; you may have been lucky enough to avoid anything questionable happening to your team, but there are plenty of examples out there (the "Criticisms of the NAC" article on QBWiki is good for that, and I could also give you more recent ones if you need) that should be enough to convince players who prefer QU questions right now.
Ryan Rosenberg
North Carolina '16 | Ardsley '12
PACE | ACF

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Re: Steering a Team Away From NAC

Post by High Dependency Unit » Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:35 pm

Can I have some more recent ones?
Michael Borecki
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Darien (co-captain) '17,
Bowdoin College (club president) '21
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Re: Steering a Team Away From NAC

Post by zachary_yan » Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:44 pm

This is probably a wildly uninformed question, but why don't you guys go to HSNCT? I mean it's more "funn" and has an easier field than the NSC and it's also got a cheaper base fee than Chip bowl.
Wayzata '13
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Wayzata middle schools assistant

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Re: Steering a Team Away From NAC

Post by High Dependency Unit » Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:49 pm

HSNCT is fun. :chip: is "funn". We aren't going to HSNCT because it would be too logistically difficult at this point (quite a bit of red tape) and it's our club's first year, so we don't quite know exactly what we're doing.
Michael Borecki
Middlesex Middle '13,
Darien (co-captain) '17,
Bowdoin College (club president) '21
NHBB Regional Coordinator
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Re: Steering a Team Away From NAC

Post by ryanrosenberg » Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:34 pm

What I remember from the 2012 NAC:
-- Irvington losing a semifinal match on a math question that was protested and resolved wrongly
-- Tossups that asked you to name a _cable car_ and _goat_ by listening to the noise they make (different questions, it wasn't both at once)
-- A number of questions recycled from local QU tournaments

In regards to the quality of the field, the teams that play NAC are nowhere near the best teams in the country, and it would be disingenuous to call it a "national championship". The best teams that play are generally somewhere in the 80-100 range in the Morlan rankings, and most of the teams, in my experience, are nowhere near that standard.
Ryan Rosenberg
North Carolina '16 | Ardsley '12
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Re: Steering a Team Away From NAC

Post by the return of AHAN » Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:07 pm

The Predictable Consequences wrote: In regards to the quality of the field, the teams that play NAC are nowhere near the best teams in the country, and it would be disingenuous to call it a "national championship". The best teams that play are generally somewhere in the 80-100 range in the Morlan rankings, and most of the teams, in my experience, are nowhere near that standard.
ANNND, there's the main selling point to Master Borecki's teammates. That it wouldn't be a legitimate claim to being the best in the land is of no consequence. After all, it's not THEIR fault the LASAs and IMSAs of the world avoid NAC.
Jeff Price, Barrington Station Middle School Coach (2013 MSNCT Champions, 2013 & 2017 Illinois Class AA State Champions)
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Re: Steering a Team Away From NAC

Post by High Dependency Unit » Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:24 pm

the return of AHAN wrote:
The Predictable Consequences wrote: In regards to the quality of the field, the teams that play NAC are nowhere near the best teams in the country, and it would be disingenuous to call it a "national championship". The best teams that play are generally somewhere in the 80-100 range in the Morlan rankings, and most of the teams, in my experience, are nowhere near that standard.
ANNND, there's the main selling point to Master Borecki's teammates. That it wouldn't be a legitimate claim to being the best in the land is of no consequence. After all, it's not THEIR fault the LASAs and IMSAs of the world avoid NAC.
ANNND, you're right. They're afraid of losing badly.
Michael Borecki
Middlesex Middle '13,
Darien (co-captain) '17,
Bowdoin College (club president) '21
NHBB Regional Coordinator
www.ctquizbowl.org

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Re: Steering a Team Away From NAC

Post by Cheynem » Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:47 pm

At NSC, your team will play a range of teams with skill level and eventually end up playing teams with similar records/skill levels in hopefully competitive games.
Mike Cheyne
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Re: Steering a Team Away From NAC

Post by High Dependency Unit » Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:08 pm

And now they're being lured in by the cash prizes.
Michael Borecki
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Darien (co-captain) '17,
Bowdoin College (club president) '21
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Re: Steering a Team Away From NAC

Post by the return of AHAN » Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:54 pm

that YOU paid for with an inflated entry fee.
Jeff Price, Barrington Station Middle School Coach (2013 MSNCT Champions, 2013 & 2017 Illinois Class AA State Champions)
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Re: Steering a Team Away From NAC

Post by Sniper, No Sniping! » Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:03 am

Cheynem wrote:At NSC, your team will play a range of teams with skill level and eventually end up playing teams with similar records/skill levels in hopefully competitive games.
Sad thing is, if I'm predicting this right, if they're worried about not getting blown out then I'm not sure how PACE length tossups are going to make them want to come. Sometimes people are only in quiz bowl for the vacation.
Thomas Moore
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Re: Steering a Team Away From NAC

Post by KnicksRule » Tue Mar 18, 2014 6:10 pm

Mike, Darien is a solid team. You guys almost beat Charter this year, beat Lexington, and beat AMSA (albeit by 5 points in an overtime game). You will win a decent amount of games at PACE.

Tell them to look at stats from last year at PACE, especially at teams you have beaten this year. Also, it is no fun to go to a national tournament with no competition.
Abhinav Kurada
AMSA Charter School '12-'16
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Re: Steering a Team Away From NAC

Post by Howard » Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:02 pm

the return of AHAN wrote:that YOU paid for with an inflated entry fee.
It's not as bad now, but the first (and last) time I considered going to NAC, before really even knowing anything about it, this was my take. Another coach recommended it to me, saying we could win and get the cash. My take was that winning was statistically unlikely and there was no way I could justify spending several thousand dollars on one tournament whose advertising included questions with errors.

Realistically, this should be the decision of those who would attend and play. Your club does not exist to support QU, NAQT, or PACE. In fact, two of those exist to support your club. Your club does exist to support quiz competition activity and the students that participate. If you wish to boycott NAC, this should be your right and shouldn't be an issue.

The only confounding issue I see is that you've already started plans for NSC. And I'm not sure why HSNCT involves additional red tape but NAC doesn't. So that could be reasonable grounds for an authority figure to say the decision has already been made, but we can talk about what we want to do next year.
John Gilbert
Coach, Howard High School Academic Team
Ellicott City, MD

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Re: Steering a Team Away From NAC

Post by AKKOLADE » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:24 pm

KnicksRule wrote:Mike, Darien is a solid team. You guys almost beat Charter this year, beat Lexington, and beat AMSA (albeit by 5 points in an overtime game). You will win a decent amount of games at PACE.

Tell them to look at stats from last year at PACE, especially at teams you have beaten this year. Also, it is no fun to go to a national tournament with no competition.
Yeah, I don't just rank whoever in the top 200.
Fred Morlan
PACE President, 2018-19
International Quiz Bowl Tournaments, co-owner
University of Kentucky CoP, 2017
hsqbrank manager, NAQT writer (former subject editor), former hsqb Administrator/Chief Administrator, 2012 NASAT TD

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Re: Steering a Team Away From NAC

Post by Couch's Kingbird » Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:20 pm

If you guys has been practicing on pyramidal questions all year, then you're going to have to buy practice sets for the NAC (which, I understand, are quite expensive; also assuming that you would practice for it) and pay an additional $600/team in entry fees (bad ideas for clubs with not a lot of funds). Also, if you (Mikee) aren't going to go, and you are the strongest player on the team, shouldn't that be a pretty big talking point to sway everyone else from going?
Julia Tong
Middlesex MS 2011-2014
Darien 2014-2018; Co-Captain 2015-2018
Barnard 2018-2022
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Re: Steering a Team Away From NAC

Post by sbfromcopley » Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:50 pm

So Copley is traditionally a team that does go to NAC, i'm not entirely sure why it has been like that but it has been. This year we (as far as I know) are finally not going to go, and it is in large part because apparently we got screwed over last year at Chicago by some horrible handling of an in-game protest or something of that sort of thing. It also helps that this year the majority of the people on the team also realized that they no longer wanted to go to it when we could go to a much better tournament like HSNCT, but it had a lot to do with our coach also not being so compelled to go anymore. If I were you I would just try to make sure your teammates realize that 1) The questions are really sketchy, I think people have given examples above and 2) The tournament is run HORRIBLY, favoritism, lack of good judgement by moderators, it is really easy to get screwed over, weird misdirects, etc. Just try to make sure your team gets that the tournament is pretty awful, and if that doesn't work I guess I would just hope that your teammates experience some of these so that in the following years they won't want to go anymore. You have 3 more years to steer away, and hopefully you won't have to go this year either.

Also, I hope they realize that playing the teams that go to CHIP on the questions used there is an awful combination that results in a very apparent lack of fun. Sure, staying in Chicago is fun, or whatever site you guys would go to, but that's the same case for going to any other national tournament. Winning or losing games based on a series of riddles,weird questions about trundle beds and guessing a composer whose name starts with B when the sound doesn't work for an audio tossup (this happened my freshman year) is NOT fun or rewarding in any way.
Sayeef Moyen
Copley '15
Ohio State '19

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Re: Steering a Team Away From NAC

Post by Sniper, No Sniping! » Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:23 am

Athenatennis42122 wrote:If you guys has been practicing on pyramidal questions all year, then you're going to have to buy practice sets for the NAC (which, I understand, are quite expensive; also assuming that you would practice for it) and pay an additional $600/team in entry fees (bad ideas for clubs with not a lot of funds). Also, if you (Mikee) aren't going to go, and you are the strongest player on the team, shouldn't that be a pretty big talking point to sway everyone else from going?
(Not trying to backseat moderate/tell people how to post, but an observation: I never understand why people from the same high school team end up replying to each other on this board instead of having their own discussion off the board.)

Why the bullocks would anyone pay $$$ just to prepare for an already unpreparable tournament? I guess if there was a quasi-justifiable reason why lazy teams end up doing NAC vs NAQT, it's because you could win without actually being good or having to prepare, so of course no one who knows better is going to pay for prep material. How Chip Beall makes any money from selling practice sets is that there's always those ignorant teams that think shelling out money for crap questions somehow is advantageous not just for ChipBowl, but actual quiz bowl. Whopping majority of those teams actually might not know any better, which I guess is partly excusable. Then there are the teams that know what pyramidal style is, have played it, know that the resources for pyramidal quiz bowl are *free* but STILL choose NAC (I guess the school I'm thinking of is the Ohio school mentioned on Chip's testimonial page) for some mysterious reason.
Thomas Moore
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Re: Steering a Team Away From NAC

Post by the return of AHAN » Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:46 pm

Mr. Scogan wrote:
Athenatennis42122 wrote:If you guys has been practicing on pyramidal questions all year, then you're going to have to buy practice sets for the NAC (which, I understand, are quite expensive; also assuming that you would practice for it) and pay an additional $600/team in entry fees (bad ideas for clubs with not a lot of funds). Also, if you (Mikee) aren't going to go, and you are the strongest player on the team, shouldn't that be a pretty big talking point to sway everyone else from going?
(Not trying to backseat moderate/tell people how to post, but an observation: I never understand why people from the same high school team end up replying to each other on this board instead of having their own discussion off the board.)
Because they're NOT on the same high school team? Look at Julia's sig more closely. She was a teammate of Michael's at Middlesex, and anticipates attending Darien NEXT year.
Jeff Price, Barrington Station Middle School Coach (2013 MSNCT Champions, 2013 & 2017 Illinois Class AA State Champions)
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