Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

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Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by tksaleija » Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:21 am

I know Progcon had intentions to make a topic about this at some point, but with the season fast approaching, I thought it better to at least get this discussion up and running. Feel free to add tournaments (including dates, locations, and other pertinent info.) predictions, and discussions regarding the upcoming quiz bowl season in the state of Michigan.
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by Progcon » Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:16 pm

I was planning on making this thread once I knew some tournament dates. By this time last year, several coaches had contacted me. I might make a calendar sometime with tournament dates and dates to avoid (standardized test dates). At any rate, Michigan State is planning on hosting our fall tournament on October 14th. Details are to follow but we will probably be using a mACF housewrite.
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by tksaleija » Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:16 pm

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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by tksaleija » Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:48 pm

I know this is in Ohio, but for lower Michigan teams, the Columbian Expo might be an option. All the info is here. Only 3 teams have registered so far: https://www.naqt.com/registration/field ... nt_id=8491
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by tksaleija » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:51 am

Below is a link with information about the DCC Scop Novice 8 Tournament in October

http://www.hsquizbowl.org/forums/viewto ... =1&t=20369
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by Progcon » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:23 pm

Might want to consolidate all these links into a long form calendar as I had last year. Anyway, I have two pieces of news. First, is that MSU is planning on hosting our annual Rube Goldberg tournament on January 27, 2018. Please contact me ASAP if this poses issues for your team or there is an exiting conflict. I do not want to change the date, but if multiple teams have a big scheduling issue, it may be moved to earlier in the month. EDIT: we will be using NAQT's IS-170.

I have also learned that the Michigan State Championship (the one sponsored by Meijer and hosted by the MSU Honors College) will be using NAQT questions this year. This continues what we believe is a positive trend of using pyramidal questions at this tournament.
Last edited by Progcon on Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by tksaleija » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:34 pm

Progcon wrote:Might want to consolidate all these links into a long form calendar as I had last year. Anyway, I have two pieces of news. First, is that MSU is planning on hosting our annual Rube Goldberg tournament on January 27, 2018. Please contact me ASAP if this poses issues for your team or there is an exiting conflict. I do not want to change the date, but if multiple teams have a big scheduling issue, it may be moved to earlier in the month.

I have also learned that the Michigan State Championship (the one sponsored by Meijer and hosted by the MSU Honors College) will be using NAQT questions this year. This continues what we believe is a positive trend of using pyramidal questions at this tournament.
Do you know if the Fall Kickoff still has openings? My school wants to register but we're still holding tryouts and weren't sure if rosters needed to be finalized before registering.
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by CPiGuy » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:04 pm

Progcon wrote:I have also learned that the Michigan State Championship (the one sponsored by Meijer and hosted by the MSU Honors College) will be using NAQT questions this year. This continues what we believe is a positive trend of using pyramidal questions at this tournament.
Does this mean that the existing "NAQT Michigan State Championship" tournament which Michigan and MSU alternated hosting will no longer happen, or that they will be consolidated?
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by Progcon » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:19 am

I'm in an airport so I will edit this reply later. No, there will be both a NAQT state championship, with its unique HSNCT qualification procedure hosted by us and there will the traditional state championship sponsored by Meijer. The latter event will also run NAQT questions. I have no desire to combine the two tournaments for many reasons I will get into if you contact me privately.
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by CPiGuy » Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:18 pm

So, for the winter/spring:

MSU is hosting Rube Goldberg (Jan. 27)

Michigan is hosting our first Winter Invitational (Feb. 10)

and then MSU is hosting NAQT States and the state tournament.
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by tksaleija » Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:30 pm

CPiGuy wrote:and then MSU is hosting NAQT States and the state tournament.
Furthermore, the tentative info for these is:
1) NAQT States is April 7th and hosted by the MSU Academic Competition Club. They will be using a variation of SCT-18.
2. The state tournament is April 20-21, hosted by the MSU Honors College. They will be using IS-174 and IS-175A.
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by Important Bird Area » Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:32 pm

Progcon wrote:No, there will be both a NAQT state championship, with its unique HSNCT qualification procedure hosted by us and there will the traditional state championship sponsored by Meijer.
Apologies for the late posting, but for the record: NAQT state championships now use the same qualification procedures found at other regular-season NAQT tournaments.
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by tksaleija » Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:58 pm

Important Bird Area wrote:
Progcon wrote:No, there will be both a NAQT state championship, with its unique HSNCT qualification procedure hosted by us and there will the traditional state championship sponsored by Meijer.
Apologies for the late posting, but for the record: NAQT state championships now use the same qualification procedures found at other regular-season NAQT tournaments.
Does this mean that only the top 30% of teams at an NAQT tournament may attend NAQT states?
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by jonah » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:02 pm

tksaleija wrote:Does this mean that only the top 30% of teams at an NAQT tournament may attend NAQT states?
Who may attend a state championship is up to the tournament director.

The top 15% of eligible teams at an NAQT state championship will qualify for the HSNCT.

The top 30% of small school teams (separately for each SSNCT division) at an NAQT state championship will qualify for the SSNCT.
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by Progcon » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:52 pm

Important Bird Area wrote:
Progcon wrote:No, there will be both a NAQT state championship, with its unique HSNCT qualification procedure hosted by us and there will the traditional state championship sponsored by Meijer.
Apologies for the late posting, but for the record: NAQT state championships now use the same qualification procedures found at other regular-season NAQT tournaments.
When was this changed? I have been under the impression that the top placing team at each state's NAQT state tournament automatically qualified for HSNCT. I remember this being the procedure in the past almost surely.
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by CGismondiCC » Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:03 pm

CPiGuy wrote:So, for the winter/spring:

MSU is hosting Rube Goldberg (Jan. 27)

Michigan is hosting our first Winter Invitational (Feb. 10)

and then MSU is hosting NAQT States and the state tournament.
DCC will try to host another Spring tournament in May on SSNCT as well.
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by jonah » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:53 am

Progcon wrote:
Important Bird Area wrote:
Progcon wrote:No, there will be both a NAQT state championship, with its unique HSNCT qualification procedure hosted by us and there will the traditional state championship sponsored by Meijer.
Apologies for the late posting, but for the record: NAQT state championships now use the same qualification procedures found at other regular-season NAQT tournaments.
When was this changed? I have been under the impression that the top placing team at each state's NAQT state tournament automatically qualified for HSNCT. I remember this being the procedure in the past almost surely.
I don't understand your second sentence. It has always been (and remains) true that the top team at each NAQT state championship qualifies for the HSNCT, since such a team would necessarily be in the top 15%. (This doesn't apply to things like "JV State Championships" or other events that aren't qualifiers regardless.)

In the 2015–2016 competition year and earlier*, NAQT state championships were guaranteed to produce at least one new invitation to the HSNCT and (after the SSNCT was created) for the SSNCT (unless all applicable teams had already qualified). That policy was ended beginning with the 2016–2017 competition year. It is possible that you are referring to some version of this change.

*Offhand, I'm not sure since when, but it doesn't matter.
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by Important Bird Area » Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:12 am

It's also possible this might be a reference to our old "reserved berth" policy, which changed starting in fall 2014.
naqt.com in 2014 wrote:NAQT wants to highlight a change in its reserved-berth policy for the 2015 (and subsequent) HSNCTs. Instead of reserving a berth for every (division of every) state championship, we will be limiting the practice to state championships in areas of the country with limited participation.
(Reasoning behind this change:

In the early years of HSNCT, we reserved a berth for each state's champion in order to make sure that HSNCT had a geographically diverse field of the very best teams from around the country. As the HSNCT itself expanded in size, and as NAQT began supplying questions to many more local tournaments held earlier in the season, it eventually became the case that a majority of the reserved berths were dissolved because the teams winning state championships had already registered for nationals. By 2013 or so, the reserved-berth policy was actually keeping teams _out_ of HSNCT because the field filled before many state championships happened. So we decided to end the policy and treat state championships like any other tournament for qualification purposes.)
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by Progcon » Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:07 pm

jonah wrote:
Progcon wrote:
Important Bird Area wrote:
Progcon wrote:No, there will be both a NAQT state championship, with its unique HSNCT qualification procedure hosted by us and there will the traditional state championship sponsored by Meijer.
Apologies for the late posting, but for the record: NAQT state championships now use the same qualification procedures found at other regular-season NAQT tournaments.
When was this changed? I have been under the impression that the top placing team at each state's NAQT state tournament automatically qualified for HSNCT. I remember this being the procedure in the past almost surely.
I don't understand your second sentence. It has always been (and remains) true that the top team at each NAQT state championship qualifies for the HSNCT, since such a team would necessarily be in the top 15%. (This doesn't apply to things like "JV State Championships" or other events that aren't be qualifiers regardless.)

In the 2015–2016 competition year and earlier*, NAQT state championships were guaranteed to produce at least one new invitation to the HSNCT and (after the SSNCT was created) for the SSNCT (unless all applicable teams had already qualified). That policy was ended beginning with the 2016–2017 competition year. It is possible that you are referring to some version of this change.

*Offhand, I'm not sure since when, but it doesn't matter.
Thank you for the clarification. The reasoning for the change makes perfect sense, but I was not alerted (or more likely, did not remember) of this change. It doesn't really affect the way we'll be hosting NAQT Michigan this year or anything, but I just want to be able to tell teams accurate information. Again, thanks Jonah and Jeff.
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by tksaleija » Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:38 pm

I know this isnt a Michigan tournament, but for all south Michigan teams, here's something that might be good: https://www.naqt.com/registration/field ... nt_id=8495

It's the Eastwood Invitational In Pemberville, OH on March 3rd. Field's a little small now, so I'm hoping a signal boost might perk things up.
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by CPiGuy » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:09 pm

CPiGuy wrote:Michigan is hosting our first Winter Invitational (Feb. 10)
This has been postponed until March 10th because of snow.
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by tksaleija » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:25 pm

Does anybody know of any competitions in mid-to-late March?
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by Sarod Nori » Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:58 am

NASAT is on.
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by tksaleija » Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:46 pm

Saw that. Never participated since this has been my first year plugged into the forums, but I'm very excited nonetheless.
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by Progcon » Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:31 pm

At this point, the tentative plan is host NASAT tryouts at NAQT States at MSU on April 7th. We will probably be using WAO II as the question set at tryouts and read tossups only. Unlike last year, I will probably not be able to coach the team and drive and accompany the players to Kentucky. If that changes, I will let y'all know.

Edit: This is happening on April 7. Please contact me if you are interested in being on the MI team even if you cannot tryout that day. I want a balanced team that I feel will be able to answer NASAT level questions.
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by tksaleija » Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:44 pm

Happy birthday, Harris Bunker!
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by Sarod Nori » Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:14 pm

For the past few years, I have had the wonderful opportunity to experience good pyramidal high school quizbowl and have been the beneficiary of a strong quizbowl culture at my school. However, for many schools across the state, students are unable to play any form of good quizbowl and are stuck either with Jeopardy-style questions or with no quizbowl at all. While I am a supporter of strong pyramidal quizbowl across the state, the concerns that several schools brought up during MSU's state tournament last year (namely that since most Michigan schools do not play on pyramidal questions, the state championship should not use pyramidal questions) must be addressed.

Colleges around the state host tournaments that draw from nearby high schools and quizbowl leagues pop up in areas such as Detroit and Lansing; for years, this has been the main method of recruiting across the state. However, as shown at last year's POMMSS state championship, recruiting fails to reach a large portion of the state; other than in small pockets in Detroit, Lansing, and the UP, good quizbowl generally doesn't exist and bad questions are everywhere (yes, there are outliers such as TCC but they certainly aren't indicative of the general state of quizbowl around the state). College clubs such as those at MSU and UM have always been very strong recruiters, but the issue (as shown by the Honors College's insistence that this year's state championship be run once again on Jeopardy-style questions) is that individual clubs or small groups of people are no match for the scourge of bad quizbowl that has enveloped large parts of the state. If Michigan is to become a paragon of good quizbowl, we must form a state quizbowl association.

The main issue with current methods of recruiting is that college clubs don't have enough clout to dislodge years of bad quizbowl in schools statewide. If I went to a school and told them that one of their clubs was doing things incorrectly, I would be laughed off the campus. To convince school administrators that a change is necessary, they must be convinced that good quizbowl is practiced statewide. A state QB association can do this; if I went to the same school and introduced myself as a member of the state association, they would likely be more conducive to listening to what I have to say.

In addition to convincing schools to switch from bad to good quizbowl, a state association can also help schools who have no quizbowl start and maintain pyramidal quizbowl clubs. Currently, new schools have no method of easily determining what steps they should take or what tournaments they should attend. Unless they are able to talk to a coach or student at an already established quizbowl club, they don't know about the forums, NAQT, PACE, or any other provider/place of discussion of good quizbowl. They may see Jeopardy on TV and start on bad quizbowl without even realizing that pyramidal questions exist.

With a state association, we can draw these schools to good quizbowl; by having a website listing quizbowl tournaments in the area or by providing new clubs with suggested methods of maintaining a good quizbowl culture, we can convince them that pyramidal quizbowl is the way to go. Furthermore, since this association will be Michigan-based and since most members will be Michiganders, schools can see that quizbowl isn't run by a heartless and soulless national organization (not that national quizbowl organizations are necessarily heartless or soulless) but that there are people in many areas of the state who believe fully in the benefits of pyramidal quizbowl.

I would hope that this association would be up and running in time for the start of the school year in the fall so that students who consider starting a quizbowl club can turn to the state association for help. Of course, the details will be sorted out over the next few weeks and months; I look forward to hearing what others have to say in this regard.
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by tksaleija » Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:58 am

Sarod Nori wrote:For the past few years, I have had the wonderful opportunity to experience good pyramidal high school quizbowl and have been the beneficiary of a strong quizbowl culture at my school. However, for many schools across the state, students are unable to play any form of good quizbowl and are stuck either with Jeopardy-style questions or with no quizbowl at all. While I am a supporter of strong pyramidal quizbowl across the state, the concerns that several schools brought up during MSU's state tournament last year (namely that since most Michigan schools do not play on pyramidal questions, the state championship should not use pyramidal questions) must be addressed.

Colleges around the state host tournaments that draw from nearby high schools and quizbowl leagues pop up in areas such as Detroit and Lansing; for years, this has been the main method of recruiting across the state. However, as shown at last year's POMMSS state championship, recruiting fails to reach a large portion of the state; other than in small pockets in Detroit, Lansing, and the UP, good quizbowl generally doesn't exist and bad questions are everywhere (yes, there are outliers such as TCC but they certainly aren't indicative of the general state of quizbowl around the state). College clubs such as those at MSU and UM have always been very strong recruiters, but the issue (as shown by the Honors College's insistence that this year's state championship be run once again on Jeopardy-style questions) is that individual clubs or small groups of people are no match for the scourge of bad quizbowl that has enveloped large parts of the state. If Michigan is to become a paragon of good quizbowl, we must form a state quizbowl association.

The main issue with current methods of recruiting is that college clubs don't have enough clout to dislodge years of bad quizbowl in schools statewide. If I went to a school and told them that one of their clubs was doing things incorrectly, I would be laughed off the campus. To convince school administrators that a change is necessary, they must be convinced that good quizbowl is practiced statewide. A state QB association can do this; if I went to the same school and introduced myself as a member of the state association, they would likely be more conducive to listening to what I have to say.

In addition to convincing schools to switch from bad to good quizbowl, a state association can also help schools who have no quizbowl start and maintain pyramidal quizbowl clubs. Currently, new schools have no method of easily determining what steps they should take or what tournaments they should attend. Unless they are able to talk to a coach or student at an already established quizbowl club, they don't know about the forums, NAQT, PACE, or any other provider/place of discussion of good quizbowl. They may see Jeopardy on TV and start on bad quizbowl without even realizing that pyramidal questions exist.

With a state association, we can draw these schools to good quizbowl; by having a website listing quizbowl tournaments in the area or by providing new clubs with suggested methods of maintaining a good quizbowl culture, we can convince them that pyramidal quizbowl is the way to go. Furthermore, since this association will be Michigan-based and since most members will be Michiganders, schools can see that quizbowl isn't run by a heartless and soulless national organization (not that national quizbowl organizations are necessarily heartless or soulless) but that there are people in many areas of the state who believe fully in the benefits of pyramidal quizbowl.

I would hope that this association would be up and running in time for the start of the school year in the fall so that students who consider starting a quizbowl club can turn to the state association for help. Of course, the details will be sorted out over the next few weeks and months; I look forward to hearing what others have to say in this regard.
I wholeheartedly support said association. I have complained about the prevalence of bad questions in my area on other threads, and I know how little reach modern quiz bowl has in our little mitten state. A centralized authority that helps guide new and growing teams in the right direction would help bring Michigan closer to a state of modern quiz bowl practices. Furthermore, I would be completely willing to help in any applicable capacity that I can. I love quiz bowl and the camaraderie that it brings, and I fully support any effort to spread that feeling and desire for learning in our little mitten state.
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by Progcon » Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:56 pm

Hey guys. First, thanks for the happy birthday Aleija.

Re. Sarod: I'm not sure where you heard that the MSU Honors College's State Tournament is running Jeopardy! style questions from. I have worked with them and have been ensured they are running two NAQT sets over the two days. In fact, I believe this is noted on NAQT's website. The use of NAQT questions on the state level is a marked improvement. My understanding is that there are some coaches that really prefered pyramidal questions after the use of our POMMSS set last year, and some that did not. The hope is that continued use of pyramidal questions will start to get teams to run higher quality questions in their individual leagues and the "good quizbowl" circuit will expand. I have been working on improving the State Tournament for 3 years now, and have complained about question quality going back to 2015, so I feel your pain but know this is much,much better than Academic Hallmarks.

Secondly, me and some U-M students worked on some preliminary stuff for the Michigan Quizbowl Alliance at the beginning of last year, but the project got abandoned as we started the semester, etc. Being a full-time college student is a lot of work, and the collaboration with the U-M students added another element. I will work to bring back the Alliance and plan to lead it during my last year at MSU. The website will have an accurate calendar, links to study materials like the packet archive, how to start a team, etc. Much of that information was on the website, but the website's domain did not get renewed for some reason. I apologize for the inconvenience and will work--as I have been working--to improve the quality of quizbowl in the state of Michigan. I have been involved in Michigan qb for 6 years now and am willing to help any new team that seeks advice.
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by Sarod Nori » Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:13 pm

Regarding Harris's first point, I'm not saying that the Honors College tournament is using Jeopardy!-style questions this year. Perhaps my wording was a bit unclear, but I am fully in favor of the shift to NAQT questions. My point is that before last year, the Honors College tournament ran on non-pyramidal questions and still ran with a sizable number of schools. This shows that there are schools in Michigan who have heard of quizbowl, who are willing to drive to and from MSU to play it, and who are willing to spend a large portion of their weekend playing it; there is demonstrated interest in quizbowl around the state, not just in established clubs. If we can convert this demonstrated interest into more schools playing good quizbowl, it will be helpful in realizing the full good quizbowl potential present in the state.

I believe should listen to the schools that had an issue with last year's POMMSS questions; this doesn't mean shifting back to Academic Hallmarks. Instead, we should listen to why they play bad quizbowl and try to show them, through tournaments and otherwise, why good quizbowl is good for their individual club and for everyone associated with it. I think there was a tendency to think of the concerns raised by bad quizbowl schools last year as unimportant, but if we are going to spread good quizbowl to all corners of the state (as I hope we will someday), we must reach the coaches at the human level instead of trying to force good quizbowl on them unwillingly. The fact that Harris had to post
Progcon, in last year's Michigan schedule and discussion thread, wrote:The MSU Honors College is debating whether or not they will be hiring our club again to write the questions. They may return to non-pyramidal questions again.
means that there is a real possibility that the Honors College will, in the future, decide to return to Jeopardy! questions unless the clamor for good quizbowl around the state convinces the people at the Honors College that pyramidal quizbowl is good for MSU, the Honors College, and the state of Michigan.

To address Harris's second point, I agree that you have been working tirelessly to spread quizbowl across the state and I am grateful for that. I personally wouldn't be able to experience pyramidal quizbowl if it weren't for the numerous tournaments that Harris has run at MSU, and I'm happy that you are going to remain deeply involved in quizbowl across the state. The association that I am proposing is not going to take away from your efforts; instead, it exists to coordinate outreach.

The Michigan Quizbowl Alliance from last year is great, and I welcome its return. It probably should be the state quizbowl organization, but there needs to be some continuity to any viable state quizbowl alliance. The fact that it fizzled out at the start of the semester is worrisome, but if we can figure out a method of solving the time issue (which probably can be solved over the summer), then the Michigan Quizbowl Alliance should be the state quizbowl organization. What I have noticed through a cursory glance at the past few years' worth of Michigan discussion forums is that somebody will propose a state QB alliance, somebody else will express their support, nobody will do anything, and the cycle will repeat one year later. My goal is to break this cycle and to finally have a lasting state QB alliance, and I will support any organization that tries to do this.
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by Progcon » Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:19 pm

One issue that I see with starting an organization is looking at who in this state runs tournament. Michigan State and The University of Michigan have ran the lion share of tournaments as far back as I am aware of, and that's fine. However, we need buy-in from coaches in different areas of the state to make sure that the Alliance is successful. On that note, I'm looking to work directly with coaches in the next year to spread good quizbowl in Michigan, so I am looking for one coach from the following regions to help me and the Alliance:

Metro Detroit (Wayne, Oakland, Macomb and Washtenaw Counties)
Mid Michigan/Lansing/Jackson
Grand Rapids area
Northern Lower Peninsula
Port Huron/The Thumb
Upper Peninsula

All help is appreciated and I hope to announce more about this later. If you have any ideas, feel free to post here or email me!
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by Sarod Nori » Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:26 pm

The following is a message that I received from someone who is quite involved in outreach; hopefully we can use some of his advice in developing the Alliance:
Great to hear that y'all are thinking of doing this. Some advice based on past experience:

- You NEED coaches involved in this as well as college players. Even better if there's quizbowl alumni who are permanently living in the area and will thus be around for a long time. If you only do current players at the HS and college level, they're going to be gone in a few years and your organization with it.

- The Honors College @ MSU sounds like a thing where you might need to enlist state politicians to help. Seriously, set up a meeting with any state politician who's on the education committee and represents local QB schools (it seems like DCC for instance has a friendly relationship with some local pols?).

- Build off outposts like Traverse City Central--any school in a quizbowl-deficient region can be a good place to host a tournament with the aid of other people around the state.

- Be as friendly as possible with any non-pyramidal schools that you contact. Win them over by persistence, peer pressure, and running better events* than bad quizbowl.

* Make sure that EVERY pyramidal tournament in the state is well-run. Have experienced TDs work with new TDs on this. The failure of a few pyramidal events during the course of the year will almost certainly be viewed as a stain on all of pyramidal quizbowl, not just the host of that tournament.

- Starting up this kind of organization will take a lot of work on the part of a few people. It's usually easier to have a few people just kind of start this rather than try to work by committee the whole time. Find a few other dedicated folks and work to get a good resource website up and start posting tournament coverage.

- Much of the key to success might be in making quizbowl a better social experience across the whole state. In PA, we've used an in-state-only Discord as a great launching point for forging friendships, asking people to staff things, and sharing information in general. I would highly recommend something like this to help better bind HS/College/other people.
Hopefully this is helpful.
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by tksaleija » Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:33 pm

Sarod Nori wrote:
The Michigan Quizbowl Alliance from last year is great, and I welcome its return. It probably should be the state quizbowl organization, but there needs to be some continuity to any viable state quizbowl alliance. The fact that it fizzled out at the start of the semester is worrisome, but if we can figure out a method of solving the time issue (which probably can be solved over the summer), then the Michigan Quizbowl Alliance should be the state quizbowl organization. What I have noticed through a cursory glance at the past few years' worth of Michigan discussion forums is that somebody will propose a state QB alliance, somebody else will express their support, nobody will do anything, and the cycle will repeat one year later. My goal is to break this cycle and to finally have a lasting state QB alliance, and I will support any organization that tries to do this.
What do you mean by organization? I think that any group or association would start out as just some people doing quite a bit of outreach (as Harris has done), and following that up with asking for people to take the reins at some point in the future. As wonderful as it would be, I doubt the MHSAA would take quiz bowl under its jurisdiction and moderate it to the extent that athletics does, thus creating a massive change over the course of a summer. I think we currently have the resources for a state organization, it just (as Harris mentioned while I was typing this) needs multiple coaches from different areas to put in time/funds/etc. This is not to say that current coaches aren't doing their part, as DCC is just one example of a school that tries to reach middle and high school levels, but a more widespread outreach is needed in several areas in order to facilitate real change. Get more middle school tournaments, which will thus lead to high school interest and more high school tournaments, or try to do both. Either way, any statewide effort has to be just that, STATEwide. As this conversation has stirred up more thought-provoking discussion than the Michigan thread has seen in some time, it's my hope that that this train of thought will grab the interest of other coaches or blooming ms/hs players.
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by Sarod Nori » Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:50 pm

I mean organization as in a group of people that are the overseeing body of quizbowl in the state, kind of like MOQBA in Missouri or Greater PA Quizbowl in Pennsylvania. Ideally this body should consist of representatives from different aspects of the current Michigan quizbowl system, such as college club members and coaches. It should also be geographically diverse; as Harris mentioned, we're going to need members from different parts of the state.

I don't know if more middle school tournaments will necessarily translate into more high school interest; it seems like most middle schoolers in the state stop at that level and most high schoolers don't go on to college quizbowl. We should probably start with high school while focusing the middle school efforts on maintaining the current level of participation. Once the Alliance has developed far enough, it will probably be possible to have a strong focus on both middle and high school efforts. However, I think we should focus on high school now and should put middle school as a long-term (hopefully not too long-term) goal.

Also, it seems like high school participation drives middle schools to join good quizbowl and not as much the other way around. Okemos high school quizbowl has run without too much intrusion from the school administration whereas our middle school academic competition program died with the death of KMO and remains dead even with years of lobbying by our coach and offers by multiple members of the high school club to help run practices at the middle school. I don't know how representative this is of the general situation across the state, but I think administrations generally give clubs more leeway in high school whereas middle school clubs are strictly controlled and are therefore harder to reach without a high school quizbowl presence in the same district.
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by tksaleija » Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:18 pm

I can see how it can vary from region to region, but for the Monroe area, ms teams outnumber hs teams by around 20-25:10. Like I said, I'm sure that this is not the case for all regions, but there's obviously a disconnect somewhere between ms and hs, at least to some extent. If we reach out to the ms and possible hs coaches, we can possibly facilitate a transition between the two levels and keep exiting middle schoolers interested in the hs circuit. Should this be the sole goal? Nope. Should it be something that is considered as a possible way to increase high school interest. Yes. Though I would agree that, ultimately, high school should be the primary focus. Paying attention to ms interest is simply needed to prevent lapses in progress when middle schoolers move to hs and are decidedly unmotivated because they have little experience with pyramidal questions.
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by Everything in the Whole Wide World » Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:33 pm

Sarod Nori wrote:I mean organization as in a group of people that are the overseeing body of quizbowl in the state, kind of like MOQBA in Missouri or Greater PA Quizbowl in Pennsylvania. Ideally this body should consist of representatives from different aspects of the current Michigan quizbowl system, such as college club members and coaches. It should also be geographically diverse; as Harris mentioned, we're going to need members from different parts of the state.
Just as clarification and in case this helps, GPQB isn't an overseeing body for Pennsylvania. What we do is give coverage and awards to local students who excel in an effort to raise awareness of quizbowl in PA, and we also act as the social media presence for PA high school quizbowl, so to speak. Our goal is to help build up the teams and coaches that run the state so that they have the strength to reform non-pyramidal leagues and institutionalize good quizbowl, rather than run it ourselves. Most of the outreach work that's turned Pennsylvania into a much larger quizbowl state has been through some amazing, hardworking coaches, who know teachers at other schools and do a sales pitch to them. Strong community building in the form of personal connections, mutual encouragement, and welcoming, well run tournaments has helped when teams from regions without good quizbowl do show up, and this has allowed us to eventually build those teams up to the point where they can host and build other teams near them. The process is slow and requires lots of long term investment (probably a reason why relying on coaches, rather than either high school or college players, has been fruitful), but I am sure Michigan has both the passionate individuals and desire to accomplish something similar.
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by CGismondiCC » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:53 pm

As wonderful as it would be, I doubt the MHSAA would take quiz bowl under its jurisdiction and moderate it to the extent that athletics does, thus creating a massive change over the course of a summer.
I think an outside organization with limited (or no) experience of any kind in quiz bowl suddenly undertaking a presence as a governing body is probably not good.

As I stated when the idea of a Michigan Quiz Bowl Alliance popped up a couple of years ago, the DCC coaches are more than willing to help get this off the ground in any way possible/necessary. I do think, however, if this were to happen, a young and enthusiastic core of hard-working individuals would better serve as the face of this type of organization rather than the curmudgeonly presence of me or Coach Herman.
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by tksaleija » Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:08 pm

1. You're right. I was using MHSAA as an example because they're a strong central governing power (stronger than what we have anyways) and it would be good to have something like that, but you're right that they themselves should not take the reins.

2. I agree with this, though how would you suggest going about this? To clarify, this is NOT me saying, "oh, this isn't really feasible," I'm genuinely wondering what suggestions you (or others) would have on recruiting a stronger student-led base.
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by An Economic Ignoramus » Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:38 pm

CGismondiCC wrote:
As wonderful as it would be, I doubt the MHSAA would take quiz bowl under its jurisdiction and moderate it to the extent that athletics does, thus creating a massive change over the course of a summer.
I think an outside organization with limited (or no) experience of any kind in quiz bowl suddenly undertaking a presence as a governing body is probably not good.

As I stated when the idea of a Michigan Quiz Bowl Alliance popped up a couple of years ago, the DCC coaches are more than willing to help get this off the ground in any way possible/necessary. I do think, however, if this were to happen, a young and enthusiastic core of hard-working individuals would better serve as the face of this type of organization rather than the curmudgeonly presence of me or Coach Herman.
Can confirm from being from Illinois that having state athletic governing bodies run quizbowl is not always the best idea. Based on my experience, again, being from Illinois, having coaches as the core of a state governing body is not necessarily a bad thing either.
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by Sarod Nori » Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:51 pm

I agree that we probably shouldn't have the MHSAA running quizbowl in the state, but I think that coaches will probably need to be very involved in order for the Alliance to be successful. A lot of outreach will probably necessitate the training of new TDs so that they can run their tournaments effectively, but (especially in hard to reach areas like the UP and the Lower Peninsula north of Mount Pleasant), colleges are sparse and quizbowl-playing colleges are basically nonexistent. Therefore, most tournaments across the state will probably be run in schools, meaning that the coaches of these schools need to be an integral part of any successful quizbowl Alliance. One large issue is road connectivity. 75, 127, and 131 are basically the only ways of getting to anywhere in the northernmost three-quarters of the state, unlike places where good quizbowl has thrived (such as Missouri, Pennsylvania, and Illinois), which are largely flat with decent road connectivity. By involving coaches, the issue of Michigan's road connectivity can be mitigated.

On a tangential note, has anybody contacted the clubs at Michigan Tech/Northern Michigan to see if they would be interested in joining the Alliance? Since they are basically the hub of UP quizbowl, having them join the Alliance would be pretty useful.
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by alexdz » Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:40 pm

As a member of the other state organization that has been mentioned (Missouri's MOQBA), I'd like to clarify and provide some input on what we did to start.

(1) Like has been clarified about PA, MOQBA is also not a state governing body for quizbowl in Missouri. [The official state tournament is run by MSHSAA (the state athletic association).]

(2) MOQBA's founding members were several individuals involved in running pyramidal tournaments. We came together with modest goals: increase the number of pyramidal events available, and increase their quality. For the first several years, this was more or less all we did. There was not a big push to convert other organizations to pyramidal, but rather to create some draw and prestige to our own events. Once we had some consistent attendees, word began to spread that this pyramidal game was pretty cool. Eventually, several coaches had completely switched their support to pyramidal tournaments, and they were invited to join as members.

Given that experience, I would urge you to try something similar at first. This organization's first goals should not be to make wholesale institutional change right from the get-go. Don't push - pull. Attract teams to your events by virtue of them being exceptionally well-run. Eventually, you'll be able to make changes in a more statewide fashion.
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by Mnemosyne » Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:42 pm

I 100% endorse Alex's post above. We've gone through a similar alliance-forming process in Louisiana over the last 6 years. In 2012, there were two (legitimate) NAQT tournaments in the state. This year there were 18. When I first graduated high school, I was super ambitious and thought we could just convince all these high school teachers to switch over to our format, take over the state organization, etc. That all failed. What we DID do was just consistently host as many high-quality pyramidal tournaments as we could all over the state. Coaches aren't stupid - they'll (mostly) know a good product when they see it. Eventually you get coaches telling you at tournaments that they enjoy this format more than the local one, and you can start to build up some support before trying to make a big move.

In my opinion, unless you have some serious clout, an alliance should just be an alliance - people working together to host good pyramidal tournaments.
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by Sarod Nori » Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:52 pm

I think the issue with Michigan is that we're going to need coaches to host tournaments if the number of tournaments around the state is to increase. It's very hard for any college club to help run tournaments that, for example, are in the Thumb because quizbowl-playing colleges don't really exist there and it would take a while for somebody from MSU or UM to go out there and help them figure out how to run a tournament. I'm not saying that we should aim to do everything in a year, because that wouldn't be possible, but in order to get coaches to run tournaments in quizbowl-deficient areas, we need to move quickly.
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by tksaleija » Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:00 pm

So then this should be an outreach effort centered around contacting coaches who have active teams but don't necessarily host tournaments. We could focus on possibly pitching the upsides of hosting a tournament (i.e. good fundraiser, brings more revenue for local businesses, etc.). Though with this, I would also suggest reaching out to "cold markets." These are teams that are active in your area, but not in pyramidal tournaments. These together would A) possibly bring about more tournaments which would B) Give new teams more opportunities to attend (theoretically) well-run events. In the long run, this would result in C) New teams becoming interested in pyramidal quiz bowl and attending more tournaments, creating a greater interest and possibly convincing these new teams to consider hosting small tournaments as well (eventually).
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by Sarod Nori » Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:03 pm

I think the initial goal (at least for the first few months) is maintaining what we have currently. If there is a website with a clear schedule and tips for starting/maintaining a quizbowl club at a school, there will be benefits to that. After a few months of that, then the next step should be to expand. It's much easier to expand if you look professional and if you look like you know what you're doing than if you look disorganized.
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by tksaleija » Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:08 pm

Sarod Nori wrote:I think the initial goal (at least for the first few months) is maintaining what we have currently. If there is a website with a clear schedule and tips for starting/maintaining a quizbowl club at a school, there will be benefits to that. After a few months of that, then the next step should be to expand. It's much easier to expand if you look professional and if you look like you know what you're doing than if you look disorganized.
I agree with rebooting the website, as keeping up a website would help draw in new teams.
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by CPiGuy » Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:00 pm

Oh hey, this has been a considerable and productive conversation that I've totally missed!

Anyway, as Michigan's external director, I'm very on board with helping out with this -- the caveat is that I'll be studying abroad in the fall, so I won't really be able to do much then.

I also think it would be a good idea to have a central place where tournaments are posted -- many people didn't know Winter Invitational was happening until I e-mailed them directly, because they don't religiously check the forums, and announcements are very quickly buried. If there were an easily publicized website (perhaps even with a mailing list coaches could sign up for!) that listed all the tournaments happening in Michigan, that would be a major improvement in my mind.
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by Sarod Nori » Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:25 pm

CPiGuy wrote: I also think it would be a good idea to have a central place where tournaments are posted -- many people didn't know Winter Invitational was happening until I e-mailed them directly, because they don't religiously check the forums, and announcements are very quickly buried. If there were an easily publicized website (perhaps even with a mailing list coaches could sign up for!) that listed all the tournaments happening in Michigan, that would be a major improvement in my mind.
Agreed. I've developed a quick mockup of what this website should probably look like. It's a rough draft, but it has most of the things that I think a state quizbowl alliance's website should have.
Last edited by Sarod Nori on Thu May 10, 2018 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by tksaleija » Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:18 pm

Sarod Nori wrote:
CPiGuy wrote: I also think it would be a good idea to have a central place where tournaments are posted -- many people didn't know Winter Invitational was happening until I e-mailed them directly, because they don't religiously check the forums, and announcements are very quickly buried. If there were an easily publicized website (perhaps even with a mailing list coaches could sign up for!) that listed all the tournaments happening in Michigan, that would be a major improvement in my mind.
Agreed. I've developed a quick mockup of what this website should probably look like. It's a rough draft, but it has most of the things that I think a state quizbowl alliance's website should have.
I know very little about webpage design, but as a normal internet user, the mockup looks nice, Sarod. While I wouldn't be of much help designing said site, I'd be happy to perform some of the outreach needed for any Michigan alliance as that is more up my alley.
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Re: Michigan 2017-2018 Schedule and Discussion

Post by CPiGuy » Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:27 pm

I like that website. I'm terrible at backend web design, but I'd be willing to contribute content (e.g. writeups that the webmaster could copy and paste) that didn't require me to learn programming languages. I also don't know whether Squarespace is like Google Sites in that it's easy to design, in which case I could do more, probably.

I also think a good thing to have would be a type of "best quizbowl practices" page, with advice for tournament hosts, but more importantly advice for coaches: things like "make sure that your teams know what room they're playing in" and "don't field eight players on one team, please". (I'm considering for Michigan's tournaments just outright banning teams of more than six, and teams of more than five when a school brings 2 or more teams, but that's not something I expect every tournament host to do.)
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