The thirty-or-zero problem (80s trash)

[bt_green_warbler]

In reference to the 1980's trash: I just remember at HSNCT our team would basically 30 or 0 a bonus on it. It's basically something you're going to know quite a bit about or none.

In theory, this should be a writing problem rather than a distribution problem. Let's look at the 80s trash bonuses from HSNCT and see what the issues are.

[bt_green_warbler]

There were three bonuses about 80s trash in the 2011 HSNCT:

For 10 points each--answer the following about drummers:

A. Since 1963, Charlie Watts has been manning the drums for this band that includes Keith Richards and Mick Jagger.

answer: The _Rolling Stones_

B. This former Genesis drummer sang "I've been waiting for this moment all my life" in his solo hit "In the Air Tonight."

answer: Phil(ip David Charles) _Collins_

C. Rick Allen still plays drums for this "Pour Some Sugar on Me" band despite losing his left arm in an auto accident.

answer: _Def Leppard_

For 10 points each--name these stars of the 1982 movie ~Tootsie~ who would go on to win Oscars:

A. This lead actor in ~Tootsie~ had earlier won an Oscar for ~Kramer vs. Kramer~ and would do so again later for ~Rain Man~.

answer: Dustin (Lee) _Hoffman_

B. She won an Oscar as Julie Nichols in ~Tootsie~ and later won Best Actress for the 1994 film ~Blue Sky~.

answer: Jessica (Phyllis) _Lange_

C. She had a small part in ~Tootsie~ as an often-undressed actress, and won a 1989 Oscar for playing the eccentric Muriel Pritchett.

answer: (Virginia Elizabeth) Geena _Davis_
[Her Oscar was for ~The Accidental Tourist~.]

For 10 points each--name these films directed by Brian De Palma:

A. De Palma's first success was this 1976 Stephen King adaptation about a telekinetic girl.

answer: _Carrie_

B. This 1980 Angie Dickinson film has its lead actress murdered abruptly in the first act of the film.

answer: _Dressed to Kill_

C. One of {De Palma}'s most popular works is this film from 1983 which features Al Pacino shouting "say hello to my little friend!"

answer: _Scarface_

[Tower Monarch]

Well, I would say none of these look like thirty-or-zero bonuses. They all seem to have the pattern easy-hard-medium, with the exception of Tootsie which looks easy-medium-hard.
I see one issue with the De Palma film bonus, though. Neither Scarface or Carrie are inherently harder than the other and in both bonus parts giveaway clues were given. That suggests to me that getting 10 on this bonus is unlikely (0's unlikely but possible, 20 missing Accidental Tourist is possible and 30 is possible). I would rewrite one of these two parts without a giveaway clue (maybe remove Stephen King from Carrie and mention the cast) to get a real "medium" part.
For the music bonus, I'm less confident there is an issue, but I might argue Collins from "former Genesis drummer sang" and Def Leppard from "Pour Some Sugar on Me" are also pretty equal in difficulty, which suggests a 20 on the bonus is unlikely.

[Cheynem]

The first bonus seems okay (at least in the sense of accessible answers). The second bonus is kind of annoying--if you've seen Tootsie and can remember actors' names (or, alternatively, if you memorize Oscar lists), it's pretty easy, otherwise, aside from the first part, it's pretty difficult, as Jessica Lange and Geena Davis have been off the Hollywood radar for a while (furthermore, the Geena Davis part doesn't come close to giving Davis' best known roles, Oscar aside--and not even the title of the film!). The third bonus is better--Carrie and Scarface have some resonance in our culture today, although I think Dressed to Kill is really pushing it.

I'm not sure if these are inherently 30 or nothing because they are '80s trash. I can easily see people with the first and third bonuses getting some parts and not getting others. The second part seems heavily ill advised and probably might be what people are thinking when they think 30 or 0.

[Down and out in Quintana Roo]

Unless we're talking absolutely iconic trash, things that virtually no teenager would have zero knowledge of all regardless of how old the topic was, having entire trash bonuses about pop culture topics that occurred completely before any of the attendees of this tournament were even born seems a little silly.

I think only sports could possibly be the exception here, as the history of major sports like baseball and football (and to a lesser degree, basketball) is well known to many teenage fans of those sports. Many young baseball fans, for instance, could name things about some of the greatest teams and players in MLB past simply because they are mentioned on TV so constantly as modern teams and players approach certain records or milestones.

These kinds of modern reminders of "older" trash knowledge don't occur nearly as much with music, movies, or TV from 20+ years ago, making them probably way less accessible.

Of course, my real opinion is that trash doesn't belong in a Nationals tournament at all, but that's not really the discussion here.

[Bartleby]

The first bonus seems okay (at least in the sense of accessible answers). The second bonus is kind of annoying--if you've seen Tootsie and can remember actors' names (or, alternatively, if you memorize Oscar lists), it's pretty easy, otherwise, aside from the first part, it's pretty difficult, as Jessica Lange and Geena Davis have been off the Hollywood radar for a while (furthermore, the Geena Davis part doesn't come close to giving Davis' best known roles, Oscar aside--and not even the title of the film!). The third bonus is better--Carrie and Scarface have some resonance in our culture today, although I think Dressed to Kill is really pushing it.

I'm not sure if these are inherently 30 or nothing because they are '80s trash. I can easily see people with the first and third bonuses getting some parts and not getting others. The second part seems heavily ill advised and probably might be what people are thinking when they think 30 or 0.

I agree with Mike. None of these seem like 30 or 0 bonuses. In fact, I'd say high schoolers have a reasonable chance of 30ing the first, and 20ing the third. I share Mike's concerns with the middle bonus, however.

[Andrew's a Freshman]

I think only sports could possibly be the exception here, as the history of major sports like baseball and football (and to a lesser degree, basketball) is well known to many teenage fans of those sports. Many young baseball fans, for instance, could name things about some of the greatest teams and players in MLB past simply because they are mentioned on TV so constantly as modern teams and players approach certain records or milestones.

These kinds of modern reminders of "older" trash knowledge don't occur nearly as much with music, movies, or TV from 20+ years ago, making them probably way less accessible.

I don't agree with this. If you are interested enough in a topic then it is natural to learn more about it. And even if you don't like 80's movies or music enough to learn about them, there are still plenty of news references. If you've seen Pirates of the Caribbean you probably know Keith Richards. I saw a CNN special a few weeks ago on Alfred Hitchcock. The "modern reminders" are just as prevalent if you trade out your HD Sports Package for a Netflix account and satellite radio.

[Sulawesi Myzomela]

If someone only listens to/knows about music and movies made since they were born, it just means they don't know a lot about those subjects. If some high school quizbowl players have huge gaps in their pop culture knowledge, they should learn more about it instead of demanding that pop culture questions (which as a whole are well converted) be changed to fit their particular tastes.

[The Predictable Consequences]

If someone only listens to/knows about music and movies made since they were born, it just means they don't know a lot about those subjects. If some high school quizbowl players have huge gaps in their pop culture knowledge, they should learn more about it instead of demanding that pop culture questions (which as a whole are well converted) be changed to fit their particular tastes.

Same thing goes for question writers too though. One of the things that annoys me most about questions (not trying to hijack the thread with "Chip is bad" posts) is that an extremely high percentage of trash is about stuff relevant to people of the question writers' ages, but high schoolers have no idea about. I'm not accusing NAQT writers of being like Chip writers, but there shouldn't be a "I lived through this, so it's more important" bias. Accessibility and overall importance (hopefully together) would hopefully be the primary concerns. The second bonus tends towards this to me, as the Jessica Lange and Geena Davis clues aren't very answerable without list knowledge of Oscar winners.

[Mr. Scogan]

Disclaimer: I'm not speaking or claiming to be the voice of reason on this subject, just adding my $.02.

Personally, I don't think the first of the three bonuses listed here (the Drummers one) would be a 30-or-0 situation, then again I may be biased because I listen to an 80's station on the way to school, however I think the Rolling Stones aren't too difficult considering we still hear Mick Jagger references in today's music, they're still touring (IIRC), they're still in the news, not to mention they're in the Rock and Roll HOF. Phil Collins, the same thing I think can be said except it was probably equally as hard as the Def Leppard one. "In The Air Tonight" is popular enough on an 80's station, and there are numerous pop culture events that feature the song/make mention of it (Live 8, the Cadbury Egg/Gorilla and The Hangover, unless the team with the bonus said "Mike Tyson" >_>), and Phil Collins is mentioned numerous times on South Park, for whatever it is worth (thats not really the point, but he by no means is an obscure artist). If you live(d) under a rock, never saw/hear the aforementioned references, and never heard Genesis before, then your kinda up the creek on that one. (I think it'd be a safe bet that a decent percentage of American high schoolers/quiz bowlers couldn't tell you the name of the other lead singer of Genesis before Collins, so its whatever). The Def Leppard one, its not surprising that this wasn't highly converted if it wasn't.

The other two, I can't really judge. They might fall more into the 30-or-0 category (with the exception of the Dustin Hoffman and Scarface parts).

Also, what was up with the Marvin Gaye bonus? That was probably the hardest trash bonus at the HSNCT.

[The Predictable Consequences]

Disclaimer: I'm not speaking or claiming to be the voice of reason on this subject, just adding my $.02.

Personally, I don't think the first of the three bonuses listed here (the Drummers one) would be a 30-or-0 situation, then again I may be biased because I listen to an 80's station on the way to school, however I think the Rolling Stones aren't too difficult considering we still hear Mick Jagger references in today's music, they're still touring (IIRC), they're still in the news, not to mention they're in the Rock and Roll HOF. Phil Collins, the same thing I think can be said except it was probably equally as hard as the Def Leppard one. "In The Air Tonight" is popular enough on an 80's station, and there are numerous pop culture events that feature the song/make mention of it (Live 8, the Cadbury Egg/Gorilla and The Hangover, unless the team with the bonus said "Mike Tyson" >_>), and Phil Collins is mentioned numerous times on South Park, for whatever it is worth (thats not really the point, but he by no means is an obscure artist). If you live(d) under a rock, never saw/hear the aforementioned references, and never heard Genesis before, then your kinda up the creek on that one. (I think it'd be a safe bet that a decent percentage of American high schoolers/quiz bowlers couldn't tell you the name of the other lead singer of Genesis before Collins, so its whatever). The Def Leppard one, its not surprising that this wasn't highly converted if it wasn't.

The other two, I can't really judge. They might fall more into the 30-or-0 category (with the exception of the Dustin Hoffman and Scarface parts).

Also, what was up with the Marvin Gaye bonus? That was probably the hardest trash bonus at the HSNCT.

I thought the drummer bonus was well-done. A bare minimum of knowledge gets you the 10, some deeper (but not excessively deep ) knowledge for 20, and very good knowledge of classic rock for 30.

I'd like to see the Gaye bonus; I'm a big fan of his, but that seems a little hard for even the average HSNCT-er.

[Mr. Scogan]

Disclaimer: I'm not speaking or claiming to be the voice of reason on this subject, just adding my $.02.

Personally, I don't think the first of the three bonuses listed here (the Drummers one) would be a 30-or-0 situation, then again I may be biased because I listen to an 80's station on the way to school, however I think the Rolling Stones aren't too difficult considering we still hear Mick Jagger references in today's music, they're still touring (IIRC), they're still in the news, not to mention they're in the Rock and Roll HOF. Phil Collins, the same thing I think can be said except it was probably equally as hard as the Def Leppard one. "In The Air Tonight" is popular enough on an 80's station, and there are numerous pop culture events that feature the song/make mention of it (Live 8, the Cadbury Egg/Gorilla and The Hangover, unless the team with the bonus said "Mike Tyson" >_>), and Phil Collins is mentioned numerous times on South Park, for whatever it is worth (thats not really the point, but he by no means is an obscure artist). If you live(d) under a rock, never saw/hear the aforementioned references, and never heard Genesis before, then your kinda up the creek on that one. (I think it'd be a safe bet that a decent percentage of American high schoolers/quiz bowlers couldn't tell you the name of the other lead singer of Genesis before Collins, so its whatever). The Def Leppard one, its not surprising that this wasn't highly converted if it wasn't.

The other two, I can't really judge. They might fall more into the 30-or-0 category (with the exception of the Dustin Hoffman and Scarface parts).

Also, what was up with the Marvin Gaye bonus? That was probably the hardest trash bonus at the HSNCT.

I thought the drummer bonus was well-done. A bare minimum of knowledge gets you the 10, some deeper (but not excessively deep ) knowledge for 20, and very good knowledge of classic rock for 30.

I'd like to see the Gaye bonus; I'm a big fan of his, but that seems a little hard for even the average HSNCT-er.

Oh yeah, I thought it was well-done too (I sat in on a match the round it was heard because we were slated to play in the room after that round, so I watched and I thought to myself the answers and 30'd it, but I listen to a boat load of 80's music).

The Gaye Bonus was in the finals rounds at the HSNCT, and I remember LASA zeroing it. I don't recall the first part of the bonus (It might have been Marvin Gaye) but I remember the second part was "Gaye was killed by this family member" Answer: His Father and the last answer to that bonus was "Let's Get it On". I think if you never even heard of Marvin Gaye, you were screwed. I remember watching the VH1 "Most tragic events in Music" thing and his death was one of the higher ranked things (above the most recent Woodstock).

[Andrew's a Freshman]

The Gaye Bonus was in the finals rounds at the HSNCT, and I remember LASA zeroing it. I don't recall the first part of the bonus (It might have been Marvin Gaye) but I remember the second part was "Gaye was killed by this family member" Answer: His Father and the last answer to that bonus was "Let's Get it On". I think if you never even heard of Marvin Gaye, you were screwed. I remember watching the VH1 "Most tragic events in Music" thing and his death was one of the higher ranked things (above the most recent Woodstock).

I think Marvin Gaye and Let's Get It On also falls under the realm of old pop culture that is still often referenced today. I haven't seen the question, though, so I'm just going based on the topics.

[bt_green_warbler]

For 10 points each--answer the following about Marvin Gaye:

A. Gaye sang the hit duets "Ain't No Mountain High Enough" and "Ain't Nothing Like the Real Thing" with this singer.

answer: Tammi _Terrell_ (or Thomasina (Winifred) _Montgomery_)

B. Gaye was shot and killed in 1984 by this relation of his.

answer: Marvin _Gaye Sr._ (accept his _father_ or obvious equivalents; do not accept Marvin Gaye Jr. or "himself")

C. One of Gaye's number one songs, this song includes the lines "if the spirit moves you, let me groove you" and "we're all sensitive people with so much to give."

answer: _Let's Get It On_

[The Predictable Consequences]

For 10 points each--answer the following about Marvin Gaye:

A. Gaye sang the hit duets "Ain't No Mountain High Enough" and "Ain't Nothing Like the Real Thing" with this singer.

answer: Tammi _Terrell_ (or Thomasina (Winifred) _Montgomery_)

B. Gaye was shot and killed in 1984 by this relation of his.

answer: Marvin _Gaye Sr._ (accept his _father_ or obvious equivalents; do not accept Marvin Gaye Jr. or "himself")

C. One of Gaye's number one songs, this song includes the lines "if the spirit moves you, let me groove you" and "we're all sensitive people with so much to give."

answer: _Let's Get It On_

Yeah, that's not easy. Maybe changing the "Let's Get It On" part to asking about What's Going On would make it easier, but as it is, I can't see a lot of teams getting more than 10, if that.

[Sulawesi Myzomela]

For 10 points each--answer the following about Marvin Gaye:

A. Gaye sang the hit duets "Ain't No Mountain High Enough" and "Ain't Nothing Like the Real Thing" with this singer.

answer: Tammi _Terrell_ (or Thomasina (Winifred) _Montgomery_)

B. Gaye was shot and killed in 1984 by this relation of his.

answer: Marvin _Gaye Sr._ (accept his _father_ or obvious equivalents; do not accept Marvin Gaye Jr. or "himself")

C. One of Gaye's number one songs, this song includes the lines "if the spirit moves you, let me groove you" and "we're all sensitive people with so much to give."

answer: _Let's Get It On_

Yeah, that's not easy. Maybe changing the "Let's Get It On" part to asking about What's Going On would make it easier, but as it is, I can't see a lot of teams getting more than 10, if that.

"Let's Get It On" was a slightly bigger hit than "What's Going On" and it seems* like it still recieves more radio airplay today.

*I'm basing this off how often I hear it on the radio, I very well could be wrong on that when taking in to account a better and larger sample size.

[The Predictable Consequences]

For 10 points each--answer the following about Marvin Gaye:

A. Gaye sang the hit duets "Ain't No Mountain High Enough" and "Ain't Nothing Like the Real Thing" with this singer.

answer: Tammi _Terrell_ (or Thomasina (Winifred) _Montgomery_)

B. Gaye was shot and killed in 1984 by this relation of his.

answer: Marvin _Gaye Sr._ (accept his _father_ or obvious equivalents; do not accept Marvin Gaye Jr. or "himself")

C. One of Gaye's number one songs, this song includes the lines "if the spirit moves you, let me groove you" and "we're all sensitive people with so much to give."

answer: _Let's Get It On_

Yeah, that's not easy. Maybe changing the "Let's Get It On" part to asking about What's Going On would make it easier, but as it is, I can't see a lot of teams getting more than 10, if that.

"Let's Get It On" was a slightly bigger hit than "What's Going On" and it seems* like it still recieves more radio airplay today.

*I'm basing this off how often I hear it on the radio, I very well could be wrong on that when taking in to account a better and larger sample size.

I was referring to the album What's Going On actually. I believe it's #6 on Rolling Stone's top 500 albums of all time, and is (in the scheme of things) more influential and important of an album. Someone with a strong interest in rock/soul/Motown would have to know What's Going On, whereas knowing a couple lines of "Let's Get It On" is less relevant and does not necessarily reward interest in the topic.

[ether a go-go]

That bonus is hard/medium/medium, and the hard part is too hard. (For people like me who can remember the 70s, it would be hard/easy/easy.) If you're going to write a Marvin Gaye bonus for people born after 1984, then I'm pretty sure that one of the parts should either be Marvin Gaye or Motown. I don't think there's much of a difference between asking for What's Going On or Let's Get It On.

[Horned Screamer]

Look, that bonus is a bit too hard for high school, but just because some of you guys happen to have imperfect knowledge of Marvin Gaye doesn't mean he's some kind of singer you'd only really be familiar with if you were alive when he was or happen to REALLY like old R&B. He's a giant in the industry and you absolutely should be able to dedicate a whole bonus to him. People of all ages and tastes still know his music cold whether or not you do.

And yeah, you guys don't know what you're talking about when it comes to comparing the relative fame of individual songs he sang. "What's Going On" is hugely important because of its concept and status as a protest record and just because it's so good, but just because "Let's Get It On" doesn't have the same sort of highly elevated critical standing (although it's still pretty high), it's way more likely you'll be hearing "Let's Get It On" or any of a very large number of other Marvin Gaye songs that aren't on "What's Going On" just on the radio, or on a Marvin Gaye greatest hits record, or in movies and TV that reference the tracks. That's the whole point of Marvin Gaye, he did a TON of wildly popular songs that have stuck around, cherrypicking the most critically acclaimed album (which isn't even necessarily his most popular) to argue that songs on other albums aren't askable is a non-starter.

[Horned Screamer]

Like, seriously, I'm floored at how you guys are all acting about Marvin Gaye, it's not like he's some other Motown-era singer like Bill Withers who was big back then and had a couple songs you've probably heard in movies once. He's a phenomenally important and phenomenally enduring singer, and you guys not knowing enough about him is entirely your problem, not the problem of the NAQT for asking about him.

[Cheynem]

I would agree with Charlie in that Marvin Gaye is a very well known, important, and influential singer. I would have probably made one of the first two parts Marvin Gaye (Terrell in particular seems a bit excessive).

I also would completely disagree with the assertion that we should not write questions on topics which teenagers were not alive for. If you are interested in sports, you will follow sports history, as Coach Chrz notes. I've read a number of excellent sports history books. But similarly, if you like film, you will watch films that did not come out in your lifetime. If you like TV, you will watch older TV programs which are on in syndication, DVD, and frequently available online. If you like music, you will listen to something beyond the Top 40 of today. Furthermore, I think it's cool to reward people who have a deeper interest in beyond what's on the tube now or in movie theaters now or on the radio now. If you watched, say, Touch of Evil or read about Super Bowl III or have listened to Johnny Cash or whatever and can retain information about that, that's cool. And it should be rewarded just as much as someone who watched The Hangover and saw the most recent World Series or listen to Lady Gaga.

This is not me saying "OMG LET'S TOSS UP MY MOTHER THE CAR AND MEET ME IN ST. LOUIS!!!" We must take care in that topics are accessible for the appropriate audience and level. But as a game which rewards learning and intellectual curiosity, it would be remiss to not reward people who have an interest in going beyond the present in learning about pop culture (assuming, of course, we want to reward popular culture knowledge at all).

[Transparent Pudding]

I know many quizbowl players who would do significantly better on a music bonus about pre-birth music than present day music, me included.

[The Predictable Consequences]

Look, that bonus is a bit too hard for high school, but just because some of you guys happen to have imperfect knowledge of Marvin Gaye doesn't mean he's some kind of singer you'd only really be familiar with if you were alive when he was or happen to REALLY like old R&B. He's a giant in the industry and you absolutely should be able to dedicate a whole bonus to him. People of all ages and tastes still know his music cold whether or not you do.

And yeah, you guys don't know what you're talking about when it comes to comparing the relative fame of individual songs he sang. "What's Going On" is hugely important because of its concept and status as a protest record and just because it's so good, but just because "Let's Get It On" doesn't have the same sort of highly elevated critical standing (although it's still pretty high), it's way more likely you'll be hearing "Let's Get It On" or any of a very large number of other Marvin Gaye songs that aren't on "What's Going On" just on the radio, or on a Marvin Gaye greatest hits record, or in movies and TV that reference the tracks. That's the whole point of Marvin Gaye, he did a TON of wildly popular songs that have stuck around, cherrypicking the most critically acclaimed album (which isn't even necessarily his most popular) to argue that songs on other albums aren't askable is a non-starter.

I know Marvin Gaye, I just don't know if other quiz bowlers do. I was suggesting What's Going On because it might be more accessible to people with more of a general knowledge of music due to its critical acclaim and status. It still isn't easy, however--probably better as the middle part of a Marvin Gaye/What's Going On/Tammi Terrell bonus.

I also was in no way advocating against Gaye as a bonus idea. He's a titanic figure both in the industry and in the realm of popular music, and if that bonus sparked an interest in him from any of the players, that's great. I still think it was a little hard, however.

[Horned Screamer]

Other people basically are arguing like he's not a person you should write a whole bonus about though. Your argument about Let's Get It On is still not right though.

[Broad-tailed Grassbird]

Look, that bonus is a bit too hard for high school, but just because some of you guys happen to have imperfect knowledge of Marvin Gaye doesn't mean he's some kind of singer you'd only really be familiar with if you were alive when he was or happen to REALLY like old R&B. He's a giant in the industry and you absolutely should be able to dedicate a whole bonus to him. People of all ages and tastes still know his music cold whether or not you do.

And yeah, you guys don't know what you're talking about when it comes to comparing the relative fame of individual songs he sang. "What's Going On" is hugely important because of its concept and status as a protest record and just because it's so good, but just because "Let's Get It On" doesn't have the same sort of highly elevated critical standing (although it's still pretty high), it's way more likely you'll be hearing "Let's Get It On" or any of a very large number of other Marvin Gaye songs that aren't on "What's Going On" just on the radio, or on a Marvin Gaye greatest hits record, or in movies and TV that reference the tracks. That's the whole point of Marvin Gaye, he did a TON of wildly popular songs that have stuck around, cherrypicking the most critically acclaimed album (which isn't even necessarily his most popular) to argue that songs on other albums aren't askable is a non-starter.

I know Marvin Gaye, I just don't know if other quiz bowlers do. I was suggesting What's Going On because it might be more accessible to people with more of a general knowledge of music due to its critical acclaim and status. It still isn't easy, however--probably better as the middle part of a Marvin Gaye/What's Going On/Tammi Terrell bonus.

I also was in no way advocating against Gaye as a bonus idea. He's a titanic figure both in the industry and in the realm of popular music, and if that bonus sparked an interest in him from any of the players, that's great. I still think it was a little hard, however.

Wiki tells me that you should know who Marvin Gaye is. Seven of his albums reached #1 on the US R&B charts, 3 #1's on the Hot 100, and too many top 10 hits to count. Yeah, for high schoolers the questions do need to be made at a proper level. But if you don't know who Marvin Gaye is, that is just a hole in your knowledge (just like most of literature is a gigantic hole in mine).

[theMoMA]

Our answer lines should be dictated by what people know, not what we think people should know. Marvin Gaye is pretty important. A lot of things are pretty important. But "importance" is the wrong inquiry here because the function of questions is not to chide players who don't know so-called important things; it's to test the knowledge that we think the players have and is worth having. I don't particularly feel like conducting a full do-people-know-this analysis of that particular Marvin Gaye bonus (though I remember thinking that it was very hard, especially for the younger set, when I heard it at HSNCT).

[Horned Screamer]

That doesn't change that there has to be a minimum baseline before we cut it off and say "alright, this topic is known by enough people that we can ask about it and if some rooms don't know it, then that's just what comes with the territory of playing a game where you have to know things." There are all kinds of academic topics that come up that aren't known by a large percentage of quizbowlers, but if we can't ask about things like Candide (which I bet is something there are fewer players who have read than there are players who have heard multiple Marvin Gaye songs), then we can't have the game. If you throw a question about Marvin Gaye into a high school nationals set and there are people who are there who don't know it, that's too bad because otherwise you can't ask about a whole bunch of other trash things that you would need to fill the set.

[Cheynem]

Andrew is right in that we have to be realistic in what we expect people to know (which is why, for instance, I would not ask in HSNCT a question about super-important film director Vittorio De Sica, for instance). However, we must also recognize there are things in which we can reasonably expect intellectually curious players to know. Marvin Gaye, Orson Welles, Mickey Mantle, M*A*S*H are all things which youngsters (heck, even myself) could not have experienced personally but that which we would expect people with reasonable interest in music, film, sports, and television to have knowledge.

[The Quest for the Historical Mukherjesus]

M*A*S*H

More please.

[Black-throated Antshrike]

M*A*S*H

More please.

Agreed!!!!!

[bmcke]

Looking at the power stats that got posted in the other thread, a lot of the trash questions were the easiest of the tournament. If "older" trash is a way to keep that stuff in check or line it up closer to rewarding, like, intellectual curiosity, then I am pretty okay with that. Almost as okay as I am with the great Marvin Gaye song, "When a Man Loves a Woman."

blah blah blah everyone loves a trash discussion

[Grams's Go-Go Boots]

That was Percy Sledge that did "When a Man Loves a Woman" (originally, at least).

[Charles Martel]

Looking at the power stats that got posted in the other thread, a lot of the trash questions were the easiest of the tournament. If "older" trash is a way to keep that stuff in check or line it up closer to rewarding, like, intellectual curiosity, then I am pretty okay with that. Almost as okay as I am with the great Marvin Gaye song, "When a Man Loves a Woman."

blah blah blah everyone loves a trash discussion

So, you're basically saying that zeroes are okay because they are a way of balancing out thirties?

[bmcke]

If I was saying that, then I was wrong. Almost as wrong as the great Marvin Gaye song, "Party Rock Anthem."

[Grams's Go-Go Boots]

Party Rock Anthem was actually just Tammi Terrell on her own.

[Mr. Scogan]

Looking at the power stats that got posted in the other thread, a lot of the trash questions were the easiest of the tournament. If "older" trash is a way to keep that stuff in check or line it up closer to rewarding, like, intellectual curiosity, then I am pretty okay with that. Almost as okay as I am with the great Marvin Gaye song, "When a Man Loves a Woman."

blah blah blah everyone loves a trash discussion

So, you're basically saying that zeroes are okay because they are a way of balancing out thirties?

I don't think he's saying that at all, because it sounds like he's referencing to the trash tossups, not the bonuses. Really, for whatever its worth, the trash questions varied from time frames, with Space Oddity (circa 1969), to Black and Yellow (circa 2010) and places in between (Jeremy, 1992, and even Ferris Buehler's Day Off (back when the USSR still existed) Personally, I agree with his school of thought but to be a little more explicit, if you get Space Oddity within power, then good for you, more power to you (no pun intended). If not, or if you didn't get it at all, not the end of the world (unless it consequentially makes a difference), maybe you should stop listening to Justin Bieber and pick up some David Bowie (real dance music). On a side related note, I remembered after the round that had the Jeremy question, while we were waiting outside the room where our next match was, the team we were supposed to play was with us and was complaining about the question with comments like "who cares about Pearl Jam", which I then proceeded to tell them "Pearl Jam isn't obscure, the album Ten, which Jeremy can be found, has sold almost 10 million copies, obviously you don't, but 10 million people do, so stop complaining", which in hindsight wasn't the most diplomatic thing to do, but the other team exhibited a pristine example of "I don't listen to that old stuff, don't ask me about it, brah" ignorance.

Another thought; I'm not opposed at all to "older trash", because trash shouldn't be restricted to post-2000, where only top 40 hits get tossed up, because by doing so a.) it would reduce the canon (I don't think trash has a canon, but it could reduce the number of questions asked) and b.) it sends the message of "You don't listen to pop music? Tough". Plus, it can affect the sports questions because even if its 3 or 4 lines (it'd be a lot worse if it was 7 lines) of a question, right now you only have 11 years of things to ask if the standard was all 2000 and after, and you have to find unambiguous clues, especially pertaining to teams.

EDIT: I guess a better way of explaining what I'm trying to get at is this; the players that have top 25 from all genres and all time frames (kinda like me, from Al Green to Wiz Khalifa), are probably going to do better at these "high level" trash questions. But really, I'm starting to lose sight of why there's even trash at the HSNCT (and I'd rather not have it).

Also, whats a Party Rock Anthem?

[Black-throated Antshrike]

Looking at the power stats that got posted in the other thread, a lot of the trash questions were the easiest of the tournament. If "older" trash is a way to keep that stuff in check or line it up closer to rewarding, like, intellectual curiosity, then I am pretty okay with that. Almost as okay as I am with the great Marvin Gaye song, "When a Man Loves a Woman."

blah blah blah everyone loves a trash discussion

So, you're basically saying that zeroes are okay because they are a way of balancing out thirties?

I don't think he's saying that at all, because it sounds like he's referencing to the trash tossups, not the bonuses. Really, for whatever its worth, the trash questions varied from time frames, with Space Oddity (circa 1969), to Black and Yellow (circa 2010) and places in between (Jeremy, 1992, and even Ferris Buehler's Day Off (back when the USSR still existed) Personally, I agree with his school of thought but to be a little more explicit, if you get Space Oddity within power, then good for you, more power to you (no pun intended). If not, or if you didn't get it at all, not the end of the world (unless it consequentially makes a difference), maybe you should stop listening to Justin Bieber and pick up some David Bowie (real dance music). On a side related note, I remembered after the round that had the Jeremy question, while we were waiting outside the room where our next match was, the team we were supposed to play was with us and was complaining about the question with comments like "who cares about Pearl Jam", which I then proceeded to tell them "Pearl Jam isn't obscure, the album Ten, which Jeremy can be found, has sold almost 10 million copies, obviously you don't, but 10 million people do, so stop complaining", which in hindsight wasn't the most diplomatic thing to do, but the other team exhibited a pristine example of "I don't listen to that old stuff, don't ask me about it, brah" ignorance.

Another thought; I'm not opposed at all to "older trash", because trash shouldn't be restricted to post-2000, where only top 40 hits get tossed up, because by doing so a.) it would reduce the canon (I don't think trash has a canon, but it could reduce the number of questions asked) and b.) it sends the message of "You don't listen to pop music? Tough". Plus, it can affect the sports questions because even if its 3 or 4 lines (it'd be a lot worse if it was 7 lines) of a question, right now you only have 11 years of things to ask if the standard was all 2000 and after, and you have to find unambiguous clues, especially pertaining to teams.

EDIT: I guess a better way of explaining what I'm trying to get at is this; the players that have top 25 from all genres and all time frames (kinda like me, from Al Green to Wiz Khalifa), are probably going to do better at these "high level" trash questions. But really, I'm starting to lose sight of why there's even trash at the HSNCT (and I'd rather not have it).

Also, whats a Party Rock Anthem?

LMFAO's new single.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ6zr6kC ... re=related

[Sulawesi Myzomela]

Marvin Gaye, Pearl Jam, and whole bunch of other acts from before current HS Quizbolwers entered high school are still more popular (AMONG HIGH SCHOOLERS!) than half the newer stuff that comes up in quizbowl.

If we eliminate "old" trash from the game, we might as well eliminate it all.

[Mr. Scogan]

Looking at the power stats that got posted in the other thread, a lot of the trash questions were the easiest of the tournament. If "older" trash is a way to keep that stuff in check or line it up closer to rewarding, like, intellectual curiosity, then I am pretty okay with that. Almost as okay as I am with the great Marvin Gaye song, "When a Man Loves a Woman."

blah blah blah everyone loves a trash discussion

So, you're basically saying that zeroes are okay because they are a way of balancing out thirties?

I don't think he's saying that at all, because it sounds like he's referencing to the trash tossups, not the bonuses. Really, for whatever its worth, the trash questions varied from time frames, with Space Oddity (circa 1969), to Black and Yellow (circa 2010) and places in between (Jeremy, 1992, and even Ferris Buehler's Day Off (back when the USSR still existed) Personally, I agree with his school of thought but to be a little more explicit, if you get Space Oddity within power, then good for you, more power to you (no pun intended). If not, or if you didn't get it at all, not the end of the world (unless it consequentially makes a difference), maybe you should stop listening to Justin Bieber and pick up some David Bowie (real dance music). On a side related note, I remembered after the round that had the Jeremy question, while we were waiting outside the room where our next match was, the team we were supposed to play was with us and was complaining about the question with comments like "who cares about Pearl Jam", which I then proceeded to tell them "Pearl Jam isn't obscure, the album Ten, which Jeremy can be found, has sold almost 10 million copies, obviously you don't, but 10 million people do, so stop complaining", which in hindsight wasn't the most diplomatic thing to do, but the other team exhibited a pristine example of "I don't listen to that old stuff, don't ask me about it, brah" ignorance.

Another thought; I'm not opposed at all to "older trash", because trash shouldn't be restricted to post-2000, where only top 40 hits get tossed up, because by doing so a.) it would reduce the canon (I don't think trash has a canon, but it could reduce the number of questions asked) and b.) it sends the message of "You don't listen to pop music? Tough". Plus, it can affect the sports questions because even if its 3 or 4 lines (it'd be a lot worse if it was 7 lines) of a question, right now you only have 11 years of things to ask if the standard was all 2000 and after, and you have to find unambiguous clues, especially pertaining to teams.

EDIT: I guess a better way of explaining what I'm trying to get at is this; the players that have top 25 from all genres and all time frames (kinda like me, from Al Green to Wiz Khalifa), are probably going to do better at these "high level" trash questions. But really, I'm starting to lose sight of why there's even trash at the HSNCT (and I'd rather not have it).

Also, whats a Party Rock Anthem?

LMFAO's new single.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ6zr6kC ... re=related

Poor sarcasm on my part...

[Habitat_Against_Humanity]

If we eliminate "old" trash from the game, we might as well eliminate it all.

Dear NAQT, please call his bluff and do this so these inane trash threads will end.

[Grams's Go-Go Boots]

SPOILERS: 0/0 distribution of everything this coming year.

[The Ununtiable Twine]

If we eliminate "old" trash from the game, we might as well eliminate it all.

Dear NAQT, please call his bluff and do this so these inane trash threads will end.

I believe he may be referring to the fact that the majority of the people that are currently popular in the entertainment industry are a bunch of talentless buffoons. There were a lot of people that produced quality material back in the day and the quality has just diminished over time. If you get rid of the quality stuff, then yes, eliminate the crap too. Actually, just eliminate the crap - that might be a better idea. The problem is that a good percentage of quizbowlers can't seem to differentiate between the good stuff and the crap because they don't care at any rate, so they treat it like it's all the same, hence we have some of these borderline absurd arguments about trash. Oh, let's just ignore some of the greatest people in the history of the entertainment industry because they are old. Sure, the good that'll do.

[The Predictable Consequences]

SPOILERS: 0/0 distribution of everything this coming year.

Each game will be decided by a machine that bases win probability on the results of Fred's season rankings.

[Sulawesi Myzomela]

If we eliminate "old" trash from the game, we might as well eliminate it all.

Dear NAQT, please call his bluff and do this so these inane trash threads will end.

I believe he may be referring to the fact that the majority of the people that are currently popular in the entertainment industry are a bunch of talentless buffoons. There were a lot of people that produced quality material back in the day and the quality has just diminished over time. If you get rid of the quality stuff, then yes, eliminate the crap too. Actually, just eliminate the crap - that might be a better idea. The problem is that a good percentage of quizbowlers can't seem to differentiate between the good stuff and the crap because they don't care at any rate, so they treat it like it's all the same, hence we have some of these borderline absurd arguments about trash. Oh, let's just ignore some of the greatest people in the history of the entertainment industry because they are old. Sure, the good that'll do.

To be fair, I think there have always been talentless buffoons littering the entertainment industry. Pat Boone was awfully popular "back in the day." The basic idea of eliminating the crap (from any time period) is a good one, although I really don't have a problem with the modern stuff, there's plenty of good entertainment out there today just like there always has been.

EDIT: Contrary to my insane ramblings when I first appeared on this board a couple years ago, I really do think that a slight reduction in the size of the Pop Culture distribution would go a long way towards eliminating terrible topics and reducing the amount of horrible ideas about trash like "stop asking old stuff." I do think it has a place in the distribution (especially in a 24/24 packet) but it's unimportant enough that I'd rather do without it than have a terrible version of it.

[Mr. Scogan]

I don't think it would have been a bad idea for the Marvin Gaye bonus to instead be a 70's/80's pop/R&B bonus on artists/groups (just like the 80's drummer bonus). An example (Disclaimer: Don't know if Andy Gibb and George Michael are really 70's/80's pop/R&B) would be Marvin Gaye/Andy Gibb/George Michael, and I think it would probably be like Easy/Hard/Medium. Thoughts?

[Cheynem]

I don't understand why that is so much better than an (easier) bonus on Marvin Gaye. Your proposed bonus is arguably harder, to be honest, depending on the clues used.

[Mr. Scogan]

I don't understand why that is so much better than an (easier) bonus on Marvin Gaye. Your proposed bonus is arguably harder, to be honest, depending on the clues used.

Having a Marvin Gaye bonus with answer lines of Tami Terrell, his father and "Let's Get It On" would require more than minimal knowledge about Marvin Gaye.

Something like this would require minimal knowledge (perhaps)

For 10 points each - identify the following pop and soul artists of the 70's and 80's:

A. This artist of "What's Going On" and "Let's Get It On" was notably assailed by his father one day before his 45th birthday.
answer: Marvin _Gaye_

B. This British pop artist of "Shadow Dancing" and "I Just Want To Be Your Everything" was the youngest sibling of the brothers who went on to form The Bee Gees.
answer: Andy _Gibb_

C. This former lead singer of WHAM!, whose 1987 album Faith won the Grammy Award for "Album of the Year" released the 1984 hit "Careless Whisper".
answer: George _Michael_

[Cheynem]

I said an EASIER Marvin Gaye bonus. I agree that the bonus as it stands is a bit too hard, but asking for like Gaye/Let's Get It On/Terrell or whatever would be perfectly acceptable. Your bonus is fine (could use a harder hard part if your'e just taking Gibb for Andy Gibb), but it's a different bonus. There's nothing inherently wrong with the idea of a whole bonus on Marvin Gaye.

[Mr. Scogan]

I said an EASIER Marvin Gaye bonus. I agree that the bonus as it stands is a bit too hard, but asking for like Gaye/Let's Get It On/Terrell or whatever would be perfectly acceptable. Your bonus is fine (could use a harder hard part if your'e just taking Gibb for Andy Gibb), but it's a different bonus. There's nothing inherently wrong with the idea of a whole bonus on Marvin Gaye.

I see where your coming from now.

Having Marvin Gaye as an answer for a bonus entirely about Marvin Gaye I think would be a good idea, because then it that would require minimal knowledge to at least get 10 points. I think with trash, it should require at least minimal knowledge to at least get 10 (or 1/3 of the bonus, i.e. the easy part) if it asks for say, the artist first in a bonus that goes easy/medium/hard in the order of artist/album/song (could go either way with the album and song). Knowing who Marvin Gaye is should at least be somewhat rewarding, (back to minimal knowledge), as he is/was an important figure of Motown and all that "groovy" music. If you happen to be a Marvin Gaye buff who plays on LASA or whatever, then probably any Marvin Gaye centered bonus would be right up your alley. But, how many Marvin Gaye buffs are there in high school, let alone at a Nationals competition? I'm not opposed to a Marvin Gaye bonus, but you shouldn't have to be too familiar with his songs/who he recorded with, to get the "easy" part of a bonus on him if you know who he is, at least not a Nationals competition.

[Jesus vs. Dragons]

Am I the only person who feels they are capable of learning something from every question at a tournament? If there is a bonus part on Saul Bellow's fourth most famous book that I had never heard of (Ravelstein, perhaps), I would write it down and go look it up after the tournament. If I heard a bonus part on Tammi Terrell, I would write it down and go listen to some of her music. If you have never heard of Ravelstein or Tammi Terrell, you don't get points for it. These bonuses are from HSNCT, they're supposed to be relatively difficult. I would wager that the exact same bonus at DII ICT would have been perfectly acceptable, yet most participants in that are going to be <20 years old and could still be as young as a senior in high school. Using age as an argument against a question makes no sense and it seems to happen every time there is a discussion on trash.

As for the drummers bonus, that should be an automatic 20 for anyone with even an average knowledge of music. The Rolling Stones are the second-biggest musical act of all time, so that should be an automatic 10 right there. The Phil Collins bonus is also pretty easy, as "In the Air Tonight" is still played very frequently on the radio and has many conspiracy theories about its meaning, which offers another outlet by which one could learn about it. The Def Leppard bonus was pretty tough, but if you have ever even heard of Def Leppard you should know of "Pour Some Sugar On Me" and that their drummer only has one arm. Those bonuses could not have been made any easier given their answer lines.

Also, if you are given a prompt saying "answer these questions about Marvin Gaye" and don't know anything about Marvin Gaye, it should not make a difference that it is trash. If someone were to insert "answer these questions about Charles Babbage" and you knew nothing about Charles Babbage, should you receive points for it? Admittedly, you probably have come across "Analytical Engine" or "Ada Lovelace" at some point in high school, but can you really convince yourself that "Analytical Engine" is more famous than "Let's Get it On?" When it comes to trash discussion, the fact that quizbowl rewards you for what you know seems to be forgotten. Having an excellent knowledge of 80'a Arena Rock is nowhere near as useful as having an excellent knowledge of 19th century literature, and the distribution rewards the difference in importance justly.