Recommendation for a national tournament.
Recommendation for a national tournament.
Hello my team has just qualified for both HSNCT and NSC, and we are not sure which one we should go to. It would be a great help if someone who has been to either could shed a little light on each one's merits I.E. prestige, difficulty, question quality, and quality of tournament administration/planning.
Will Brandon
7th place MSNCT
Middlesex Middleschool 2013
Darien Highschool 2017
7th place MSNCT
Middlesex Middleschool 2013
Darien Highschool 2017
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- Rikku
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Re: Recommendation for a national tournament.
Assuming this thread doesn't get moved to New HS Teams, which it might, there are a couple criteria to look at.
Both are going to have really good questions and tournament planning barring some sort of debacle, don't worry about that. PACE is harder. PACE is also going to be closer to you. PACE pulls a smaller field that is generally seen as more elite. HSNCT has a larger field so if you want a larger swath of schools you should go there.
Both are going to have really good questions and tournament planning barring some sort of debacle, don't worry about that. PACE is harder. PACE is also going to be closer to you. PACE pulls a smaller field that is generally seen as more elite. HSNCT has a larger field so if you want a larger swath of schools you should go there.
Alston [Montgomery] Boyd
Bloomington High School '15
UChicago '19
UChicago Divinity '21
they
Bloomington High School '15
UChicago '19
UChicago Divinity '21
they
Re: Recommendation for a national tournament.
right now we are leaning towards HSNCT even though it will be a little more expensive.This Urn Is So Grecian wrote:Assuming this thread doesn't get moved to New HS Teams, which it might, there are a couple criteria to look at.
Both are going to have really good questions and tournament planning barring some sort of debacle, don't worry about that. PACE is harder. PACE is also going to be closer to you. PACE pulls a smaller field that is generally seen as more elite. HSNCT has a larger field so if you want a larger swath of schools you should go there.
Will Brandon
7th place MSNCT
Middlesex Middleschool 2013
Darien Highschool 2017
7th place MSNCT
Middlesex Middleschool 2013
Darien Highschool 2017
Re: Recommendation for a national tournament.
Quality of questions and tournament administration/planning is about equal for both tournaments.
It's debatable as to which one is actually more prestigious: the HSNCT is a larger tournament, with an arguably more "official" feel than the PACE NSC. Almost every team that goes to the NSC also goes to the HSNCT, so the HSNCT definitely has a wider presence. That being said, you could also argue that the PACE NSC is more elite than the HSNCT. As a whole, the competition at the NSC is tougher, since elite teams often see the NSC as a way to reaffirm/redeem their national ranking after the HSNCT. Less skilled teams don't usually bother to come. (Basically, the NSC has more of an "insider's club" sort of feel.)
Also keep in mind that the questions at the HSNCT and NSC are relatively different. The question distribution at the HSNCT includes a lot more geography and current events, while the distribution at the NSC includes a lot more fine arts (and basically other stuff that isn't geography and current events). The writing style of the questions also varies; have your team practice on a few sets from NSC versus a few sets from the HSNCT, and you'll notice the difference pretty quickly. This won't be a big deal at lower skill levels, but for more elite teams, it can make a big difference.
Personally, if your team has never been to either tournament before, I would recommend going to the HSNCT first.
It's debatable as to which one is actually more prestigious: the HSNCT is a larger tournament, with an arguably more "official" feel than the PACE NSC. Almost every team that goes to the NSC also goes to the HSNCT, so the HSNCT definitely has a wider presence. That being said, you could also argue that the PACE NSC is more elite than the HSNCT. As a whole, the competition at the NSC is tougher, since elite teams often see the NSC as a way to reaffirm/redeem their national ranking after the HSNCT. Less skilled teams don't usually bother to come. (Basically, the NSC has more of an "insider's club" sort of feel.)
Also keep in mind that the questions at the HSNCT and NSC are relatively different. The question distribution at the HSNCT includes a lot more geography and current events, while the distribution at the NSC includes a lot more fine arts (and basically other stuff that isn't geography and current events). The writing style of the questions also varies; have your team practice on a few sets from NSC versus a few sets from the HSNCT, and you'll notice the difference pretty quickly. This won't be a big deal at lower skill levels, but for more elite teams, it can make a big difference.
Personally, if your team has never been to either tournament before, I would recommend going to the HSNCT first.
Corry Wang
Arcadia High School 2013
Amherst College 2017
NAQT Writer and Subject Editor
Arcadia High School 2013
Amherst College 2017
NAQT Writer and Subject Editor
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Re: Recommendation for a national tournament.
Historically speaking, the questions at the PACE NSC are of about equal difficulty, if not slightly easier, than the ones at the HSNCT. However, the median team at NSC tends to be stronger than the median team at HSNCT, so the former will have stronger competition in the earlier rounds (but that's kind of what one would expect from a national tournament).This Urn Is So Grecian wrote:PACE is harder.
From a personal opinion, the HSNCT seems to give off more of a "prestigious tournament" experience, with its high field sizes, its location in a large hotel, and the ilk. However, the NSC tends to be be the better determiner of how good every team is (for the past several years, every single team is given a final ranking, something that the HSNCT does not come close to doing), as well as longer, (IMO) higher-quality questions. PACE is also hosting the 2014 NSC in a hotel this year, and from what I've heard over the grapevine, I doubt the difference in atmosphere will be that much different this time around.
I'd be slightly in favor of the PACE NSC, though you are not going to go wrong with either one.
Harry White
TJHSST '09, Virginia Tech '13
Owner of Tournament Database Search and Quizbowl Schedule Generator
Will run stats for food
TJHSST '09, Virginia Tech '13
Owner of Tournament Database Search and Quizbowl Schedule Generator
Will run stats for food
Re: Recommendation for a national tournament.
One thing I have to say I like more about HSNCT is the pace (no pun intended). You're always rushing around to get to your next game, and when you get there, the timing cuts out all the crap and you're focused only on the questions. Also, shorter questions make it harder to remember questions you didn't like for that day, instead of having to linger on them like you do at NSC.
I also appreciate the format of HSNCT. The card system makes it do that after a round or two, you're playing a team of equal skill, and every game counts, especially on the second day. At NSC, the round robin system makes the latter games feel a bit inconsequential if you're not in the top bracket, and that hour long wait around lunch is pretty mood killing.
That being said, if possible, go to both. The different experiences are worth it.
I also appreciate the format of HSNCT. The card system makes it do that after a round or two, you're playing a team of equal skill, and every game counts, especially on the second day. At NSC, the round robin system makes the latter games feel a bit inconsequential if you're not in the top bracket, and that hour long wait around lunch is pretty mood killing.
That being said, if possible, go to both. The different experiences are worth it.
Sean M.
HTHS '14
Cornell University '18
UCSB '23
The opinions presented in this user's posts have not been approved by HTHS Quizbowl Team. Viewer discretion is advised. - Patrick LeBlanc, Captain
HTHS '14
Cornell University '18
UCSB '23
The opinions presented in this user's posts have not been approved by HTHS Quizbowl Team. Viewer discretion is advised. - Patrick LeBlanc, Captain
Re: Recommendation for a national tournament.
FWIW, when I did aPPB calculations after the 2011 and 2012 seasons, the NSC came out to be one to two PPB easier than HSNCT, which is a significant difference.
Fred Morlan
University of Kentucky CoP, 2017
International Quiz Bowl Tournaments, CEO, co-owner
former PACE member, president, etc.
former hsqbrank manager, former NAQT writer & subject editor, former hsqb Administrator/Chief Administrator
University of Kentucky CoP, 2017
International Quiz Bowl Tournaments, CEO, co-owner
former PACE member, president, etc.
former hsqbrank manager, former NAQT writer & subject editor, former hsqb Administrator/Chief Administrator
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Re: Recommendation for a national tournament.
How much of a difference will this make in a game?question distribution at the HSNCT includes a lot more geography and current events
Michael Borecki
Middlesex Middle '13,
Darien (co-captain) '17,
Bowdoin College (club president) '21
Middlesex Middle '13,
Darien (co-captain) '17,
Bowdoin College (club president) '21
Re: Recommendation for a national tournament.
Of the 13 games that my team played at HSNCT this year, 4 of them essentially came down to a single tossup. So yeah, those extra 2-3 geography and current events questions can make a difference.geolawyerman wrote:How much of a difference will this make in a game?question distribution at the HSNCT includes a lot more geography and current events
Of course, this is heavily dependent on the specific subject knowledge of your team.
Corry Wang
Arcadia High School 2013
Amherst College 2017
NAQT Writer and Subject Editor
Arcadia High School 2013
Amherst College 2017
NAQT Writer and Subject Editor
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Re: Recommendation for a national tournament.
I'm pretty sure that's something in the area of 120 or so points on the board (three tossups with three part bonuses). If you're not very proficient in those areas, more likely than not your opponent will have a leg up on you.geolawyerman wrote:How much of a difference will this make in a game?question distribution at the HSNCT includes a lot more geography and current events
Thomas Moore
Lancaster Fisher Catholic HS c/o 2014
Ohio Wesleyan University c/o 2018
Lancaster Fisher Catholic HS c/o 2014
Ohio Wesleyan University c/o 2018
- jonpin
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Re: Recommendation for a national tournament.
One thing to note, just based off of your signature, is that regardless of the difference between NSC and HSNCT, either is far FAR better than Questions Unlimited. NAQT and PACE are both organizations that run good national tournaments, and for many people the choice between them may come down to intangibles. This year, PACE is on Memorial Day weekend, allowing an extended trip/vacation should you choose. HSNCT is back in Chicago, which is a great place to visit. PACE has no negs and bigger powers, so if you are an aggressive team, it might be a better fit; it also has bounceback bonuses, so if you get a lot of tossups, you might not like that aspect (because it would let the other team back in the game).
Jon Pinyan
Coach, Bergen County Academies (NJ); former player for BCA (2000-03) and WUSTL (2003-07)
HSQB forum mod, PACE member
Stat director for: NSC '13-'15, '17; ACF '14, '17, '19; NHBB '13-'15; NASAT '11
"A [...] wizard who controls the weather" - Jerry Vinokurov
Coach, Bergen County Academies (NJ); former player for BCA (2000-03) and WUSTL (2003-07)
HSQB forum mod, PACE member
Stat director for: NSC '13-'15, '17; ACF '14, '17, '19; NHBB '13-'15; NASAT '11
"A [...] wizard who controls the weather" - Jerry Vinokurov
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Re: Recommendation for a national tournament.
So is dc! Go to Ben's chili bowl!jonpin wrote: HSNCT is back in Chicago, which is a great place to visit.
IKD
Yale 18
Oakland Mills 14
"I am the NAQT beast I worship."
Yale 18
Oakland Mills 14
"I am the NAQT beast I worship."
Re: Recommendation for a national tournament.
Are you doing this across the whole field or just the teams that went to both tournaments?Grams's Go-Go Boots wrote:FWIW, when I did aPPB calculations after the 2011 and 2012 seasons, the NSC came out to be one to two PPB easier than HSNCT, which is a significant difference.
John Gilbert
Coach, Howard High School Academic Team
Ellicott City, MD
"John Gilbert is a quiz bowl god" -- leftsaidfred
Coach, Howard High School Academic Team
Ellicott City, MD
"John Gilbert is a quiz bowl god" -- leftsaidfred
Re: Recommendation for a national tournament.
It's been almost two years now, but I think it was a comparison between teams that attended one or the other and played an IS set.
Fred Morlan
University of Kentucky CoP, 2017
International Quiz Bowl Tournaments, CEO, co-owner
former PACE member, president, etc.
former hsqbrank manager, former NAQT writer & subject editor, former hsqb Administrator/Chief Administrator
University of Kentucky CoP, 2017
International Quiz Bowl Tournaments, CEO, co-owner
former PACE member, president, etc.
former hsqbrank manager, former NAQT writer & subject editor, former hsqb Administrator/Chief Administrator
Re: Recommendation for a national tournament.
If that's the case, then NSC, with an allegedly more elite field, would be expected to have higher aPPB than HSNCT. If the data were from teams that attended both tournaments, I'd be much more convinced.
(I'm not complaining that you didn't do this, just pointing out that we may be making errors in the conclusions we're drawing.)
(I'm not complaining that you didn't do this, just pointing out that we may be making errors in the conclusions we're drawing.)
John Gilbert
Coach, Howard High School Academic Team
Ellicott City, MD
"John Gilbert is a quiz bowl god" -- leftsaidfred
Coach, Howard High School Academic Team
Ellicott City, MD
"John Gilbert is a quiz bowl god" -- leftsaidfred
Re: Recommendation for a national tournament.
No, I'm talking about the aPPB adjustment, which hypothetically shouldn't be that affected by the strength of the teams and showed that PACE was easier than NAQT. After this semester is over, I'd be happy to work on this some more as possible.
Fred Morlan
University of Kentucky CoP, 2017
International Quiz Bowl Tournaments, CEO, co-owner
former PACE member, president, etc.
former hsqbrank manager, former NAQT writer & subject editor, former hsqb Administrator/Chief Administrator
University of Kentucky CoP, 2017
International Quiz Bowl Tournaments, CEO, co-owner
former PACE member, president, etc.
former hsqbrank manager, former NAQT writer & subject editor, former hsqb Administrator/Chief Administrator