2018 Penn Bowl - Specific Question Discussion Thread

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2018 Penn Bowl - Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by mtebbe »

This thread is for discussing specific questions from Penn Bowl 2018. Any commentary regarding answer choice, difficulty, clarity, etc. is welcome.
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by a bird »

Here are a few specific things I found confusing:

The _scultpture_ TU was hard to buzz on because _scultupure_ is so such a large category. I imagine lots of players were trying to find more specific answers after recognizing some of the clues.

The _post-painterly abstraction_ bonus part clued Helen Frankenthaler and her work Mountains and Sea, which really pointed me in the wrong direction. I realize Frankenthaler is often talked about in the context of post-painterly abstraction, but at least in my classes* I've discussed it more in the context of abstract expressionism. In retrospect I should have focussed on the Greenberg clues about the exhibition, which made the answer more clear.
*(and at the National Gallery, where it hangs in a room with ab ex and color field works, not in what I'd call the post-painterly abstraction room, with Morris Louis et. al.)

I think the _NK cells_ bonus part described them as a link between the innate and adaptive immune system. This clue made me think of dendritic cells, and while I suppose it applies to both answers and wonder if others were also confused by this.
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by vinteuil »

For the second year in a row, Penn Bowl had a clue that gave notes played by transposing instrument as notated instead of as sounding (in the Nocturnes tossup). Don't do this! If you say the horns play Gs and Cs, the players are going to think "it's in C," which this piece is not.
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by Gen. Winfield Scott Hancock »

I was negged for saying "Garden of Forking Paths" and told that the answer was "Garden of the Forking Paths." I didn't protest it at the time because we were ahead by a lot at that point in the game, but even a cursory Google search shows that what I said is correct and there is no "the" at that spot in the title.

Also describing Daisy Miller as "this story" early was offputting to say the least.
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by vinteuil »

Oh yeah, you HAVE to accept “Lorca,” it’s what he’s most often called.
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by alexdz »

The bonus on yogurt from round 1 has two answerline issues, where a clue word from the bonus part is listed as an acceptable answer. Golgappa and imli.
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by Schroeder »

Embryonic stem cells and iPS cells are different things, and should not both be acceptable if you prompt on just stem cells.
a bird wrote: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:46 pm I think the _NK cells_ bonus part described them as a link between the innate and adaptive immune system. This clue made me think of dendritic cells, and while I suppose it applies to both answers and wonder if others were also confused by this.
I guess it could be argued that NK cells fit this description, but I agree that my first thought on hearing that part was to say dendritic cells, which fit the description much better.

The two bonus parts on affinity chromatography also seem non-ideal.
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by a bird »

I will post some general thoughts about the science distribution once I gather my thoughts, but for now I want to say a few positive things about specific questions.

I enjoyed hearing clues about entanglement witnesses and the Boltzmann brain (Boltzmann TU was read to us as a replacement) as well as Turing's work on reaction-diffusion systems. The density TU seemed like a nice way to test fundamental knowledge of relativity and cosmology with a gettable answerline.
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by Victor Prieto »

There were a few chemistry questions whose earlier clues really led me in the wrong direction - d-orbitals, aromaticity, alkynes, and chirality. I'd like to see the text of those questions, please.

I've already privately mentioned this, but I believe the diffusion tossup should have had a prompt for Brownian motion due to the Einstein-Smoluchowski clue, which I learned in the context of Brownian motion (I don't have the question text though). The cyclization tossup had a later clue for the Dieckmann condensation that I don't know if it properly pointed at the answer, or at least I couldn't figure that out during the game - can I see that tossup too, please?
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by Judson Laipply »

Another comment on that embryonic stem cells question. I'd need to see the question text but I'm pretty sure I buzzed on a clue about teratomas and at that point there would be no reasonable way to distinguish between embryonic stem cells and other types of pluri/totipotent stem cells.

Also that Miracle on ice question cliffed on the second clue. I had literally watched a documentary on that game the week before the tournament and got out-buzzer raced on the second clue that mentioned goals and medals after faintly recognizing the clue about the test to get on the team.

EDIT: Addendum: That question on retrograde was nearly impossible to even figure out what type of thing it wanted you to say before that "90 to 180 degree" and even then you'd have to hope that there was no other "phenomenon" that could happen in "the opposite direction."
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by Hobbie Klivian »

Fucitol wrote: Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:01 pm Another comment on that embryonic stem cells question. I'd need to see the question text but I'm pretty sure I buzzed on a clue about teratomas and at that point there would be no reasonable way to distinguish between embryonic stem cells and other types of pluri/totipotent stem cells.

Also that Miracle on ice question cliffed on the second clue. I had literally watched a documentary on that game the week before the tournament and got out-buzzer raced on the second clue that mentioned goals and medals after faintly recognizing the clue about the test to get on the team.

EDIT: Addendum: That question on retrograde was nearly impossible to even figure out what type of thing it wanted you to say before that "90 to 180 degree" and even then you'd have to hope that there was no other "phenomenon" that could happen in "the opposite direction."
Penn Bowl Rd 2 wrote: 13. The VTN-N variant of fibronectin is used to coat surfaces used to culture these cells, which can also be grown in mTesR1 media. Flow cytometric markers of these cells include Tra-1-60, Tra-1-81, SSEA-3, and SSEA-4. One marker for these cells is a protein containing both a POU sequence and a homeodomain, which is capable of inducing expression of Rex1. These cells are commonly cultured in the presence of leukemic inhibitory factor, which induces the overexpression of the transcription factor (*) NANOG. A cocktail of Oct4, Sox2, Klf4, and c-myc is used to maintain these cells. These cells can form teratomas, benign tumors that contain hair or bone tissue, and they are grown on a lawn of mitomycin-c-secreting fibroblasts. They are extracted from the inner cell mass of a blastocyst. For 10 points, name these pluripotent cells that are extracted from human embryos.
ANSWER: embryonic stem cells [or ESCs or induced pluripotent stem cells or iPS cells; prompt on stem cells; prompt on pluripotent stem cells]
<AP, Biology>
This was a frequent issue that happened during in game; we will likely modify prompt instruction for stem cells to be accepted late.
Victor Prieto wrote: Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:36 pm There were a few chemistry questions whose earlier clues really led me in the wrong direction - d-orbitals, aromaticity, alkynes, and chirality. I'd like to see the text of those questions, please.

I've already privately mentioned this, but I believe the diffusion tossup should have had a prompt for Brownian motion due to the Einstein-Smoluchowski clue, which I learned in the context of Brownian motion (I don't have the question text though). The cyclization tossup had a later clue for the Dieckmann condensation that I don't know if it properly pointed at the answer, or at least I couldn't figure that out during the game - can I see that tossup too, please?
Penn Bowl Round 3 wrote: 19. In one effect, these entities expand slightly in size when doubly-occupied; the extent of that effect is given by the parameter beta, which is the ratio of the bonded to free Racah parameter. Vibrionic transitions between two of these entities are weaker than MLCT and LMCT bands because those transitions in centrosymmetric molecules are forbidden by Laporte’s rule. These entities have two angular nodes and magnetic (*) quantum numbers ranging from negative 2 to 2, inclusive. The splitting of these entities into t2g (“T-two-G”) and eg (“E-G”) components is governed by crystal field theory, which predicts the colors of transition metal complexes. For 10 points, name these atomic orbitals whose azimuthal quantum number equals 2, which are found between p and f orbitals.
ANSWER: d orbitals [prompt on orbitals]
<AP, Chemistry>
Can't speak for this q, but the first clue is on Nephelauxetic effect and the second clue is on d->d transition being forbidden since octahedral complexes are centrosymmetric. I guess the second clue could probably throw players off on saying something like "symmetric molecules."
Penn Bowl Round 5 wrote: 4. Alexandru Balaban described the difficulty of defining this property in a famous story about a madman and his dog. Both the anisotropy of magnetic susceptibility and the diamagnetic exaltation are experimental criteria for this property. Normalized sum of squared deviations of bond length is set as one for molecules with this property in the HOMA method. It has negative NICS values, and ring (*) currents in molecules with this property deshield nearby protons in NMR. Cyclooctatetraene notably does not possess this property as it adopts a tub conformation. Molecules with this property have 4n-plus-2 pi electrons by Hückel’s rule, and molecules with it are cyclic and planar with delocalized p orbitals. For 10 points, name this property of molecules like benzene, originally named for those molecules’ distinct smell.
ANSWER: aromaticity
<PL, Chemistry>
The lead-in is a bit whimsical, but the rest are pretty standard clues for aromaticity, I believe.
Penn Bowl Round 8 wrote: 1. A catalyst system that acts on these compounds was first developed by Andre Mortreux and is composed of molybdenum hexacarbonyl and phenol additives. A widely used method for synthesis of these molecules involves base-catalyzed reaction of DAMP at low temperature. These compounds can undergo a palladium-catalyzed cross-coupling reaction with aryl or vinyl halides in a method named for (*) Sonogashira. These molecules can be formed from a reaction that involves lithium–halogen exchange of dibromoalkenes followed by alpha elimination. “Terminal” kinds of these molecules can isomerize into the “internal” kinds of these molecuels through an allene intermediate in the presence of a strong base such as sodium amide. Lindlar’s catalyst can hydrogenate these compounds into cis-alkenes. For 10 points, name these compounds that contain a carbon–carbon triple bond.
ANSWER: alkynes [or terminal alkynes; or internal alkynes; do not accept or prompt on “alkanes” or “alkenes”]
<PL, Chemistry>
Early clues refer to alkyne metathesis, Seyferth-Gilbert (Bestmann modfication) for terminal alkynes, and Sonogashira coupling. DAMP is Dimethyl Diazomethylphosphonate.
Penn Bowl Round 11 wrote: 9. Ligand-exchange and Pirkle-type stationary phases are used in column chromatography on analytes with this property. The octant rule and a namesake exciton method are used alongside UV-vis spectroscopy of analytes with this property, which relies on the Cotton effect. TRISPHAT and Eu(fod)3 are shift reagents used when performing NMR on molecules with this property, which exclusively belong to the C1, Cn, and Dn point groups. Both MTPA and MPA are examples of (*) auxiliary compounds used for derivatization of molecules with this property. Molecules with this property can be named following the Cahn–Ingold–Prelog rules, and those molecules can also be classified as levorotatory or dextrorotatory based on the way they rotate polarized light. For 10 points, name this property that refers to the “handedness” of molecules.
ANSWER: chirality [or enantiomers; or specific types of chirality, such as l, levorotatory, d, dextrorotatory, r, s]
<PL, Chemistry>
Early clues refer to chiral column chromatography, exciton chirality method in UV-vis, chiral shift reagents, and auxiliaries.
Penn Bowl Round 9 wrote: 14. A variant of one example of this type of reaction uses 1,3-dichloro-cis-2-butene to avoid undesirable polymerization products; that reaction was critical to isolating the Wieland–Miescher ketone. It’s not a cascade reaction, but according to the Stork–Eschenmoser hypothesis, squalene epoxide undergoes the cationic form of this process. The selectivity of this kind of process depends on whether the carbon being attacked has a tet, trig, or dig geometry according to (*) Baldwin’s rules. Base-mediated intramolecular of reactions of di-esters to form beta-keto esters is a famous example of one of these reactions named for Dieckmann. A Michael addition followed by an aldol condensation is a reaction of this type named for Robinson. For 10 points, name this class of reactions that result in a ring compounds.
ANSWER: cyclization [or annulation; accept ring formation or ring closure until “ring” is read; prompt on intramolecular reactions]
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You're right that we probably need a prompt instruction for condensation.
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by Hobbie Klivian »

vinteuil wrote: Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:32 pm For the second year in a row, Penn Bowl had a clue that gave notes played by transposing instrument as notated instead of as sounding (in the Nocturnes tossup). Don't do this! If you say the horns play Gs and Cs, the players are going to think "it's in C," which this piece is not.
If you're referring to to A Midsummer Night's Dream score clue, my apologies. This is a recurring mistake that happened last year as well for the Von Weber TU, iirc; this will be fixed.
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by Borrowing 100,000 Arrows »

Few minor things that haven't been mentioned. The bonus part on phonemes is just plain wrong. The bonus claims that a phoneme is smallest meaningful unit of language, but that's a morpheme not a phoneme. Also, the Iran-Contra tossup was very confusing. I buzzed on the second clue, I think, and said the Nicaraguan Civil War, which I think at the point should have been accepted. It'd probably be better to use the pronoun "this scandal" or "this affair" instead of "this event."
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by a bird »

a bird wrote: Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:40 pm for now I want to say a few positive things about specific questions.
I forgot to add the clue on analog Hawking radiation in superfluids to the above list.

There were a few interesting bonuses in this set that tried to make you apply a concept (e.g. the logic bonus in round 8, the angular momentum in the Bohr model bonus part). While I think these questions were testing important knowledge, I thought they were hard to figure out at game pace, especially since they break the expected mold for bonus parts. Maybe giving more time, or having the moderator repeat key parts would make these more gettable.
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by mtebbe »

Borrowing 100,000 Arrows wrote: Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:02 am The bonus part on phonemes is just plain wrong. The bonus claims that a phoneme is smallest meaningful unit of language, but that's a morpheme not a phoneme.
5. Each language has a different set of these sounds, ranging from just 11 in Pirahã (“pee-rah-HAH”) to 141 in !Kung (“kung”). For 10 points each:
[10] Name these units of sound in language, the smallest that can create a change in meaning. Infants can hear the difference between all of these units at birth, but lose the ability to differentiate those that do not occur in their language.
ANSWER: phonemes
[10] These pairs of words, which differ in only one phoneme, must exist in a language for the two sounds to be considered separate phonemes. “Bad” and “dad” are an example in English.
ANSWER: minimal pairs
[10] These two languages are often discussed when studying phonemes and minimal pairs. Speakers of one language can differentiate the sounds /r/ (“arr”) and /l/ (“ell”) but speakers of the other cannot unless they are manipulated to not sound like speech, as studied by Kuniko Miyawaki.
ANSWER: Japanese AND English
<MT, Social Science (Linguistics)>
I don't think I worded this as clearly as I could have, which is my fault, but the other clues rule out morphemes ("sounds," infants hearing the differences between them). In addition, it doesn't say that phonemes are the smallest meaningful unit of language - it says that they are the smallest that can create a change in meaning (between two words), which is exactly what a minimal pair is.
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by t-bar »

mtebbe wrote: Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:06 am I don't think I worded this as clearly as I could have, which is my fault, but the other clues rule out morphemes ("sounds," infants hearing the differences between them). In addition, it doesn't say that phonemes are the smallest meaningful unit of language - it says that they are the smallest that can create a change in meaning (between two words), which is exactly what a minimal pair is.
I agree with Caleb that this should be changed. The distinction you are drawing here may be technically correct, but is very easy to miss at game speed. If you want to be didactic and provide an example--"hey, notice that 'bad' and 'dad' only differ in this property and have a difference in meaning"--that's one thing, but as written it seems like it's intended to be a gotcha.

I'm also not a huge fan of the last bonus part. Presumably you're supposed to figure out Japanese easily, but English isn't the only language that distinguishes /r/ and /l/, and saying that they're "often discussed" together is too vague to be all that helpful.
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by alexdz »

Having majored in linguistics, I agree with Margaret here. The clues pretty much exclusively point to phonemes here. Perhaps a rephrasing of the "change in meaning" sentence could help at game speed, but there's no factual error.

The third part, however, is very vague and probably worth changing.
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by Bhagwan Shammbhagwan »

Did the Heian tossup and the Pillow Book/Shonagon/Murasaki bonus share any info? Even if they didn't, I still feel like you shouldn't put different questions on similar topics in the same set.
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by Sylvia Pankhurst »

Can i see the Weber and Ovary tossups? They both seemed to have very steep cliffs at "traditional, legal, and charismatic" and "polycystic"
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by Tippy Martinez »

The lantern clue in the Third of May tossup seemed to be a bit out of place. The Amazons tossup was also extremely transparent; it was pretty evident after the first clue it wanted a group from myth and then dropped a female sounding name second line.

I thoroughly enjoyed the New Zealand and Camus tossups; kudos to whoever wrote those!
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by Hobbie Klivian »

Pascal Plays Poker wrote: Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:39 am Did the Heian tossup and the Pillow Book/Shonagon/Murasaki bonus share any info? Even if they didn't, I still feel like you shouldn't put different questions on similar topics in the same set.
Rd 6 wrote: 1. “The face of a child drawn on a melon” and a baby sparrow eating worms are listed among this book’s list of “Adorable Things.” For 10 points each:
[10] Name this book that includes lists of “Hateful Things” and “Awkward Things,” a zuihitsu (“ZOO-ee-heet-soo”) work that describes palace intrigues and everyday life during the Heian (“HAY-on”) period.
ANSWER: The Pillow Book
[10] This author of The Pillow Book served under the Empress Teishi, and was called “dreadfully conceited” because she “littered her writing with Chinese characters” by a rival who wrote about Lady Aoi.
ANSWER: Sei Shonagon
[10] That rival of Sei Shonagon wrote what is often considered to be the first novel, The Tale of Genji.
ANSWER: Lady Murasaki Shikibu
<JC, World Literature>
Rd 10 wrote: 3. Modern historiography of this period divides it into the statutory state, the early royal court state, and the late royal court state. One account of life during this period written by a female royal is translated as The Gossamer Years. A poem containing every syllable in the alphabet, the Iroha, was attributed to a religious leader from this period; that religious figure’s mentor, Huiguo (“HWAY-gwoh”), described teaching him being like “one vase filling another.” The [emphasize] decay of the ritsuryō system and the unfolding of the (*) Taika reforms during this period led to the proliferation of shōen (“SHO-en”) estates. The rival Tendai and Shingon schools were formed during this period, during which intermarriage with the Imperial family and a monopoly on the positions of sesshō (“SESH-sho”) and kampaku made the Fujiwara clan de facto rulers. For 10 points, identify this classical period of flourishing Japanese art and literature ended by the Genpei War.
ANSWER: Heian period
<NR, World History>
There is no clue overlap to my knowledge, and the questions were on different categories.
Sylvia Pankhurst wrote: Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:55 am Can i see the Weber and Ovary tossups? They both seemed to have very steep cliffs at "traditional, legal, and charismatic" and "polycystic"
Rd 6 wrote: 2. Pollitt and Bouckaert introduced a type of state named for “neo” and this thinker. C. K. Yang criticized a book by this thinker that analyzes the effects of “cultured status positions” of officialdom. In one work, this participant in the “value judgment” dispute contrasted patrimonial and modern forms of staffing and warned that practitioners of the title activity must balance philosophies of “moral conviction” with those of “responsibility.” This man stated that there are traditional, legal, and (*) charismatic legitimation of leaders in one work. He defined government as a body that claims a “monopoly of the legitimate use of physical force.” This Benjamin Franklin enthusiast warned of the creation of a bureaucratic “iron cage.” For 10 points, name this author of Politics as a Vocation and The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism.
ANSWER: Max Weber
<LC, Social Science (Sociology)>
Rd 8 wrote: 3. It’s not the GI tract, but patients with Peutz–Jeghers (“puts YAY-gurs”) syndrome have a higher incidence of S-C-T-A-T tumors in this organ. It’s not the gut, but one condition named for this organ is diagnosed by observing a “whirlpool” sign or twisted vascular pedicle on ultrasound. The Canal of Nuck is formed after this organ descends through the gubernaculum. A biomarker for tumors of this organ is CA125. The Rotterdam criteria are used to diagnose a condition of this organ which results in insulin resistance and hirsutism from elevated (*) androgen levels; that disorder is polycystic [this organ] syndrome. Granulosa cells in this organ can express LH receptors on their surfaces in response to elevated levels of FSH, which triggers the maturation of follicles and the release of ova into the fallopian tubes. For 10 points, name these female reproductive organs.
ANSWER: ovary
<PL, Biology>
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by aseem.keyal »

Various things (some of these are pretty opinionated, feel free to disregard):
- should "national" be required for "national debt" once you get to the giveaway and it's pretty clear that answers like "household debt" are incorrect?
- minor point, but "Mill's theory of names" or similar answers should be accepted, this tripped up the moderator in our game
- minor point, but I'd argue that in a quiz bowl context the word "telechelic" is more difficult than the description of Carother's equation in the polymerization tossup
- the lotus tossup seemed very easy to power, but the data might prove me wrong
- the tossups on Hasidic Judaism, Miro, comic books, and Dialectic of Enlightenment seemed very difficult to power, but the data might prove me wrong
- the tossup on comic books should either accept "graphic novels" due to the mention of Spiegelman or some other moderator instruction for that answer
- the bonus part on post-painterly abstraction is very misleading, all of the artists mentioned were earlier grouped with Color Field and Abstract Expressionism more generally (and Frankenthaler's Mountains and Sea predates Greenberg's exhibit by 12 years, so I think rewording this part to more clearly disambiguate between the two movements is necessary)
- a pretty memorable line from "Poetry" (and a commonly clued one at that) should not be dropped in the second line of a Moore tossup, in my opinion
- the particle in a box bonus didn't seem to have a hard part
- the box in The Third of May should not be in power, imo
- SIFT seems pretty hard, did people convert this
- C8 really seems to be something people would learn from following the news and not in a classroom or research setting imo
- should have some instruction for buzzes of "condensation" at Dieckmann
- the Stern-Gerlach bonus didn't seem to have a hard part, though the stats could prove me wrong
- having Adamastor in power for The Lusiads seems very forgiving
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by Bensonfan23 »

Here are a few more minor comments and corrections that I wanted to mention, some of which have probably already been addressed. Like Aseem's post, some of these are also pretty opinionated.

-The wording in the pulmonary edema portion of the organs-on-a-chip bonus was pretty confusing. At least in my opinion, the wording made it seem like you were asking for some disease of the lung with edema as one of its symptoms. I really liked this bonus otherwise though; I'd never heard of organs on a chip, but they seem really interesting.
-The bonus part on "dirk" should really prompt on just "dagger". I gave the more general answer expecting to be prompted because I wasn't too sure if it wanted dirk specifically, and I was pretty surprised to not be prompted.
-The bonus parts on Lauretta Walsh and The Ballad of Reading Gaol both mentioned these answers elsewhere in the bonus, which at least caused our team to guess incorrectly as a result of this (I assume we're not the only ones).
-The biotin-streptavidin bonus should probably prompt on something like "protein pull down assay" on the middle part. We were still able to get affinity chromatography, but it took a few prompts. Otherwise a cool bonus though!
-More generally, it felt like a lot of the philosophy and social science bonuses had notably more difficult middle parts than other categories. Things like "theory of mind", Sextus Empiricus, "computational theory of mind", Raymond Catell based on the descriptions given, vacuous truths, etc. were all pretty rough pulls just for a 20.
-The pronoun in the "Millianism" bonus part really threw me off. This is mostly because I've just never seen this term used before though. Probably just asking for the author of "A System of Logic" would have been better though, especially since just saying the author was outright accepted anyway.
-The wording on the Richardson tossup definitely seemed like a hose for anyone buzzing in on the Fielding clue before Fielding's name is dropped sub-optimally at the end of the sentence.
-The tossups on Socrates and Aristotle could probably stand to be in packets further apart from one another given their similar themes of "classical philosopher being interpreted by later philosophers".
-I'm not sure what was supposed to be the easy part in the HF/nitride/Fremy bonus.
-The pronouns in the retrograde orbit and "sculpture" tossups definitely led to these questions playing sub-optimatally at our site at least.
-I realize it was a CE question, and even though my teammates got it, I'd be skeptical saying that the Theranos bonus has a true easy part.
-The stats may prove me wrong about this, but the trash question on the mythology of the Elder Scrolls games seems like the only question I would call a "bad idea" in this set. I'm skeptical that this was converted well anywhere.

In general, these are just some minor comments and suggestions aimed at making this set better for future mirrors though. We really enjoyed the set and had a good time playing it. I particularly enjoyed the bio/chem and thought in the set, even if I think some of it did skew a bit difficult or at least harder to power. Thanks!
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by naan/steak-holding toll »

2. Pollitt and Bouckaert introduced a type of state named for “neo” and this thinker. C. K. Yang criticized a book by this thinker that analyzes the effects of “cultured status positions” of officialdom. In one work, this participant in the “value judgment” dispute contrasted patrimonial and modern forms of staffing and warned that practitioners of the title activity must balance philosophies of “moral conviction” with those of “responsibility.” This man stated that there are traditional, legal, and (*) charismatic legitimation of leaders in one work. He defined government as a body that claims a “monopoly of the legitimate use of physical force.” This Benjamin Franklin enthusiast warned of the creation of a bureaucratic “iron cage.” For 10 points, name this author of Politics as a Vocation and The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism.
ANSWER: Max Weber
What even is going on in the first half of this tossup? A lot of the clues have been robbed of context or written to sound completely generic in a way that makes them coy, uninteresting, and/or practically unbuzzable. I think there are a lot of lessons to be learned here:

1) The concept of a Neo-Weberian state isn't "named for" the common prefix "neo" - nor, unfortunately, is it named after a character from The Matrix. This seems like a potentially interesting opportunity to write a substantive clue about a leading book on public administration, but instead it's just a namedrop (and it appears that this concept is introduced in the 2011 edition of their book, not earlier versions - so someone who's worked with an earlier version might be screwed).
2) The way the clue about "cultured status position" is written question robs the clue of context completely. What is that term used to refer to? What is it contrasted with? What book by Yang are we talking about? Sure, saying Religion in Chinese Society might be suggestive, but as is this is just a secondary reference that is being made pretty hard to place - you either know the bold term or you don't, rather than talking about it in any context (e.g. contrasting it with Puritanism turning people into tools of god, or saying it's something applied to the Confucian tradition)
3) "Value-judgment dispute" - This is definitely not unique and sounds pretty generic. A better wording might be "This thinker, who advocated for a value-free social science in such works as XYZ"
4) "Moral conviction" vs "responsibility" - Also sounds extremely generic. Could be written in any number of books about politicians. I would replace this clue with something more substantive.

I'm not surprised that people are saying this question cliffed hard - in fact, nobody powered this tossup at either the Chicago or Penn sites, despite this question covering one of the most important social scientists in history! People were all predictably jamming their buzzers at one of the core theses of Politics as a Vocation.
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by Borrowing 100,000 Arrows »

alexdz wrote: Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:39 pm Having majored in linguistics, I agree with Margaret here. The clues pretty much exclusively point to phonemes here. Perhaps a rephrasing of the "change in meaning" sentence could help at game speed, but there's no factual error.

The third part, however, is very vague and probably worth changing.
I'm prepared to go to the mat on this one. The question at the very least insinuates that phonological features have something to do with meaning which is such a bizarre thing to say. While the second part of the question clearly points towards phonemes as the answer, it is simply wrong to suggest that phonetic features have anything to do with lexical semantics. Changing a phonological feature does not "produce a change in meaning," it just gives you some other string of sounds. Only morphological features can produce a change in meaning. As currently written, the question is making a pretty severe category mistake.

Edit: said something wrong
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by alexdz »

Borrowing 100,000 Arrows wrote: Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:53 pm
alexdz wrote: Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:39 pm Having majored in linguistics, I agree with Margaret here. The clues pretty much exclusively point to phonemes here. Perhaps a rephrasing of the "change in meaning" sentence could help at game speed, but there's no factual error.

The third part, however, is very vague and probably worth changing.
I'm prepared to go to the mat on this one. The question at the very least insinuates that phonological features have something to do with meaning which is such a bizarre thing to say. While the second part of the question clearly points towards phonemes as the answer, it is simply wrong to suggest that phonetic features have anything to do with lexical semantics. Changing a phonological feature does not "produce a change in meaning," it just gives you some other string of sounds. Only morphological features can produce a change in meaning. As currently written, the question is making a pretty severe category mistake.

Edit: said something wrong
To be quite literal, there is an entire subfield of linguistics that studies the relationship between phones and meaning (phonosemantics). The classic example is the "Bouba/Kiki effect." So I don't think it's fair to say that phonetics has nothing at all to do with meaning/semantics.

I'm sympathetic to the idea that at game speed, players may have been confused by the reference to meaning here, but taken quite literally the question doesn't appear to have an actual factually incorrect error. Swapping out one phoneme for another in a word does literally change that word's meaning.
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by AGoodMan »

There was one bonus that very clearly asked for Martin Luther King Jr, but the actual answerline said Tet Offensive.
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by Lake Winnipesaukee Mystery Stone »

Could I see the TUs on "retrograde" and "Pyrrhus"?
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by Justice William Brennan »

The Abydos Helicopter wrote: Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:41 pm Could I see the TUs on "retrograde" and "Pyrrhus"?
Packet 12 wrote:4. Bodies undergoing this phenomenon have tidal bulges that cause a restoring force, resulting in tidal deceleration. The fact that 2008 KV42 is undergoing this phenomenon suggests that it has been pushed inwards from the Hill cloud. Objects undergoing this phenomenon have an inclination between 90 and 180 degrees. This phenomenon is stable up to the full radius of the Hill sphere, unlike its (*) counterpart, which is only stable up to one-third of that radius. Two main flaws in the Ptolemaic model were geocentrism and that it didn’t explain this phenomenon. The rotations of Venus and Uranus have this property. For 10 points, name this type of orbit which moves in the opposite direction of the body’s primary, which takes its name from the Latin words for “backwards step.”
ANSWER: retrograde orbit
<LC, Other Science (Astronomy)>
Packet 6 wrote:18. Plutarch records that this man noticed incorrect salutations on a letter to figure out Lysimachus was faking his mail. After this man was banished at the age of 12, he fought for Demetrius Poliorcetes. He later married the daughter of Demetrius’s enemy, Ptolemy I, and briefly seized the Macedonian throne from Demetrius and from Antigonus II. This man opened one campaign theater on the advice of the Oracle of Delphi, who recommended that this general help (*) Tarentum, while in another campaign, his allies drove him out of Magna Graecia. This king used “Lucanian oxen” on his way to victories at Heraclea and Asculum, though after the Battle of Beneventum he conceded the war. For 10 points, name this 3rd-century BC King of Epirus who drove Carthage from Syracuse and defeated the Romans with elephants in his namesake war, making his name a byword for costly victories.
ANSWER: Pyrrhus of Epirus
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by CaseyB »

In the logic bonus, I didn't appreciate the instruction to the moderator to ask whether the question should be repeated in the second part. This was just confusing. If you wanted to afford the players the opportunity to here the logic riddle again, then simply tell the moderator to repeat it rather than having the moderator ask if the team if they want to hear it again.
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by a bird »

CaseyB wrote: Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:57 pm In the logic bonus, I didn't appreciate the instruction to the moderator to ask whether the question should be repeated in the second part. This was just confusing. If you wanted to afford the players the opportunity to here the logic riddle again, then simply tell the moderator to repeat it rather than having the moderator ask if the team if they want to hear it again.
I don't have a strong opinion about the instructions saying just repeat or asking if the team want the questions repeated, but I want to thank the editing team for adding some sort of repeat instruction. My team was quite confused after hearing the statement once and didn't really have a chance to process the logical content.

I think this type of question (i.e. asking the player to apply a concept) can be interesting, but often requires some extra time to think through.
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by Judson Laipply »

Justice William Brennan wrote: Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:37 pm
The Abydos Helicopter wrote: Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:41 pm Could I see the TUs on "retrograde" and "Pyrrhus"?
Packet 12 wrote:4. Bodies undergoing this phenomenon have tidal bulges that cause a restoring force, resulting in tidal deceleration.
<LC, Other Science (Astronomy)>
This seems like it should not be unique to retrograde motion but I cannot confirm this.

EDIT: ACCIDENTALLY BOLDED EVERYTHING
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by Lake Winnipesaukee Mystery Stone »

Apologies if I am missing something obvious, but as far as I understand it, one of the whole reasons for the continued success of Ptolemy's model down until Copernicus was that it was pretty good for understanding orbits, and in particular, through a combination of epicycles, eccentricity and the equant point to deal with (apparent) retrograde motion?
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by Everyman »

Maybe this is a UK vs US thing, but describing shoes as 'garments' in the red soles tossup seemed odd and threw me off for a bit; calling them clothing would have been clearer.
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by The Story of a Head That Fell Off »

The Tzigane bonus seems to have said violin in the first part, then ask for violin in the third part.

The MLK/Tet Offensive thing was hilarious, but probably should be fixed before the next mirror.

Can I see the Mozart piano sonata tossup? I know there was something like "it's not chopin" on the first line, but I remember Uchida recording many, many "complete" set of works that wasn't disambiguated in the question (might have just not remembered it or didn't process it at game speed).

Is "post-painterly abstraction" really a "movement"? I always learned that it was a term Greenberg came up with to describe a set of artists, but the artists didn't necessarily identify with the movement. I thought about the term during the game, but dismissed it because I thought it was not a movement.
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by That DCC guy »

Can I see the Austrailian Folkore/myth tossup, the Baudrillard tossup, and the "Belief" tossup (like fixation of belief an etc).
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by Justice William Brennan »

That DCC guy wrote: Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:37 pm Can I see the Austrailian Folkore/myth tossup, the Baudrillard tossup, and the "Belief" tossup (like fixation of belief an etc).
Packet 10 wrote:6. In the folklore of this country, a frog-like creature with red fur sucks people’s blood, causing them to shrink and turn into that creature. A figure from this country is embarrassed when comparing his meal with other animals because he ate two women who had committed incest and awakened him with their menstrual blood; those women were the Wawilak sisters. That creature from this country created water by tickling (*) frogs’ bellies and released all animals from its stomach. Landmarks were described musically to aid navigation in this country’s “songlines,” which mark the route followed by early creators. Those figures, like the Rainbow Serpent, who slithered across the land to create its rivers and waterholes, created landmarks like Uluru. For 10 points, name this country, whose concept of the Dreamtime comes from its Aborigines.
ANSWER: Australia
<JC, Mythology>
Packet 9 wrote:1. This philosopher inaccurately identified the Berlin Wall as a sign of a frozen, “anorexic” history in which communism and capitalism had reached a permanent stasis. This thinker explored the implications of cloning for sex and death and argued that art has penetrated all spheres of existence but lost its identity as a singular phenomenon, a situation this philosopher called “transaesthetics.” This philosopher referenced the extremely detailed map in Borges’s “On Exactitude in Science” and the “play of illusions and phantasms” in Disneyland to discuss the concept of (*) hyperreality. This semiotician criticized the asymmetry and propaganda of one conflict, claiming that it occured in the media, not in reality. For 10 points, name this French postmodernist thinker who wrote Simulacra and Simulation and The Gulf War Did Not Take Place.
ANSWER: Jean Baudrillard (“boh-dree-YARR”)
<NR, Philosophy>
Packet 8 wrote:14. W. V. O. Quine used the example of trenchcoat-wearing mayor Bernard J. Ortcutt to differentiate between de re and de dicto aspects of this concept. An essay on this concept describes two cases where a shipowner sends an unworthy ship on a voyage and it either sinks or arrives, arguing that the author is equally guilty in both situations; that essay by W. K. Clifford is titled for the (*) “Ethics of” this concept. An essay on this concept distinguishes between methods of tenacity, authority, and a priori reasoning before determining the scientific method is the best process for inquiry. In one lecture, a thinker identified “living,” “forced,” and “momentous” criteria for performing this action despite insufficient evidence. For 10 points, Charles Peirce (“purse”) and William James wrote about the “Fixation of” and “Will to” perform what concept?
ANSWER: belief [or “The Ethics of Belief”; or “The Will to Believe”; or “The Fixation of Belief”; accept word forms; accept ethics until “Ethics of” is read; prompt on attitude or propositional attitude]
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by Gen. Winfield Scott Hancock »

Can you please post the Daedra Princes tossup? My teammate who doesn't have a forum account is requesting it.
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by Smuttynose Island »

I'd like to see the Post-Painterly Abstraction bonus, please. At UW's December 1st mirror, I had all the same issues that previous posters had with the bonus.
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by Justice William Brennan »

gettysburg11 wrote: Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:33 pm Can you please post the Daedra Princes tossup? My teammate who doesn't have a forum account is requesting it.
I'm really sorry for the extremely late reply. This answer line was "Daedric Princes" at the main site, but was changed to "Elder Scrolls" to make it more accessible. As far as I know, the clues are largely unchanged.
Packet 5 wrote:9. One of the characters from this video game series sleeps with a deity for 88 days straight, resulting in many spirits returning from the dead to feast upon the “pomegranate banquet.” Four signs including “Fire from the Eye of Glass” and “Tide of Woe” predate one hunting event from this game series, which occurs only once every era. A realm from this game series undergoes an event called Greymarch at the end of every era due to the emergence of Forces of Order. The hero of (*) Kvatch undergoes apotheosis at the end of one game from this series during his adventures in the Shivering Isles. In another game from this series, a dragon named Paarthurnax helps the main character meditate on his shouts. For 10 points, name this video game series featuring Daedric lords such as Hircine and Azura, whose most recent entries include Oblivion and Skyrim.
ANSWER: The Elder Scrolls Series [or Morrowind; accept Oblivion or Skyrim until read]
<PL, Trash (Video Games)>
Smuttynose Island wrote: Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:41 pm I'd like to see the Post-Painterly Abstraction bonus, please. At UW's December 1st mirror, I had all the same issues that previous posters had with the bonus.
Packet 5 wrote:18. One artist in this movement used the “soak stain” technique to depict Nova Scotia in pastel pinks, blues, and greens in Mountains and Sea. For 10 points each:
[10] Helen Frankenthaler was a member of this movement, which Harold Rosenberg described as producing “apocalyptic wallpaper” in his essay “The American Action Painters.” It included de Kooning and Pollock.
ANSWER: abstract expressionism
[10] Frankenthaler is also identified with this later group, which was named by Clement Greenberg, who commented on its bright and depersonalized nature. This term includes the art of Kenneth Noland and Morris Louis.
ANSWER: post-painterly abstraction
[10] This abstract expressionist and creator of “zips” is often considered to presage post-painterly abstraction in works like Broken Obelisk, Onement 1, and Vir Heroicus Sublimis.
ANSWER: Barrett Newman
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by A Dim-Witted Saboteur »

Packet 5 wrote:18. One artist in this movement used the “soak stain” technique to depict Nova Scotia in pastel pinks, blues, and greens in Mountains and Sea. For 10 points each:
[10] Helen Frankenthaler was a member of this movement, which Harold Rosenberg described as producing “apocalyptic wallpaper” in his essay “The American Action Painters.” It included de Kooning and Pollock.
ANSWER: abstract expressionism
[10] Frankenthaler is also identified with this later group, which was named by Clement Greenberg, who commented on its bright and depersonalized nature. This term includes the art of Kenneth Noland and Morris Louis.
ANSWER: post-painterly abstraction
[10] This abstract expressionist and creator of “zips” is often considered to presage post-painterly abstraction in works like Broken Obelisk, Onement 1, and Vir Heroicus Sublimis.
ANSWER: Barrett Newman
<JC, Painting>
You spelled Barnett Newman wrong if this is the way this bonus appeared in the packet.
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by Evan Lynch »

Packet 5 wrote:18. One artist in this movement used the “soak stain” technique to depict Nova Scotia in pastel pinks, blues, and greens in Mountains and Sea. For 10 points each:
[10] Helen Frankenthaler was a member of this movement, which Harold Rosenberg described as producing “apocalyptic wallpaper” in his essay “The American Action Painters.” It included de Kooning and Pollock.
ANSWER: abstract expressionism
[10] Frankenthaler is also identified with this later group, which was named by Clement Greenberg, who commented on its bright and depersonalized nature. This term includes the art of Kenneth Noland and Morris Louis.
ANSWER: post-painterly abstraction
[10] This abstract expressionist and creator of “zips” is often considered to presage post-painterly abstraction in works like Broken Obelisk, Onement 1, and Vir Heroicus Sublimis.
ANSWER: Barrett Newman
<JC, Painting>
Seeing as Clement Greenberg also coined the name of color field painting, and all these artists are identified with color field (or specifically the second generation of color field), PPA being the answer line was quite surprising. I'd propose that future questions with the answerline "Post-Painterly Abstraction" are about the exhibition rather than the movement. It's great to see Helen Frankenthaler coming up more, though.
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by ryanrosenberg »

Periplus of the Erythraean Sea wrote: Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:28 pm
2. Pollitt and Bouckaert introduced a type of state named for “neo” and this thinker. C. K. Yang criticized a book by this thinker that analyzes the effects of “cultured status positions” of officialdom. In one work, this participant in the “value judgment” dispute contrasted patrimonial and modern forms of staffing and warned that practitioners of the title activity must balance philosophies of “moral conviction” with those of “responsibility.” This man stated that there are traditional, legal, and (*) charismatic legitimation of leaders in one work. He defined government as a body that claims a “monopoly of the legitimate use of physical force.” This Benjamin Franklin enthusiast warned of the creation of a bureaucratic “iron cage.” For 10 points, name this author of Politics as a Vocation and The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism.
ANSWER: Max Weber
What even is going on in the first half of this tossup? A lot of the clues have been robbed of context or written to sound completely generic in a way that makes them coy, uninteresting, and/or practically unbuzzable. I think there are a lot of lessons to be learned here:

1) The concept of a Neo-Weberian state isn't "named for" the common prefix "neo" - nor, unfortunately, is it named after a character from The Matrix. This seems like a potentially interesting opportunity to write a substantive clue about a leading book on public administration, but instead it's just a namedrop (and it appears that this concept is introduced in the 2011 edition of their book, not earlier versions - so someone who's worked with an earlier version might be screwed).
2) The way the clue about "cultured status position" is written question robs the clue of context completely. What is that term used to refer to? What is it contrasted with? What book by Yang are we talking about? Sure, saying Religion in Chinese Society might be suggestive, but as is this is just a secondary reference that is being made pretty hard to place - you either know the bold term or you don't, rather than talking about it in any context (e.g. contrasting it with Puritanism turning people into tools of god, or saying it's something applied to the Confucian tradition)
3) "Value-judgment dispute" - This is definitely not unique and sounds pretty generic. A better wording might be "This thinker, who advocated for a value-free social science in such works as XYZ"
4) "Moral conviction" vs "responsibility" - Also sounds extremely generic. Could be written in any number of books about politicians. I would replace this clue with something more substantive.

I'm not surprised that people are saying this question cliffed hard - in fact, nobody powered this tossup at either the Chicago or Penn sites, despite this question covering one of the most important social scientists in history! People were all predictably jamming their buzzers at one of the core theses of Politics as a Vocation.
This is an excellent post, and future writers would do well to follow Will's advice.
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by Mike Bentley »

Could I see the Bell Jar tossup? I had just read this book but did not convert the tossup. Maybe I just missed hearing something but the early clues seemed to involve a joke about penises looking like turkeys which was vaguely familiar and then several hard to buzz on descriptions about the protagonist receiving treatment.
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by Maxwell Sniffingwell »

I was frustrated to discover that Nijinsky, and not Fokine, was described as the choreographer of Petrushka. I was much more frustrated to see that the error was present and discovered when the set was played in October, and the writers did nothing to fix the mistake.

If you're holding mirrors at vastly different times, I think there has to be some sort of responsibility to correct blatant factual errors for later mirrors.
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by ryanrosenberg »

I'm curious as to the reasoning behind classifying the tossup on "slideshows" in Finals 1 as sociology. To my eye, about half of the clues are about A Visit From the Goon Squad, which is clearly literature, with the other clues being drawn from academic-ish pop culture (David Byrne's EEEI), data visualization (Edward Tufte) and business history (pre-FTP and giveaway). This tossup is very enjoyable and would fit in well to a Mixed/Other Academic distribution, but it doesn't seem like social science to me.
Penn Bowl Finals 1 wrote: 17. In this medium, The Talking Heads’ David Byrne created the work Envisioning Emotional Epistemological Information. In a work in this medium, a girl declares “My job is to make people uncomfortable” and recounts watching solar panels move in the desert with her dad. A writer created a sample of this medium as it might have been used in the novel 1984 or at the (*) Gettysburg Address. Sasha Blake’s daughter conveys her brother Lincoln’s obsession with long pauses in rock music in an entire chapter of A Visit from the Goon Squad written in this medium. The “chartjunk” of its “cognitive style” was lambasted in an essay by Edward Tufte (“TUF-tee”). This medium was developed by Forethought, Inc., whose software allowed users to transition between this medium’s title objects grouped into “decks.” For 10 points, name this medium of PowerPoint.
ANSWER: slideshows [or slide deck; accept PowerPoint until read; prompt on presentations]
<JC, Social Science (Sociology)>
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by Romanos I Lekapenos »

This is just a minor issue, but the chimera tossup from round 1 incorrectly gives the name of the husband of Antea (Stheneboea) as Proteus. It should be Proetus.
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by cyclohexane »

On the topic of the post-painterly abstraction bonus, I just checked my modern art textbook and Mountains and Sea is one of the paintings talked about in the section titled "post-painterly abstraction" and appears alongside a quote from Greenberg about post-painterly abstraction, and that's the context in which I've heard Frankenthaler discussed in in the classroom as well. Maybe the bonus was a bit difficult, but I don't think it was really factually incorrect.
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by Smuttynose Island »

cyclohexane wrote: Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:34 pm On the topic of the post-painterly abstraction bonus, I just checked my modern art textbook and Mountains and Sea is one of the paintings talked about in the section titled "post-painterly abstraction" and appears alongside a quote from Greenberg about post-painterly abstraction, and that's the context in which I've heard Frankenthaler discussed in in the classroom as well. Maybe the bonus was a bit difficult, but I don't think it was really factually incorrect.
The issue was not that the question was factually incorrect, but did a poor job distinguishing between two equally valid answers.
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Re: Specific Question Discussion Thread

Post by Mike Bentley »

Smuttynose Island wrote: Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:41 pm
cyclohexane wrote: Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:34 pm On the topic of the post-painterly abstraction bonus, I just checked my modern art textbook and Mountains and Sea is one of the paintings talked about in the section titled "post-painterly abstraction" and appears alongside a quote from Greenberg about post-painterly abstraction, and that's the context in which I've heard Frankenthaler discussed in in the classroom as well. Maybe the bonus was a bit difficult, but I don't think it was really factually incorrect.
The issue was not that the question was factually incorrect, but did a poor job distinguishing between two equally valid answers.
I'd say that in general you want to be very careful about art movement questions. These are almost never things that artists enter in on their own. They're constructed by critics, often centuries after the artists have died. And artists create many works over their long careers, many of which can't be easily squared with the movement they may be best known for. I'd say that when in doubt, don't make an answer line on an art movement.
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