UGA Classic City Classic 10/24

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UGA Classic City Classic 10/24

Post by gwaustin4 » Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:00 pm

The UGA quizbowl team is happy to announce its Classic City Classic Varsity tournament for the date of Saturday, October 24th. We are striving to guarantee at least seven matches to all teams, with a single elimination playoff to determine the winner. Questions will be house-written. Tournament format is tentative until a relative field size is established. We plan to start the tournament at 8:30 and finish it by 5. Trophies will go to the top two teams and plaques will be awarded to third and fourth placed teams. Individual book prizes will also be rewarded. The tournament will take place in the Journalism building. An interactive campus map is located here: http://maps.uga.edu/website/htmlviewer/ ... viewer.htm

The first team will cost $60 and each subsequent team will cost $45 with a $5 discount for working buzzers with a maximum buzzer discount of $10. Make out all checks to Athens Quizbowl.

If you would like to sign up or have any questions please contact ugaquizbowl@gmail.com

FIELD
Alpharetta (1)
Berea HS (1)
Berkmar (3)
Brookwood (?)
Central Gwinnett (1)
Chattahoochee (2-3)
Creekview (1)
Eastside (1)
Kennesaw Mountain (1)
Mary Persons (1)
Northgate (1)
North Gwinnett (1)
Prince Avenue Christian (1)
Tucker HS (2)
Walton (1)
West hall (1)

Expressed Interest:
Lamar County
Heritage
Rockdale Magnet
Southwest HS
Westminster
Last edited by gwaustin4 on Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:05 am, edited 12 times in total.
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Re: UGA Classic City Classic 10/24

Post by Rountree » Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:07 pm

This date should work out well for us, so Chattahoochee will bring at least 2 teams to this tournament. (We may, in fact, be able to bring 3 teams.) Also, we will bring 2 buzzer systems. Thanks Wes!
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Re: UGA Classic City Classic 10/24

Post by gwaustin4 » Sat Oct 10, 2009 5:30 pm

So we now have about 20 teams registered for this tournament, and we expect at least another half dozen or so to confirm or contact us soon. Originally we expected less than 16 teams, so we're seriously considering changing the format to allow the better teams more games total, and more games against each other, while giving the less experienced teams more appropriate competition. We were also trying to keep in mind that many of our teams wouldn't want to stay for any more than 7 rounds. With packets limiting us to 10 rounds, we had planned on having 7 games RR and then a single elimination playoff, though now we will likely change the format to the following:

Assuming a field of 28 teams, the day will start with separate brackets of 7 teams each. 6 rounds will be played in each bracket, then the top 2 from each bracket will advance to an upper division, which will be divided in two groups of 4 teams each. Those two groups will have a 3 game RR, followed by a final cross-bracket game to determine placement. (This idea is, of course, taken from the NSC structure, which I think is an excellent way of doing it, so props to the creators). Of the lower 18 team division, the upper 16 would have a single elimination the rest of the way. The single elimination would not be ideal, but it would cater to teams that would want to leave earlier (going off the possibly incorrect assumption that the lower-finishing teams are more likely to be the ones that would want to leave). It would also give the possibility for b teams of top division teams to continue playing for a time as opposed to sitting out and waiting through their other players's four more rounds.

The above would be altered slightly depending on how many teams we get, though that is the plan for now.

If we have enough extra tossups/bonuses to make a half packet for tie-breaking, then we will do that, but if not then we will use ppb.

In this format, everyone will get at least 6 games, and all but the bottom two teams would get at least 7. The top 8 teams would hear all 10 rounds. It might get a little complicated and confusing at times but I can't think of any other obvious flaws with it. If anyone has any comments or can think of a way to improve it, please say so. Also, I'm still trying to figure out if the morning records should carry over. So again, please tell me your thoughts on this.
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Re: UGA Classic City Classic 10/24

Post by Rountree » Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:54 am

Wes,

First, let me say I am glad y'all are getting a good response from so many teams. I hope this begins a trend for UGA tournaments, and that last year was just an aberration for UGA College Bowl. I am really looking forward to this tournament. Additionally, as your former Coach, I am very proud of you for pulling this together in your first year of college at the greatest University in the world! Go Dawgs! :grin:

Now, as for your tournament format post, the most obvious potential problem with that format is if you carry over records from the prelims to the playoffs, then you could end up getting 2 teams with identical records after 9 rounds, each having played the other twice and each winning 1 of those 2 games. Without a tie-breaker game ready to execute, it would be hard-pressed for you to fairly determine which team was better, and, thus, who should play in the championship game. Remember the NSC 2 years ago where something similar happened to Dorman? If I remember correctly, they went undefeated through the prelims AND the playoffs, but then lost to a 2-loss TJ team in the "semifinals" and were shut out of the championship game against Whitman, who also went undefeated? PACE quickly realized how awful this format could be, so they modified the playoff format last year to help prevent something like that from happening again. It is not that strange to think something similar could happen at UGA in 2 weeks if you follow the same structure. Remember, it is not about making a complicated tournament structure, but making one that is fair to all teams in attendance!
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Re: UGA Classic City Classic 10/24

Post by AlphaQuizBowler » Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:39 am

I would definitely prefer round-robin playoffs to single-elim. I have one question, though: how do you plan or playing 6 rounds in a 7-team bracket? I'm pretty sure you'd need 7. If you had, say, 24 teams, you could do 4 brackets of 6, then 2 brackets of 4, then crossover (and you'd have a packet for tiebreaks).
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Re: UGA Classic City Classic 10/24

Post by gwaustin4 » Sun Oct 11, 2009 2:16 pm

AlphaQuizBowler wrote:I would definitely prefer round-robin playoffs to single-elim. I have one question, though: how do you plan or playing 6 rounds in a 7-team bracket? I'm pretty sure you'd need 7. If you had, say, 24 teams, you could do 4 brackets of 6, then 2 brackets of 4, then crossover (and you'd have a packet for tiebreaks).
Of course, as of now the number of teams is not fixed anyway, so we may end up doing that if we only get 24, or we may have to do another way to accommodate for more teams. I was giving a basic structure, which would remain in some form no matter how many teams we have. You are correct though, i had totally forgotten about byes, so we would need another round if we had odd numbers of teams in each brackets. We will change accordingly. Maybe if we capped it at 30, to have five divisions of 6, have 5 prelims, then for the top ten there'd be two more brackets and a four round RR, followed by crossover finish. if we had four extra teams in the bottom bracket, instead of just having them not make it we would probably do in games, since we would have another packet anyway.

thanks for pointing that out horton, ha ha. it couldve been a big problem later.
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Re: UGA Classic City Classic 10/24

Post by gwaustin4 » Sun Oct 11, 2009 2:43 pm

RountreeCHS wrote:Wes,

First, let me say I am glad y'all are getting a good response from so many teams. I hope this begins a trend for UGA tournaments, and that last year was just an aberration for UGA College Bowl. I am really looking forward to this tournament. Additionally, as your former Coach, I am very proud of you for pulling this together in your first year of college at the greatest University in the world! Go Dawgs! :grin:

Now, as for your tournament format post, the most obvious potential problem with that format is if you carry over records from the prelims to the playoffs, then you could end up getting 2 teams with identical records after 9 rounds, each having played the other twice and each winning 1 of those 2 games. Without a tie-breaker game ready to execute, it would be hard-pressed for you to fairly determine which team was better, and, thus, who should play in the championship game. Remember the NSC 2 years ago where something similar happened to Dorman? If I remember correctly, they went undefeated through the prelims AND the playoffs, but then lost to a 2-loss TJ team in the "semifinals" and were shut out of the championship game against Whitman, who also went undefeated? PACE quickly realized how awful this format could be, so they modified the playoff format last year to help prevent something like that from happening again. It is not that strange to think something similar could happen at UGA in 2 weeks if you follow the same structure. Remember, it is not about making a complicated tournament structure, but making one that is fair to all teams in attendance!
Thank you for the kind words, though of course this is an effort of all of UGA quizbowl, and I'm happy to say that many people have been pretty good about getting their questions done and finishing whatever task needs to be completed (getting rooms, responding to emails, etc). I too, hope that UGA can hold successful tournaments with many teams in the future, but I think it may be a little too early for that, as a lot of stuff could easily go wrong with this one. :wink:

Hopefully we will know enough about the hs circuit and will have enough stats for comparison not to place in the same prelim and playoff brackets two dominant teams that would beat everyone else all day but eachother, though if this happened we would use a tiebreaker game or ppb, depending on if the previous is available. Though such a situation would be possible, it is not too probable, and I had thought the potential for that unfairness would be less so considerering the greater possibility of unfairness if we didnt use the morning records, a situation in which one team could lose a game in the prelims and then win all the playoffs, thus technically being ahead of other teams that may have only one loss as well, but that lost that game in the supposedly harder playoff division. But I do see your point, for the sake of not having too many ties we may just use the records from the playoffs, though this is more complicated than I had anticipated, so I'll need to check all of this with other people on the team. In the mean time, does anyone else have anything to say about which would be more fair? I'm not too experienced with this so I feel like I'm leaving out certain possibilities that could prove really annoying later. Maybe this sort of thing belongs in a theory thread, or maybe one existed before but I never saw it.
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Re: UGA Classic City Classic 10/24

Post by Rountree » Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:27 pm

Wes,

It is looking VERY doubtful that we will have 2 teams next weekend. There is an ACT that day and some band thing going on; consequently, we are losing a handful of Varsity players to both.

Please reduce us to 1 team and 1 buzzer; hopefully, that will open up a spot for a team on your Waiting List. Sorry we can't bring more. See you soon.

Go Dawgs! Maybe we can beat Vandy today!
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Re: UGA Classic City Classic 10/24

Post by Rountree » Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:30 pm

The Hooch will be there with 1 team (sans 2 of our top players) and 1 buzzer. Any updates about the tournament format and field?

See you in the Classic City in a few days.
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Re: UGA Classic City Classic 10/24

Post by gwaustin4 » Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:56 pm

We had a few teams drop, a few more sign up at the last minute, and yet more who stated they were coming but never officially confirmed. So as of now we could have anywhere from 14 to 22 teams. Naturally, bracketing and planning a format for such a wide range is something of a nightmare, though we are trying to plan for every possible scenario.

On the plus side, the questions are looking very good, if not a little difficult.
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Re: UGA Classic City Classic 10/24

Post by Rountree » Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:02 am

Wes,

Do you expect to post a final field update sometime today, or will we decide on the format tomorrow morning after all teams have arrived? Also, as you may have already surmised, saying the questions might be "a little difficult" could throw up some red flags for people - just a fair warning for you and your team. Regardless, we are really looking forward to tomorrow. See you soon!
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Re: UGA Classic City Classic 10/24

Post by gwaustin4 » Sat Oct 24, 2009 6:05 pm

So a quick update on how this went:

18 teams showed up, we had three divisions of 6 and 5 prelim games. We then seperated into top/bottom divisions, which each had 8 because one school that brought two teams left at lunch, after prelims. The playoffs consisted of single elim for the bottom 8, and two bracketed divisions of four in the top, with cross-overs for placement. Because 5-8 places didnt matter for trophies or anything, those teams elected not to play and instead just left after 8 rounds. Bouncebacks were used and negs recorded.

The top four teams, who all played 9 rounds, finished as follows.
1) Alpharetta
2) Chattahoochee
3) Brookwood A
4) Walton

Individuals were, in order: William (alpharetta), Abubakar (Walton), and Dave from Central Gwinnett

My understanding is that all of the above teams were missing at least some of their top players, though I cannot say how that affected each's respective performance.

I'll try to get up the sqbs stats asap, but i'm learning how to do it so it may take a while. If anyone can help/knows some excellent instructional sites thatd be nice. Also, we are looking into mirroring the questions, though as soon as we know the situation on that we will submit our tus for archiving.

Thanks to everyone for coming out! Also, Special Thanks to Daichi Ueda and especially Nick Clusserath, who helped with some last minute editing when it became clear that some people just were not going to pull anything close to their weight.
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Re: UGA Classic City Classic 10/24

Post by gwaustin4 » Sat Oct 24, 2009 6:28 pm

Also, we are seriously considering trying to mirror this, so if anyone has any non-question specific critiques/advice/opinions please share, and if you have specific errors we need to fix email me at gwaustin4@gmail.com

As a whole the questions seemed accessible to hs teams, with over half of the field putting up over 200 pts with bouncebacks in the prelims, if my memory is correct, and the best few teams getting well over 400 points. The numbers would obviously be lower without bouncebacks.
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Re: UGA Classic City Classic 10/24

Post by gwaustin4 » Sat Oct 24, 2009 6:59 pm

Stats can be found here:


http://cchiego.myweb.uga.edu/CCC4_standings.html

Tucker high school left after the prelims, so their two teams had fewer games. Also, there was a noticeable increase in difficulty past around round 6, so stats are lower. Also, ppb is skewed because of bouncebacks.

*EDIT: also, due to some communications issues, individual scores were not kept in some rounds of the playoffs, and I don't believe any individual scores were kept for the lower playoff division.
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Re: UGA Classic City Classic 10/24

Post by Rountree » Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:05 pm

Wes,

I thought the questions were good to very good - quite appropriate for the teams in attendance and they were clue dense without rambling. There were a few repeats within 1-2 of the later rounds, but nothing that drastically affected the results. While the question difficulty did increase as the tournament progressed, I don't believe it bothered the remaining teams at all.

My only real complaint: the tournament ran a little long for 9 rounds. We finished the championship just after 5pm. Though 5pm is not "late," in my opinion you should be able to complete more than 9 rounds by 5pm. Luckily, you can fix this by 1) starting on time; and 2) not give 1.5 hours for lunch. That could have saved you at least 45 minutes (maybe more).

Overall, I really liked this tournament, particularly in comparison to UGA's effort last year (which was atrocious). I really hope you are able to mirror this in a few places as I believe many teams would enjoy these questions as much as we did. Thanks again!
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Re: UGA Classic City Classic 10/24

Post by centralhs » Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:26 am

I also was extremely pleased with the set of questions used at this tournament. They were clear and well-written and achieved the proper balance of containing material challenging to the strongest teams at the tournament while still being accessible at the high school level. A number of questions in the later rounds went beyond what is usually in the high school "canon" (I would love to give specific examples, but I understand that the tournament may be mirrored later, so I can't), but not so much that repeated, consecutive questions went unanswered.

The only (very minor) criticism that I would have is that some of the early rounds seemed to "name drop" literary works, especially early in the question. I am not a big fan of questions that start... "In addition to writing "blah blah blah" [supposedly obscure work] and "blah blah blah" [supposedly obscure work], this author also wrote "blah blah blah" and "blah blah blah"[supposedly slightly less obscure works.] Unfortunately, I don't have the questions yet so I am just going on memory, but it seems like in the first round or two, there were a number of questions written in this vein.

As Wes noted above, pretty much all of the top teams had at least one player absent due to the ACT and/or band competition. However, most (if not all) teams still had their strongest, usually highest scoring player present. As evidenced by the high scores earned on these fairly challenging questions, the top 6 teams at the tournament are quite strong even without their full roster.

Thanks for all the hard work that you obviously put into writing these questions and organizing the tournament. By the way, Dawit (Dave) from my team really liked the cool Bulldog statue trophy that he received for being the 3rd highest individual scorer!

Cathy Hirsch
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Central Gwinnett High School

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