ProtoBowl

Packet databases and other quizbowl sites, apps, or software should be discussed here.
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by Golran » Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:14 pm

Tokyo Sex Whale wrote:One thing you can do instead of creating endless ban filters is to integrate Protobowl with Facebook, so that people use their real names in the lobby and in games. That way, you remove their cover of anonymity and make them accountable for disgusting things that they say.
I'm not really a fan of this because there are a number of people that don't have facebook for whatever reason, and requiring it for this would serve to disenfranchise them. Perhaps a less extreme would be to make facebook required to do anything except buzz and answer?
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by AKKOLADE » Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:15 pm

Is it possible to selectively incorporate that?
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by vinteuil » Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:22 pm

I actually had a really good experience on ProtoBowl when I was playing today in terms of civility and sportsmanship, for what it's worth.
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by Adventure Temple Trail » Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:03 pm

Golran wrote:
Tokyo Sex Whale wrote:One thing you can do instead of creating endless ban filters is to integrate Protobowl with Facebook, so that people use their real names in the lobby and in games. That way, you remove their cover of anonymity and make them accountable for disgusting things that they say.
I'm not really a fan of this because there are a number of people that don't have facebook for whatever reason, and requiring it for this would serve to disenfranchise them. Perhaps a less extreme would be to make facebook required to do anything except buzz and answer?
I too am skeptical of using Facebook as the name-enforcement mechanism, if only because not everyone has Facebook. But I sympathize with the principle that anonymous people shouldn't wreak havoc or be able to cheat without real-world accountability. Perhaps you could ban people who don't use some uniquely identifying nickname as their online nickname, which incorporates enough of their name and affiliation to be unique. (e.g. I could something along the lines of "MattJ", "MattJackson", "mJackson", "MattGDS10", "MattBHSAT", so long as the moderators understand that it couldn't be anyone else, but not "ryuaqua" or "troll" or "HaroldBloomSuxx1992".) Alternately, you could do a bit less and just make sure that each user has a consistent nickname from session to session - maybe prevent people from changing nickname more often than, say, once a week.

It goes without saying that this sort of name requirement mechanism would also serve to curb cheating. Cheating is unacceptable, period, no matter how low the stakes are or whether the questions are online. The only appropriate ways to proceed if you've heard a question from a previous packet already are (a) don't buzz on that question already (b) buzz in the exact same place you would have buzzed when you first heard it, and I don't trust random Internet denizens to do (b). Does Protobowl keep track of user IP addresses? You could use that information to be sure that malicious users are really getting banned as well.
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by Emil Nolde » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:00 pm

I for one don't and won't use Facebook, so yeah.
Oh, and
IP bans now last longer (25 minutes instead of 15)
So yeah, that's in place.

In general, I don't think I'd be in favor of adopting a 'use something resembling your real name' clause of any sort. Not because strict anonymity is a good thing, necessarily, but just because I like my username, and also perhaps because sharing of real names might invite unwanted stuff. Perhaps some irl info, such as name, affiliation, etc could go in a mouseover text? Not sure.

EDIT: Also, I've been thinking about how the moderating system might work best. The way I see it, such a position shouldn't be super exclusive really, or as small as it might be otherwise. It might consist of around twenty users or something, just so that there is enough that a moderator is on most of the time. Perhaps the moderators with longer track records should be able to deputize, so as to not swamp the secret ninja clan if at all possible. Perhaps a fix for this whole issue of username accountability would be implementing some sort of reputation system that rewards long-term commitment. However, points can be taken away if bad activity is witnessed, and the lower your reputation, the easier you are to kick, and the less power you have in the room to begin with. I don't know if it would be based solely on usernames, or on IPs. Just something I was thinking.
Last edited by Emil Nolde on Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by AKKOLADE » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:34 pm

I just tried the software for the first time. The HSQB room seemed pretty decently behaved, though not overly active at the time. I think the recently announced changes will help with things some, though of course the concern of dealing with the previously mentioned problems is still there.

The software's really impressive.
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by kevink » Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:43 am

Fred wrote:Is it possible to selectively incorporate that?
Technically yes, but it's a bit complicated, and there are more than a few reasons I don't want to implement that.
thyringe_supine wrote: So, on to more practical things. As I mentioned earlier, I had no idea private rooms now hold the majority of traffic. What exactly would the statistical breakdown look like between private and public room usage? Do people who use private rooms usually just stay by themselves?
Right at this moment there are 45 active users and 77 users online. These 77 users are in 49 rooms, and the 45 active users are in 30 unique rooms. There's an average round trip time of 96.7ms. The server started 1 hour ago.

Here's a breakdown of all the rooms sorted by number active

3/15 (lobby), 3/14, 3/3, 3/15, 3/14, 2/4, 2/15, 2/14, 2/12, 2/14, 1/6, 1/6, 1/15, 1/15, 1/4, 1/14, 1/1, 1/1, 1/14, 1/1, 1/12, 1/1, 1/9, 1/1, 1/1, 1/14, 1/15, 1/1, 1/1, 1/1

The rooms with 1/1 are private study rooms, and there aren't really too many of those, but there are a few. Most of the rooms are pretty full (they cap off at around 15 because that's the magic point at which protobowl starts deleting inactive users), but there's a long tail of active users, a lot of people are alone in big rooms.
thyringe_supine wrote: So yeah, that's in place.
IP bans have been in place for some time now. They can be manually triggered by secret ninjas, or automatically triggered after three normal bans.
Golran wrote: I'm not really a fan of this because there are a number of people that don't have facebook for whatever reason, and requiring it for this would serve to disenfranchise them. Perhaps a less extreme would be to make facebook required to do anything except buzz and answer?
There's a hidden setting that allows me to disable chat for everyone, in case it ever gets really really bad. Ben and I have considered the possibility of removing chat from /lobby to artificially incentivize other rooms. I've already basically permalocked the room settings on lobby.

But the idea of enforcing real names is an interesting one, I don't think its an issue anywhere outside of /lobby (or perhaps /hsquizbowl). But I think it's important to sort of establish a sort of /lobby etiquette document, which will be posted if not at least linked to in the irc-esque topic region (mentioned in the changelog). Right now the moderators are sort of here to ban behavior which is clearly unacceptable, but it's not quite at the point at which they're encouraging some definition of "model behavior".

So what should be in it? No slurs appears to be a given, but should profanity be prohibited, allowed or merely discouraged? What should the policy for banning be (i.e. how many warnings should be given prior, and should there be a reprimand button which gives a user a warning without any direct consequences- or are moderators ok with sending direct/personal messages to users chiding bad behavior first)? Should real names be enforced?
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by vinteuil » Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:36 am

kevink wrote:So what should be in it?
kevink wrote:No slurs appears to be a given, but should profanity be prohibited, allowed or merely discouraged?
I've been working with "discouraged"—profanity is off-putting to some people, but not so off-putting that it should be completely disallowed (there's always a situation—besides, some of the trashier questions/answerlines are almost as bad).
kevink wrote:What should the policy for banning be (i.e. how many warnings should be given prior, and should there be a reprimand button which gives a user a warning without any direct consequences- or are moderators ok with sending direct/personal messages to users chiding bad behavior first)?
I like the idea of a reprimand button; I've also been working heavily with message (for which I have called various synonyms—all polite—for policepeople, and I'm ok with that).
kevink wrote:Should real names be enforced?
Personally, no, and also personally, I like chat in the lobby, just because it helps foster community and sportsmanship (as well as the trolling, which can be minimized). I feel a lot less comfortable doing anything online under my real name, unless I'm in some "friends-only" space like Google+ or Facebook, but that's totally personal and I could be the only one.
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by Emil Nolde » Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:45 am

There's now a custom "topic" (a la irc) property of rooms which can be set by secret ninjas (i.e. Ben or me). It shows up as a box below the timer, and it could be used to contain a short list of rules/etc.
Is there any way to make the app enforce these rules, or would it have to be monitored?
I think that would be a good way to just advertise the general purpose of a room, as well as admins, formats and whatnot. The team-based room could happen. Oh, also, from statistics, can you tell how often people have been playing with teams? Like I said earlier, that's a really good feature and should get some more usage.

EDIT:Could a negstreak feature be added, as well as a 'since last correct answer' thingy?
Also, due to the non-powermarkedness of some sets, power-neg ratio is pretty useless, is there any way that could change? I seem to remember someone suggesting adding powers, though that would be too much work, and might jeopardize the original writer's intentions.
Last edited by Emil Nolde on Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by Sniper, No Sniping! » Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:55 am

perlnerd666 wrote:I feel a lot less comfortable doing anything online under my real name, unless I'm in some "friends-only" space like Google+ or Facebook, but that's totally personal and I could be the only one.
I know this is beside the point and all, but you already use this forum with your "real name" publicly displayed. That's apart of the benefit of signature enforcement, it encourages healthier and more civil discussion because this forum is an extension of the social interaction of quiz bowl in person. If I'm understanding correctly what has been previously said regarding real name usage for ProtoBowl, it's main purpose would be to inspire and maintain civility and hopefully see an elimination in the hateful, racist, and misogynistic comments that already plague ProtoBowl.
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by Emil Nolde » Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:14 am

Well, I don't really think we should be aiming to make pb an extension of this site. As it stands, I think that real names should probably only be divulged with consent. Civility doesn't require that we tell anyone who cares our name. Besides, it's not that hard to find out.
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by kevink » Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:59 pm

thyringe_supine wrote: Is there any way to make the app enforce these rules, or would it have to be monitored?
At the most basic level, yes, but for other kinds of rules, no. You can't enforce etiquette programmatically.
perlnerd666 wrote: I like the idea of a reprimand button; I've also been working heavily with message (for which I have called various synonyms—all polite—for policepeople, and I'm ok with that).
I think it's going to be in the next version then.
thyringe_supine wrote:The team-based room could happen. Oh, also, from statistics, can you tell how often people have been playing with teams? Like I said earlier, that's a really good feature and should get some more usage.
I don't have any real statistics on the use of the team feature, but from glancing over the secret ninja dashboard a few times, I don't think it's used that much.
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by Kilroy Was Here » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:08 am

I think one possible move that could make admins more effective is to give moderators the ability place quarantines on the lobby and not let anyone in for a certain amount of time.
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by Emil Nolde » Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:06 am

Weighted Companion Cube wrote:I think one possible move that could make admins more effective is to give moderators the ability place quarantines on the lobby and not let anyone in for a certain amount of time.
What exactly would this accomplish, though? I guess it's decent for room population control, though I don't think that's very often a big problem. Perhaps if Protobowl could be used for any sort of formal competition, that could be used to ensure how many people see the questions, but I think there's not that much else that I could see that producing except for lots of annoyed users. What exactly would be the reason?

Also, I've noticed that resetting your score resets your streak as well. I guess that's intentional right?
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by Kilroy Was Here » Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:10 am

thyringe_supine wrote:
Weighted Companion Cube wrote:I think one possible move that could make admins more effective is to give moderators the ability place quarantines on the lobby and not let anyone in for a certain amount of time.
What exactly would this accomplish, though? I guess it's decent for room population control, though I don't think that's very often a big problem. Perhaps if Protobowl could be used for any sort of formal competition, that could be used to ensure how many people see the questions, but I think there's not that much else that I could see that producing except for lots of annoyed users. What exactly would be the reason?

Also, I've noticed that resetting your score resets your streak as well. I guess that's intentional right?
Because there are times when everyone trying to come in is trying to bypass IP bans that were placed on them (this is usually late at night), so just not letting access into the room would be useful.
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by Emil Nolde » Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:08 am

Oh. I've never actually experienced that at night, but it makes sense, I suppose. I don't know, though, that the same thing couldn't be accomplished without too much difficulty with good policing, and like I said, a blanket moratorium would probably serve to aggravate legit people.
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by kevink » Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:18 pm

thyringe_supine wrote: Also, I've noticed that resetting your score resets your streak as well. I guess that's intentional right?
Well, it's not exactly unintentional, but should it be the other way?
Weighted Companion Cube wrote:I think one possible move that could make admins more effective is to give moderators the ability place quarantines on the lobby and not let anyone in for a certain amount of time.
I'm not sure that's such a great idea.
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by Emil Nolde » Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:58 pm

kevink wrote:
thyringe_supine wrote: Also, I've noticed that resetting your score resets your streak as well. I guess that's intentional right?
Well, it's not exactly unintentional, but should it be the other way?
Weighted Companion Cube wrote:I think one possible move that could make admins more effective is to give moderators the ability place quarantines on the lobby and not let anyone in for a certain amount of time.
I'm not sure that's such a great idea.
Confusing double negative is confusing.
Most of the time the only way I see the reset feature used is when someone negstorms and wants to bring their score out of the negatives, or when someone hasn't been scoring a lot and wants a fresh start. I forget, does resetting bring your 'Seen' to 0 as well? If it does, I'm not sure it's a really good thing, because it pretty much allows you to willfully manipulate your PPTU, not to mention your power-neg ratio. At this point, of course, though, ProtoBowl stats are relatively meaningless, so I suppose it isn't like the ability to abuse them a little bit is really that important.

Anyway, I think it would be a good thing to keep track of neg and power streaks as well as plain ol' tossups. The latter only says "Well, I buzzed with the correct answer to the question before anyone else did, and I did it multiple times in a row. Granted, my opponents are a bonobo and a bendy straw, but still that's okay." TU streaks are usually completely subject to the strength of your competition. Power streaks, however, say that "Even though my opponents are a bonobo and a bendy straw, you know I'm pretty legit, because the person who created the question says that where I buzzed would probably beat any competition, regardless of who that competition is." See the difference? The main purpose of keeping track of neg streaks is really only to tell you how reckless you're being, so you can respond accordingly. Perhaps persistent negging could also result in tribunals, as such behavior is often consistent with trolls. Also, at least when the filter is made to be more intelligent, any tripping of the profanity filter in answers or usernames should result in an autokick. If a person swears in those spaces, then they are obviously trying to draw attention to it and themselves, rather than trying to vent honest frustration.

EDIT: For clarity
Last edited by Emil Nolde on Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by vinteuil » Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:58 pm

thyringe_supine wrote:At this point, of course, though, ProtoBowl stats are relatively meaningless, so I suppose it isn't like the ability to abuse them a little bit isn't really that important.
You meant to say that meaningless statistics are important?

In fact, I really don't see why these statistics are really a matter of concern to begin with—this is a tool for studying, I thought? If you want to see how well you're doing, go to a tournament.
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by Emil Nolde » Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:23 pm

perlnerd666 wrote:
thyringe_supine wrote:At this point, of course, though, ProtoBowl stats are relatively meaningless, so I suppose it isn't like the ability to abuse them a little bit isn't really that important.
You meant to say that meaningless statistics are important?

In fact, I really don't see why these statistics are really a matter of concern to begin with—this is a tool for studying, I thought? If you want to see how well you're doing, go to a tournament.
Hey, not everyone always can.
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by The Bold Ideas of Bernie Sanders (I-VT) » Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:27 pm

Tokyo Sex Whale wrote:integrate Protobowl with Facebook
Typhon and Echidna wrote:Hey, that's our thing.
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by Emil Nolde » Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:29 pm

Okay, the moderation system doesn't really work effectively. While I've been on with privileges, I've only warned legitimate users to refrain from cussing. What if crossing a certain score threshold automatically gave you the ability to kick other users? Or, at the very least protect them from tribunals.
What would be most effective, I think, would be associating score with legitimacy; that is, the higher your score, the more influence you have in tribunal voting, and the greater the percentage of votes must be for you to be kicked. The less your score, the easier it is for you to be kicked (say, maybe just one vote). Perhaps users with zero or less points would be disallowed from starting or voting on tribunals (mostly to keep trolls from easily banning legitimate users who haven't scored). Maybe even users with zero points have chat disabled.

Really, I'm just convinced that the app must give users whatever privileges automatically, as it is it is currently really just lumbering and inefficient. Deigning permanent capabilities to specific users indefinitely just isn't working with the highly transitory, anonymous nature of protobowl.
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by Adventure Temple Trail » Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:31 pm

thyringe_supine wrote:Okay, the moderation system doesn't really work effectively. While I've been on with privileges, I've only warned legitimate users to refrain from cussing. What if crossing a certain score threshold automatically gave you the ability to kick other users? Or, at the very least protect them from tribunals.
What would be most effective, I think, would be associating score with legitimacy; that is, the higher your score, the more influence you have in tribunal voting, and the greater the percentage of votes must be for you to be kicked. The less your score, the easier it is for you to be kicked (say, maybe just one vote). Perhaps users with zero or less points would be disallowed from starting or voting on tribunals (mostly to keep trolls from easily banning legitimate users who haven't scored). Maybe even users with zero points have chat disabled.
Isn't this thinking about the problem exactly backwards? I can easily envision a scenario where a cheater just keeps racking up points until they can ban anyone who tries to get them to stop.
thyringe_supine wrote:Really, I'm just convinced that the app must give users whatever privileges automatically, as it is it is currently really just lumbering and inefficient. Deigning permanent capabilities to specific users indefinitely just isn't working with the highly transitory, anonymous nature of protobowl.
This seems like an argument for making users be less anonymous and more permanent.
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by Mewto55555 » Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:54 pm

Tokyo Sex Whale wrote:One thing you can do instead of creating endless ban filters is to integrate Protobowl with Facebook, so that people use their real names in the lobby and in games. That way, you remove their cover of anonymity and make them accountable for disgusting things that they say.
What about integrating this with HSQB accounts (I have no idea if this is possible or not)? This has the side-benefit of exposing more people to the forums (that's a benefit, right?) and forcing people to divulge at least their real name and school affiliation.
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by vinteuil » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:16 pm

Mewto55555 wrote:
Tokyo Sex Whale wrote:One thing you can do instead of creating endless ban filters is to integrate Protobowl with Facebook, so that people use their real names in the lobby and in games. That way, you remove their cover of anonymity and make them accountable for disgusting things that they say.
What about integrating this with HSQB accounts (I have no idea if this is possible or not)? This has the side-benefit of exposing more people to the forums (that's a benefit, right?) and forcing people to divulge at least their real name and school affiliation.
Seconded; I'm getting frustrated by the fact that moderation isn't automatic (and I get "logged out" or whatever), so the system is innefficient. As long as usernames/passwords are in the offing, integration with HSQB would make loads of sense.
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by Emil Nolde » Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:58 am

RyuAqua wrote:
thyringe_supine wrote:Okay, the moderation system doesn't really work effectively. While I've been on with privileges, I've only warned legitimate users to refrain from cussing. What if crossing a certain score threshold automatically gave you the ability to kick other users? Or, at the very least protect them from tribunals.
What would be most effective, I think, would be associating score with legitimacy; that is, the higher your score, the more influence you have in tribunal voting, and the greater the percentage of votes must be for you to be kicked. The less your score, the easier it is for you to be kicked (say, maybe just one vote). Perhaps users with zero or less points would be disallowed from starting or voting on tribunals (mostly to keep trolls from easily banning legitimate users who haven't scored). Maybe even users with zero points have chat disabled.
Isn't this thinking about the problem exactly backwards? I can easily envision a scenario where a cheater just keeps racking up points until they can ban anyone who tries to get them to stop.
thyringe_supine wrote:Really, I'm just convinced that the app must give users whatever privileges automatically, as it is it is currently really just lumbering and inefficient. Deigning permanent capabilities to specific users indefinitely just isn't working with the highly transitory, anonymous nature of protobowl.
This seems like an argument for making users be less anonymous and more permanent.
I haven't seen people abuse web inspector in a while. I don't even know for sure if that loophole still exists. Aside from those few cases, I would say that score is probably the best way to judge a user's intentions. What really needs to be curbed is the chat-spamming, lag-creating 'troll squad' that has appeared in recent days.

And I think that the anonymity is pretty fun most of the time. Besides, I don't think Pb and this site should be brought any closer together than they already are, and certainly not without approval from administrators here, which I'm not certain would be forthcoming.

Besides, I think the recent changes will make things easier. One question I still have is exactly what the reprimand function does.

EDIT(~18.30): Chat is disabled, why?
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by samus149 » Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:00 pm

I love Protobowl (it's boosted my PPG by at least 50 since I started this year), but is there any intention of adding new questions? There are many housewritten packets out there not uploaded on the website (IMSANITY, LIST, etc.), and while it seems unlikely, I have gone through the 17k+ questions multiple times.
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by i never see pigeons in wheeling » Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:42 pm

samus149 wrote:I love Protobowl (it's boosted my PPG by at least 50 since I started this year), but is there any intention of adding new questions? There are many housewritten packets out there not uploaded on the website (IMSANITY, LIST, etc.), and while it seems unlikely, I have gone through the 17k+ questions multiple times.
Time spent reading those tossups multiple times is time not spent reading books and learning things.
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by samus149 » Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:49 pm

List of Fighting Spirit characters wrote:Time spent reading those tossups multiple times is time not spent reading books and learning things.
True, but for me, a science specialist, getting a lit background is easier to accomplish with questions, rather than reading the books themselves. I know ignoring deep knowledge is usually frowned upon in the quizbowl world, but it's been working for me so far.
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by dtaylor4 » Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:59 pm

samus149 wrote:True, but for me, a science specialist, getting a lit background is easier to accomplish with questions, rather than reading the books themselves. I know ignoring deep knowledge is usually frowned upon in the quizbowl world, but it's been working for me so far.
Read short poems and short stories.

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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by samus149 » Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:54 am

Right, so about adding new sets...
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by vestben » Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:02 am

samus149 wrote:Right, so about adding new sets...
To your initial question, yes, there is an intention of adding new sets. A way for users to add questions to the database (under a different type i.e. /housewrites/room) might be the best approach to this as it is very time consuming for me to do.
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by Emil Nolde » Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:33 am

dtaylor4 wrote:
samus149 wrote:True, but for me, a science specialist, getting a lit background is easier to accomplish with questions, rather than reading the books themselves. I know ignoring deep knowledge is usually frowned upon in the quizbowl world, but it's been working for me so far.
Read short poems and short stories.
Thread derailment, but yes, getting a moderately good and mostly legitimate literature background is more easy than most people think. I could probably make a list of around 30 poems and short stories that could probably get you around 30 percent of literature questions, though of course, that depends on your competition. Reading more is always better.

Anyway, back to what we're actually supposed to be discussing, it would seem that chat gets disabled when a new version of the application is released? Is that intentional? Also, one small change I think that wouldn't be too hard would be a 'hide category' checkbox, like QBDB has. I'm getting a little tired of people frauding Margaret Mead six words through the question, and this could help alleviate that.

EDIT: I see there is now 'distraction-free' mode. That's cool.
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by kevink » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:27 pm

thyringe_supine wrote: EDIT: I see there is now 'distraction-free' mode. That's cool.
Also, little thing, you can click on the timer widget to collapse it.
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by Emil Nolde » Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:02 am

Does collapsing the timer affect the topic box if the room has one, and are you planning on implementing those, because it would be a lot easier for determining what is and is not against the rules?
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by vestben » Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:09 pm

thyringe_supine wrote:Does collapsing the timer affect the topic box if the room has one, and are you planning on implementing those, because it would be a lot easier for determining what is and is not against the rules?
The topic box is currently implemented, we just have yet to actually set anything in them. Regardless, no, everything would just shift up as it currently does.
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by Emil Nolde » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:47 am

Moderator application will be cool, it's getting tiring to answer the question,"Where can I get one of those green stars?"
Need anybody who already is okay complete it?
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I also love this. Quizbowl and therapy in one neatly wrapped package? I do believe I feel a little faint.

EDIT: On the flipside of what people were saying earlier, what if someone claims to be a certain person, but obviously isn't? Should they be kicked to protect someone's reputation?
Also, a Protobowl moderator usergroup would be useful. This thread is getting seriously bloated.
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by kevink » Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:42 pm

thyringe_supine wrote:On the flipside of what people were saying earlier, what if someone claims to be a certain person, but obviously isn't? Should they be kicked to protect someone's reputation?
It's kind of hard to exactly know when someone's being an imposter.

The first round of moderator acceptances is over, but we might still look for more new spots.
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by Emil Nolde » Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:57 pm

kevink wrote:
thyringe_supine wrote:On the flipside of what people were saying earlier, what if someone claims to be a certain person, but obviously isn't? Should they be kicked to protect someone's reputation?
It's kind of hard to exactly know when someone's being an imposter.

The first round of moderator acceptances is over, but we might still look for more new spots.
Hence the 'obviously'. When someone claims to be an eminent quizbowl personage, one who is well known and very skilled, it's very easy to distinguish if the truth is being told.
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by Southern Double-collared Sunbirb » Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:51 pm

A few things.

1. No linking to facebook. Please. Just no. I'm a conscientious objector to it.

2. Real name policies are a Bad Thing. For a number of reasons. Although it's not as severe as elsewhere (quizbowlers mostly know each other IRL), it's still forcing people to out themselves. The whole "anonymity means obnoxiousness" is a myth. Think persistent pseudonymy instead.

3. There are way way too many bigots. Slurs get tossed around like nothing. I can't think of a way to stop that (without changing the sexist, homophobic, and other problematic conceptions of quizbowlers in general, which won't be done in a day.) Any suggestions?

4. Impersonators, once confirmed, should be immediately banned.
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by Mewto55555 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:33 pm

Ydiwa wrote:
3. There are way way too many bigots. Slurs get tossed around like nothing. I can't think of a way to stop that. Any suggestions?

Ydiwa wrote: Real name policies
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by vinteuil » Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:37 pm

Ydiwa wrote: 3. There are way way too many bigots. Slurs get tossed around like nothing. I can't think of a way to stop that (without changing the sexist, homophobic, and other problematic conceptions of quizbowlers in general, which won't be done in a day.) Any suggestions?

4. Impersonators, once confirmed, should be immediately banned.
Currently, I'm relying on teammates to let me know if a mod is needed to prevent this; I would be happy to volunteer my contact information for some sort of more public notification system.
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by Southern Double-collared Sunbirb » Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:45 pm

From the limited size of things I saw today, it seems as if one of the mods was saying problematic things too. So yeah, it ain't working too well.
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by Southern Double-collared Sunbirb » Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:56 pm

Max:

I'm sorry, but people have said the most vile bigoted comments under their Real Names (or with people fully knowing them). Dennis Markuze anyone?

Less-privileged people may face real-world consequences for things they may say to speak about against person/system with more power (e.g. stalking, religious bigotry). Pseudonymity thus protects people.
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by vinteuil » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:21 am

Ydiwa wrote:From the limited size of things I saw today, it seems as if one of the mods was saying problematic things too. So yeah, it ain't working too well.
You should probably report them to Kevin or Ben (also, why be squeamish about naming usernames here?)—this is horrifying.
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by Emil Nolde » Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:21 pm

As I've more or less said, real name policies would be problematic to enforce, and would at least for this guy spoil quite a bit of the enjoyment in the first place. Plus, such a rule would seem to not fit in very well at all with Kevin and Ben's management style, and so I doubt they will implement it. This isn't a democracy, guys.
perlnerd666 wrote:also, why be squeamish about naming usernames here?
Last week, for some general guidelines on Protobowl discussion, I wrote:1. Don't talk about petty stuff. This isn't some place for you to put out APBs on people. Don't sweat the small stuff. In other words, posts analogous to "Someone please help there's this guy who's being really mean!" are something that is not needed. Distracting people from doing actual productive work on Protobowl or elsewhere is not a cool thing. We need to try to come up with long term fixes for issues, instead of attending to things as they happen. Responding to any time someone is upset or anything is going to get very inefficient and very annoying very quickly.

2. Don't talk about specific people unless they are participating in the discussion. First of all, it kind of makes you look like a jerk when you go out of your way to badmouth people. Second, this also is going to do very little to advance the app overall.
Basically, I wrote the second rule because if you start mentioning specific users, and even worse, if you go beyond just observing and reporting, to anything opinionated like "such-and-such is a horrible person." it just makes you look like you just downed a forty-four ounce cup of Hatorade, and if anything, is probably going to build sympathy for "DTTM"-ism and perhaps ironically for the very user you were denouncing.
perlnerd666 wrote:
Ydiwa wrote: 3. There are way way too many bigots. Slurs get tossed around like nothing. I can't think of a way to stop that (without changing the sexist, homophobic, and other problematic conceptions of quizbowlers in general, which won't be done in a day.) Any suggestions?

4. Impersonators, once confirmed, should be immediately banned.
Currently, I'm relying on teammates to let me know if a mod is needed to prevent this; I would be happy to volunteer my contact information for some sort of more public notification system.
I'm not exactly sure what you're addressing here, I guess it's the impersonation? However, I don't think the system you propose is really feasible, or even necessary. I have seldom witnessed any users sincerely trying to convince anyone else that he or she is or is not any person in real life. When the names of real people have been invoked it's usually not in any sort of a serious manner, and certainly I think no attempts at actual defamation (or at least attempts that experience any success) through Protobowl have occurred. If that changes, then simple bans probably aren't going to cut it.
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by Auks Ran Ova » Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:53 pm

thyringe_supine wrote:real name policies would [...] spoil quite a bit of the enjoyment in the first place
How?
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by Emil Nolde » Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:25 pm

I feel that way because, especially when placed into context with this site's rather strictly enforced policy, I find one enjoyable aspect of Protobowl to be that it isn't tied so directly to my real self. That's not because I've done anything I'm ashamed of on Protobowl, but just because . . . secrets are fun!

Besides, posting real names would risk privacy at least to a certain degree, and (while of course I'm guessing here) might hypothetically create some issues with COPPA and middle school players, which could get extraordinarily ugly.
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by vinteuil » Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:01 am

Unrelated: could I request that moderators stop making the question-reading speed insanely fast?
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Re: ProtoBowl

Post by Lofty Volaterrae » Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:49 am

As a Moderator and player from the very early days of Protobowl (September 2012) I have a few general comments about its functionality.

1. I believe that moderators do not have enough powers regarding trolls and offensive language. Watching hundreds of hours of people buzzing in with troll offensive answers while I was trying to effectively use the service was incredibly annoying. When I became a moderator, I found that in general, I had little power to ban people still if they were trolling, (as the process for banning for offensive language gets increasingly effective, I have noticed it less and less) So I propose the following.
1. Some form of account system be implemented, with a creation system slightly more time consuming than the average troll might be willing to put in. This would allow for account banning, which would affect a user across multiple computers, and stop the effects of IP proxies that I have seen be used to break IP bans on trolls in /lobby. This would also make it easier to recognize individuals in the rooms, because they could have some sort of "nick-name" or profile image. This could also be linked into hsquizbowl.org accounts, which have semi-rigorous creation process (I just did one) and already have account info and stuff that could be tied in (there is the problem with individual signatures, but i am sure that could be worked out in some way, to increase anonymity.) Next,
2. Moderators be chosen by participation in the rooms, not by a anonymous form sent in via the side bar which I am sure at this point has been abused by trolls. This means that instead of having the 25 or so moderators that I have seen on /lobby in the last two weeks, only a few people who had developed personal relationships with the secret ninja (I had something like this going back in October-November 2012) would be given powers, and they would be people who had shown their maturity on the service. The tie-in with hsquizbowl.org would be more beneficial for this, as accounts could also be judged on how active the players are on this forum which has a much more permanent record of activity and popularity.
3. Moderators be given more direct power to ban and regulate players on the forums. Due to the rise of trolling instead of racism that I have seen recently, it would be nice to at least have the activity feature (where a ban tribunal was created if a player was particularly excessively active (namely spam trolling and joining/leaving trolling)). I would like to have the power to ban any person who I deem to be purposefully trolling or being offensive in a round-about manner, even if they aren't being racially offensive or otherwise. This would work well with an account system, because it could be easily tied to each account what that player had done in the past (what reprimands they had received etc.). And finally,
4. Bans should not be limited to IP bans or banishment to /b. There should be a system ranging from when players are silenced for being rude, to having account banishment/deletion for going beyond the bounds in an attempt to defame others who are attempting to use the service. This would work well with an account system similarly to #3.

Finally, I should stress that all these suggestions are in the best interests of fostering new talent and interest within smaller communities of Quizbowl who would benefit greatly from having a service like ProtoBowl where they could be treated nicely and shown by other players how to play, how to study etc. and not be driven off by the "wilder" parts of the Quizbowlverse. I have great interest in this as I have experienced a great increase in my general knowledge not to mention have been able to study NAQT specialty subjects more easily, and I think that in the spirit of pyramidal style QB, the general knowledge that can be gained for less skilled teams by practicing on protobowl would be invaluable to create a strong foundation for future teams.

Also, yes. I am that "George Davies"
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