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Question about WUStl Live

Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:55 am
by Joshua Rutsky
Does anyone know if the output reports from WUStl's tourney program are of comparable value to those produced by SQBS? I'm considering using the program for our tournament and am interested in knowing if I'd need to do everything twice.

Re: Question about WUStl Live

Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:07 pm
by Mewto55555
The standings come out looking like this, so what it will give you is team rankings with W-L and ppg, individual results, and the scoresheet for every game. The thing that looks like PPB it outputs is some other metric, so you might want to ignore that if you decide to use WUStL.

Re: Question about WUStl Live

Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:47 pm
by Important Bird Area
Please note that NAQT's results database is not currently set up to accept results in WUSTL Live format, so it might be easier to use SQBS from the beginning rather than having to keep an additional set of stats.

Re: Question about WUStl Live

Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:45 am
by Joshua Rutsky
I'm really kind of torn on this. My goal is to run the most efficient tournament possible, of course. Right now, what we do is have individuals on computers in each game room with Jon Pinyan's very good NAQT-style scoresheet with self-check that was posted here at viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6742#p202022 years ago. I have 10 copies of the sheet in a folder on the desktop, each labeled Round 1, Round 2, etc. The scorekeeper has to enter the player names and the team names each match, then at the end of the match must remember to print the file to our networked printer, which is in the tourney control room, and I then enter the stats by hand into SQBS. This works much more efficiently than having runners, and removes issues with handwriting and math errors, but requires me to 1) log into all the computers in advance so the scorekeepers have access and each room has its own folder, 2) make sure the scorekeepers understand how to use the scoresheet and remember to print it correctly and on time, and 3) re-enter all the information as it comes in to keep stats available, resulting in a delay at the end of the tournament for seeding purposes that cannot generally be avoided. Is the delay short? Yes. We're usually waiting on the results of one or two games that will really matter in order to do the placements, and often we can wait until the start of playoffs to finish the final regular round input. Even so, WUStl is appealing in that I can train my young players during practice to scorekeep, the interface is simple, and I don't need to log in to 30 computers the night before so we are ready. That may be worth having to re-enter results into SQBS after the event to produce NAQT and web-friendly stats.

I saw someone wrote some code to extract scores from SQBS files. As far as I'm concerned, coding is largely tinkering with black magic, but for you brilliant techies and coders, how hard would it be to write code to extract the results from a WUStl stat page into something that could be imported to SQBS or was NAQT friendly? Jeff, what formats besides SQBS are NAQT-friendly?

Re: Question about WUStl Live

Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:22 pm
by The Friar
What's labeled BCF (bonus conversion for) in WUStL! should be quite exactly the same thing as PPB as reported in other places.

I never really wrote up any help or documentation for this, which is kind of an oversight on my part. After I defend my dissertation (which will actually be pretty soon) I ought to do that.

At several people's request, I looked into making this output something that the database could load, but I've decided every time against investing the time in it. Given the current features of the database, it's just not clear what users would gain from myself or some other programmer going to all that trouble that they wouldn't gain from just linking to the stats on WUStL! itself from the tournament's database page. To take advantage of future database features, in contrast, would probably require learning how to write not just SQBS-format HTML reports but actual SQBS stat files, which follow a decidedly opaque format.

Lots of users (well, to the extent WUStL! has lots of users) do indeed keep score live with WUStL! and then reenter game records from WUStL! in SQBS when it's more convenient to do so. If you really need SQBS files for something, I recommend doing so at least for now.

Re: Question about WUStl Live

Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:37 pm
by jonah
Joshua Rutsky wrote:Jeff, what formats besides SQBS are NAQT-friendly?
The only formats from which we can currently import full stats (as opposed to just game scores, just records, or just final standings) are SQBS and Tournament Director.

Re: Question about WUStl Live

Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:18 pm
by The Friar
jonah wrote:
Joshua Rutsky wrote:Jeff, what formats besides SQBS are NAQT-friendly?
The only formats from which we can currently import full stats (as opposed to just game scores, just records, or just final standings) are SQBS and Tournament Director.
Jonah and HSQB database operators: If you have interest in writing your own code to import from WUStL!, I could easily provide you a complete copy of WUStL!'s existing source to get you started.

Re: Question about WUStl Live

Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:21 pm
by jonah
The Friar wrote:
jonah wrote:
Joshua Rutsky wrote:Jeff, what formats besides SQBS are NAQT-friendly?
The only formats from which we can currently import full stats (as opposed to just game scores, just records, or just final standings) are SQBS and Tournament Director.
Jonah and HSQB database operators: If you have interest in writing your own code to import from WUStL!, I could easily provide you a complete copy of WUStL!'s existing source to get you started.
I'll discuss this with the rest of NAQT's tech team; my guess is that it will be a pretty low priority unless WUStL! becomes very popular. (I realize this may be somewhat of a chicken-and-egg problem, inasmuch as NAQT failing to support WUStL! may inhibit the latter's growth.)

Re: Question about WUStl Live

Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:41 pm
by The Friar
jonah wrote:
The Friar wrote:
jonah wrote:
Joshua Rutsky wrote:Jeff, what formats besides SQBS are NAQT-friendly?
The only formats from which we can currently import full stats (as opposed to just game scores, just records, or just final standings) are SQBS and Tournament Director.
Jonah and HSQB database operators: If you have interest in writing your own code to import from WUStL!, I could easily provide you a complete copy of WUStL!'s existing source to get you started.
I'll discuss this with the rest of NAQT's tech team; my guess is that it will be a pretty low priority unless WUStL! becomes very popular. (I realize this may be somewhat of a chicken-and-egg problem, inasmuch as NAQT failing to support WUStL! may inhibit the latter's growth.)
Sounds good to me. One of these years I will indeed start doing a better job of selling WUStL! by showing it off to tournament directors myself. Till then it will probably just not get very big no matter what.

Re: Question about WUStl Live

Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:49 pm
by cdcarter
The Friar wrote:
jonah wrote:
The Friar wrote:
jonah wrote:
Joshua Rutsky wrote:Jeff, what formats besides SQBS are NAQT-friendly?
The only formats from which we can currently import full stats (as opposed to just game scores, just records, or just final standings) are SQBS and Tournament Director.
Jonah and HSQB database operators: If you have interest in writing your own code to import from WUStL!, I could easily provide you a complete copy of WUStL!'s existing source to get you started.
I'll discuss this with the rest of NAQT's tech team; my guess is that it will be a pretty low priority unless WUStL! becomes very popular. (I realize this may be somewhat of a chicken-and-egg problem, inasmuch as NAQT failing to support WUStL! may inhibit the latter's growth.)
Sounds good to me. One of these years I will indeed start doing a better job of selling WUStL! by showing it off to tournament directors myself. Till then it will probably just not get very big no matter what.
Gordon, I'd be happy to help make WUStL! support SQBS output, either by direct export or though an intermediary. I've been working on prettying up stat output (see http://tournakit.neocities.org/standings.html) and generally improving stat data interchange. I'd love to help make WUStL! support Tournakit (see my other thread) and SQBS output is part and parcel with that (and currently working super well for non-bracketed tournaments!) Email me at cdcarter at gmail dot com.

NAQT, I shot y'all an email too about all this, but if you have any questions/suggestions/hopes email me as well!

Re: Question about WUStl Live

Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:10 pm
by cdcarter
As an update, looking around the WUStL! generated stats, it looks like it wouldn't be too difficult to get a compliant SQBS file out automatically, from an external processing standpoint. It would likely be even easier if Gordon and I could collaborate.

It certainly sounds like you'd save yourself a lot of work, even if you had to re-enter SQBS later.

Re: Question about WUStl Live

Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 8:36 pm
by The Friar
As announced in http://www.hsquizbowl.org/forums/viewto ... 23&t=16757 SQBS-format output is now implemented.

WUStL! has moved to http://www.wustlqb.info for the foreseeable future.