Illinois '10 - '11

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Coach G
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Coach G » Sun Jan 09, 2011 8:25 pm

I would like to thank the moderators who read at the Knights' Challenge yesterday - Tom Egan, Brad Fischer, Kristin Strey, David Riley, Dayne Rogers, Danielle Long, Tyler Kerr, Paul Gutowski, and Kyle Anderson, as well as current varsity players Abid Haseeb, Samantha George, Saad Sheikh, Alex Cooper, Danielle Henson, and Jacob Balogh. Thanks also to our statisticians, and the parents and NHS members who helped as scorekeepers and with check-in. For those interested in the results, here they are:
Varsity Novice Division (8 teams):
1st Auburn, 2nd Loyola A, 3rd Belvidere North
All Tournament Team - Dylan Minarik of Belvidere North - 118 ppg, Morgan Venkus of Loyola A - 60 ppg, Mike Kikta of Auburn - 60 ppg, and Zach Hayes of Loyola B - 42 ppg
Frosh-Soph Division (20 teams):
1st - Stevenson, 2nd - Wheaton North A, 3rd - Boylan, 4th - Moline, Consolation - Auburn
I will post the ATT for that division later - I don't have the list at home.
The novice varsity teams played 10 rounds - 7 round robin, then 3 in brackets (top four, and bottom four). At the end of play, Auburn, Loyola A, and Belvidere North all had 8-2 records. We did not have an 11th set of questions for a tiebreaker round, so, as announced earlier, we broke the tie by PPG. Since it was round robin play, I think that was fair. If there had been pool play, and the teams involved had not all played the same other teams, then we would have used PPB.
The frosh-soph division played 8 rounds - 5 of pool play in the morning (four pools of five teams each, with a crossover match for the fifth round); in the afternoon, three more rounds in brackets of 4 teams each, based on morning results. If needed, a ninth round would have been played as a tiebreaker, but Stevenson went 8-0 for the day, so it wasn't needed.
Linda J. Greene
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by kayli » Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:55 pm

dtaylor4 wrote:
Ar$oni$t$ Get All the Girl$ wrote:I know we're supposed to be unbiased towards the major quizbowl set providers and that each format is supposed to have its own merits (may I ask how NAQT's distribution any better than a more ACF style distribution?), but I have to say that NAQT questions are worse than comparable sets from HSAPQ and certain housewrites. The merits of NAQT include their ability to produce a large number of sets for all levels of competition, the ability to attract a large amount of teams, their organizational structure, and professionalism. However, their actual sets suffer from an overabundance of certain subjects (mainly trash), a potential for pretty large variability in distribution between rounds, low clue density, less-than-useful clues (though I'll have to admit this has gone down recently), and poorly thought-through answer selection.
Dude, this post has nothing to do with the topic at hand. HSAPQ and housewrites are not the alternatives being discussed.
Oh sorry, I was not familiar with the alternatives discussed.
Kay, Chicago.

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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Deviant Insider » Sun Jan 09, 2011 10:01 pm

Don't be sorry--be grateful.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Coach G » Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:21 pm

I don't know how to edit a prior post, so I'll just post a correction here. Belvidere North was 7-3, not 8-2 at the Knights' Challenge. Sorry for the error above.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by littleindia70 » Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:32 pm

Geringer wrote:
littleindia70 wrote:My final point... NAQT sets are horrendous.
What would be your alternative to NAQT, might I ask?

Please stay on the forums long enough to give me your opinion after a certain January 22nd tournament. I am interested in your opinion, especially if NAQT isn't your bag.
Sorry I'm new here, but personally I don't really enjoy the inclusion of categories such as math comp which cuts short many other categories and don't really show any knowledge besides basic algebra in most cases. The entire BG lineup is on the math team and quite a few of us don't really like the inclusion of math comp. Secondly odd things such as religion being a part of the literature category are things I see as annoying.
@Jeff Price I'm not really blaming the NAQT set as the reason for the loss, that was just really early buzzing. I was referring to your reaction of surprise toward the "Anti-NAQT revolt" which I am sure is due to some of the reasons I stated that I don't like NAQT. I don't know much about other areas using NAQT, but from what I have seen many teams just throw their pencils on the table once the math comp category is announced.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:43 pm

You know none of the computation complaint you have is NAQT's fault, but rather the fault of the IHSA that mandates their sets have math computations like that? If you had the NAQT IHSA sets replaced by Questions Galore the computation would still be there in full force.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Geringer » Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:38 pm

Does NAQT write their Illinois sets to the IHSA specifications with 3/3 Math or whatever per 16/16 round?
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by jonah » Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:53 pm

Geringer wrote:Does NAQT write their Illinois sets to the IHSA specifications with 3/3 Math or whatever per 16/16 round?
The Illinois-format sets that NAQT produces are written to the IHSA distribution. (Packets are of 20/20 or 30/30 at the buyer's choice; some leagues just use the first 16/16 or so, but by doing so are not necessarily getting the right distribution.) They leave out some of the worst categories (driver's ed and spelling, at least), but all the top-level categories are precisely right and the subcategories are pretty close.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:59 am

I and many others agree with you on the faults of math comp. Do yourself and your teammates a favor and (continue to, I'm sure) talk to your coach and fellow players from other league schools about your complaints and demanding a change in league rules. Regular NAQT questions (such as IS sets) don't have as much computational math (1 tossup and 1 bonus) or you could simply use the existing questions while ignoring the computation. HSAPQ also sells good questions sans computation, in addition to various housewriting efforts (though those usually aren't very translatable into league play due to not enough packets or having already been claimed for a tournament).
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Dominator » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:10 am

Certainly it's not NAQT's fault that there's so much comp math in its IHSA-format sets. I haven't seen any such sets, personally, but my team regularly practices with other NAQT sets, and the comp math in those feels different than that of some other providers, especially purveyors of IHSA-format sets. NAQT tends to have more questions that my players have trouble answering in time even though they know how to do the problem. This effect is exacerbated by the different timing rules, since IHSA players tend to be given a lot more time than necessary to do their comp math. However, the comp math from those other providers also tends to include a lot of routine or uninteresting questions.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by mlaird » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:05 pm

littleindia70 wrote:I was referring to your reaction of surprise toward the "Anti-NAQT revolt" which I am sure is due to some of the reasons I stated that I don't like NAQT. I don't know much about other areas using NAQT, but from what I have seen many teams just throw their pencils on the table once the math comp category is announced.
Yes, while this thought is pretty prevalent among players, I'm sure the actual reason for the Anti-NAQT revolt among those coaches was that "the questions are too long" or "the questions are too hard" or even "the questions don't have enough math".

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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Bonito » Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:14 pm

Dominator wrote:
garciaja wrote:I'm fairly certain that Champaign won't be hosting anything like QUALM-FREE last year unless its absolutely needed. You could roll with that?
For me, one of the best aspects of QUALMFREE was that it was not only composed of teams going to nationals (only 4/11 did go to nats), so I think it was not just a pre-nats warmup. At the same time, the entire month of May is open for whatever tournament you want to run.

Personally, if this is for a scouting project, I'd like to see a low-key tourney in which all proceeds are donated to Matt's Buzzers (or some other suitable charity).
This seems good. Perhaps we could tie in a book drive. I'm not sure we would have as much success as Centennial did in recruiting local teams, but this could work. Is 5/14 a very reasonable date?
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Dominator » Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:11 am

Well, I'm not sure if anyone has seen the Masonic sectional assignments yet, but if not, it's good for a lol.

Highlights:

(1) Stevenson and St. Ignatius, who were the top two at Masonic state last year, have been assigned to the same sectional.
(2) With the notable absence of Rockford Auburn, Belvidere North may be state-bound.
(3) They took two of the top teams (Naperville North and Bradley-Bourbonnais) out of IMSA's sectional, replacing them with west- and south-of-Aurora teams.
(4) Moline and Glenwood, who both made state last year, were assigned the same Sectional.

I'll kick off the prognostication: Belvidere North, IMSA, Wheaton-Warrenville South, Stevenson, Glenwood, Dunlap, Champaign Centennial, Carbondale
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Boeing X-20, Please! » Sun Jan 16, 2011 4:22 pm

Coach G wrote:I would like to thank the moderators who read at the Knights' Challenge yesterday - Tom Egan, Brad Fischer, Kristin Strey, David Riley, Dayne Rogers, Danielle Long, Tyler Kerr, Paul Gutowski, and Kyle Anderson, as well as current varsity players Abid Haseeb, Samantha George, Saad Sheikh, Alex Cooper, Danielle Henson, and Jacob Balogh. Thanks also to our statisticians, and the parents and NHS members who helped as scorekeepers and with check-in. For those interested in the results, here they are:
Varsity Novice Division (8 teams):
1st Auburn, 2nd Loyola A, 3rd Belvidere North
All Tournament Team - Dylan Minarik of Belvidere North - 118 ppg, Morgan Venkus of Loyola A - 60 ppg, Mike Kikta of Auburn - 60 ppg, and Zach Hayes of Loyola B - 42 ppg
Frosh-Soph Division (20 teams):
1st - Stevenson, 2nd - Wheaton North A, 3rd - Boylan, 4th - Moline, Consolation - Auburn
I will post the ATT for that division later - I don't have the list at home.
The novice varsity teams played 10 rounds - 7 round robin, then 3 in brackets (top four, and bottom four). At the end of play, Auburn, Loyola A, and Belvidere North all had 8-2 records. We did not have an 11th set of questions for a tiebreaker round, so, as announced earlier, we broke the tie by PPG. Since it was round robin play, I think that was fair. If there had been pool play, and the teams involved had not all played the same other teams, then we would have used PPB.
The frosh-soph division played 8 rounds - 5 of pool play in the morning (four pools of five teams each, with a crossover match for the fifth round); in the afternoon, three more rounds in brackets of 4 teams each, based on morning results. If needed, a ninth round would have been played as a tiebreaker, but Stevenson went 8-0 for the day, so it wasn't needed.
Is there a SQBS report for this tournament, Ms. Greene?
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by the return of AHAN » Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:04 am

There was an IHSA-format tournament at Fremd High School in Palatine today. Each round was 16/16, and written (with the exception of one round) by Jeff Geringer.
VARSITY
1st.) Buffalo Grove
2nd.) Oak Park Fenwick A
3rd.) Hersey
4th.) Wheaton Warrenville South A
Quarterfinalists: Carmel A, Libertyville, Wheaton North A, Stevenson A

FROSH/SOPH DIVISION
1st.) Stevenson A
2nd.) St. Viator
3rd.) Wheaton North A
4th.) Libertyville
Quarterfinalists: Palatine, Wheaton Warrenville South, Lincoln Way North, Fremd

Curiously, this tournament was power-matched, though the Frosh/Soph division had only 48 teams, which I think created some issues wherein losing at the wrong time (round 4) could send you out of the top 16 (the number that advanced) with no shot at getting a higher card in round 5. I may be off, but it seemed odd to me. The varsity bracket had 64 teams and advanced anyone holding card #32 or better into a single-elimination playoff. I was concerned about our ability to be competitive at the frosh/soph level, given we were missing our top sophomore and a very good freshman player. Nonetheless, they managed to live up to their #11 card, beating every team with a lower card.
The tournament was plagued with some timing issues, which I believe were due in large part to one school arriving nearly a half hour after the scheduled start time due to weather-related traffic problems. I mean, it's unusual for a tournament to go off precisely at the scheduled start time, especially when you have what amounts to 112 teams involved, but I felt really bad for Marian Central Catholic, who I saw coming down the stairs for lunch at 2:30 PM. I asked and they verified that they had just completed round 5. :shock:
The questions were the best I've ever heard at the Fremd tournament. There were zero ambiguous questions and no funky answer lines. Most toss-ups (at least in our frosh/soph matches) got converted. Most that didn't were computational in nature. The only criticism I can level is the periodic typo or grammar error, which occurred more frequently than it should have. But I suppose that's going to happen when only one person is in charge of writing. Geringer might consider getting a 2nd set of eyes to review future sets for typos.

EDIT: I got bad info regarding the frosh/soph bracket. It's fixed now.
Last edited by the return of AHAN on Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Geringer » Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:44 am

I will post at length about the tournament later. I obviously made mistakes, some tossups had bad leadins, and the grammar wasn't the greatest. One of my Donald Taylor questions also had an aside referencing "idiot coaches" that somehow eluded my editing.

But yeah, easy tossups meant high conversion and I feel like most of the teams that played at the Varsity level had at least some chance of converting tossups.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Boeing X-20, Please! » Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:49 am

Geringer wrote:One of my Donald Taylor questions also had an aside referencing "idiot coaches" that somehow eluded my editing.
That's amazing.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by the return of AHAN » Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:07 pm

We interrupt this Illinois high school discussion to bring you the following Illinois middle school update:

IESA Class AA Sectional Assignments can be found here.
While Class A assignment can be found here.
Jeff Price
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by jonah » Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:25 pm

Maine South class AA IHSA sectional seeds:
1. St. Ignatius
2. Oak Park-River Forest
3. Loyola Academy
4. Fenwick
5. New Trier
6. Fenton
7. Glenbard West
8. Maine South

The top four are hosting regionals.

All-Sectional: Andrew Deveau, St. Ignatius; Ben Carbery, Oak Park-River Forest; Andrew Wang, New Trier; Nolan Winkler, Loyola Academy; Blake Tutt, Fenton; Doug Hansel, Maine East (preceding are eligible for All-State); Pat McQuade, Fenwick; Tim McInerney, Glenbard East; Matt Clark, Fenwick; Marcel Youkhna, Loyola; D.J. Germano, New Trier; and Andrew Krajewski, Fenton.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Edward Elric » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:47 pm

Gotta love IHSA regional placement
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Dominator » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:49 pm

jonah wrote: 4. Fenwick
5. New Trier
Was the reason for this "winning a 54-team tournament>being a top ten team in IL obvo" argument?
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Dominator » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:55 pm

Wheaton-Warrenville South sectional:

(1) Wheaton-Warrenville South
(2) IMSA
(3) Metea Valley
(4) Wheaton North
(5) Naperville Central
(6) Wheaton Academy
(7) Geneva
(8) Glenbard North

All-Sectional: Justin Koehler (WWS), Kevin Hu (Naperville Central), Webster Guan (IMSA), Thomas Schubert (WWS), Benjamin Vanderlei (West Chicago), Mark Maskeri (Wheaton North) [the aforementioned are nominated for All-State], Dan Greco (Glenbard North), Collin Waldoch (Geneva), Eric Ordonez (IMSA), Nolan Maloney (IMSA), Marc Askermann (Wheaton Academy), Chet Kumar (Naperville North)
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by jonah » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:21 pm

Dominator wrote:
jonah wrote: 4. Fenwick
5. New Trier
Was the reason for this "winning a 54-team tournament>being a top ten team in IL obvo" argument?
I think everyone just wants to really get Reinstein's goat by making him drive out to Oak Park for a regional that will be lucky to end by 8 pm. It's the only thing that goes later than Fremd!
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Deviant Insider » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:50 pm

Ah, sweet memories!
Reinstein's goat wrote:Last year at IHSA Regionals, my team had no chance to get dinner, we had two coaches there, and we had an easy match for the first round. So, during the 10th bonus, I left to get dinner. I walked down a few hallways, then a block from the school to a fried chicken place, and placed my order. They did not have any french fries ready, so they had to put them in the fryer. Also, the person who took my order put it in the cash register wrong, so he had to get a supervisor to give me the right amount of change. I got my chicken and took it back to the match, where my team was working on the 14th bonus, so they were able to start eating during halftime. Ironically, this was at the same high school that graduated Mike Sorice and Colby Burnett, two moderators who could have completed a full match in that amount of time given the proper format.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by AKKOLADE » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:07 am

Man, those sure are some seeds.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Matt Bardoe » Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:24 am

From the Latin Sectional:

1 Lisle (Sr.)
2 Chicago (Latin)
3 Elmhurst (Timothy Christian)
4 Palos Heights (Chicago Christian)
5 Westmont
6 Kankakee (McNamara)
7 Dwight
8 Coal City

Actually there was a tie for 1, but Lisle is so clearly more deserving than we would be for the top seed.

Hosts will be: Latin, Timothy Christian, Chicago Christian, and Dwight

Anyone interested in moderating please contact me.

I will post All Sectional Tomorrow when I can confirm the schools.

Overall, it was the nicest, most congenial seeding meeting I have been to so far. And we almost got the seeds right, which is more than I can say for the other sectionals so far.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Matt Bardoe » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:09 pm

1 Dzuricsko (Lisle)
2 Kling (Latin)
3 Swartz (Lisle)
4 Wassenaar (Chicago Christian)
5 Matthews (Timothy Christian)
6 Lindemulder (Chicago Christian)
7 Kelleher (Dwight)
8 Kfoury (Lisle)
9 DeGroot (Bishop McNamara)
10 Barre (Timothy Christian)
11 Ordower (Latin)
12 Korthals (Bishop McNamara)

From this you can see which teams came to the seeding meeting.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by David Riley » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:27 pm

Any news yet on the Stevenson area sectional?
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Coach G » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:59 pm

Here are the team seedings from the Rockford Auburn Sectional (* indicates regional hosts):
1. Rockford Auburn*
2. Belvidere North*
3. Maple Park Kaneland*
4. Burlington Central
5. Woodstock Marian Central*
6. Rockford Boylan
7. Rockford Guilford
8. Marengo
All-Sectional Team: Lloyd Sy (Auburn), Dylan Minarik (Belvidere North), Lucas Dawson (Woodstock Marian), Abid Haseeb (Auburn), Saad Sheikh (Auburn), Nick Check (Boylan), Elliot Witt (Kaneland), Dan Reitsch (Guilford), Aaron Craig (Guilford), Alec Krueger (Kaneland), and Dylan Draper (Kaneland). The first six (Sy through Check) will be forwarded for All-State Team consideration.
There were nine coaches at the meeting; one had to leave before the vote on the players.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by the return of AHAN » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:35 pm

David Riley wrote:Any news yet on the Stevenson area sectional?
1. Stevenson
2. Buffalo Grove
3. Fremd
4. Libertyville
From there I can't rightly recall the order of the rest...
5. St. Viator?
6. Carmel?
7. maybe Rolling Meadows here?
8. Cannon Fodder HS....

The big surprise was Hersey not getting a seed.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by David Riley » Mon Feb 14, 2011 12:54 am

Fourteen students participated in the Team Illinois tryout today at the University of Illinois. Team Illinois 2011 is (again):

Ben Carbery, OPRF
Andrew Deveau, St. Ignatius
Kevin Malis, Stevenson
Lloyd Sy, Rockford Auburn

Thanks to everyone who tried out today. If you have any comments about the tryout or its process, please let me know at driley@loy.org.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by BGSO » Mon Feb 14, 2011 1:00 am

Moving Day wrote:
David Riley wrote:Any news yet on the Stevenson area sectional?
1. Stevenson
2. Buffalo Grove
3. Fremd
4. Libertyville
From there I can't rightly recall the order of the rest...
5. St. Viator?
6. Carmel?
7. maybe Rolling Meadows here?
8. Cannon Fodder HS....

The big surprise was Hersey not getting a seed.

How did that happen? Hersey finished very well at Fremd and has "quality" wins over BG and I'm sure others. I guess all this does is screw BG's regional over when Hersey gets put in their sectional as an unseeded team.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by the return of AHAN » Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:08 am

BGSO wrote:
Moving Day wrote:
David Riley wrote:Any news yet on the Stevenson area sectional?
1. Stevenson
2. Buffalo Grove
3. Fremd
4. Libertyville
From there I can't rightly recall the order of the rest...
5. St. Viator?
6. Carmel?
7. maybe Rolling Meadows here?
8. Cannon Fodder HS....

The big surprise was Hersey not getting a seed.

How did that happen? Hersey finished very well at Fremd and has "quality" wins over BG and I'm sure others. I guess all this does is screw BG's regional over when Hersey gets put in their regional as an unseeded team.
FYP... Yeah, perhaps Mr. Palmer can shed some light on why they didn't get seeded. He said he had them on his ballot. I'm guessing that Hersey didn't send a representative to argue for a seed on their behalf, nor did they send a detailed record. That said, when I went to Libertyville last year, people had no problem voting for schools that were not present, but had sent in a sheet with their detailed records on it.
So... out of sight, out of mind, I guess. :neutral:
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Barrington Station Middle School Coach (2013 MSNCT Champions, 2013 & 2017 Illinois Class AA State Champions)
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Dominator » Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:34 pm

Having a representative present and a detailed account of your games is not enough to ensure proper seeding. The WWS coach, Mr. Stankevitz, all but said "IMSA is number one" before voting, but WWS ran away with first place. (Mind you, I take nothing from WWS, they are a good and classy team and are definitely a top team in the sectional.) The problem for our sectional is that no more than two coaches are familiar with all its teams. In our sectional, Mr. Stankevitz was probably the only person who was familiar enough with all the teams that his vote should have mattered (Ms. Kidd from Wheaton North being the possible other one). Everyone else was trying to figure out how to compare Kaneland and Fremd to Ultima and Huskie Bowl.

Ultimately, I don't care how seeding goes, because I am only satisfied with winning the sectional, in which case I need to beat any other team there. In fact, I would have been happy to get, like, a 9 seed, just for the Cinderella story that would follow when we started "upsetting" the very teams that ranked us so low.

For the teams that aren't looking at a sectional title but are looking at a potential regional title, seeding probably only really matters for the top 6. If 1 and 2 are the right teams in either order and 3-6 are the right teams in either order, I'd consider it good enough.

But for the record, I think this whole process is ridiculous. Mr. Stankevitz could have done a better job himself and saved everyone a lot of time. I would be happy to see this work done by small committees of reasonable and knowledgeable people rather than insisting that everyone's voice must be heard.

I actually only went to the meeting so that I could get my players, who have worked so hard this last year, the All-Sectional/All-State recognition they deserved without having to appeal, but I failed to do that as well. I'm not sure I'll go next year.
Dr. Noah Prince

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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by the return of AHAN » Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:04 pm

Huh? No IMSA players are All-Sectional? I'm speechless.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Dominator » Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:56 pm

Moving Day wrote:Huh? No IMSA players are All-Sectional? I'm speechless.
No, I mean, all three of mine made All-Sectional, but two of them were too low to make All-State consideration. Webster (3.21 PP20TUH), our highest scorer, was ranked 3rd, and Nolan (2.86 PP20TUH) and Eric (2.75 PP20TUH) got like 9th and 10th. The voting did not even go based on stats, which is what I would have expected from coaches unfamiliar with our team. Nolan and Eric scored higher than players ranked higher in All-Sectional voting before correcting for level of competition and shadow effect.
Dr. Noah Prince

Normal Community High School (2002)
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Deviant Insider » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:05 am

Feel free to contact Laird if you want somebody considered for All-State who did not finish in the top six in All-Sectional voting. Do it soon if you are going to do it. We generally get a few nominees like that a year. Coaches often rank the top players from each school ahead of the second- and third-best players from each school, even when it is clear that the second-best student from one school is better than the best student from another school. Coaches also tend to favor students they have seen, which is bad if many members from a single conference are a significant number of the voters. As Churchill said, "Democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

Likewise, the options IHSA gives us are seeding by the current system or no seeding at all. If there was no seeding, teams would be assigned to Regionals by geography, which was done for a few years. For about half of the history of the IHSA Scholastic Bowl Tournament, there were no Regionals--teams started at the Sectional level and played single-elimination with random seeding.

Of course, this is still a deeply flawed tournament in many ways. It's difficult to get upset about a team being seeded incorrectly when you see the other problems.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Dominator » Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:53 am

Right. I mean, I don't like the current system, but if anything it's an annoyance as opposed to an affront. But with the IHSA's demand that Scholastic Bowl changes remain cost-neutral, it seems like we could diminish costs quite a bit and get better results by having each sectional determined by a committee of, say, three coaches who know the circuit really well and who are fair and reasonable. Most of the cost saved, though, would be in time and transportation, which is footed by the schools and coaches, so I'm not sure if the IHSA cares about those costs as much.
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Normal Community High School (2002)
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by David Riley » Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:51 am

Well, it depends on how you define "circuit". Many coaches play only their league matches and yet those coaches consider themselves well-informed (I recall the first year of seeding, when several teams from a certain league did not want to seed New Trier, who had a stellar record that year, because "we've never seen them play"). So the question becomes how would the three coaches be decided? History suggests it would not be the people we would want.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by AKKOLADE » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:14 pm

I'd be willing to help with seeding, though I know the use of an evil foreigner would go over like a lead zeppelin.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by jonah » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:24 pm

This proposal is (unfortunately) a bad idea. The IHSA has a strong and consistent aversion to putting competent people in positions that matter with respect to Scholastic Bowl.

Fortunately, I don't think there's any chance whatsoever that, if this were proposed to them, they would accede to it in any way.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Dominator » Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:35 pm

jonah wrote:This proposal is (unfortunately) a bad idea. The IHSA has a strong and consistent aversion to putting competent people in positions that matter with respect to Scholastic Bowl.
Well, I wasn't "proposing" anything. I was simply opining that a better system existed. Obviously the choice of three competent coaches is the key to this idea working, and is where all the difficulty lies (which is why I wouldn't "propose" it). But to David's comment, while conference coaches cannot be trusted to rank circuit teams, circuit teams also cannot be trusted to rank conference teams. For example, how good is Naperville Central this year? I had to rank them on the basis of a limited number of conference matches and a couple less-than-quality tournaments. That doesn't mean they're not a good team, it means that they haven't put themselves in a position to show how good they are. My ranking is nothing more than a guess, just as their ranking of IMSA would be.

Another thing that may have worked would be to have Mr. Stankevitz (or whoever the knowledgeable coach is) pre-rank the teams, and then any coach who felt that there was an error could argue relative positions based on data. Instead, we (the coaches) went around a circle patting ourselves on the back in generalities, rather than discussing the evidence we had at hand in terms of records and statistics, and then we ranked each other privately. This unofficial pre-ranking would be at least a starting-off point, and could be done by any coach who knows the whole sectional well enough.
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Normal Community High School (2002)
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (2004, 2007, 2008)

Illinois Mathematics and Science Academy - Scholastic Bowl coach (2009-2014), assistant coach (2014-2015), well wisher (2015-2016)
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Geringer » Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:02 am

Let us not forget that in two months we'll discuss how little this tournament matters because of factors entirely independent of how teams are seeded. Especially at the regional level, the variation between the quality of the rounds makes a far larger difference in outcome than the seeding itself. If any proposal is to be made, it should concentrate more on how the sectionals themselves are structured (some are rather top-heavy) rather than how they are seeded.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:57 am

Geringer wrote: If any proposal is to be made, it should concentrate more on how the sectionals themselves are structured (some are rather top-heavy) rather than how they are seeded.
Well, I mean, no. IHSA Sectionals are geographically decided and, short of schools adding or dropping individual events, more or less the same throughout each IHSA-sponsored event. You're not going to get the New Trier area sectional of death split up just because the Scholastic Bowl teams there are always good and the teams in the Hinsdale area sectional are always bad, and asking for it would be such a non-starter with the IHSA that they probably would just not listen to the rest of what you had to say.
Brad Fischer
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Coach, Keith Country Day School (2012-16)

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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by David Riley » Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:20 am

I'm with Brad. It's like my experience with the musicians' union: a musician is a musician is a musician, no matter how good or bad they might be.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Matt Bardoe » Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:06 pm

At our meeting this year, I didn't put quite the tight lid on the discussion. We did go around the room and pat ourselves on the back as required by the rules, but then we also had a lively discussion after but before the voting. People asked, have you played so and so? What about so and so's record is that legit? Etc. All of this leads to the possibility of abuse. On the other hand, those teams that are being spoken about are not there. We would ask them if they would show. Overall, I felt that the room was the most collegial I had seen for a while. We have some good new coaches that are trying to do things better, and that helps, particularly the Chicago Christian team which attended WAKE-UP CALL, GHOST and TRIUMVIR tournaments.

I guess the point there is, it is a good idea to let the room talk a little instead of just the one-minute business.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Matt Bardoe » Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:07 pm

The IHSA has a strong and consistent aversion to putting competent people in positions that matter with respect to Scholastic Bowl.
Thanks Jonah!

:grin:
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by jonah » Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:34 pm

Matt Bardoe wrote:
The IHSA has a strong and consistent aversion to putting competent people in positions that matter with respect to Scholastic Bowl.
Thanks Jonah!
And in the few cases where they put someone in who doesn't suck, look how much effect they're allowed to have. :sad:
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Matt Bardoe » Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:09 am

Ah touche.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Geringer » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:58 pm

styxman wrote:
Geringer wrote: If any proposal is to be made, it should concentrate more on how the sectionals themselves are structured (some are rather top-heavy) rather than how they are seeded.
Well, I mean, no. IHSA Sectionals are geographically decided and, short of schools adding or dropping individual events, more or less the same throughout each IHSA-sponsored event. You're not going to get the New Trier area sectional of death split up just because the Scholastic Bowl teams there are always good and the teams in the Hinsdale area sectional are always bad, and asking for it would be such a non-starter with the IHSA that they probably would just not listen to the rest of what you had to say.
My knowledge of how other IHSA-sanctioned state tournaments lead me to believe that this isn't actually the case. There's a cap on how far teams can travel, but to my knowledge the assignments change and aren't determined entirely by geography. Some of that might be a result of teams dropping to lower classes, but the main case I'm referring to is that all of Chicago used to send one basketball team to state and because this wasn't fair to the second-best team (who could be the second best team in the state), they distributed geographically-close Chicago teams to suburban sectionals. Totally doable in the case of the NT sectional.
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Saint Viator '09
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