Illinois '10 - '11

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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Deviant Insider » Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:58 pm

Scholastic Bowl Sectionals are determined the same way sport Sectionals are determined by the IHSA. The old Chicago rule in basketball was an exception--there was a City Tournament, and the winner of that tournament was given one of the eight quarterfinal slots at State in Class AA. They stopped doing that a few years ago, largely because Chicago's School Superintendent at the time, Arne Duncan, wanted more small schools in the city and wanted those schools to have a chance to be in the Class A Tournament.

Even with basketball, Sectional strength is not taken into account when drawing boundaries, and there are always a lot of complaints that they are unfair because some Sectionals are stronger than others. While the unfairness is sometimes justifiable due to geography, there are other times that simple adjustments would make the Sectionals more fair. With Scholastic Bowl this year, for example, it would be easy geographically for St Ignatius and/or OPRF to be in different Sectionals that would spread the wealth more evenly, but that's just not the way it's done, and the issue is a nonstarter with IHSA. Sports are handled the same way.

Supposedly, every three years the IHSA starts from scratch and redraws Sectional maps in a way that evenly distributes the number of teams and keeps things as geographically close as possible. During the other years, the only adjustments are due to teams joining or leaving the tournament or switching classes, and the IHSA tries to keep the same schools together from year to year as much as they can.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by David Riley » Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:12 pm

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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by jonah » Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:16 pm

Any ideas why the Stevenson sectional's regionals include pairings of 1-5, 4-8 and the Maine South sectional's include 3-5, 4-6?
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by David Riley » Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:35 pm

The IHSA works in mysterious ways . . .
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by the return of AHAN » Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:56 pm

Obviously, whoever did the groupings thought New Trier, for example, would appreciate the shorter drive to Loyola, despite them being the higher seed. But St. Viator getting shipped to Stevenson instead of Libertyville? Man, I'd be mad about that. Lake Zurich, OTOH, has to be thrilled to get to play the 4 seed as the #8. I mean, I doubt they beat Libertyville, but at least they're not 300 point underdogs.

On the bright side, the goofy groupings all but assures the availability of my St. Viator staffers for my tournament on 3/12. mirite? :wink:
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Charles Martel » Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:22 pm

The Bloomington regional appears to have 3 seeded teams (3,6, and 8), while the Springfield regional only has the 1 seed?
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by jonah » Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:35 pm

whitesoxfan wrote:The Bloomington regional appears to have 3 seeded teams (3,6, and 8), while the Springfield regional only has the 1 seed?
This one makes a little more sense, since Metamora (8) would have to drive 90+ minutes on a school night to get to Springfield versus less than an hour to get to Bloomington. The Centennial regional (in the Bradley-Bourbonnais sectional) has a similar situation, with the 1, 6, and 8 seeds: Mahomet-Seymour is 15 minutes away from Centennial but 90+ minutes away from Bradley-Bourbonnais.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Dominator » Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:38 pm

The long-awaited Masonic sectional results are coming in. From the Geneva sectional:

(1) IMSA
(2) Geneva
(3) Metea Valley
(4) Waubonsie Valley

One of my players opined a slight improvement in quality of questions from last year, although I can say that at least two of the tossups did not improve, since they were exactly the same as when they were asked at last year's tournament.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by No Electricity Required » Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:59 pm

A central Illinois coach stated in coaches' meeting this morning that the reason the Masons use their weird format is because "it's what the people up in Chicago want."

I'd like to know where that came from.


On the subject of question quality, I didn't notice any improvement over last year, but I did loose all hope after we were told that our answer was wrong because Ammonia's formula is actually HN3.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by sssssssskkkk » Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:04 pm

T287 wrote:A central Illinois coach stated in coaches' meeting this morning that the reason the Masons use their weird format is because "it's what the people up in Chicago want."

I'd like to know where that came from.


On the subject of question quality, I didn't notice any improvement over last year, but I did loose all hope after we were told that our answer was wrong because Ammonia's formula is actually HN3.
Haha, I remember the ammonia one...I really hope you protested that question.

What can you really expect from Masonic? The prize money, however, is excellent for our school's quizbowl funds.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by No Electricity Required » Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:11 pm

sssssssskkkk wrote:
T287 wrote:A central Illinois coach stated in coaches' meeting this morning that the reason the Masons use their weird format is because "it's what the people up in Chicago want."

I'd like to know where that came from.


On the subject of question quality, I didn't notice any improvement over last year, but I did loose all hope after we were told that our answer was wrong because Ammonia's formula is actually HN3.
Haha, I remember the ammonia one...I really hope you protested that question.

What can you really expect from Masonic? The prize money, however, is excellent for our school's quizbowl funds.
We would have most certainly protested, had we not been told beforehand that absolutely no protests would be allowed, period. I don't know what would have went down had our scorekeeper not explained in one match that it was okay we factored the quadratic and didn't put the terms in the same order as what the paper said.

Of course I definitely agree that the prize money is an overwhelmingly positive aspect of masonics, but it'd be nice to actually have some respectable quizbowl involved.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Dominator » Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:27 pm

T287 wrote: On the subject of question quality, I didn't notice any improvement over last year, but I did loose all hope after we were told that our answer was wrong because Ammonia's formula is actually HN3.
Wasn't that Round One?

And Tristan: What's with these tournaments not allowing protests? That literally never happens at tournaments I go to, and conversely I don't go to tournaments like that. But with your Masonic experience and that one "tournament" in Orion last year, am I to understand that this is common practice in some parts of the circuit?

Dale Thayer himself showed up at the opening ceremonies of our sectional and told us that protests were allowed, but that moderators' ultimate decisions were final. To their credit, the moderators at our site handled protests very well and I think everything was resolved correctly. I did have to protest way fewer incorrect answers than last year, but I will admit that HN3 one had me worried early.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by No Electricity Required » Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:07 pm

Dominator wrote:
T287 wrote: On the subject of question quality, I didn't notice any improvement over last year, but I did loose all hope after we were told that our answer was wrong because Ammonia's formula is actually HN3.
Wasn't that Round One?

And Tristan: What's with these tournaments not allowing protests? That literally never happens at tournaments I go to, and conversely I don't go to tournaments like that. But with your Masonic experience and that one "tournament" in Orion last year, am I to understand that this is common practice in some parts of the circuit?

Dale Thayer himself showed up at the opening ceremonies of our sectional and told us that protests were allowed, but that moderators' ultimate decisions were final. To their credit, the moderators at our site handled protests very well and I think everything was resolved correctly. I did have to protest way fewer incorrect answers than last year, but I will admit that HN3 one had me worried early.
This was really the first tournament that I'd been to (other than a tv tournament) that told us from the start that there wouldn't be protests allowed. Other tournaments, like the one you were at last year, in our area that would qualify as mediocre to bad quizbowl tend to be unfriendly to protests, some more than others. Those tournaments that are very friendly to protests are for the most part only those that are held on good questions, which are, however, in the minority. I think this problem is at least in some part due to fact that some people in our area don't like having teams like ours protesting slews of incorrect and alternate answers.

I was also very surprised that our sectional banned protests--I just assumed it was a new Masonic rule--because I remembered being able to protest last year at state (and for the short time I was able to be at sectionals).
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by David Riley » Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:57 pm

This has been a problem in Illinois quiz bowl for years, and generally speaking, you are right: the worse the questions, the more likely protests won't be allowed. I recall many examples where there was a blatanly wrong answser and despite protests from both teams and both coaches, the moderator always replied with "we have to go with what's printed on the page". How they can get away with this in our Internet accessible age is anybody's guess. Hang in there, and try to talk your coach into taking you to better tournaments as much as possible.

And trust me, current Masonic format is NOT what we Chicago area schools want!
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Dominator » Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:16 pm

Does Macomb have any plans to attend HSNCT this year? If so, it'd definitely be great be great to see Macomb at ATROPHY in April. (It would be an opportunity to see first-hand what Chicago area coaches want, but I get the impression that you already know what that is.)
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by David Riley » Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:29 pm

And not just Chicago......Carbondale regularly attends tournaments up here, as do Champaign Centennial and Greenville to a lesser extent.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by No Electricity Required » Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:51 pm

I knew that Chicago schools didn't want the format, that's why I found the idea absurd, as did my coach.

Dr. Prince: We wouldn't be able to make it to HSNCT, but it is looking like we will be able to go to NSC. I'd also love to go to ATROPHY, but I'm not sure if we'll be able to make it; I'll be sure to suggest it though.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by garciaja » Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:14 pm

I don't understand our Sectional seeding pairings. We seeded Central number 8 knowing that they would probably be geographically matched with us, and then we seeded Mahomet higher, at 6 because they said they'd travel. Meanwhile, H-F gets the number 4 seed and NO other seeded teams. What a joke.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by the return of AHAN » Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:35 pm

The Mid-Suburban League All-Star Game was won tonight by the East (Buffalo Grove & Co.), 479-460, over the West (Fremd & Co.). It was my first real look at B.G.'s top player and they were impressive. So, it's no surprise they won the MSL Varsity title over Fremd last week.
BTW, if that score seems funky, it's because it was on a set of 40/40.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:06 pm

The Round 0 games haven't even ended yet and I'm already in shock at a result. Durand, coached by a friend and former HS teammate of mine, forfeited their game. Wonder why.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by abnormal abdomen » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:10 pm

Sooooo I'm at home sick but one of my friends texted me at 7:02 that the Auburn-Sterling match was at 125-5. So that match started some time before 7. Lloyd texted me at 7:59 that they just beat Sterling 572-79. That is a long match.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Wackford Squeers » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:24 pm

Showed up here around 5:30, the team is just now (8:30) finishing the last of our two rounds of play. I got subbed out for swearing, the round is somewhere in the twenties. Questions have been typical.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by the return of AHAN » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:49 pm

Barrington made the regional championship game. Woo! In other action, Loyola has knocked out New Trier, while Lake Zurich upset Libertyville and unseeded Tinley Park Andrew nipped Homewood-Flossmoor by 2 points for the H-F regional crown.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by the return of AHAN » Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:20 pm

BARRINGTON WINS!!!
:party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party:
First-ever IHSA Regional crown!!!!!!


In the meantime, OH NO! What am I going to do for HS staffers for my CMST tournament on Saturday?!?!?!??!?!?!?
:aaa: :aaa: :aaa: :aaa: :aaa: :aaa: :aaa: :aaa: :aaa: :aaa: :aaa: :aaa: :aaa: :aaa: :aaa: :aaa:
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Edward Elric » Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:25 am

IMSA won, questions sucked, the end.

Edit: Shut up Noah.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Dominator » Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:26 am

Congratulations to Barrington.

Looking over the scores across the state, it's really shocking how many huge wins there are compared to the number of small ones. I did see a 1-point game, as well as 2-point championship game. But too many scores are by much wider margins. At my regional, in 5/7 matches the losing team scored under 100 points, 6/7 were lost by over 100 points, and the average margin of victory was 339. Maybe this can be used as hard evidence for those advocating a 24/24 format for IHSA Regionals.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Dominator » Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:28 am

Edward Elric wrote:IMSA won, questions sucked the end.
Should there be punctuation between "sucked" and "the"? I mean, I guess the questions may have sucked an end, and I can probably guess which end, but I'm just seeking clarification.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by sssssssskkkk » Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:20 am

IMSA Regional start time: 5:30
End time: 9:15
Matches played: 3

o_o
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by cornfused » Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:52 am

The questions were really that bad?
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Dominator » Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:59 am

cornfused wrote:The questions were really that bad?
I wouldn't say the questions were especially bad. They were a HUGE step forward compared to last weekend's Masonic set, and they are still a huge step behind actual quizbowl. I didn't leave thinking "man those questions were awful" so much as I did thinking "those questions were not good". Again, though, that may be that I am comparing too much to Masonics. If we had played the GSAC set last weekend maybe these questions would seem that much worse by comparison.

On a related note, there seemed to be just a ton of comp math. I think the rooms I read for happened to hit every math bonus, so it felt like the math just wouldn't stop. Has anyone ever suggested that there be less of it?
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Geringer » Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:08 am

Dominator wrote:Has anyone ever suggested that there be less of it?
:capybara:

EDIT: You must be new here.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by mlaird » Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:16 am

Dominator wrote:On a related note, there seemed to be just a ton of comp math. I think the rooms I read for happened to hit every math bonus, so it felt like the math just wouldn't stop. Has anyone ever suggested that there be less of it?
The problem is that every time a non-comp question is converted (which is at a higher percentage rate than comp questions are), you have the chance of getting a comp bonus. When you answer (or more likely, miss) a comp question, you are guaranteed to bury a non-comp bonus. So comp bonuses come up at a much higher rate than comparable non-comp categories.

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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Deviant Insider » Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:02 pm

The old rule was to have a maximum of 8 comp tossups per round. A new rule was proposed to change the maximum to 6. The IHSA Advisory Committee wanted to be clear that they were not interested in getting rid of comp, so they changed the rule to 4-6 and passed it.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by bike waffles » Fri Mar 11, 2011 4:08 pm

Based upon the Dwight regional math comp should be severly reduced. Michael got all the math while he was in, and when he wasn't in anything that wasn't simple math went dead or negged and everyone had to sit around for 30 seconds waiting for time to run out. If the math was reduced to 3/3 a round it would save significant time from the tournament, potentially more in matches where neither team had a solid math comp person.

On another note, Sectionals tomorow YAY!!!!!!
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Matt Bardoe » Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:29 pm

It seems ScoreZone is not working.

In the first round of sectionals:

Lisle defeats Chicago Christian
Timothy Christian defeats Latin
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Dominator » Sat Mar 12, 2011 5:23 pm

Congratulations to all headed down to Peoria on Friday. In particular, congratulations to Champaign Centennial for making their first IHSA State appearance and also to St. Ignatius for being the last man standing in the bloodbath sectional. In Class A, congratulations to Keith Country Day. They and Centennial prove that scholastic bowl is won by quizbowlers and the coaches who support them, even if the programs are new.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by cornfused » Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:21 pm

Pools for Class AA State: [Auburn*, Carbondale, Peoria Richwoods, St. Ignatius] and [Champaign Centennial, IMSA, La Grange Lyons, Stevenson*].

Honestly, this seems like a good group of pairings - the top five teams are split 3 and 2 between the pools, and auburn-stevenson-st.i aren't in the same pool, either.

*SWITCH! This looks good for Stevenson.
Last edited by cornfused on Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by cornfused » Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:27 pm

Pools for Class A State: [Litchfield, PORTA, Lisle*, Warrensburg-Latham] and [Herrin, Keith Country Day, Toledo Cumberland*, Macomb].


*SWITCH!
Last edited by cornfused on Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Aaron Goldfein » Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:04 pm

I predict Stevenson defeats Auburn in the finals and St. Ignatius defeats IMSA in the third place match, though the impressiveness of IMSA so far this season and the favorable IHSA distribution leads me to pick IMSA as a strong candidate to do better than 4th. Carbondale could likewise knock off either Stevenson or St. Ignatius for a spot in the playoffs.

In A, I see no team standing a chance against Greg Dzuricsko and Lisle.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by abnormal abdomen » Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:37 pm

So what exactly happened with the pools for Friday?
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by No Electricity Required » Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:37 am

Your Cup of Robust Tea wrote:So what exactly happened with the pools for Friday?
Apparently Lisle/Toledo and Auburn/Stevenson switched pools (the IHSA does stuff like that?!). Well, if this is how it's going to be I'm pleased to not be in Lisle's pool.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:50 am

T287 wrote:
Your Cup of Robust Tea wrote:So what exactly happened with the pools for Friday?
Apparently Lisle/Toledo and Auburn/Stevenson switched pools (the IHSA does stuff like that?!). Well, if this is how it's going to be I'm pleased to not be in Lisle's pool.
My thought is that the IHSA failed to update the website properly with this year's pool assignments, simply leaving last year's pools up (albeit updating for the new Sectional names). If that's so, that's a problem that I've never seen with any other IHSA sport, so I'm not convinced.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by mrgsmath » Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:47 am

styxman wrote:
T287 wrote:
Your Cup of Robust Tea wrote:So what exactly happened with the pools for Friday?
Apparently Lisle/Toledo and Auburn/Stevenson switched pools (the IHSA does stuff like that?!). Well, if this is how it's going to be I'm pleased to not be in Lisle's pool.
My thought is that the IHSA failed to update the website properly with this year's pool assignments, simply leaving last year's pools up (albeit updating for the new Sectional names). If that's so, that's a problem that I've never seen with any other IHSA sport, so I'm not convinced.
I think you are most likely correct with the reason, unfortunately they let the sectional pool assignments remain unchanged for almost 4 weeks, and left it unchanged for almost a full day after teams were posted before realizing the mistake. It also doesn't help that the "random draw" gives the appearance of only separating strong teams and thereby achieving a desired result.

As a coach whose team was directly affected, I feel an explanation and an apology would be appropriate as well as appreciated.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Deviant Insider » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:02 am

If you ask for an explanation, there's a good chance you will get one. If your Principal or Superintendent asks for an apology, there is a small but finite chance s/he will get one.

This is not the first time this has happened. It's also not the second or third time.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by bike waffles » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:44 am

Mr. Grant's displeasure makes sense, based on how the pools were before the predictions appeared to be Litchfield and PORTA from 1 and Lisle and Macomb from 2. By switching it 1 of Lisle, Litchfield, and Porta will not make the playoffs, this will result in only 3 of the top 4 teams placing.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by mrgsmath » Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:51 pm

I did not intend for my displeasure to be as a result of our chances of placing being reduced. I was displeased with the apparent unprofessional way that the IHSA has handled, what appears to be an on-going condition. That they have not adjusted is the very definition of SNAFU.

edit spelling error
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:33 pm

mrgsmath wrote:I did not intend for my displeasure to be as a result of our chances of placing being reduced. I was displeased with the apparent unprofessional way that the IHSA has handled, what appears to be an on-going condition. That they have not adjusted is the very definition of SNAFU.
1. Yeah, Coach Grant's post (and Coach Grant's professionalism in general) make it clear that he's upset in the same way that anyone would be upset - that is, independently of whether or not it affected him and his team, that the IHSA did something uncouth and, to make matters worse, they did it without transparency. Although an apology would really only apply to teams at State, everyone should be writing/talking to the IHSA about this, no matter if they're at State or not.

2. The Class A switch actually does work towards getting the top 4 teams the top 4 trophies, as Keith Country Day is miles ahead of Litchfield this year.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by mrgsmath » Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:01 pm

I agree, having played everyone in the final 8 this year, with the exception of Herrin. I believe the pools are fairly balanced and should produce some very good matches.
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by bike waffles » Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:24 pm

the format may have a big affect on this, but at masonic litchfield took us to the last question, and macomb was a complete landslide. Also, at masonic i believe the KCD was in PORTA's pool, maybe Macomb's, but either way i feel that based on what i have seen litchfield is better than KCD, but again i've only seen litchfield once
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Re: Illinois '10 - '11

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:52 pm

Thanks to the use of Questions Galore, Masonic is 100% worthless for comparisons. I simply do not care if someone can buzz on "Eat Pray Love" or "Abraham Lincoln, Vampire Slayer," to name two literature tossups at Masonic State.
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