2011 PACE NSC

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grapesmoker
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Re: 2011 PACE NSC

Post by grapesmoker » Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:36 pm

cvdwightw wrote:In retrospect, I initially thought I should have used a less ambiguous word choice, but I now realize that no matter what word I used there, people would have still negged with E. Roosevelt, even if it had included the word "Cabinet" before "position."
I'm not sure why they would have done this unless they were not listening to the question. "First Lady," is not a cabinet position.
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Re: 2011 PACE NSC

Post by Angry Babies in Love » Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:48 pm

grapesmoker wrote:
cvdwightw wrote:In retrospect, I initially thought I should have used a less ambiguous word choice, but I now realize that no matter what word I used there, people would have still negged with E. Roosevelt, even if it had included the word "Cabinet" before "position."
I'm not sure why they would have done this unless they were not listening to the question. "First Lady," is not a cabinet position.
Have you added "Cabinet", I (and others) probably would have still reflex-buzzed. Whether or not I would have been able to figure things out in time is unknown.

Either way, people got caught in this and it's a shame that games were decided by something like this.
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Re: 2011 PACE NSC

Post by grapesmoker » Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:49 pm

Wurzel-Flummery wrote: Have you added "Cabinet", I (and others) probably would have still reflex-buzzed. Whether or not I would have been able to figure things out in time is unknown.
Yeah, but this would have made the answer unambiguous, so your answer would have been unambiguously wrong. As the question stands, your answer is correct depending on one's interpretation of the word "arranged," and it's that ambiguity which is problematic.
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Re: 2011 PACE NSC

Post by Angry Babies in Love » Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:52 pm

grapesmoker wrote:
Wurzel-Flummery wrote: Have you added "Cabinet", I (and others) probably would have still reflex-buzzed. Whether or not I would have been able to figure things out in time is unknown.
Yeah, but this would have made the answer unambiguous, so your answer would have been unambiguously wrong. As the question stands, your answer is correct depending on one's interpretation of the word "arranged," and it's that ambiguity which is problematic.
Agreed.
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Re: 2011 PACE NSC

Post by i never see pigeons in wheeling » Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:11 pm

Cernel Joson wrote:
Britannica wrote:In 1939, when the Daughters of the American Revolution (DAR) refused to let Marian Anderson, an African American opera singer, perform in Constitution Hall, Eleanor resigned her membership in the DAR and arranged to hold the concert at the nearby Lincoln Memorial.
The Packet wrote:One holder of this position arranged Marion Anderson’s famous concert on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial
.

Honestly, a buzz of "First Lady" here seems pretty much entirely justified, especially since that's what everyone buzzed with. The protest may have been handled poorly, but I gotta say that rejecting that answer would be splitting hairs.
Honestly, given that the question writer was able to find an answer to this clue that was more technically correct than the answer of "the First Lady," it's apparent that there was more than one possible answer by this point. I would not deny that State College showed real knowledge through this buzz (in fact, my own teammate, Phil, also buzzed with "First Lady"), but the fact that there were multiple answers by this point (and the also-probable fact that the question writer was unaware of the historical link between Roosevelt and Anderson but still managed to write something technically correct), it seems only fair to furnish a replacement tossup that would also test our respective history knowledge. The answer was definitely not wrong and was simply a product of the question itself being not uniquely identifying at the end of the first sentence as per quizbowl convention.
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Re: 2011 PACE NSC

Post by jgalea84 » Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:40 pm

Any progress on the results?
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Re: 2011 PACE NSC

Post by AKKOLADE » Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:04 pm

This is what I have from my notes as control room dude for the top three brackets. Goes from 1st on down. Could have errors.

State College 6-1
Hunter 6-1
LASA 5-2
Stevenson 4-3
Maggie Walker 3-4**
Bellarmine 3-4**
Auburn 1-6
St. Ignatius 0-7

Dorman A 7-0
DCC A 4-3
Alpharetta 4-3
Dunbar 4-3
TJ A 4-3
Seven Lakes 2-5
Sidney 2-5
TJ B 1-6

Torrey Pines 6-1*
Northmont 6-1*
St. Anselm 5-2
Cistercian 4-3
Olmested 3-4
Richard Mont 2-5*
Dorman B 2-5*
Mission San Jose 0-7

*Tie to be broken by statistical tiebreakers
**Do not know the result here
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Re: 2011 PACE NSC

Post by nadph » Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:09 pm

We lost to Maggie Walker in a half-packet tiebreaker played after the all-star game. I forget the score.
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Re: 2011 PACE NSC

Post by Mike Bentley » Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:27 pm

I've concluded the best way I can make up the frankly unacceptable errors in the history set and poor experience many teams had playing this tournament, I'll be donating the money owed to me for editing and question writing to Matt's Buzzers. I haven't been told what the final fee will be yet, but I believe it's a few hundred dollars. While this obviously won't magically make it so that the tournament was not plagued by logistical problems or contentious protests, I hope this small gesture can at least bring some good to the wider quizbowl community.
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Re: 2011 PACE NSC

Post by evilmonkey » Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:38 pm

Fred wrote:This is what I have from my notes as control room dude for the top three brackets. Goes from 1st on down. Could have errors.
I was in the control room of the next two brackets.

Bracket Satavahana (4) 25th-30th
IMSA - 5-0
Carbondale - 4-1
Oak Park-River Forest - 3-2
Lisgar A - 2-3
DCC B - 1-4
Lisle - 0-5

Bracket Vijayanagar (5) 31st-36th
Loyola - 4-1
Clayton - 3-2, 324 PPG (Tiebreaker: Beat WJ 190-110)
Walter Johnson - 3-2, 296 PPG (Tiebreaker: Beat Hunter B 150-130, lost to Clayton)
Hunter B - 3-2, 320 PPG
St. Joseph's 1-4 (Tiebreak Victory, 140-120)
New Trier 1-4

All tiebreaker games were played on half packets.
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Re: 2011 PACE NSC

Post by evilmonkey » Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:42 pm

jgalea84 wrote:Any progress on the results?
Also, it appears that Gautam just posted full standings in the Recap and Thanks thread.
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Re: 2011 PACE NSC

Post by Rococo A Go Go » Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:02 am

Since I have nothing else to do and because I can't stay away from anything remotely to do with FDR, I guess I'll weigh in on the Secretary of the Interior question.

I believe it is historically innaccurate to say that Eleanor Roosevelt "arranged" Marion Anderson's concert at the Lincoln Memorial. The problem here, as Jerry noted, is the ambiguity involved in the word "arranged." To me, the word implies that somebody took a direct role in organizing something. While someone else may influence (which would be a much more correct word for ER's role in the situation) an event, I don't believe it would be correct to give that person credit for the actual arrangements. The people most responsible for the concert actually happening were Anderson's manager Sol Hurok (who proposed the idea) and Secretary of the Interior Ickes, the plan was signed off on by FDR and the point man on getting things together was Assistant Secretary of the Interior Oscar Chapman. The concert was held at the Lincoln Memorial, a national monument, therefore it was under the departmental administration of the Interior Department. None of the actual "arrangements" were made by the First Lady.

Eleanor Roosevelt did indeed favor having Anderson perform in Washington and her resignation from the DAR helped focus attention on the situation, but I don't think it is correct to say that she "arranged" the concert. Eleanor did not come up with the idea, she did not propose it or formally approve (she would have if she could, but she was not in an actual position to do that) the plan, nor did she carry out the operations in any way. In fact, the Roosevelts did not even attend the concert. To say that Eleanor Roosevelt "arranged" the concert, one would have to take an extremely broad definition of the word arranged to include anybody who basically supported something happening.

My main source for this conclusion is the biography FDR by Jean Edward Smith, a good biography of Franklin Roosevelt that unfortunately (for this situation) only devotes 2/3 of a page to this incident. Within a broader historical context, Eleanor Roosevelt's role in this situation, while mostly symbolic, probably had a greater and longer lasting effect that the actual preparations made those previously mentioned. I should probably also note that I looked around at some other sources of varying quality...one interesting note is that Wikipedia also uses the word "arrange" when referring to Ickes role in this event as well, meaning that it's not an entirely uncommon way to describe Ickes' role.

With all that said, the clue probably should have been altered to further specify the type of position being asked for, but I can't bring myself to believe that "First Lady" should have been an acceptable answer in this situation. Of course I am not in any position whatsoever for my thoughts on this to be binding or even something that should be listened to by anybody reading this board, it's only my opinion and everyone can take it for what it's worth.
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Re: 2011 PACE NSC

Post by Bartleby » Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:11 am

I'm not sure where the clue fell in the tossup, but you could just as easily say "Head of the NAACP", as Walter Hill played a significant role as well. I would agree with Nick's analysis, and as I said earlier, I think your answer on this tossup depended on your interpretation of "arranged".
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Re: 2011 PACE NSC

Post by Mike Bentley » Wed Aug 17, 2011 11:09 pm

Mike Bentley wrote:I've concluded the best way I can make up the frankly unacceptable errors in the history set and poor experience many teams had playing this tournament, I'll be donating the money owed to me for editing and question writing to Matt's Buzzers. I haven't been told what the final fee will be yet, but I believe it's a few hundred dollars. While this obviously won't magically make it so that the tournament was not plagued by logistical problems or contentious protests, I hope this small gesture can at least bring some good to the wider quizbowl community.
To follow up on this, I've made a $300 personal donation to Matt's Buzzers. The remaining ~$500 in editing/writing fees I made from last year's NSC will be donated to the International Red Cross in October. (The reason the entire donation is not going to Matt's Buzzers is because Matt's Buzzers is not eligible for matching contributions from my employer. Donating to an organization like the Red Cross effectively doubles the donation.) Note that these are individual donations and not affiliated with PACE or any other quizbowl organization.
Mike Bentley
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Adviser, Quizbowl Team at University of Washington
University of Maryland, Class of 2008

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Re: 2011 PACE NSC

Post by The Time Keeper » Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:16 am

Mike Bentley wrote:
Mike Bentley wrote:I've concluded the best way I can make up the frankly unacceptable errors in the history set and poor experience many teams had playing this tournament, I'll be donating the money owed to me for editing and question writing to Matt's Buzzers. I haven't been told what the final fee will be yet, but I believe it's a few hundred dollars. While this obviously won't magically make it so that the tournament was not plagued by logistical problems or contentious protests, I hope this small gesture can at least bring some good to the wider quizbowl community.
To follow up on this, I've made a $300 personal donation to Matt's Buzzers. The remaining ~$500 in editing/writing fees I made from last year's NSC will be donated to the International Red Cross in October. (The reason the entire donation is not going to Matt's Buzzers is because Matt's Buzzers is not eligible for matching contributions from my employer. Donating to an organization like the Red Cross effectively doubles the donation.) Note that these are individual donations and not affiliated with PACE or any other quizbowl organization.
Cool beans.
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