On-going season rankings

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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by Remember-the-Alamo-Remember-Goliad » Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:18 pm

sacagawea wrote:
Andrew's a Freshman wrote:Unless I'm mistaken, I don't believe the ICT is comparable enough to any other set that has been played to have a significant impact on these rankings.
Is this true, which is to say, will the Texas Invitational stats not be considered in future rankings? If not, I understand the argument as to why not implicit in the quoted statement above. Then again, if assessing comparability in difficulty, it seemed as though ICT DII was about as hard as ACF Reg, and if anything, perhaps a tad easier. Additionally, three of the top ten teams in the nation played, so the stats might deserve consideration because they would most likely have some significance in the rankings, particularly among top schools. Ultimately, I pose the questions as a curiosity.
Having stated my thoughts on the matter, I defer to sacagawea and simply say 'ditto'.
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by Mewto55555 » Sun May 01, 2011 2:33 pm

For ranking purposes, the "Battle of Hymn of the Tamil Tiger Mother" team at the Rock Bridge MUT Mirror was the full A team of a certain school which was not allowed to be affiliated with it.
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by LucasBrown » Mon May 02, 2011 1:43 am

A school that's been consistently passed over--University High School (CA). They've managed to beat Torrey Pines (#25) a time or two and have beaten Rancho Bernardo (#30) with some consistency, but they never seem to make it into the list.
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by AKKOLADE » Mon May 02, 2011 2:13 am

You mean #49 University?
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by Flash Bomba » Mon May 02, 2011 2:28 am

Yeah, thats us. Also, we've been playing all year missing one of Rohit, Alex K, or myself, our top 3 players.
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by Smuttynose Island » Mon May 02, 2011 11:00 am

In case it matters, both TJ A and B were undermanned at Mid-Atlantic Championship. TJ A was missing Diana from its traditional lineup, while TJ B was a two man team missing both of its best NAQT players from its traditional lineup and one player working on 1.5hrs of sleep.
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by Dante (Bichette) » Mon May 02, 2011 3:30 pm

Also in case it matters, the Hunter B team from BOAT was the only real B team that's played all year (Marianna, David, Matthew, and myself).
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by Carambola! » Mon May 02, 2011 7:36 pm

Whilst at NorCal states, we were missing a good 40% of our scoring in the form of Jeffrey S. and Raymond.
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by Remember-the-Alamo-Remember-Goliad » Fri May 06, 2011 3:05 pm

As we head into NAQT and then PACE, I think we find ourselves in a good place; our end-of-year goals are still very much in play.
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by Smuttynose Island » Sat May 14, 2011 8:52 pm

DanAMan at Rider Bowl II was one member of TJ B, namely me, playing solo, if you chose to use those stats.
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by AKKOLADE » Sun May 22, 2011 12:07 am

I plan on doing an update soon, but it's going to be made difficult by the fact that my laptop is currently running Vista with just 1 gig of RAM. It does not like this very much at all.
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by AKKOLADE » Sun May 22, 2011 7:26 pm

Attached to this post is my spreadsheet of stats for this entire year.

If you notice a tournament missing, PLEASE POST IT HERE or else email it to me. Similarly, if there's a major error (I got something wrong from the stats sheet) or an omission of a team, post it here.
Attachments
final stats to post.xls
(155 KiB) Downloaded 283 times
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by AKKOLADE » Sun May 22, 2011 7:38 pm

Space reserved for list of known issues.
  • "ACF Winter Texas" listed for LASA A & B is from 2010. Not sure how that got in there
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by Steeve Ho You Fat » Sun May 22, 2011 9:51 pm

Walnut Hills' results from ADVANTAGE should probably go with 'Hamilton Academical.'

Also, I don't know whether or not you'll want to include it, but this scrimmagy thing on DII ICT happened this weekend and had lots of teams you have entries for: http://results.scobo.net/SQBS.aspx?org= ... =standings
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo » Sun May 22, 2011 10:29 pm

Do you leave out certain results that don't contain members of all of the "regular" A squads? I just notice that the two tournaments you don't have listed under our team are the ones where our A Team wasn't really all there.

Also, i may be missing it, but i don't see TJIAT in there at all. http://activities.tjhsst.edu/quizbowl/2 ... dings.html
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by centralhs » Sun May 22, 2011 10:51 pm

Carangoides ciliarius wrote:Do you leave out certain results that don't contain members of all of the "regular" A squads? I just notice that the two tournaments you don't have listed under our team are the ones where our A Team wasn't really all there.
I wondered about that as well. Our stats aren't listed for the Georgia Tech HSNCT Warmup (DII Sectionals mirror) although some other schools have their stats from this tournament listed. We haven't been listed in the top 100 rankings at any point this year, so I guess it doesn't really matter; I was just a little curious.
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by Remember-the-Alamo-Remember-Goliad » Mon May 23, 2011 10:04 pm

Once these minor glitches are worked out, we'll get one final snapshot of the national field before heading out to Atlanta!
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by AKKOLADE » Mon May 23, 2011 10:15 pm

centralhs wrote:
Carangoides ciliarius wrote:Do you leave out certain results that don't contain members of all of the "regular" A squads? I just notice that the two tournaments you don't have listed under our team are the ones where our A Team wasn't really all there.
I wondered about that as well. Our stats aren't listed for the Georgia Tech HSNCT Warmup (DII Sectionals mirror) although some other schools have their stats from this tournament listed. We haven't been listed in the top 100 rankings at any point this year, so I guess it doesn't really matter; I was just a little curious.
Basically, I went with numbers that I thought were befitting teams that could reasonably end up in the top 100, or at least somewhat close. Sometimes, numbers from teams fall above and below that "line" (not so much a line as a gut instinct); sometimes, I just miss stats.
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by AKKOLADE » Mon May 23, 2011 10:59 pm

Pre-nationals rankings posted here.
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo » Mon May 23, 2011 11:43 pm

So you just decided not to include those TJIAT stats at all for anyone, then, or something?
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by AKKOLADE » Mon May 23, 2011 11:51 pm

i don't like it when my jaw locks up
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by Deviant Insider » Tue May 24, 2011 6:51 am

YOU RANKED MY TEAM PRETTY MUCH APPROPRIATELY!!
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by AKKOLADE » Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:54 am

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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by AlphaQuizBowler » Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:18 pm

So we get 11th at the NSC (including beating TJ A on a full packet and then again on a half-packet) and we drop to 20th, behind Walton and Ladue? You gave way too much credence to the HSNCT results.
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:30 pm

Man, are you just going out of your way to be a jackass or something?
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by Edward Powers » Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:17 am

Fred, Fred, Fred!!!!

Hunter 4th? Stevenson 6th?

Richard Montgomery behind Novi?

These are only a few of what appear to be many strange final rankings. Are you trying to provoke many pollsters to correct you in the final Post Season Poll? It seems you are, for how else explain such errors at the Top of your rankings when the Nationals that have just passed seeemd to suggest other conclusions, and if you have erred here, through haste or deliberate provocation, I think, then surely your rankings from 20 to 130 were also seriously rushed.

Some brief illustrations at or near the top of your rankings to help make my point, with some necessary supporting evidence:

Hunter competed in 3 tournaments with LASA: Harvard's HFT, Delta Burke at Harvard, and the NSC. It played LASA head to head 5 times, going 3-2 against LASA's great team, and finishing ahead of it in 2 of the 3 tournaments, most importantly, at the NSC when it won head to head in the Superplayoffs, helping to earn its spot in the Final against State College, going 6-0 in that great field on Sunday, while LASA went 4-2 on Sunday, I believe. So your placing Hunter behind LASA is very perplexing. And Bellarmine has a great team as well, but how in the world can you place it ahead of Hunter? Hunter played much more in the regular season, winning almost every tournament it entered with extraaordinary stats, and, more important, finished ahead in the one National they played together. This is not meant to demean Bellarmine in any way, but surely placing it ahead of Hunter is doubly perplexing.

Meanwhile, Stevenson finished 4th in BOTH Nationals, ahead of an admittedly terrific MWGS both times, and it is BEHIND MWGS? With what rationale? i bet the Stevenson kids would love to hear it. Again, MWGS had a great team and great season, but I think MWGS would wonder how it can place NATIONALLY ahead of a team it finsihed behind in both Nationals?

Additionally, Richard Montgomery played better than Novi all year, as your yearly rankings suggested, finishes ahead of it in the one National both attend, and Novi, who had a great run at the HSNCT, but who still finished behind RMA there, finishes ahead in your rankings? Again, this is NOT a knock on Novi, but an argument for comparing apples with apples and oranges with oranges.

And Alpharetta has a legit beef as well---it finished 13th at the NSC, despite two 10 point losses, one of them an amazing 450-440 loss against LASA in the process---your #2 team---and you drop them in the rankings? Again, perplexing. Are they being punished for not going to the HSNCT?

It seems you rushed your list; my guess is your Post Season Poll will correct some of these seeming errors---unless of course it is I who has erred, but I am willing to let your pollsters decide this. And given the errors at the very Top of the rankings, the easiest place NOT to err, I think, you will have awakened many pollsters to help you see the light.

Fortunately, this is all for fun and even with the best of intentions you were bound to upset some people, but I fear however good your intentions were, your apparent haste here will provoke more pollsters to show you the error of your ways---this at least, is my guess.

EDIT: One last illustration among many possible examples: Saint Joe's, my team, finished tied for 33rd at HSNCT with an outstanding, Top 25 calibre Walton team, along with many other good teams that were tied for 33rd; we had one common opponent, Chanhannsen. We defeated Chanhansen by 100 points, Walton lost by 5; we defeated two teams in the prelims ranked 20-30 spots above us going into the tournament, Torrey Pines and Lisle, and played Cistercian down to the wire. Walton played well too, but went 6-4 in the Prelims, while we went 7-3. We played two tough matches in the playoffs, losing an excellent double 300 point match to 9th seed DCC A and a 305-330 nailbiter on the last question to Early College before being eliminated. Walton went 1-1 in the playoffs, so it ended 7-5 as we did. The result? Walton climbed 6 spots from 25th to 19th in your rankings, we dropped 6 spots, from 50th to 56th. I have no problem with our dropping 6 spots, since we played less well at the NSC---without our 2nd best player, but you certainly could not really be expected to have known that. My problem is with elevating Walton 6 spots on the basis of a tied for 33rd finsih, while dropping Alpharetta behind Walton after its much more stellar performance at NSC, or, comparing apples to apples, droppping Olmsted Falls after it finished 21st at both Nationals, clearly, to be fair, a better performance than Walton's still very nice showing overall. And, the Torrey Pines team we defeated when we played at full strength climbed from 28th to 26th*** in your rankings after finishing tied for 49th at the HSNCT. To be fair, however, it did bounce back and finished in the Top 18 or so at the NSC, including a wonderful 450-400 victory over eventual runner-up Hunter College. But I do not think you took these factors into consideration when you posted your most recent rankings. My guess---you ignored overall performance and simply went for your panacea---PPB. But to ignore actual overall performance at Nationals and then post a final National ranking based on only one aspect of play is, well, comical. And beause it is, we can forgive you, for we all need a good laugh now and then. But maybe, on the whole, I am wrong here; if so, the Final Poll should reveal this. And again, maybe your strategy here was provocative in the first place---to get procrastinating voters in your Final Post Season Poll motivated enough to actually vote. We know your have wily methods at times; was this one of those times? I'm betting that it...

***This is an error; Torrey Pines actually dropped 2 spots from 26th to 28th in Fred's rankings after finishing 49th at the HSNCT and 18th at the NSC, whereas Alpharetta dropped 4 spots after finishing 13th at the NSC---improving 3 spots on its Morlan ranking going into the NSC, which had been #16, I believe. Still, my error re: Torrey Pines' ranking climbing 2 spots when it actually fell 2 in the Morlan rankings reveals the problems with taking undue care before posting. In short, haste is always a problem. Would you not agree, Fred?
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by Auroni » Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:18 am

AlphaQuizBowler wrote:So we get 11th at the NSC (including beating TJ A on a full packet and then again on a half-packet) and we drop to 20th, behind Walton and Ladue? You gave way too much credence to the HSNCT results.
Did you even read the following:

"1) Attendance at HSNCT and/or NSC is key to producing a valued ranking of a team; these performances were extremely heavily weighted in this ranking. Teams that did not attend either national were eligible to be ranked, but did see drops down the rankings."

Given the level of respect shown to Fred's work on these rankings, I remain firmly convinced that nobody should do them next year.
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by The King's Flight to the Scots » Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:31 am

LASA, Bellarmine, Ladue, and others are all great teams who have put a ton of work into this game; in particular, LASA could have easily won either national, which Benji and Thomas showed with their performance at NASAT. I am disgusted that this thread has insulted all of these great squads so atrociously.
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by Cheynem » Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:34 am

Aside I guess from William's rather uncalled for swipe at Ladue, I am perplexed as to how this thread is atrociously insulting LASA and Bellarmine. Coach Powers disagrees with the rankings and posted at great length about it, but isn't that exactly why you make rankings? It didn't seem like he was attacking the teams unless to critique a ranking is to inherently attack a team. I agree with Auroni that if people are just going to complain about rankings and get offended when rankings are discussed, then I would not have the rankings in the first place.
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo » Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:10 pm

One of the things that's still odd is that admission that, basically, if a team went to one nationals and not both, it would be ranked lower than a team that went to both of them but didn't do as well on average. At least, that's what it seems like to me. If this isn't true, i'd like somebody to explain what the rationale is, because i'm just a little confused on this point.

Otherwise, i like the rankings a lot and they've been really fun to read. Plus, it's a great way to see so many results and compare teams (with Fred listing all those stats for each tournament). I really hope he continues them. If he needs help compiling statistics, i'm sure there are lots of people willing to assist with that.
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:13 pm

I also don't see very much of this thread as disrespecting Fred's work, contra Auroni. I guess I may be being too charitable, but I don't really see "I think we were mis-ranked!" as something particularly disrespectful in a discussion about rankings; it seems like precisely what discussion would naturally follow! (Otherwise the thread is "Here are the rankings" followed by a million "those sure are rankings!")

It's simple disagreement; sure, William could have rephrased as "I feel as though your principle of dropping teams that only play one national is mis-applied, or at least over-applied, in our case," or, perhaps, he could have been aware of that principle in the first place (I don't know for sure that he wasn't; his phrasing just indicates as much)--but it hardly merits a hand to our collective mouth and a solemn reminder of how uncivil we've been.
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by Edward Powers » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:36 pm

Matt, I gather that you think I insulted LASA & Bellarmine, and I assume you think William did the same to Ladue?

I cannot speak for William, but I guess his use of italics when writing Ladue might be construed as an insult, but my guess is that William did this not to insult Ladue but to signify the intensity of his disagreement with Fred. But I will let William speak for himself.

Sadly, you use the word "DISGUST" when responding to these posts, as if we are not allowed to question Fred. And if your read more closely, that is all I did---question Fred's judgments, with sufficiency of examples, I think, but I could add many more if I wished. I simply do no think this was Fred's finest hour. And Auroni's suggestion that criticism of Fred amounts to depreciation of Fred's labor of love here is a non-sequitur of the first order and if followed by the quizbowl community, it would have the effect of stifling discussion, which, as has been noted, is the purpose of these forums.

Further, if you do re-read my post with a more discerning eye, you will notice I used superlatives when discussing LASA and Bellarmine---I think both teams are truly great, and they seem like outstanding sportsmen as well, and I stated this explicitly weeks ago when the adults immediately after the NSC had their bloody temperments thrown into bold relief by the graciousness of these very two specific teams.

But a troubling aspect of your comment suggests that if I make a case for Hunter deserving to be ranked higher, I do not appreciate and instead demean the work ethic of these teams? But by implication, cannot your argument be turned on its head, so I could now put words in your mouth and impolitely suggest how disgusted I am that you do not appreciate the work ethic of Hunter College? But surely Hunter shares the same spirit and the same love of quizbowl as do LASA and Bellarmine? So, if we leave these comparable issues aside, what are we left with? A great case for Hunter. Let's take a look. Hunter and LASA played 3 tournaments together this year, at HFT, at Delta Burke the next day, and, most important, at the NSC. Hunter's record head to head---3-2. Not a great amount of games, for sure, but in 2 of the 3 tournamnents, Hunter finished ahead of LASA's truly great team. Most important, on Sunday at the NSC, when both had a chance to get to the finals and play for the National Championship you say LASA could have won, who played better, which is the decisive criterion that must go into any ranking? Hunter defeated LASA head to head, then proceeded to clear the field (exept for SC's 5-1 record), going 6-0. LASA, to its credit, defeated the very great State College team, but lost to Stevenson, going 4-2 and thus losing its ability to get to the final. You might want to quibble that LASA is really the better team, but when the National Title was on the line that Sunday, Hunter cleared LASA by 2 games that day.

Now turn to the argument for Hunter vis-vis Bellarmine. Hunter again, 6-0 on Sunday, while Bellarmine ended up 5th overall, including a loss head to head to Hunter. So, in their only head-to head tournament, Hunter comes out ahead, but because of Bellarmime's work ethic it should be ranked ahead? Your sense of work ehic is, you must admit, subjective, whereas results re objective. So, surely I should have been allowed to make the case for Hunter, and later for Stevenson and Alphareta and Olmsted Falls, as I did, without suffering impolite accusations inherent in your post.

Be this as it may, check the words I used to describe every team I mentioned---I always made an effort to honor their performances, even when criticizing Fred's conclusions.

I trust I can close amicably, because I suspect you regret the failure of your diction when describing honest efforts at debate as "disgusting". Your gentle nature and passionate love of quizbowl, demonstratd over seferal years, lead me to conclude that you really meant to say you were "ingesting "all of my comical by-play with Fred, something I've done all year and something he's laughed at often, something I think Auroni also missed when trying to defend Fred when Fred can do that for himself. So, am I correct, my fellow Cavalier---were you attempting to write "ingesting" and somehow "disgusted" accidently spilled from your electronic pen? Or, heaven forbid, did you really mean to be so mean-spirited and unCavilier? I certainly will never believe the latter, so you must have been jesting---or was it gesting--or was it ingesting? Or have I confused gest with gust? or with no-gust, that is, dis-gust or? Clearly I am confused---or is it bemused? Diction just ain't my specialty either, so I can understand such cavalier errors for sure!
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by Huang » Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:40 pm

Edward Powers wrote:blah blah LASA vs. Hunter blah blah Bellarmine vs. Hunter blah blah
You know, maybe Fred gave more weight to power and PPB stats (see below)? I still don't understand why you're making this such a big deal. I thought rankings were just suppose to give teams a general idea of their competition so they could set for themselves appropriate expectations and goals for further improvement, but you're treating these rankings (or these magical polls) as if they validate a team's accomplishments more so than, oh let's say, where they placed at NSC. Yeah, Fred made some mistakes like leaving a few teams off that he probably just honestly overlooked, but I disagree that these rankings warrant responses like "Are you trying to provoke many pollsters to correct you in the final Post Season Poll?," especially when you're basically just nitpicking the positions of teams within the very top tier who can all beat each other depending on the packet (which I think is why Fred prefers power and PPB stats over head-to-head).

LASA: PACE NSC (NSC, 545.0 ppg, 7.5 15pg, 24.68 ppb)
Bellarmine: PACE NSC (NSC, 496.9 ppg, 6.1 15pg, 24.97 ppb)
Hunter: PACE NSC (NSC, 500.0 ppg, 5.3 15pg, 23.25 ppb)
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by Edward Powers » Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:03 pm

Yes. Sandy. We can get too serious---hence my effort at comedy with Fred, largely missed, while also suggesting some friendly criticisms---for which certain unkind things were said, which I tried to address with civilty and some in-"gestating" humor or --was it "gusto"---(or was it "dis-gusto"???)..so confusing...

Further, if you read my original post more closely, I explicitly stated that Fred actually did what you just said---he probably took his favorite short-cut and panacea to rank most teams---using PPB instead of actual National Championship match play results to rank teams Nationally---what could be funnier---so you are already repeating what he did. Why not do away with Nationals all together and figure out who had the best PPB for the year among teams who played in a minimum of X matches for the season. It would certainly save traveling costs and give us an unimpeachable mathematical champion---assuming we could agree on the minimum number of qualifying matches, how to compare A Sets from Regular Sets from Difficult Sets--all of which is apparently undefinable for the most part---so then we would have undefinable national championship stats, a very auspicious and promising substitute for actual face to face match play ( such a stale idea when the beauties of stats, especially of monolithic types of stats, promises so much more certainty and regularity and uniformity in its undefineable cross-difficutly PPB tournamment statistical gradations, ultimately grace with that wondrous word, Rankings!

But, ALAS, the merest tyro can see that PPB do not automatically decide matches or champiosnhips; in the very examples you give, Hunter, with the lowest PPB of the three teams, finished ahead of both of its outstanding competitors, LASA & Bellarmine, by defeating them head to head in match play. I guess toss-ups actually count too, but who knew???????????????????????
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by Matt Weiner » Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:04 pm

It's threads like this that make me wonder if starting the message board was such a great idea in the first place.
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by Huang » Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:32 pm

Edward Powers wrote:more blah
Dude...like you completely missed the point
unimpeachable mathematical champion
This isn't the exact purpose of Fred's rankings, at least not my interpretation of them. While you may have an unhealthy obsession with where your team is ranked, I know that Dunbar solely used it to set expectations and goals for when we went to tournaments to track our improvement (I use "we" and "our" loosely since my only second semester tournaments were HSNCT and NSC).
Hunter, with the lowest PPB of the three teams, finished ahead of both of its outstanding competitors, LASA & Bellarmine, by defeating them head to head in match play. I guess toss-ups actually count too, but who knew???????????????????????
And so Hunter placed 2nd at NSC...what's your point? Any school would rather place 2nd at an actual national tournament than place 2nd in an online statistical ranking.
Why not do away with Nationals
Why not do away with rankings then if we've already played nationals? (not a serious suggestion)
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by nadph » Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:41 pm

If these rankings are done next year, I suggest posting them in a locked thread and forbidding anyone from discussing them.
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by Edward Powers » Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:42 pm

Right; do away with message boards because some people have a sense of humor and a critical intellect rooted in the evidence from match play and not some overworked PPB formula. Surely you gest---jest---Mr. Weiner? What specifically about the series of posts made so far makes you wish that perhaps message boards should be eliminated? Remove the message boards=removing communication=removing the qb community=the end of quizbowl.

Hmmm: Option One: Discuss Fred's controversial rankings?

Option Two: Remove message boards and end quizbowl all together for thinking that discussion is part & parcel of any healthy community?

Which door should we choose?

But surely I jest (gest?) here. But do you?

Really, is this perhaps a generational thing in the final analysis? Are you so used to one-line twitters that a more elaborate commentary is tiresome to you, so tiresome that you go so far as to suggest that the boards should cease carrying messages? Or is something else at work here that I simply do not see? Consider: I commented on Fred's judgements. Some understood, but others were insulted.I tried to gently ameliorate the sense of insult. I then get quoted about an idea I myself suggested, to wit, that Fred is using PPB instead of match play for final national rankings, which I see as flawed. Result? This entire thread then leads an important leader in this community to wonder if we should ever have had message boards in the first place?

Can anyone explain this apparent reasoning, or have I misunderstood? To protect my own sanity, and to avoid the silliness of creating a tempest in a tea-pot, I am going to assume that I HAVE misunderstood and I have missed Matt W's complete irony here, which is surely funny, givenall of the comic irony I have endeavored to intersperse throughout these all too many posts! And the rest is----silence.
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by Nick » Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:47 pm

While everyone is surely appreciative that Fred is willing to compile and analyze the stats, and crank out a ranking of some sort, It seems pretty clear that people aren't ever going to be fully satisfied because, among other reasons, the rankings arent based on anything definitive. Its Fred's rankings and he can set whatever sort of rubric he wants. But I think most people want a legit ranking (not just something "fun") and sometimes we forget that Fred's effort, although definitely appreciated, is still just a subjective simulacrum of what might be ideal. So instead of suggesting that we just scrap rankings all together or hate on Fred for "doing it wrongly" lets try to be productive about what we want.

An idea to get closer to the ideal: Kind of along the lines of what Powers said, lets come up with a mathematical formula of some sort and put it in place for next season. The benefits of that plan seem to be: a) anybody can input data, b) you cant dispute where a team is in the rankings, and c) everybody has a clear and resolute understanding of the criteria. I wont pretend to know what the formula should be, but having one makes sense to me over not having one and/or doing the Fred thing.

A very simple idea to get the ball rolling which people can modify, critique, or discuss as wanted: (1 - Win%) multiplied by (#ofTeams) = Rank.
(I already see some drawbacks: isolated circuits, inactive/infrequent line-ups, etc) but I'll let others give their input.
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by Nick » Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:49 pm

Also, if somebody could get a computer to compare the stats (via some sort of complex formula), it would probably be even better, since, you know, computers are pretty good at that.
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by Cheynem » Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:50 pm

I think discussing and critiquing the rankings is fine because I see no other reason why they are posted in an open discussion forum.

However, sniping at other teams (the Ladue comment), the endless back and forth series of hyperbolic comments (a whole paragraph whimsically comparing using PPB in rankings to eliminating nationals altogether), the tedious back and forth discussion of other people's posts (several paragraphs analyzing Matt W. and Matt B.'s posts)...I find this pretty unproductive to be honest.
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by Edward Powers » Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:50 pm

Sandy,

And you missed so much more. It's called irony. And respect for discussion rathen than an effort to suppress with such ideas like "What are you so serious about"...I guess the mere act of conversing is evidence of an untoward earnestness...Unless it is you doing the discussing, DUDE???????

Oh well...I've never been called Dude before. I guess one must take one's victories where one can. Have a nice summer, Sandy!
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:53 pm

Man, Sandy's so mad!

I think a lot of this discussion misses the point. It's fine to say "Fred's rankings take too little head to head data into account" or "Fred's rankings should not penalize teams for attending one national" or "Fred's rankings are the best rankings ever" or whatever. But the idea that someone is insulting Fred by talking about his rankings in a thread about his rankings that you can post in is well-meaning but frankly silly; the idea that meta-criticisms of whether one's criticism of the rankings on a certain basis is valid enough to be part of this thread is frankly silly (Sandy, I do agree with you that Coach Powers-----or should I say, Coach Powers?????????-----------is overweighting records, if these rankings are meant to be predictive and not retrodictive, and not weighting stuff like PPB enough in his final analysis; I disagree that expositing his vision of what these rankings ought to be is quite so heinous as you find it). People have different opinions of how a set of rankings should be constructed that are based on totally different premises, and no amount of arguing is going to change those opinions.

(Which is not to say "it's silly to express your opinion about what is good and bad about Fred's ranking's or the Powers proposal or whatever you wish." I just wouldn't expect anyone to change their opinions on this matter, and since it's not even something as important as a tournament's format, no one should worry overmuch about that.)
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by magin » Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:56 pm

Since no one is going to be fully satisfied with any ranking system, and apparently lots of people care about their placement, how about this? For every 25 good high school questions you write, your team gets a point; for every point accrued by your team, you rise a place in the rankings. Then the complaining players and coaches can do something to increase their rankings while supporting quizbowl, and the teams who don't care will get to hear more good questions.
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by Sniper, No Sniping! » Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:59 pm

Quiz bowl, if you think about it, is really one of the very few high school activities out there that have national competitions in addition to a regular season/circuit. I fully appreciate what Fred does for the polls and all, for one because he takes his own time to calculate the rankings, and like I think someone said earlier, there doesn't have to be polls made if all people do is complain about them. While I may have some differing views on some of the rankings, the bigger picture here is the quiz bowl rankings are used by many as the precedent set for expectations for not only their team, but in some cases, the area from which the team is. The greatest thing about quiz bowl interscholastic competition (especially Nationals) is that the top teams will play the top teams, whether they're Bellarmine from California or Hunter from NYC. This doesn't happen in other high school activities. As a young player on a team that obviously isn't on the rankings, I look at these and think to myself (oh cool, its neat knowing that one of the teams I played this year in the regular season, State College, later went on to win two separate National Titles the same year and a #1 ranking) and I use it as motivation to get better, and I'm sure sometime in the near future a kid from one of the schools at the top is going to look at this and realize the tradition and greatness achieved by their predecessors and use that as motivation to keep the "legacy" alive. I agree with Nick that there should be some time of formula to determine the "computer champ" of the rankings.
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by Edward Powers » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:07 pm

Yes, Mr. Cheyne, whimsicsally!

Doesn't anyone have a sense of humor any more?

For God's sakes, Fred understands. Fred, where the hell are you? Can you tell them all to lighten up, that the post that started all of this was friendly commentary, the kind we've shared all year?

Can it really be that whimsy is tiresome? And since when was it meant to be productive? It's not a mtter of efficiency---it's a matter of shared and friendly communal banter---hence the effort at some whimsy while engendering a meaningful conversation about Fred's rankings. And here is a bet: I bet Fred would be the first to acknowledge that these are his judgments and his alone. Next, I bet he would admit that he is not infallible. Next, given these two facts, I would bet that he is mature enough to handle efforts at reasonable disagreements. So, next, I bet he would understand that these forums are the logical place forthe commuiinty to do this--and, as an afterthought, since the National Tornaments seem not to have yet led to consensus beyond which is the best team in the US, I would bet that is why he wants the community as a whole, or at least that portion of it that cares for closure after a long season, to send him its informed judgment of how to interpret these two great national results, hence his call for those votes by July 1.

So Fred, where the hell are you? Can you confirm these bets of mine? I'll bet you can.
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by Cheynem » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:15 pm

I have a sense of humor. I actually find Just Shoot Me! funny. And I believe you when you say you are just whimsically needling Fred as per previous times. But I just feel like enough people are taking your comments at face value, forcing you to explain them, that it's just leading to a very unproductive conversation.
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by Edward Powers » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:20 pm

Mike,

Fair enough, and you are probably correct about the particulars, but as for discussion as a whole and its overall spirit, I never find it pointless to try to heal misunderstandings, and I usually use humor as a salve. Sorry it seems counter-productive.
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by cvdwightw » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:31 pm

Fred Morlan, at the beginning of this thread wrote:This isn't endorsed by any organization or anyone else, and is barely endorsed by me. I do not mean to slight anyone by my rankings and, if they cause any offense, I apologize in advance for that. That's the last thing I want to do with this process. At some point, though, I do need to stick someone next to some number.
Having these rankings was a good thing. It was a good source of discussion about all sorts of things. The fact that people are apparently taking these things way too seriously and complaining about being mis-ranked is a bad thing. Without putting words in Fred's mouth, I think he did this because he really cares about the game and the people who play it and wanted to reflect all the hard work that people across the nation have put in, even if no one else saw it. If you want to encourage Fred not to do this next year, keep posting.

---END TERRIBLE META(-META?)-DISCUSSION HERE---
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Re: On-going season rankings

Post by Auroni » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:59 pm

Edward Powers wrote:And Auroni's suggestion that criticism of Fred amounts to depreciation of Fred's labor of love here is a non-sequitur of the first order and if followed by the quizbowl community, it would have the effect of stifling discussion, which, as has been noted, is the purpose of these forums.
Criticism of Fred is not the only thing that has gone on the past year. People have been suggesting that Fred has been overlooking trillions of factors that he has in fact taken into account, taken him to task for the evidence basically contradicting their gut feeling, and are now ignoring things he says and are getting upset when they find that Fred has done something that he said that he did.

The ranking is a privilege and tons of high schoolers have become disturbingly psychologically dependent on it. As someone told me in private, it has become the US News and World Report for this activity. We've seen overreactions by tons of people over slight drops and suggestions that another team might be better than them. If noted respectable person Fred gets this much crap for this endeavor, I really don't think that it's worth doing by anyone next year. We don't need someone to put in a lot of effort and see it get torn to shreds in order to engage in idle prognostication.
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