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Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:12 pm
by lchen
Hunter College High School is proud to announce its fourth annual Prison Bowl (named after its locale, the "Brick Prison"), to be held on Saturday, March 5, 2011. To register, please email me at [email protected]. We are still waiting on the final details of our room reservations, but the field will most likely be capped at 24 teams. Schools can only register up to two teams at this point, with additional teams going on a waiting list.
UPDATE (11/9/10): The field is capped at 36 teams. Schools can register up to three teams for now.
UPDATE (2/16/11): Schools can register any number of teams.

Questions
The questions will be standard mACF format (20 pyramidal tossups, 30-point 3-part bonuses, no computational math), similar to last year's, written by the Hunter team. We're aiming for regular difficulty (similar to HSAPQ). The distribution will look something like this:

4/4 Literature
4/4 History
4/4 Science
2.5/2.5 Religion, Mythology, and Philosophy
2.5/2.5 Fine Arts
1/1 Social Science
1/1 Geography
1/1 Pop Culture, Current Events

Last year's set can be found at quizbowlpackets.com.

Tournament Format
Rounds will consist of an untimed 20/20, with neg-fives, no powers, and no rebounding bonuses. There will probably be about 12 rounds. Teams will play a bracketed round-robin prelim and re-bracketed round-robin playoffs, with the top two teams playing an advantaged final if necessary.

Fee Structure
$80 for first team
$70 for each subsequent team
-$10 for each working buzzer system
-$10 for each experienced moderator
Minimum fee: $40 per team
Other discounts, such as for travel, can be negotiated on a case-by-case basis (just email me).

Mirrors
We are also looking for mirror sites in various regions across the U.S. Please email me if you are interested in mirroring Prison Bowl.

Field as of 3/4/2011 (18 teams, 8 buzzers, 2 moderators)
St. Joseph HS (3, 2, 1)
Bergen County Academies (2, 2, 0)
Kellenberg Memorial HS (2, 2, 1)
Dorman (1, 0, 0)
Georgetown Day School (1, 1, 0)
St. Anselm's Abbey School (1, 0, 0)
Detroit Catholic Central (1, 1, 0)
Scarsdale HS (2, 0, 0)
LASA (2, 0, 0)
Trinity (1, 0, 0)
Team Tribeca (2, 0, 0)

Waiting List (0 teams)

Expressing Interest

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:24 pm
by Andrew's a Freshman
Norcross would like to run a mirror of this (again) on the same day (3/5/11). The field will be limited to either 16 or 24 teams. We hope to attract as many of the top SE teams as possible to make for a pretty dense field.

Thanks.

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:38 am
by Irreligion in Bangladesh
What's the earliest date that this could get mirrored?

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:06 pm
by lchen
styxman wrote:What's the earliest date that this could get mirrored?
We will definitely have the questions done by February 26th. February 19th would be ideal, but it might not happen.

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:29 pm
by jonpin
BCA is near-certain to attend. Put us down for two teams for now with two buzzers. I don't know whether I'll be there to moderate or not, I hope I will.

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:36 pm
by Tanay
Bellarmine is interested in attending this, pending some logistical stuff. We tend to have two buzzers.

Edit: I should clarify, though, that when I say "some logistical stuff," I mean a good amount.

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:57 pm
by SHP Pirate
Seton Hall will be there. One team, one reader, and four buzzers.

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:48 pm
by kayli
How much would it cost to mirror this set?

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:10 pm
by Black-throated Antshrike
Provided Delaware doesn't get snowed in again X) and there's no conflict with UD's tournament, Charter will probly send around 3 teams.

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:40 am
by lchen
Yay, we have rooms! :party:
The field is now capped at 36 teams. (We have enough rooms for this to be potentially higher, but I don't know how many staffers we'll have yet.) This means teams can register up to 3 teams for now.
Arsonists Get All the Girls wrote:How much would it cost to mirror this set?
We're asking for $14 per team. If you're interested please email me.

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:12 am
by Eric Huff
Dorman is "expressing interest". Hunter is always one of our favorite tournaments of the year, and we look forward to coming back in March.

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:16 am
by Down and out in Quintana Roo
Once again this is turning into a mini-Nationals event here, but we'll just wait for a mirror in the DC area i hope.

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 4:34 am
by Edward Powers
Bumped for a field update.

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:16 pm
by lchen
Edward Powers wrote:Bumped for a field update.
The field is the same as it was on 11/21, Coach Powers. (Unless I've forgotten anyone, but I don't think I have.)

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:24 am
by Cassian
Lily -

Please take this as LASA's 'expression of interest' for somewhere between 2 and 4 teams. I'm going to send out an official email to my QB parents in the coming weeks to see what the numbers look like, and I'll get back to you via email as soon as I know something. We had loads of fun last year, and we're looking forward to coming back.

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:33 pm
by Edward Powers
Lily,

Your field is shaping up beautifully. You must be proud of the fact that some of the best teams in this area will be joined by great teams from Texas, South Carolina, Michigan and DC, with the promise that even more great teams on your interested list---from as far away as sunny California--- might come as well. And, given the time still remaining, perhaps even more great teams will come, perhaps from neighboring states like Pennsy or regional neighbors like Maryland or Virginia. In fact, given the ongoing stature of Prison Bowl it would not surprise me if some of the best teams from every region of the country decided to join the great teams already registered, perhaps from places like Georgia or Kentucky, possibly Ohio or Illinois, where many more of our great high school teams currently reside. Do you think it's possible? Have you heard any such rumors? Has anyone reading this heard such rumors? Curious here in Jersey.

EDIT: The recent post by Dan Don, who will be a TD for a mirror of Prison Bowl at Northwestern, suggests that perhaps most of the great teams from Illinois will probably prefer to stay local rather than come to NYC, which is understandable from a financial perspective. But I am just speculating here, obviously. And one can still hope that one or more might still wish to join the fun here while enjoying the Big Apple as well.

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 2:41 pm
by lchen
Hey everyone,
This tournament is coming up in less than a month so if you're on the Expressing Interest list, please register soon!

(Sorry for the late reply, Coach Powers. I haven't really heard from any teams that far away, and it doesn't really seem likely at this point.)

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:07 pm
by Edward Powers
That's OK Lily---I understand. Hopefully at least the teams on your "Interested" list will register, or ar least most of them. You already have an outstanding field, but the "interesteds" would surely add to your PB's lustre.

And, since registration has been somewhat less than you had hoped, perhaps I can make you smile a little by adding a 3rd team. Would that be OK?

PS---I am also sending you a brief email with a question or two about another matter in a few minutes; I trust you won't mind.

EDIT: For spelling. I seem to have suddenly lost the ability to spot typos & mispellings---my email to you should reveal this fact even more! Sorry!

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:09 pm
by lchen
Edward Powers wrote:adding a 3rd team
Of course! Thanks!

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:46 pm
by Black-throated Antshrike
March is actually turning out be be a. Very busy month for Charter, so if we can make it, it would probably be with just our A team.

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:19 am
by The Infanta
If you need help modding, I'm game.

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 6:34 pm
by TheKingInYellow
I think State College will come, with 2 teams and a buzzer. The teams may not be our standard A and B. I'll let you know when I have a definite roster.

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:18 pm
by lchen
With a bit more than two weeks left until the tournament, there's still time to register! Since we're nowhere near the field cap, schools can now register any number of teams.

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:48 pm
by Cassian
LASA will be bringing mostly B and C team players. It doesn't look at this moment like any of the A team will be there (unless they change their mind in the next couple of days).

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:06 pm
by TheKingInYellow
Sadly our driver had a change of plans, and State College will no longer be able to make it.

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:10 pm
by lchen
TheKingInYellow wrote:Sadly our driver had a change of plans, and State College will no longer be able to make it.
I'm sorry to hear that. Thanks for letting me know.

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:48 pm
by lchen
Hey everyone,
There are many spots left in the field, so registrations are still welcome! If you'd like to register, please email me by 10 PM (Eastern time) on Thursday. Thanks.

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:26 pm
by lchen
The field is now closed. The final field is as follows:

St. Joseph HS (3)
Bergen County Academies (2)
Kellenberg Memorial HS (2)
Dorman (1)
Georgetown Day School (1)
St. Anselm's Abbey School (1)
Detroit Catholic Central (1)
Scarsdale HS (2)
LASA (2)
Trinity (1)
Team Tribeca (2)
TOTAL: 18 teams.

Registration will be from 7:30 to 8:30. Come to room 402 when you arrive, and please try to arrive on time so that we can start round 1 at 8:45.

EDIT: We had a late cancellation, so we will actually have 18 teams.

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:06 am
by AKKOLADE
This tournament? Gonna own.

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:59 pm
by Down and out in Quintana Roo
Any updates on how this is going?

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:04 pm
by jlchockey94
1st: Dorman
2nd: DCC
3rd: St. Anselm's
4th: GDS
Tied-5th: Kellenberg A and LASA A

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:15 pm
by lchen
Final results:
1. Dorman
2. DCC
3. St. Anselm's
4. GDS
t5. LASA A, Kellenberg A

We're having trouble merging the prelim and playoff files, so here are are the stats separately. (I'll work on merging the two and post the combined stats later.)
Prelim stats
Playoff stats

Thank you to all the teams who came today! We hope you enjoyed the tournament. If you have any feedback about the question set, please email me at [email protected]. (Please don't discuss the set until the last mirror on 5/21/11.)

Special thanks go to Coach Powers, Brother Nigel, Ahmad Ragab, Doug Yetman, James Lasker, Maggie Tse, Marisol Brady, Tim Sun, and Tony Cheng for moderating today. I'd also like to thank Auroni Gupta, George Berry, and Tony Cheng for helping us edit the questions. Thanks so much, everyone!

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 10:50 pm
by WSchneider
... Wow... That is impressive... exactly half the field had a ppb greater than 20... wow...

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:52 pm
by Andrew's a Freshman
LASA A got no bonus points in their 675-30 win against St. Joseph C. I feel like that's affecting their stat line.

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:17 am
by Down and out in Quintana Roo
The bonus stats might need some looking at. Dorman averaged 32.86ppb in their game against Kellenberg A, and DCC averaged 33.33ppb in their game against Kellenberg B.

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:54 am
by Unicolored Jay
In addition to the above, LASA A had 0 PPB against St. Joseph C.

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:26 am
by lchen
Thanks for pointing that out. I'll fix it when I redo the stats.

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:58 pm
by Edward Powers
Thanks to Lily and the Hunter College HS quizbowl community for an enjoyable day, and congratulations to Dorman and DCC for an excellent tournament.

I do have one observation and a question: It seems that EVERY team in every bracket saw it's PPB go down in the playoffs by roughly 10-30% (this will be clearer when the bonus stats for the prelims are corrected).

Were the bonuses designed to be more difficult in rounds 6-10, or is this just a statistical anomaly?

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:11 pm
by jlchockey94
I think that a lot of the bonus problems are due to discrepancies between the number of actual tossups converted and the bonuses heard stat line (e.g.: Dorman got 16 toss-ups, and hopefully 16 bonuses, but they supposedly only heard 14 bonuses, giving them a 30+ ppb in one round).

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:49 pm
by lchen
Edward Powers wrote:I do have one observation and a question: It seems that EVERY team in every bracket saw it's PPB go down in the playoffs by roughly 10-30% (this will be clearer when the bonus stats for the prelims are corrected).

Were the bonuses designed to be more difficult in rounds 6-10, or is this just a statistical anomaly?
The increase in difficulty was intentional, but we probably underestimated it. We'll be tweaking this for future mirrors.

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:23 pm
by Nick
This is the second year in a row I've heard the Prison Bowl set and this is the second year in a row that I've walked away thinking it was one of the best high school sets there are. Good job, Hunter.

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:43 pm
by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)
lchen wrote:
Edward Powers wrote:I do have one observation and a question: It seems that EVERY team in every bracket saw it's PPB go down in the playoffs by roughly 10-30% (this will be clearer when the bonus stats for the prelims are corrected).

Were the bonuses designed to be more difficult in rounds 6-10, or is this just a statistical anomaly?
The increase in difficulty was intentional, but we probably underestimated it. We'll be tweaking this for future mirrors.
How great is the difference? I'm a little concerned given that my site is probably going to just run a full round robin, since I don't like the idea that we will have half the games be on packets that are intentionally written differently than the rest of the set. I think future mirrors that have other setups, like 7 game prelims, would also feel similarly.

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:01 pm
by kayli
I haven't seen or heard the set, but for future reference, I think it's pretty objectionable to have half a set be harder than the other half. For one, this can cause a myriad of difficulties for mirrors like Charlie's and other mirrors that won't have a 5 game RR then 5 game playoff format. It's hard enough trying to make a schedule for how many teams there are in the tournament without having to worry about keeping round robins balanced in terms of difficulty. Secondly, sets are likely to be mirrored in all sorts of locations with different quality teams playing. It's a bit disingenuous to advertise a certain difficulty then ramp it up, even just a little, in half the packets. Lastly, by increasing difficulty, you're not only making it harder for top tier teams, you're also making it harder for mid and low tier teams who, in the middle of the tournament, probably would not want an increase in difficulty for their consolation rounds.

I can understand the thinking behind this and I'm sure that this set was as great as it has been in the past (probably my favorite set to read, by the way), but quizbowl has a built in way of making sure more knowledgeable teams perform better--pyrimidality and easy-medium-hard bonus structures. So long as top teams aren't getting first line buzzes and consistent 30s (and even if they get pretty close), I think worrying about making sure the best team wins won't be too much of an issue. If you must, make it so the two finals packets are a bit harder (and say so) but not half the set.

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:53 pm
by AlphaQuizBowler
Ar$oni$t$ Get All the Girl$ wrote:I haven't seen or heard the set, but for future reference, I think it's pretty objectionable to have half a set be harder than the other half.
At the same time, I think it's entirely Hunter's prerogative to write the set the way they want it for their tournament. People mirroring should understand they're paying to use Prison Bowl, not to have a set written for their own tournament. I'm sure, though, that Hunter is willing to adapt the set in certain ways. If TD's really want a more uniform difficulty, they could just ask Hunter to re-randomize the set and spread out the harder questions throughout the rounds instead of concentrating them. It doesn't seem like a big issue.

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:59 pm
by lchen
Jeremy Gibbs Freesy Does It wrote:How great is the difference? I'm a little concerned given that my site is probably going to just run a full round robin, since I don't like the idea that we will have half the games be on packets that are intentionally written differently than the rest of the set. I think future mirrors that have other setups, like 7 game prelims, would also feel similarly.
I understand your concern and we will be editing the packets to make the difficulty more consistent for future mirrors. We hadn't realized the difference would cause such a drastic drop in ppb.
Ar$oni$t$ Get All the Girl$ wrote:It's a bit disingenuous to advertise a certain difficulty then ramp it up, even just a little, in half the packets.
Anyone who's heard the set is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel that both halves of the set could reasonably be described as "regular high school difficulty."
AlphaQuizBowler wrote:re-randomize the set and spread out the harder questions throughout the rounds instead of concentrating them.
We will do this.

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 1:06 am
by Edward Powers
I read at Prison Bowl yesterday and it was a wonderful set. I also periodically asked students throughout the day their impressions of the set and the general consensus seemed to be that the questions were challenging, interesting, accessible and fair. Further, I agree with AlphaQuizBowler that Hunter wrote Prison Bowl according to its own understanding of what an excellent yet fair set required and that is its prerogative. However, AlphaQuizBowler's idea of re-randomization can surely address the concerns of those hosting mirrors in the future, and Lily's immediate agreement to do this demonstrates her characteristic good will, both in improving the set and in responding to the reasonable concerns stated upthread. So, my guess is that future users of this set will be more than happy with it once they receive it.

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:27 pm
by lchen
Sorry for the delay. Here are the (hopefully) correct stats:
Prelim Stats
Playoff Stats
Combined Stats

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:22 pm
by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)
At the same time, I think it's entirely Hunter's prerogative to write the set the way they want it for their tournament. People mirroring should understand they're paying to use Prison Bowl, not to have a set written for their own tournament.
I'm satisfied with using Prison Bowl given Hunter's response to my question, but this is B.S. Tournaments can never ever predict their preliminary round format accurately. It is wholly possible that I could somehow end up with 18 teams at my tournament and then use 6 team prelim pools (although it is unlikely). It is also entirely possible that two teams could drop at the last minute from that scenario, forcing me to have to use 7 game prelim pools. It is also entirely possible I could end up with few enough teams to have to just run a single round robin. Me not being informed that Prison Bowl was initially planning on having 5 preliminary rounds of different difficulty could have been an actual problem that would have interfered with the results of our tournament, because we would have potentially had any number of rounds in the prelims being determined on packets that are fundamentally written differently than the rest of the set. I don't accept that I should just use that set no matter what format I end up with. (I also don't accept that tournaments should ever change the difficulty of rounds throughout the day in an intentional way in the first place). So no, I don't accept that it's just the editor's prerogative and that I should have to run my tournament at their whims (again, not that I'm accusing Hunter of this, this could apply to any set).

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:47 pm
by Rompimientos del Centauro
The questions were never written and organized with any specific format in mind regarding bracketing, teams present, etc - they were intended as regular difficulty high school sets. The resulting difficulty gradation between the first five and last five packets used was a result of wanting to gradually increase difficulty [slightly] over the entire set - tournament format was never a factor in the packets' difficulty.

I suppose others on my team may be able to say this more eloquently, or address this issue in another way.

Re: Prison Bowl IV @ Hunter HS, NYC (3/5/2011)

Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:50 pm
by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)
lchen wrote:Sorry for the delay. Here are the (hopefully) correct stats:
Prelim Stats
Playoff Stats
Combined Stats
What's up with Scarsdale A player?