Packet 9

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Packet 9

Post by Dan-Don » Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:42 pm

T2. I believe there's a huge cliff here at "Sermons on the..."

T6. He has a real Greek name too.

T9. This leadin rewards solely list knowledge. The game of memorizing Nobel laureates by year is silly. Use a real fact.

T10. Questions that do not begin "This x" need to be edited carefully. In particular this question should accept Humbert Humbert before "this novel" is read. Or it should just read "The protagonist of this novel..." Also please note that the protagonist of Lolita is Humbert Humbert not Humber Humbert. Finally, interrogative sentences end in questions marks.

T11. This question begins, "these entities" but does not accept "ferromagnet(s)." When editing answer lines, it it best to assume that potential moderators know very little. I'm also not a fan of this construction for giveaways--ask a question or make a command. That's a style thing though.

T15. The leadin here is an annoying example of quizbowlese and a major grammatical error. You can't just say "this" without an antecedent.

T16. This question should accept "The Daily Show with Craig Kilborn" until "1999" is read. I also don't understand why there's a comma before Jon Stewart's name in the giveaway.

T17. The fifth line should say "whose sadness."

T18. Eastwick, not Eastwicki.

T19. I don't understand the use of the semicolon in the fourth line. There should be a period before FTP. And it should also accept _Timur_ the Lame I think.

T20. Is Beatrice a "plant-like creature" in Rappaccini's Daughter? I thought she was just poisonous. The title of his most novel is The Scarlet Letter, not a A Scarlet Letter. The Scarlet Letter is also a tossup elsewhere in the set. I guess Hawthorne is an important enough writer to justify a tossup on his most famous novel as well as his short stories, but there should not be such an overlap.

B1. The sentence in the third part does not make sense. Drop the word "of."

B3. Also accept "reference frame" or "other word forms."

B4. I think the leadin is missing a word or something.

B5. This is extremely difficult.

B9. Usually just 'Huck Finn" and 'Huckleberry Finn" are acceptable.

B11. I don't understand the theme of this bonus other than "chemistry." Correct me if I'm wrong.

B15. Since you say he's #16, you should just require Carl Gustaf. His real name, which is equally acceptable, is Carl Gustaf Folke Hubertus.
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Re: Packet 9

Post by Boeing X-20, Please! » Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:55 pm

Just to add to Dan's comments,

TU 2 - I would seriously consider increasing the difficulty of this tossup as well as adding a real leadin there.
"This figure recited three passages from Deuteronomy. The Gospel of Matthew notes him killing a fig tree. After delivering the Sermons on the Plan and Mount, this figure rode a donkey into Jerusalem during Passover and kicked a bunch of (*) moneylenders out of Herod’s temple. He healed some blind people and lepers, changed water into wine at a wedding, walked on water, and raised Lazarus from the dead. Betrayed by one of his followers planting a kiss on his cheek, for 10 points, name this central figure in Christianity, a carpenter from Nazareth notably nailed to a tree by some Romans."
The first clue is not helpful as it merely gives you an idea that this figure is from the part of the Bible after Deuteronomy given that there is no explanation about the significance or the context of those passages. The fig tree story I thought was very well-known, but that could just be my skewedness. Sermon on the Mount is one of Jesus's most famous actions, and knowing what Palm Sunday is should not get you 15 points. The clues after Herod's temple seem to have no explanation whatsoever and are just a list of things that Jesus was reported to have done, i.e. there is no mention of the Wedding at Cana as being the place where he changed water into wine and assuming that this tossup has not actually been gotten yet, it incredibly rewards lateral thinking in that those clues are basically "this guy from the bible, he you know did lots of miracles and things and he's kinda famous or something." This tossup basically feels like you/Kirun gave up halfway through the tossup and went "Screw it, everybody will have gotten it by now, lets just finish this and move on to the next tossup instead of actually fixing this tossup into something that is not incredibly terrible."
Dan-Don wrote: T9. This leadin rewards solely list knowledge. The game of memorizing Nobel laureates by year is silly. Use a real fact.
Also, this seems to have a major cliff in that there is absolutely no description, or at least significant description if you consider the Pulitzer Prize as description, of Gandhi's Truth and Gandhi's Truth is a fairly well-known work of his. The fact that there is no description of it could lead to buzzer races and not differentiating between teams who actually know what works are about as opposed to those who just know titles, which I believe is what dan was talking about with the list knowledge aspect.
T11. This question begins, "these entities" but does not accept "ferromagnet(s)." When editing answer lines, it it best to assume that potential moderators know very little. I'm also not a fan of this construction for giveaways--ask a question or make a command. That's a style thing though.
Also, I think the leadin to this, "At the University of Heidelberg, permeability of these entities depends on a certain field according to the Stoletov curve. " is missing some number of words, as I'm sure the Stoletov Curve was discovered while he worked at the University of Heidelberg or something, as opposed to the Stoletov Curve only existing in conditions where the location is the University of Heidelberg.

T13 - This may just be me, but I think the Swiss Water Process is more important to food distribution and etc. than the real effects of caffeine on the body or aspects that would warrant caffeine being tossed up other than "This thing is in coffee! We drink that!"

TU 20 - The Omar Aqta leadin seems incredibly subject to fakery, seeing as that clue has been used in numerous tossups as leadins before (not that the use of a clue before necessitates it not being used again) and does not seem to have as much of a historical significance as other clues you could use.

Bonus 5 seems to be significantly harder than the rest of the bonuses in this set, or at least packet. There will clearly always be difficulty outliers, but when you have this bonus and Huck FInn/Twain/Aunt Polly in the same packet, clearly something is out of order.
B9. Usually just 'Huck Finn" and 'Huckleberry Finn" are acceptable.
Definitely.

EDIT: Note Dan changed some things while I was writing this, so there might be a repeat point of what Dan said in some place without me quoting him.
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Re: Packet 9

Post by The King's Flight to the Scots » Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:26 am

Secretary of Bobcats wrote:Omar Aqta
Who?
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Re: Packet 9

Post by Boeing X-20, Please! » Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:34 am

Cernel Joson wrote:
Secretary of Bobcats wrote:Omar Aqta
Who?
"19. One legend about this figure says that he had his calligrapher Omar Aqta inscribe the entire Qu'ran on a single ring."

This could just be a "easy since I know it fallacy" but was both the leadin to
2006 ACF Fall - Packet by Harvard B, Maryland B, and Oklahoma B - #20 [report this tossup]
History — World
He supposedly commissioned the calligrapher Omar Aqta to fit the entire Quran on a single ring,

and

2008 ACF Fall - Packet by Andrew Hart - #18 [report this tossup]
History — World
This man allegedly was buried in a coffin of pure ivory in Gur-e Amir, and his legendary calligrapher Omar Aqta supposedly wrote the entire Quran on a ring.

Like I said, it might have more historical significance than I know as I am lacking in a significant amount of Tamerlane knowledge, but it's also my point that I was able to get an easy 15 off of it purely from having read a tossup and, due to my moderator also claiming something along the lines of "yeah God, I don't know why that's there." and through discussion with other people at the tournament, it continues to seem to me to be a bad clue.

(Sandy/Greene's Tossup: 19. One legend about this figure says that he had his calligrapher Omar Aqta inscribe the entire Qu'ran on a single ring. He achieved power by killing his brother-in-law and former ally Amir Husayn. In another campaign by this man, he sacked Sarai Berke, capital of his longtime rival and leader of the (*) Golden Horde Tokhtamysh, while in another campaign; this man defeated the Knights Hospitallers at Smyrna Known for his violent sack of Delhi and for building giant pyramids of skulls, FTP, name this great-great-grandson of Genghis Khan who ruled from his capital of Samarkand and whose name refers to an injury sustained to his foot.)
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Re: Packet 9

Post by The King's Flight to the Scots » Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:37 am

Secretary of Bobcats wrote:
Cernel Joson wrote:
Secretary of Bobcats wrote:Omar Aqta
Who?
"19. One legend about this figure says that he had his calligrapher Omar Aqta inscribe the entire Qu'ran on a single ring."

This could just be a "easy since I know it fallacy" but was both the leadin to
2006 ACF Fall - Packet by Harvard B, Maryland B, and Oklahoma B - #20 [report this tossup]
History — World
He supposedly commissioned the calligrapher Omar Aqta to fit the entire Quran on a single ring,

and

2008 ACF Fall - Packet by Andrew Hart - #18 [report this tossup]
History — World
This man allegedly was buried in a coffin of pure ivory in Gur-e Amir, and his legendary calligrapher Omar Aqta supposedly wrote the entire Quran on a ring.

Like I said, it might have more historical significance than I know being lacking in a significant amount of Tamerlane knowledge, but it's also my point that I was able to get an easy 15 off of it purely from having read a tossup and, due to my moderator also claiming something along the lines of "yeah God, I don't know why that's there." and through discussion with other people at the tournament, it continues to seem to me to be a bad clue.
Oh that dude. Maybe it would have been better to find another lead-in, but it's high school. If whoever wrote the question was honestly unaware that that was a stale clue, it might be fine.
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Re: Packet 9

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:17 am

Singling out that Omar Aqta clue is a perfect example of the "I know it so its easy" fallacy. Looking at ACF Fall leadins to determine something's high school appropriateness is fundamentally misguided.
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Re: Packet 9

Post by Boeing X-20, Please! » Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:17 pm

Secretary of Bobcats wrote:This could just be a "easy since I know it fallacy"
Jeremy Gibbs Freesy Does It wrote:Singling out that Omar Aqta clue is a perfect example of the "I know it so its easy" fallacy. Looking at ACF Fall leadins to determine something's high school appropriateness is fundamentally misguided.
I notably only used ACF Fall because it was the easiest question place to search. I've definitely seen that clue in other places, but like I said I'm not saying it's a bad clue because it was used in x tossup in y packet (althought I do consider it a contributing factor to appropriateness of clues), I'm just asserting that in general I think it is a bad clue for reasons which I pointed out earlier, which I guess you decided to ignore.
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Re: Packet 9

Post by Auroni » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:08 pm

It's no tragedy that someone unwittingly used a lead-in that was the lead-in to many prior tossups on the same thing, and it's appalling to think anyone should be required to even glance at the packet archive when writing questions.
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Re: Packet 9

Post by The King's Flight to the Scots » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:25 pm

every time i refresh i have a new name wrote:It's no tragedy that someone unwittingly used a lead-in that was the lead-in to many prior tossups on the same thing, and it's appalling to think anyone should be required to even glance at the packet archive when writing questions.
I still contend that the packet archive can be a useful metric to evaluate your question against. For example, if I found that clue while I was writing an ACF Regionals tossup and decided it would make a great lead-in, an archive search would dissuade me from writing that ill-starred tossup. I agree with you, though, that there's nothing wrong with this particular case. Cherry-picking lead-ins that come up a lot is a poor idea, but this seems like a good faith effort appropriate for its level of difficulty.
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Re: Packet 9

Post by Auroni » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:31 pm

Cernel Joson wrote:
every time i refresh i have a new name wrote:It's no tragedy that someone unwittingly used a lead-in that was the lead-in to many prior tossups on the same thing, and it's appalling to think anyone should be required to even glance at the packet archive when writing questions.
I still contend that the packet archive can be a useful metric to evaluate your question against.
I don't doubt this, but I really don't think that looking at the packet archive is a step taken to ensure a quality tossup, much less a step that anyone should be required to take. Hundreds of the best questions each year are written without any thought about the packet archive, and hundreds of innovative lead-ins are born with a little bit of creativity and thinking outside the box, and not from the residue of a large pot of lead-ins where the previously used ones have been cherry-picked out.
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Re: Packet 9

Post by Unicolored Jay » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:32 pm

According to Jarret, he had also written a lead-in on that tossup about Tamerlane burning camels during a battle or something like that, but it was taken out.

Edit: grammar
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Re: Packet 9

Post by Deviant Insider » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:51 pm

Omar Aqta is not a common clue.

This packet starts with some tossup answers that are difficult to write on. The Congress of Vienna is a very famous meeting, so when you're in a high school match and hear about a bunch of Europeans negotiating, you start thinking Congress of Vienna. Similarly, when you are trying to think of a war in a high school match and hear a bunch of names that sound Northern European/Scandinavian, you start thinking 30 Years War. Jesus Christ is Jesus Christ. If you're going to write about these things, which isn't necessarily a bad idea, you have to find a tight balance between giving specific clues so that people who know stuff can answer but not give transparent clues. I don't think that the description of Talleyrand fits that bill, but maybe I'm wrong. You don't want to name Matthew or the Sermons early in a Christ tossup--it probably would be better to start with some philosopher/theologian's description of him, or his treatment by a non-Christian religion. I think that Christian IV losing the Battle of Wolgast probably is fraudable. I think any of us could improve as a writer by finding a well-written tossup on basic topics like these and figuring out how those tossups threaded the needle of giving away information that is useful to people who know their stuff but useless to people who don't. The giveaways on these topics are easy to write, and personally I don't see why the 2nd half of the Jesus question is so problematic, but the leadins and middle clues are very difficult to write.

On the Fuentes question, I think that if you are writing this for the high school level you need to keep in mind that it is a difficult tossup. Because of this, I would spend less space on Columbus Unborn and Aura, probably using only one of those two works in a question, so that more clues could be given related to Old Gringo and Artemio Cruz.

With the cartilage question, this could just be the know it=easy fallacy, but I think that chondrocytes is easier than many of the clues that follow it.

I think that Archimedes probably should have started with a deeper clue.

I've written worse tournaments than this one.
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Re: Packet 9

Post by Huang » Thu Nov 04, 2010 7:57 pm

Just so no one takes my lack of posting as a sign of indifference, I'm duly taking notes on what to improve in packet 9. Feel free to continue offering criticism.
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Re: Packet 9

Post by Unicolored Jay » Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:27 pm

Westwon wrote:
On the Fuentes question, I think that if you are writing this for the high school level you need to keep in mind that it is a difficult tossup. Because of this, I would spend less space on Columbus Unborn and Aura, probably using only one of those two works in a question, so that more clues could be given related to Old Gringo and Artemio Cruz.

Regarding these two points:

I think Latin American lit in general is a bit hard for the regular high school level. At OSU, which didn't have spectacular teams, that, Borges, and some other guy I can't remember not named Garcia Marquez went dead.

Edit: That guy I was thinking of was Paz.
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Re: Packet 9

Post by The King's Flight to the Scots » Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:24 am

Judy Sucks a Lemon for Breakfast wrote:
Westwon wrote:
On the Fuentes question, I think that if you are writing this for the high school level you need to keep in mind that it is a difficult tossup. Because of this, I would spend less space on Columbus Unborn and Aura, probably using only one of those two works in a question, so that more clues could be given related to Old Gringo and Artemio Cruz.

Regarding these two points:

I think Latin American lit in general is a bit hard for the regular high school level. At OSU, which didn't have spectacular teams, that, Borges, and some other guy I can't remember not named Garcia Marquez went dead.

Edit: That guy I was thinking of was Paz.
Better to ask about Latin American lit than South African lit.

But yeah, I agree that Paz and Fuentes are a little hard for most regular high school sets. Literature is a tricky subject in general, though.
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Re: Packet 9

Post by Dan-Don » Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:06 am

Cernel Joson wrote:But yeah, I agree that Paz and Fuentes are a little hard for most regular high school sets. Literature is a tricky subject in general, though.
Yeah I was on a field trip through Chicago's Mexican neighborhood last year with my Spanish class, and I asked the first-generation Mexican tour guide about Mexican lit. He'd never heard of Fuentes, but he said Paz was extremely important. On a related note, I talked to a grad student in Arabic studies at Northwestern, and she didn't know Mahfouz. Literature is getting pretty crazy, not that that's Sandy or DAFT's fault.
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Re: Packet 9

Post by The King's Flight to the Scots » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:30 am

Dan-Don wrote:
Cernel Joson wrote:But yeah, I agree that Paz and Fuentes are a little hard for most regular high school sets. Literature is a tricky subject in general, though.
Yeah I was on a field trip through Chicago's Mexican neighborhood last year with my Spanish class, and I asked the first-generation Mexican tour guide about Mexican lit. He'd never heard of Fuentes, but he said Paz was extremely important. On a related note, I talked to a grad student in Arabic studies at Northwestern, and she didn't know Mahfouz. Literature is getting pretty crazy, not that that's Sandy or DAFT's fault.
I don't think that's very representative, honestly--Fuentes is legitimately the third or fourth most important Latin American novelist, so we should definitely ask about him at an appropriate level. Maybe tour guide preferred poetry over novels or something. This anecdote does demonstrate how tricky literature is as a category, though.

I wouldn't be surprised if Mahfouz was way harder than we think.
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Re: Packet 9

Post by Rufous-capped Thornbill » Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:03 pm

Judy Sucks a Lemon for Breakfast wrote:According to Jarret, he had also written a lead-in on that tossup about Tamerlane burning camels during a battle or something like that, but it was taken out.

Edit: grammar
This is true. My original leadin was a badass clue I found about Tamerlane lighting some camels on fire to disperse War Elephants.

http://poeforward.blogspot.com/2010/02/ ... 5-rip.html (also includes the clue about Omar Aqta)

http://delhimagic.blogspot.com/2007/08/ ... delhi.html

I apologize if you found what I thought was an interesting accomplishment (supposedly) of Tamerlane to be too "stock clue"-ish for your tastes, whoever it offended.
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Re: Packet 9

Post by Huang » Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:25 pm

Inkana7 wrote:
Judy Sucks a Lemon for Breakfast wrote:According to Jarret, he had also written a lead-in on that tossup about Tamerlane burning camels during a battle or something like that, but it was taken out.

Edit: grammar
This is true. My original leadin was a badass clue I found about Tamerlane lighting some camels on fire to disperse War Elephants.

http://poeforward.blogspot.com/2010/02/ ... 5-rip.html (also includes the clue about Omar Aqta)

http://delhimagic.blogspot.com/2007/08/ ... delhi.html

I apologize if you found what I thought was an interesting accomplishment (supposedly) of Tamerlane to be too "stock clue"-ish for your tastes, whoever it offended.
Jarret, many of your early clues got cut simply because your tossups were already well over 7 lines so I figured it would be more optimal to just include the later clues. I'll look back at the original one and see if I can fit it back into the final version.
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Re: Packet 9

Post by Rufous-capped Thornbill » Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:44 pm

Huang wrote:
Inkana7 wrote:
Judy Sucks a Lemon for Breakfast wrote:According to Jarret, he had also written a lead-in on that tossup about Tamerlane burning camels during a battle or something like that, but it was taken out.

Edit: grammar
This is true. My original leadin was a badass clue I found about Tamerlane lighting some camels on fire to disperse War Elephants.

http://poeforward.blogspot.com/2010/02/ ... 5-rip.html (also includes the clue about Omar Aqta)

http://delhimagic.blogspot.com/2007/08/ ... delhi.html

I apologize if you found what I thought was an interesting accomplishment (supposedly) of Tamerlane to be too "stock clue"-ish for your tastes, whoever it offended.
Jarret, many of your early clues got cut simply because your tossups were already well over 7 lines so I figured it would be more optimal to just include the later clues. I'll look back at the original one and see if I can fit it back into the final version.
It's no big deal. I wrote really long tossups to give you a lot of clues to work with when editing. I originally had the Ring Clue as my leadin, but found the camel story too interesting not to put in there.

EDIT: Spelling, Substance
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Re: Packet 9

Post by Faiyad » Sun Nov 28, 2010 12:12 am

I thought that this was much to easy to be the lead-in for TU-5:
Proteoglycan is produced by chondrocytes, the only cells contained in this type of tissue.

ANSWER: cartilage
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Re: Packet 9

Post by Huang » Sun Nov 28, 2010 12:27 am

Faiyad wrote:I thought that this was much to easy to be the lead-in for TU-5:
Proteoglycan is produced by chondrocytes, the only cells contained in this type of tissue.

ANSWER: cartilage
Relative to the other tossups, yes. I learned about chondrocytes in my anatomy-focused AP Bio class last year, so I figured that people (two in this thread already) would say it was an easy leadin, which, relatively, it is. As for the pyramidal structure of the tossup, I'm still not convinced (yet) that chondrocytes is easier than epiphyseal plate, or any of the other middle clues.
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Re: Packet 9

Post by Faiyad » Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:06 am

Huang wrote:
Faiyad wrote:I thought that this was much to easy to be the lead-in for TU-5:
Proteoglycan is produced by chondrocytes, the only cells contained in this type of tissue.

ANSWER: cartilage
Relative to the other tossups, yes. I learned about chondrocytes in my anatomy-focused AP Bio class last year, so I figured that people (two in this thread already) would say it was an easy leadin, which, relatively, it is. As for the pyramidal structure of the tossup, I'm still not convinced (yet) that chondrocytes is easier than epiphyseal plate, or any of the other middle clues.
Understandable.
In my sophomore year Medical Terminolgy class, "chondr-" was one of the terms we learned as meaning "cartilage." Someone of similar aptitude could easily reason the relationship between "chondrocyte" and "cartilage tissue" before even mentioning epiphiseal plate or perichondrium by using that knowledge. Plus, it was one of the first things we learned in my Honors Anatomy Class.

In my opinon, this clue should have been after the epiphyseal plate, at least. Looking back, the whole tossup seemed a much easier than the rest in that packet.

EDIT: Pronoun confusion.
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Re: Packet 9

Post by Huang » Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:30 am

Faiyad wrote:
Huang wrote:
Faiyad wrote:I thought that this was much to easy to be the lead-in for TU-5:
Proteoglycan is produced by chondrocytes, the only cells contained in this type of tissue.

ANSWER: cartilage
Relative to the other tossups, yes. I learned about chondrocytes in my anatomy-focused AP Bio class last year, so I figured that people (two in this thread already) would say it was an easy leadin, which, relatively, it is. As for the pyramidal structure of the tossup, I'm still not convinced (yet) that chondrocytes is easier than epiphyseal plate, or any of the other middle clues.
Understandable.
In my sophomore year Medical Terminolgy class, "chondr-" was one of the terms we learned as meaning "cartilage." Someone of similar aptitude could easily reason the relationship between "chondrocyte" and "cartilage tissue" before even mentioning epiphiseal plate or perichondrium by using that knowledge. Plus, it was one of the first things we learned in my Honors Anatomy Class.

In my opinon, this clue should have been after the epiphyseal plate, at least. Looking back, the whole tossup seemed a much easier than the rest in that packet.

EDIT: Pronoun confusion.
Well, right, but I could form a similar argument for osteocytes in a bone tossup. I think we can both agree that in such a tossup osteocytes should be mentioned before cartilage, or any other structures surrounding the bone.
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Re: Packet 9

Post by AKKOLADE » Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:46 am

Faiyad wrote:I thought that this was much to easy to be the lead-in for TU-5:
Proteoglycan is produced by chondrocytes, the only cells contained in this type of tissue.

ANSWER: cartilage
If it's intended to be for a regular high school set, you're fairly wrong here.
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Re: Packet 9

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:49 am

I will use that as another opportunity to whine about how you should have started the tossup with the phrase "This tissue" instead of how it ended up.
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Re: Packet 9

Post by Faiyad » Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:50 am

Huang wrote:
Faiyad wrote:
Huang wrote:
Faiyad wrote:I thought that this was much to easy to be the lead-in for TU-5:
Proteoglycan is produced by chondrocytes, the only cells contained in this type of tissue.

ANSWER: cartilage
Relative to the other tossups, yes. I learned about chondrocytes in my anatomy-focused AP Bio class last year, so I figured that people (two in this thread already) would say it was an easy leadin, which, relatively, it is. As for the pyramidal structure of the tossup, I'm still not convinced (yet) that chondrocytes is easier than epiphyseal plate, or any of the other middle clues.
Understandable.
In my sophomore year Medical Terminolgy class, "chondr-" was one of the terms we learned as meaning "cartilage." Someone of similar aptitude could easily reason the relationship between "chondrocyte" and "cartilage tissue" before even mentioning epiphiseal plate or perichondrium by using that knowledge. Plus, it was one of the first things we learned in my Honors Anatomy Class.

In my opinon, this clue should have been after the epiphyseal plate, at least. Looking back, the whole tossup seemed a much easier than the rest in that packet.

EDIT: Pronoun confusion.
Well, right, but I could form a similar argument for osteocytes in a bone tossup. I think we can both agree that in such a tossup osteocytes should be mentioned before cartilage, or any other structures surrounding the bone.
No, I still disagree, haha. I learned osteocyte as a fundamental unit of bone. To me, it would be one of the final, identifying clues. I would definitely put cartilage before osteocyte.
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Re: Packet 9

Post by Faiyad » Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:50 am

Fred wrote:
Faiyad wrote:I thought that this was much to easy to be the lead-in for TU-5:
Proteoglycan is produced by chondrocytes, the only cells contained in this type of tissue.

ANSWER: cartilage
If it's intended to be for a regular high school set, you're fairly wrong here.
How so? If you don't mind me asking.
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Re: Packet 9

Post by Huang » Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:55 am

Faiyad wrote: No, I still disagree, haha. I learned osteocyte as a fundamental unit of bone. To me, it would be one of the final, identifying clues. I would definitely put cartilage before osteocyte.
Then you have a warped sense of difficulty that probably stems from learning via binary association
Jeremy Gibbs Freesy Does It wrote:I will use that as another opportunity to whine about how you should have started the tossup with the phrase "This tissue" instead of how it ended up.
Fixed
Sandy

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Re: Packet 9

Post by Faiyad » Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:00 am

Huang wrote:
Faiyad wrote: No, I still disagree, haha. I learned osteocyte as a fundamental unit of bone. To me, it would be one of the final, identifying clues. I would definitely put cartilage before osteocyte.
Then you have a warped sense of difficulty that probably stems from learning via binary association
Okay. Lets leave it at that...
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Re: Packet 9

Post by AKKOLADE » Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:06 am

Faiyad wrote:
Fred wrote:
Faiyad wrote:I thought that this was much to easy to be the lead-in for TU-5:
Proteoglycan is produced by chondrocytes, the only cells contained in this type of tissue.

ANSWER: cartilage
If it's intended to be for a regular high school set, you're fairly wrong here.
How so? If you don't mind me asking.
I really don't think that knowledge is that common, and to me, it seems to be a pretty acceptable first line clue for cartilage. A good science player will know it and be rewarded with points, which is not a problem to me.
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Re: Packet 9

Post by Faiyad » Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:11 am

Fred wrote:
Faiyad wrote:
Fred wrote:
Faiyad wrote:I thought that this was much to easy to be the lead-in for TU-5:
Proteoglycan is produced by chondrocytes, the only cells contained in this type of tissue.

ANSWER: cartilage
If it's intended to be for a regular high school set, you're fairly wrong here.
How so? If you don't mind me asking.
I really don't think that knowledge is that common, and to me, it seems to be a pretty acceptable first line clue for cartilage. A good science player will know it and be rewarded with points, which is not a problem to me.
Alrighty. I still find that clue extremely easy. To each his own, I suppose.
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Re: Packet 9

Post by Huang » Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:19 am

Faiyad wrote: Alrighty. I still find that clue extremely easy. To each his own, I suppose.
Yet, besides a off-handed reference to a class you took in high school that most other high schoolers do not take, you've provided zero reasoning for why the chondrocytes clue is misplaced. We both agree it's "easy," given we've both taken classes that studied it, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily a bad leadin. If you want to present evidence that I am wrong in thinking that the epiphyseal plate clue (or any other middle clue) is more accessible than the chondrocyte clue, then please do so.
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Re: Packet 9

Post by Faiyad » Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:30 am

Huang wrote:
Faiyad wrote: Alrighty. I still find that clue extremely easy. To each his own, I suppose.
Yet, besides a off-handed reference to a class you took in high school that most other high schoolers do not take, you've provided zero reasoning for why the chondrocytes clue is misplaced. We both agree it's "easy," given we've both taken classes that studied it, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily a bad leadin. If you want to present evidence that I am wrong in thinking that the epiphyseal plate clue (or any other middle clue) is more accessible than the chondrocyte clue, then please do so.
I am not asking for it to get changed. I was just giving an opinion. This is a discussion, isn't it?
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Re: Packet 9

Post by Huang » Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:45 am

Faiyad wrote:I am not asking for it to get changed.

Then why even make a post complaining about how "easy" chondrocytes is?
I was just giving an opinion.
Without any sort of reasoning? That's no good...
This is a discussion, isn't it?
There's a specific reason for why a forum was created for DAFT: so people could offer valid criticism so the next two mirrors would have a better set. I'm fairly certain the purpose wasn't to give people a chance to offer unsupported opinions on difficulty, and then to immediately rescind said opinions after being asked to offer evidence. I'm genuinely interested in learning why I'm wrong about the accessibility of epiphyseal plate vs. chondrocytes. If you're unwilling to enlighten me, then I think you're confused about the general purpose of this specific forum.
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