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He said, she said

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:01 am
by rchschem
I am interested in how coaches and moderators resolve the problem of teams offering conflicting versions of answers. For example:

Team A buzzes and says "The Invisible Man" and the mod signals correct. Team B challenges, saying the answer was (and should be) "Invisible Man." Team A says "that's what I said." The mod apparently did not hear the "the", though everyone else in the room did. Variations on this include Team B challenging by saying "That's not what he said," etc. The issue is a clear conflict between what was said and what was heard (or not heard).

(Note this is not a question about Invisible Man as an answer, just as an example). Ideally the moderator would hear the complete answer, but hey, people are human. I know how I've handled this (moderator's discretion) but wondered how it was resolved in other people's situations.

Eric

Re: He said, she said

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:39 am
by dtaylor4
rchschem wrote:I am interested in how coaches and moderators resolve the problem of teams offering conflicting versions of answers. For example:

Team A buzzes and says "The Invisible Man" and the mod signals correct. Team B challenges, saying the answer was (and should be) "Invisible Man." Team A says "that's what I said." The mod apparently did not hear the "the", though everyone else in the room did. Variations on this include Team B challenging by saying "That's not what he said," etc. The issue is a clear conflict between what was said and what was heard (or not heard).

(Note this is not a question about Invisible Man as an answer, just as an example). Ideally the moderator would hear the complete answer, but hey, people are human. I know how I've handled this (moderator's discretion) but wondered how it was resolved in other people's situations.

Eric
If there's an (unbiased) scorekeeper, ask for a second opinion. Otherwise, moderator's call stands. This is not professional sport, we don't have cameras, moderators can't go to the booth/rectangular god.

Re: He said, she said

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:34 am
by Down and out in Quintana Roo
I've realized 2 seconds later what i misheard and finally comprehended what i should have heard a few times, then corrected myself and ruled right... but other than that, there's not much you can do. Moderator's call has to stand since there won't be any concrete evidence of what was really said.

I have had a couple instances of very honest and respectable teams saying "yeah, actually i did mess that up" or something along those lines. Last year i had a buzz on One Hundred Years of Solitude at the Maryland Spring tournament where the player said "A Hundred Years of Solitude" (i really hate being picky on this answer) and i initially ruled correct. But immediately the other team pointed out the inaccuracy, i asked the player that initially answered what he really said and he admitted to not using the perfectly correct title.

If you do not have honest teams present, or if you have teams that will do anything to win including using deception in this rare scenario, it sure makes it more difficult.

Re: He said, she said

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:37 am
by jonah
Carangoides ciliarius wrote:the player said "A Hundred Years of Solitude" (i really hate being picky on this answer) and i initially ruled correct. But immediately the other team pointed out the inaccuracy, i asked the player that initially answered what he really said and he admitted to not using the perfectly correct title.
He should've been given points. "A Hundred Years of Solitude" is a very plausible translation of the original Spanish title, Cien años de soledad.

Re: He said, she said

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:47 am
by Down and out in Quintana Roo
jonah wrote:
Carangoides ciliarius wrote:the player said "A Hundred Years of Solitude" (i really hate being picky on this answer) and i initially ruled correct. But immediately the other team pointed out the inaccuracy, i asked the player that initially answered what he really said and he admitted to not using the perfectly correct title.
He should've been given points. "A Hundred Years of Solitude" is a very plausible translation of the original Spanish title, Cien años de soledad.
I've seen numerous packets specifically stating not to accept that answer.
NAREN 2010 wrote:4.Answer the following about a certain book that takes place in Macondo for 10 points each.
[10] This magical realist novel tracks generations of the Buendia family.
ANSWER: One Hundred Years of Solitude [or Cien Anos de Soledad; do not accept "A Hundred Years of Solitude"]
[10] This Colombian author of One Hundred Years of Solitude also wrote works such as Chronicle of a Death Foretold and Love in the Time of Cholera.
ANSWER: Gabriel Garcia Marquez [prompt on "Marquez"]
[10] This matriarch of One Hundred Years of Solitude is married to Jose Arcadio Buendia and is the novel's longest-lived character, dying after shrinking to the size of a fetus.
ANSWER: Ursula Iguaran [accept either name]

Re: He said, she said

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:54 am
by AKKOLADE
I'm far from an expert on that, but that seems like a really silly and inaccurate "do not accept" prompt.

Re: He said, she said

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:55 am
by jonah
Carangoides ciliarius wrote:
jonah wrote:
Carangoides ciliarius wrote:the player said "A Hundred Years of Solitude" (i really hate being picky on this answer) and i initially ruled correct. But immediately the other team pointed out the inaccuracy, i asked the player that initially answered what he really said and he admitted to not using the perfectly correct title.
He should've been given points. "A Hundred Years of Solitude" is a very plausible translation of the original Spanish title, Cien años de soledad.
I've seen numerous packets specifically stating not to accept that answer.
NAREN 2010 wrote:4.Answer the following about a certain book that takes place in Macondo for 10 points each.
[10] This magical realist novel tracks generations of the Buendia family.
ANSWER: One Hundred Years of Solitude [or Cien Anos de Soledad; do not accept "A Hundred Years of Solitude"]
[10] This Colombian author of One Hundred Years of Solitude also wrote works such as Chronicle of a Death Foretold and Love in the Time of Cholera.
ANSWER: Gabriel Garcia Marquez [prompt on "Marquez"]
[10] This matriarch of One Hundred Years of Solitude is married to Jose Arcadio Buendia and is the novel's longest-lived character, dying after shrinking to the size of a fetus.
ANSWER: Ursula Iguaran [accept either name]
On the other hand, HSAPQ set 9 and its VHSL set from last year indicate specifically to accept A..., as does the 2001 NSC. I searched quite comprehensively and found no other packets instructing that that answer is not to be accepted, and in any case it's simply wrong, per ACF rules, to not accept it.

Re: He said, she said

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:00 am
by Cody
Cien is "one hundred" in Spanish. "One hundred" and "A hundred" are exactly the same in the English language, so it can be translated either way; both are therefore acceptable.

Re: He said, she said

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:31 am
by dtaylor4
Carangoides ciliarius wrote:If you do not have honest teams present, or if you have teams that will do anything to win including using deception in this rare scenario, it sure makes it more difficult.
Problem is, you can never make a 100% judgment.

Re: He said, she said

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:37 am
by Skepticism and Animal Feed
Moderator perception isn't protestable, for the precise reason that nobody wants a quizbowl game to degenerate into a "he said, she said" contest. The tyranny of the moderator's mishearing is the lesser evil.

Re: He said, she said

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:15 pm
by Stained Diviner
While moderator perception isn't protestable in the sense that you can appeal to the TD, because the only reasonable ruling for a TD would be in favor of the moderator, I don't think teams she be precluded from making a brief, respectful appeal to the moderator about what they said, giving the moderator a chance to change his mind. I also think that moderators should agree with students when the students are arguing to give points to the other team or take points away from their own team.

Re: He said, she said

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:17 pm
by Joshua Rutsky
Absolutely true. Frankly, however, it should also be incumbent on both the coaches to act as unbiased listeners as well. If you are a coach, and you know your team has gotten something it shouldn't have gotten or you know that you "got away with a call", and you don't actively say something and cede the points on the question, what sort of model are you? The proudest moment of my coaching career was the one where one of my team members acknowledged having given an incorrect answer after being called correct and ceding the points. It showed the sort of integrity and class that I hope quiz bowl has at the heart of the game, and the spirit of fair play that needs to be remembered by competitors everywhere. It is very frustrating to me when I run into a coach who is more interested in "gamesmanship" than in sportsmanship, and it surprises me how many coaches are perfectly happy to keep their mouths closed when they know very well that something wrong has occurred, but are extremely vocal about protesting said errors when they don't benefit from them.

Re: He said, she said

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:09 pm
by jdeliverer
SirT wrote:Cien is "one hundred" in Spanish. "One hundred" and "A hundred" are exactly the same in the English language, so it can be translated either way; both are therefore acceptable.
Maybe I'm remembering something wrong, but isn't there a rule somewhere that states that if there is an English publication of the work, then that title (or one of the titles if multiple translations exist) must be used?

Re: He said, she said

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:16 pm
by Skepticism and Animal Feed
jdeliverer wrote:
SirT wrote:Cien is "one hundred" in Spanish. "One hundred" and "A hundred" are exactly the same in the English language, so it can be translated either way; both are therefore acceptable.
Maybe I'm remembering something wrong, but isn't there a rule somewhere that states that if there is an English publication of the work, then that title (or one of the titles if multiple translations exist) must be used?
I'm sure this rule exists somewhere in some quizbowl format, but the reason it's a bad rule is because it discriminates against those who are familiar with the text in its original tongue. If you've read only the original (and thus have no use for the English translation), but you want to answer the question in English for whatever reason, the translation that makes the most sense in your head might not be the same one that the work was published as, even though both are valid.

Re: He said, she said

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:18 pm
by Marble-faced Bristle Tyrant
ACF rules, G.3:

When the title of a work not originally written in English is the answer, titles in the original
language are generally provided in the packet. Those titles in the original language are
acceptable, as are idiomatic or literal English translations and any titles under which a
translation of the work has been published in English. Translations into languages that are
neither the original language nor English are generally not acceptable. Thus, for Marcel
Proust’s series “À la recherche du temps perdu,” that original French title is acceptable,
the literal translation “In Search of Lost Time” is acceptable, and the title “Remembrance
of Things Past” is acceptable because the series was published under that name in
English; however, "En búsqueda del tiempo perdido" is not acceptable, since Spanish is
not the original language of the series. Ambiguities across languages will normally be
resolved in favor of the player; for example, “A Dog’s Heart,” “Heart of a Dog,” “The
Heart of a Dog,” and “The Heart of the Dog” are all acceptable for Mikhail Bulgakov’s
Sobace serdtse, as the player is not expected to figure out whether or how to supply
articles that do not exist in Russian. However, players will not receive credit for a correct
answer when making implausible translations: “The Heart Inside the Dog” is never
acceptable, since there is no correct way to translate the Russian title in that way. Since
moderators and tournament directors cannot be expected to be familiar with the
intricacies of every foreign language, players are encouraged to give non-esoteric or
traditional English translations, or the original-language title, in order to avoid
complicated protests over translated answers.

Re: He said, she said

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:29 pm
by dxdtdemon
How about if someone said "Closed Doors" instead of "No Exit"?

Re: He said, she said

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:36 pm
by Skepticism and Animal Feed
quantumfootball wrote:How about if someone said "Closed Doors" instead of "No Exit"?
It took me about 5 seconds on Wikipedia to figure out that this should be accepted.

Re: He said, she said

Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:19 am
by Dresden_The_BIG_JERK
In the case of the OP, if I had any doubt whatsoever, I would probably just throw the question out. If I was sure I had heard no 'the' however, the ruling would obviously stand.

Re: He said, she said

Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 1:04 pm
by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)
I don't think throwing out tossups is ever the right move unless it is your own error that causes the tossup to become unanswerable (i.e. when I accidentally read out the answer). In all other situations, there should be a proper way to resolve the protest that is consistent with the rules of quizbowl, and which allows you to keep the tossup in play. In this particular case, many rules in fact require moderators to err on the side of the team that said the wrong answer, which maybe means the rule should be revisited, but it is the rule in most formats. However, no matter what happens, I don't like the idea that a team can be given the ability to protest questions they don't get to have them thrown out entirely as part of a team's strategic arsenal, that seems like you are inviting coaches to abuse it. In any case, not a lot in quizbowl irks me more than questions being thrown out solely because the moderator doesn't know the rules, and we should make a greater effort to get moderators to cut it out.

Re: He said, she said

Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 1:43 pm
by Dresden_The_BIG_JERK
It really depends on the specifics. Whenever "Invisible Man" (or other notable confusing titles such as "A Midsummer Night's Dream") is involved I make sure to pay extra attention so this is never an issue. However, in cases where it is, I see three realistic outcomes. One: You remain confident that the answer given was correct and move on. Two: You realize that the challenge is absolutely correct, assess the neg penalty if appropriate and proceed per the rules for the format (which is most likely reading a tossup for the challenging team, off the clock if applicable). The gray area here is what to do in situation three, when you're unsure what the truth is. You could make a judgment call and go with option one or two, or if you're truly unsure, I see no issue with scrapping the whole thing and starting over. Short of making the call when you're not sure, what's the alternative? The extra questions are there for a reason.

As I said though, the best way to prevent this is looking out for potentially contentious answer lines and taking your time when deeming answers correct or incorrect.

Re: He said, she said

Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:06 pm
by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)
You could make a judgment call and go with option one or two, or if you're truly unsure, I see no issue with scrapping the whole thing and starting over. Short of making the call when you're not sure, what's the alternative?
As I pointed out, there are in fact rules governing this and you should uphold them. In most formats, what the moderator hears is not protestable.

Re: He said, she said

Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:57 pm
by Dresden_The_BIG_JERK
Jeremy Gibbs Freesy Does It wrote:
You could make a judgment call and go with option one or two, or if you're truly unsure, I see no issue with scrapping the whole thing and starting over. Short of making the call when you're not sure, what's the alternative?
As I pointed out, there are in fact rules governing this and you should uphold them. In most formats, what the moderator hears is not protestable.
Once the protest is out there though, you can't really ignore it. I'd rather try and get it right than be a jerk about the rules.

Re: He said, she said

Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:59 pm
by Auroni
There isn't an infinite supply of extra questions that you have the luxury to throw a question out whenever you're faced with the protest, rather than to actually sit down with the rules and deal with the protest fairly.

Re: He said, she said

Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:05 pm
by Dresden_The_BIG_JERK
every time i refresh i have a new name wrote:There isn't an infinite supply of extra questions that you have the luxury to throw a question out whenever you're faced with the protest, rather than to actually sit down with the rules and deal with the protest fairly.
Certainly, but how often does this kind of issue come up? Once a tournament? Once every other tournament?

Re: He said, she said

Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:07 pm
by Skepticism and Animal Feed
Plus you're creating incentives for teams to violently insist "nuh-uh that's not what he said he added a syllable/article/expletive infix" in an effort to toss out questions that favored the other team and roll the dice on a replacement.

Re: He said, she said

Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:07 pm
by Skepticism and Animal Feed
Dresden_The_Moderator wrote:
every time i refresh i have a new name wrote:There isn't an infinite supply of extra questions that you have the luxury to throw a question out whenever you're faced with the protest, rather than to actually sit down with the rules and deal with the protest fairly.
Certainly, but how often does this kind of issue come up? Once a tournament? Once every other tournament?
This may be a high school bias. 0.5 replacement tossups is often 0.5 more replacement tossups than some college tournaments have...

Re: He said, she said

Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:38 pm
by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)
Dresden_The_Moderator wrote:
Jeremy Gibbs Freesy Does It wrote:
You could make a judgment call and go with option one or two, or if you're truly unsure, I see no issue with scrapping the whole thing and starting over. Short of making the call when you're not sure, what's the alternative?
As I pointed out, there are in fact rules governing this and you should uphold them. In most formats, what the moderator hears is not protestable.
Once the protest is out there though, you can't really ignore it. I'd rather try and get it right than be a jerk about the rules.
The protest isn't allowed to go out there in the first place though.

Re: He said, she said

Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:40 pm
by Dresden_The_BIG_JERK
Jeremy Gibbs Freesy Does It wrote:
Dresden_The_Moderator wrote:
Jeremy Gibbs Freesy Does It wrote:
You could make a judgment call and go with option one or two, or if you're truly unsure, I see no issue with scrapping the whole thing and starting over. Short of making the call when you're not sure, what's the alternative?
As I pointed out, there are in fact rules governing this and you should uphold them. In most formats, what the moderator hears is not protestable.
Once the protest is out there though, you can't really ignore it. I'd rather try and get it right than be a jerk about the rules.
The protest isn't allowed to go out there in the first place though.
How does that work? Someone says they have a protest, do you ask the category? I could see denying the protest on the grounds of that rule once it's said, but how do you know beforehand what they're going to say?

Re: He said, she said

Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:44 pm
by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)
You tell the team they cannot lodge that protest and then move on to the next question, ignoring everything that just happened. That is how you should uphold those rules.

Re: He said, she said

Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:41 pm
by Cheynem
Yeah, you can't open the door to protest non protestable things. The only time I would consider doing it is if like both teams are insisting I heard someone wrong (in this case, this is like common sense courtesy).

Re: He said, she said

Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:32 pm
by Louis XIV and Twenty Million Henchmen
Dresden_The_Moderator wrote:As I said though, the best way to prevent this is looking out for potentially contentious answer lines and taking your time when deeming answers correct or incorrect.
It doesn't just happen with potentially contentious answer lines, though – people do sometimes just mishear people. In one tournament my freshman year, I was initially negged by the moderator because (I guess) he'd been expecting a different mispronunciation of "Cuchulainn" than the one I gave, which led him to think that I'd said something completely different. Eventually (with confirmation by the other team as well, if I remember correctly) it was resolved ("Oh, you said Cuchulainn?"); although according to the rules, it looks like the neg should have stood.

Re: He said, she said

Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:15 pm
by TheKingInYellow
It's hardly a hard and fast rule--I've found that in every situation where both teams have agreed something was right or wrong (at least as far as pronunciation), the moderator has changed his or her opinion to reflect this.

Re: He said, she said

Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:26 pm
by Cheynem
I mean, if BOTH teams are agreeing, I don't see anything wrong in the moderator acknowledging that provided it isn't getting out of hand.

Re: He said, she said

Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:33 am
by DumbJaques
I mean, if BOTH teams are agreeing, I don't see anything wrong in the moderator acknowledging that provided it isn't getting out of hand.
If both teams agree, there is absolutely no reason as a moderator of you to insist on a ruling unless you know it to be correct. In my experience, this unfortunately usually occurs with an "educator" who subscribes to the loathsome opinion that high school students are inherently lesser beings than adults, or with moderators with similar self-esteem problems who are threatened by the prospect of players appearing more competent than they are. I mean, if you know what you're doing, that's fine, but if both teams agree that an alternate answer is obviously correct and you just don't know anything about it, I suggest not being needlessly thick about things for no reason whatsoever.

Re: He said, she said

Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:37 am
by Skepticism and Animal Feed
DumbJaques wrote:
I mean, if BOTH teams are agreeing, I don't see anything wrong in the moderator acknowledging that provided it isn't getting out of hand.
If both teams agree, there is absolutely no reason as a moderator of you to insist on a ruling unless you know it to be correct. In my experience, this unfortunately usually occurs with an "educator" who subscribes to the loathsome opinion that high school students are inherently lesser beings than adults, or with moderators with similar self-esteem problems who are threatened by the prospect of players appearing more competent than they are. I mean, if you know what you're doing, that's fine, but if both teams agree that an alternate answer is obviously correct and you just don't know anything about it, I suggest not being needlessly thick about things for no reason whatsoever.
Unfortunately, I've had the opposite of this happen.

In an IHSA game in high school, my team was winning by a lot and then we got a bonus on Norse myth. I said "Midgart" for "Midgard" and the moderator initially accepted it. The other team protested. My coach agreed with the other team and the points were taken away.

My coach apparently did this out of some notion of sportsmanship and not wanting to run up the score, rather than out of a belief that my answer was wrong.

Re: He said, she said

Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:53 am
by Cheynem
This is slightly different from the main topic, but as a moderator, how do you handle protests in which it seems like logically a protest should be lodged but either out of inexperience, apathy, or confusion, a team does not? As a moderator, there have been times when faced with gray areas (i.e., I'm PRETTY sure that something is an alternate answer, but not 100%), I've said "Let's check this if it makes a difference," so I am in effect making a protest for a team which may not have done so anyway. I've seen this more or less done in college tournaments I've played at, so I don't think I'm breaking some cardinal rule. At other times, I guess I've just asked "Do you want to protest?"--although again, some teams, especially middling to bad ones, will not do this even when they absolutely should.

Re: He said, she said

Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 3:41 pm
by DumbJaques
I mean, I guess in theory you're not supposed to do this, but if I see something I know is wrong or have a strong suspicion about I go ahead and say "we'll check that if it matters" or something. Not doing so because a team didn't have the experience to protest or wasn't paying close enough attention is just antithetical to the notion of quizbowl as a good-faith community (not to mention quizbowl's valuation of knowledge and forthright competition).

Re: He said, she said

Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:21 pm
by Mechanical Beasts
DumbJaques wrote:I mean, I guess in theory you're not supposed to do this, but if I see something I know is wrong or have a strong suspicion about I go ahead and say "we'll check that if it matters" or something. Not doing so because a team didn't have the experience to protest or wasn't paying close enough attention is just antithetical to the notion of quizbowl as a good-faith community (not to mention quizbowl's valuation of knowledge and forthright competition).
I agree. It's silly to have "You must say the word 'protest' for a needed adjudication to occur" rather than "you may say the word 'protest' to ensure that an adjudication occurs."

Re: He said, she said

Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:50 pm
by STPickrell
The VHSL rules state that if there is easy agreement among coaches, officials, and players about the correctness of a given answer, to simply adjust the score accordingly. Only if you can't find a quick agreement do you formally contest/protest. There's also some stuff explicitly denying paper infallibility in there too but I don't think that is as well-followed as the "insta-resolution" idea (which to me is just good sportsmanship.)

(EDIT: Sorry for reviving a moribund thread)

Re: He said, she said

Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:26 pm
by Howard
Cheynem wrote:This is slightly different from the main topic, but as a moderator, how do you handle protests in which it seems like logically a protest should be lodged but either out of inexperience, apathy, or confusion, a team does not? As a moderator, there have been times when faced with gray areas (i.e., I'm PRETTY sure that something is an alternate answer, but not 100%), I've said "Let's check this if it makes a difference," so I am in effect making a protest for a team which may not have done so anyway. I've seen this more or less done in college tournaments I've played at, so I don't think I'm breaking some cardinal rule. At other times, I guess I've just asked "Do you want to protest?"--although again, some teams, especially middling to bad ones, will not do this even when they absolutely should.
The most frequent scenario for me occurs when I've made a decision in the room. I'll typically point out that the team who is less pleased with my decision is welcome to protest and we'll review it if it makes a difference in the outcome of the match. Although yours is a slightly different scenario, I still see nothing wrong with providing the hint "you're welcome to protest this point" if you have reason to believe there would be merit in a protest.