The Quizbowl Resource Center

Edited for the following reason : Realized that NRLYAGODD's post was correct and thought better of what I said...

Until something happens... don't pre-emptively complain about it... It'll be obvious to everyone if they do something too biased.

Seeing as how we did it last week, the pools at ASCA competitions are drawn at random. We have team names on paper and pull at random to get the pools. However it comes out is how it is.

Steven - Out of curiosity, do you know who won the ASCA Middle School State Championship yesterday? I thought you might know since LAMP hosted...

-Lee

I was only there through the prelims (I had to work at 3). I think in my pool Russelville came out undefeated. They were pretty good. I'm not sure who won it, though.

Russellville got beat in the first round by Mountain Brook, and I think he told me that it was Whitesburg vs. Mtn. Brook in the semis there, so I would guess Whitesburg won it, although I'm not really sure.

That kinda surprises me... Russellville and Cullman were the best teams I saw this year... Whitesburg was also very strong, but I would've put my money on Russellville.

The way I understood it, against Mountain Brook, a kid from Mountain Brook rang in on the last question, with MB up 5, and went "uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...........................1..........8....0?" And the reader never called a stall. Mrs. Daily wasn't at the tournament, and my mom and dad were the coaches, but they told me that they should have won anyway. Still, I was kinda rooting for my old middle school team to win it. It would have given the family two state championships in middle school.

For what its worth - Pizitz beat Whitesburg for the ASCA Middle School Championship. Congrats to them!

-Lee

PS - Now that we have been properly distracted, can we PLEASE groan some more about Regionals!!!!

How about ASCA as a whole. I just think it's stupid. I guess it's the "legitimate" state championship, but I wish they would change the format a little bit.

Steven - do you speak specifically of the game format or the way in which the road to State is structured, or both?

I'll just clarify... I was feeling lazy yesterday.

Format Issues: I've just about had it with the varying point values for tossups. All tossups should be 10 points, regardless of which period they're in. Use the pyramidal style tossups from the last round the whole way through and make them worth 10. Just to keep the crappy schools coming back, keep the worksheet round, but instead have 3 periods. Period one should be the tossup/bonus format with 10 TU/Bonus and then period two can be the 20 item, 100 point worksheet. Last round should be 10 more pyramidal tossups to finish it off. I'm just tired of the dinky 5 point round--it's just a waste of time. I understand that ASCA's trying to cater to the worse teams in the state with the small schools tournament and the worksheet, etc, but really, a bad team isn't going to beat a good team, regardless of the format. They just need to update a little and make it a little simpler. I think it'd make it easier on new readers, players, and coaches.

Road-to-State Issues: Just do away with districts as a whole. Keep regionals and just run bigger tournaments at the regional sites with smaller pools. I'm glad the state tournament's in Birmingham this year, that's a lot better than Muscle-freaking Shoals that's like 6 hours away from us. Anyway, I'm getting lazy again so I'm cutting this off. I have an exciting literary criticism paper to write.

steven-lamp said:

Seeing as how we did it last week, the pools at ASCA competitions are drawn at random. We have team names on paper and pull at random to get the pools. However it comes out is how it is.

Granted, the draw is supposed to be fair. My questions is this: doesn't it seem that there has to be a better way? I'm certainly not claiming to KNOW what the better way is, but I at least wish that it could be discussed.

For a very strong team like LAMP, who is going to a weak region, it might not seem like a big deal. However, for some of us whether we go to state is going to be determined less on whether or not we deserve it and more on what pool we draw.

Ideally, the state championship tournament should consist of the best 16 teams, not the luckiest. Participation in ASCA has been declining, at least according to what I've heard at meetings. Its pretty obvious why teams are dropping out - especially when you look at districts like ours. Take Albertville High School and Catholic High, for example. These teams could've easily qualified for regionals had they gone to district at Central Alabama CC instead of Snead... And there is no hope that they will ever get to go to a different district. Therefore, year after year they are good teams, but year after year they are defeated by Grissom, etc. At some point they might just give up on it, especially when seeing that at some sites much weaker teams pay the same fees and get to move on.

The ASCA small schools tournament was an excellent idea that is a huge step in the right direction... However, other steps could easily be taken. Here are a few of my suggestions for you to comment on or add to:

1) Increase the number of teams that get to go to state! Why only 16? What about 24 - that would be 3 pools of 8. You would need only 12 readers, and this is actually much smaller than the average invitational.

2) Give byes to the top 4 teams for the previous year. I've been saying this for a while. If you allow the top four teams from the previous year to go automatically to state, then some of the districts with perrenial powerhouses will have more representation. These teams can still compete in Regionals and District, but won't block other teams from making it.

3) Allow some alternate methods of qualification. Instead of deciding a team's fate based on performance on one day, have two or three tournaments and base some state invitations on overall performance. Perhaps in these tournaments, regional and district lines can be crossed in order to allow a better ranking system. I think that it is terribly unfair that some weaker teams get to advance simply because they are in a geographic part of the state that seems to breed mediocrity in quiz bowl...

4) Seed teams at regionals instead of drawing pieces of paper. ASCA has the results from district. They know stats. They know who beat who, who scored how many points, strength of field, etc. So, take those stats and try and make the pools at regionals as equal as possible. I dare say that the fourth and maybe even the fifth place team at the Snead disctrict could beat the #2 (maybe even #1) team from several other districts. This should be taken into consideration at regionals.

My 2 cents as usual.

So, good luck at regionals everyone.

Indeed... Good luck to all, and may the best teams win!

Montgomery Region

Pool A
1. LAMP
2. St. Paul's
3. TR Miller


Pool B
1. Baker
2. Northside

I thought I heard the St. Paul's coach say something like her team couldn't go to state, so if that's the case, TR Miller gets the bid.

From Arab:

Pool A:
Brindlee Mountain
Athens Bible

Pool B:
Cullman
Grissom


Cullman manged to defeat BOTH Grissom and Covenant Christian. Therefore, CCA, one of the absolute best in the state, is out... I'm both happy and unhappy about this. Happy in that CCA is the only team that has beaten us every single time we've played them (barring some teams that we only played once), and we won't have to worry about them at State. However, I'm also unhappy in that it proves how incredibly flawed this system is... Two of the top 5 teams in the state (ASFA and CCA) cut out early...



In our pool, Athens was putting up huge numbers. However, we beat them and so did Athens Bible... Randolph was also impressive, but lost to Athens and us.

The pools at Arab JHS were ridiculous. CCA, Bob Jones, Sparkman, Austin (I think), Cullman, and Grissom?

On a side note, Cullman was very impressive.

Yeah, the pools were lopsided. However, I never would've guessed that Cullman would beat Grissom or CCA, much less BOTH!

Also, I was suprised at Athens and Athens Bible. They were both pretty strong.

WOW....CCA was a team that gave us fits last year, and now they are out of the state tourney? This does suck, and I hope that if St. Paul's can't go, then the powers-that-be at ASCA will let CCA get that slot, because it is completely unfair to leave a team that good out...

If a team that can't make it drops out, I think they take the highest scoring (ppg) wild card. So for CCA to make it, they would have had to outscore the other three wild card teams. I'm not sure what kind of point values they were putting up, but it's pretty tough to average a whole lot when every team you play ranges from solid to great. BTW, can anyone comment on how my alma mater did. (BJ) I think they're definitely in rebuilding mode so I dunno anything about the current team.

That's a really big shame about CCA not making it to state. They were one team I thought would make it all the way to the state playoffs at least. On the bright yet cynical side, at least we're not the only ones left out. Maybe this will lead to some reforms, but I kinda doubt it. The current system is a flawed, but it's not flawed enough for anyone to take drastic action to change it.

NRLYAGODD wrote:If a team that can't make it drops out, I think they take the highest scoring (ppg) wild card. So for CCA to make it, they would have had to outscore the other three wild card teams. I'm not sure what kind of point values they were putting up, but it's pretty tough to average a whole lot when every team you play ranges from solid to great. BTW, can anyone comment on how my alma mater did. (BJ) I think they're definitely in rebuilding mode so I dunno anything about the current team.

I don't remember the score, but they were pretty close with us (Grissom) throughout our game. Didn't seem like too much of a rebuilding year.

Regionals was quite interesting. The pools were quite lopsided, with the biggest surprise being CCA getting knocked out. I think they should definitely be in the state tournament and it's ridiculous that they aren't. Cullman, however, is quite good - they beat us (Grissom) by 25, and apparently they don't have any seniors, which was surprising. Incidentally, the score in that game (240-215) was exactly the same as our game vs. CCA (except we were on the winning end in that one). All but one of our games were within 60 points, actually, and it seemed like the games were more low-scoring than district (the questions were a little harder, and our pool was stacked). Fortunately that last game against Cullman was only for bragging rights, since we had both already made it by then. I'm surprised that Athens got second in the other pool, I figured Randolph would make it. They seemed pretty good at District.
By the way, who is coming to the HCS invitational on monday? I think i've heard in the past that a lot of teams don't like it much. Hopefully the three of us from grissom on the Huntsville all-city team will get put on the same team (we don't know what the coach is going to do) so we can get some more practice before state.
Anyway, congratulations to everyone who made it to state this year, and good luck to all when we see each other in a few weeks. it should be interesting.

ithinkiamsteven said:

Regionals was quite interesting. The pools were quite lopsided, with the biggest surprise being CCA getting knocked out. I think they should definitely be in the state tournament and it's ridiculous that they aren't. Cullman, however, is quite good - they beat us (Grissom) by 25, and apparently they don't have any seniors, which was surprising. Incidentally, the score in that game (240-215) was exactly the same as our game vs. CCA (except we were on the winning end in that one). All but one of our games were within 60 points, actually, and it seemed like the games were more low-scoring than district (the questions were a little harder, and our pool was stacked). Fortunately that last game against Cullman was only for bragging rights, since we had both already made it by then. I'm surprised that Athens got second in the other pool, I figured Randolph would make it. They seemed pretty good at District.
By the way, who is coming to the HCS invitational on monday? I think i've heard in the past that a lot of teams don't like it much. Hopefully the three of us from grissom on the Huntsville all-city team will get put on the same team (we don't know what the coach is going to do) so we can get some more practice before state.
Anyway, congratulations to everyone who made it to state this year, and good luck to all when we see each other in a few weeks. it should be interesting.

Brindlee Mountain will be there at the Huntsville Invite tommorow. Also, I know that ASFA and CCA will be there. I think most teams who don't like it fault the "All-Star" thing. I can see their point... It's not exactly fair, but its the way it has always been. I think it's a good opportunity to get ready for state and/or nationals, so we'll go.

As for CCA not making it to state - I agree with you. They and ASFA both deserve to go.

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quizbowllee wrote:I think it's a good opportunity to get ready for state and/or nationals, so we'll go.

Only if the questions aren't completely horrible, has they have a tendenacy to have been in the past.

Also, the all-star thing is another reason, as well as the fact it is/was more expensive than most HS tournaments are, just for the sake of being held at a (not very good, imho) hotel. The only nice thing is that good ole Madison Square Mall is right there, so at least food isn't very far away.

The only good thing was that it usually meant two days off of school for us.

How's this for irony?

Results of the Huntsville City Invitational:
1st: ASFA
2nd: Covenant Christian
Semifinalists: LAMP and ?

This tournament was a good end to my team's regular season. We played very well all day, except the round against Muscle Shoals, which we lost, but we did beat the Huntsville City All-Stars with 415 points and defeated Bob Jones, LAMP, and CCA in the playoffs. The questions were par of the course for the tournament with the usual number of hosers and a few extremely subjective questions, but we got used to them pretty quickly and used them to our advantage. Overall, we had a good day and can't wait for PACE Nationals.

Congrats, David! It is ironic that you and CCA got first and second... and everyone knows that ASFA and CCA deserve to be at state.

Apparently we just can't beat CCA... We can beat the teams that beat CCA, but we can't do it ourselves. Our record vs. CCA is now 0-6... I still look forward to playing them on NAQT questions, though.

Also, did you ever get the invite to PACE? Cullman never got theirs from the Athens Tournament...

Anywho, it was a decent tournament... The questions were pretty good for what they were - short and non-pyramidal. There were a few too many hoses, but we knew there would be. The biggest downer was having four byes. But that gave us an opportunity to lounge by the pool and play cards. That's much better than the alternative on a Monday!

Anyway, congrats again.

-Lee

Poetic justice is always a nice thing. Congrats to ASFA for the win and CCA for a strong second. Tournmanet was overall fairly good. There were a good number of hoses, but the questions weren't really trashy, so that's good.

David, is Muscle Shoals really good? I heard they were killing people at district, but I haven't heard a thing about regionals.

They're a pretty good team but I don't know how far they advanced in the playoffs so I can't give a really accurate assessment of their performance. They did beat us and HC All Stars but both of the games were pretty close so the games could have gone either way. I'd really need to see them play more before I could say whether they are really good or not, but they definitely have some skill and a certain amount of luck, which can be just as important at times.

We played them earlier in the year and, IIRC, we beat them pretty handily. I was sort of surprised when I saw/heard the results at the tournament yesterday.

From observing and playing against Muscle Shoals, I can't say they're very impresive. I think it was a fluke that they managed to beat ASFA and Huntsville A.

I'm just happy a team from northwest Alabama is actually doing well this year. Since Russellville stopped having a full-time team, I kinda lost all hope for the Shoals area.

Anyone know how Muscle Shoals ended up doing in the playoffs? I know they played Catholic first but I never heard if they won or not. Also who did CCA beat before they played us?

David - CCA played whoever won between Catholic and Muscle Shoals.

Also, I'd just like to comment on how incredibly fickle this game really is. I was looking at the stats from our tournament back in December... Cullman finished 6th with a 7-6 record. Also, Muscle Shoals went 6-7 and finished 8th...

I said earlier in the year that Cullman was a team that could sneak up on you, but their sudden ability to defeat Grissom and CCA at regionals and then beat LAMP at Huntsville is just weird.

Also, Muscle Shoals beating ASFA and the Huntsville All-Stars is just strange to me. The only time we played Muscle Shoals was at our own tournament and we beat them soundly.

So anyway, I have absolutely no idea who is gonna win ASCA State. Honestly, I would've put my money on CCA until now. I think Springs has a good shot, too. However, I'm wondering if Cullman is gonna be able to keep this incredible streak alive at state.

Also, who is going to NAQT State and/or the NAQT tournament at Snead on April 1?

-Lee

Catholic beat Shoals, I think I was timekeeping that game.

i don't know what to say about the Huntsville Tournament monday. It was full of craziness. The first thing that is ridiculous is that by creating a Huntsville City "All-Star" Team, the pool of teams was made weaker. On the Huntsville A team we were stuck with two Grissom guys (including myself) and then a handful of other people, one or two of which were decent and contributed a little, but we were a weaker team than Grissom. Granted, this is just making excuses for myself because we didn't do as well as I'd like to have done. We got owned by ASFA, in a very poorly played round by us. Muscle Shoals beat us by 25, and that one was our fault too. The crazy thing was that Muscle Shoals went undefeated in their pool, barely beating Hsv. A and ASFA, as well as beating Hsv. B by one question in a tiebreaker. I couldn't have been more surprised by the top four teams, Catholic being the fourth as I think someone pointed out. I thought it was interesting that 3 of the top 4 teams will not be at State; one of those teams got booted as regionals, barely (CCA), and the other two got knocked out at district (ASFA and Catholic). Catholic came in 4th or 5th at District, so I was very surprised by them. The questions were decent, but I'm not a big fan of questions where you know the answer to every single one - it should be about speed and how much you know, not just speed (I know, i'm just making excuses). They finally started asking higher math (i.e. precal and calculus) in the last few rounds. I'm always disappointed by the lack of difficult math at tournaments, and of math at all at ASCA so far. In the final round against Cullman at regionals I think we had one math question in the entire match.
This post is sufficiently long, so I'll stop, but I would like to close by agreeing with Lee about the fickleness of academic team, particularly this year. Everything I've been to this year (which isn't too many) at least one highly surprising thing has happened, usually more. No teams have been very consistent, and I have absolutely NO IDEA who's going to win State, or even perform well there. It's gonna be craaaazy.

Just out of curiosity, who is gonna be losing major players next year. Until a couple of weeks ago, I thought David from ASFA was a senior. I was wrong...

Here's what I know so far (correct me if I'm wrong):

Brindlee Mountain will be losing Myles Teston.
Stephen and Jay from LAMP are both seniors, right?

I know that Carter from CCA will be back, but what about Matthew Hitt?

Grissom - Steven, are you a senior? What about Miles and Neel?

I think that Cullman's whole team is juniors...

Indian Springs will be losing Evan and James, which will greatly weaken them.

Who else?

Jay and I are graduating. To quote Louis XV: "After me, the flood." I don't think LAMP's going to be really strong next year. However, after Alex left last year and Tony the year before that and George the year before that people said the same thing but we pulled through. Basically, it comes down to a few people who step up and decide that they don't want to suck. I think/hope someone in the program will make that step up next year and keep us going strong.

(Myles Teston) Yes, I will be graduating this May. Brindlee Mountain's strength next year should not be affected greatly. My entire team consists of freshman and one sophomore (a German exchange student who just wanted to experience a great American pastime, scholar's bowl). My three varsity teammates this year are Andy Knowles, 'Big Papa' Mark Morris, and Amanda Hardin. Justin Decker, our JV captain, will fill in my spot on Varsity next year. These freshmen usually lead the scoring for BMHS; they have been playing non-stop for Lee for five solid years now. They have a lot of experience and are already veterans. As for high scorer we usually alternate; our captain Andy usually leads us all for individual scoring. Brindlee Mountain should be a consistent force for the next three years. Our incoming freshmen for 2005-2006 aren't quite at the same level as these guys, but they'll have plenty of room for improvement as JV players since all the Varsity positions will most likely be permanently fixed until 2008. Unless one of my teammates quits the team (very unlikely, it would take an act of God to get any one of them to quit as spirited as they are), then Brindlee Mountain has little to worry about after I graduate.

For Grissom, Steven and Ben will be graduating. The rest of us will be returning.

Nobody would happen to know all 16 teams in the state tournament, would they?

Slade, we could only wish the Sweet 16 to be known... Why the ASCA site is never updated, I don't know.

I do know that fromthe B'ham/ Gadsden region, Pelham, JCIB, Indian Springs, and Southside made it.

Wow, that's a pretty crazy combination, except for Springs and JCIB. It's also slightly unexpected, but when has this year ever been as expected? It's also slightly depressing, but i don't care too much about it at this point.

Ok , the other two aren't totally surprising either. Pelham is a pretty good team, and Southside made it to state last year although they only won one game, but teams like Hoover and Vestavia and Oak Mountain not making it is a bit surprising considering their performance at district and other tournaments. The same could be said about us of course. If only we knew more about what actually happened there then some sense could be made of it.

OK, that means so far, we know that Brindlee Mountain, Cullman, Grissom, Athens Bible, LAMP, St. Paul's (possibly TR Miller), Baker, Northside, Pelham, JCIB, Springs, and Southside are in. Out of the Tuscaloosa region, I know that Florence and Holy Spirit got out, and I would guess that Muscle Shoals and South Lamar are the other two, but I really wish the ASCA website was updated.

This is the official list of the 16 state-bound teams.

Holy Spirit Catholic School
Northridge High School
Hillcrest High School
Florence High School
lndian Springs School
Pelham High School
Jefferson County IB School
Southside High School
Cullman High School
Grissom High School
Brindlee Mountain High School
Athens Bible School
LAMP High School
Baker High School
Northview High School
T.R.Miller High School

Alright, so if you HAD to pick a team to win, who would it be and why?

Grissom because the persistance method of prediction is 70% accurate. Indian Springs would be my second candidate because they have played very strongly all year and are at their peak strength.