The IHSSBCA Website

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The IHSSBCA Website

Post by Boeing X-20, Please! » Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:23 pm

Now, obviously the IHSSBCA Website is very helpful for a number of reasons that are not statistics-related, such as the newsletter, calendar, etc. However, I think the Tournament Central's hosting of statistics has become fairly obsolete due to the Tournament Database linked to at the top of this page, as that database includes links to other tournaments using the same set which is good for comparison basis and the ability to easily move between prelims-playoffs-combined instead of having to either enter a different URL on the IHSSBCA site or clicking on TC and scrolling down, in addition to some other factors. Now, I'm not advocating for a stopping of stats being hosted at the IHSSBCA website, but I was wondering why as a state, Illinois does not upload its stats to that site in addition to being kept on the IHSSBCA website? I don't advocate for the erasing of stats on the IHSSBCA website because perhaps people are only familiar with that rather than the forums and tournament DB (although it'd be just as easy to just include links to the Tournament Database), but it seems there is no reason to miss out on the extra benefits of hosting statistics on the Tournament/Resource Database.

Thoughts negative or positive?
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Re: The IHSSBCA Website

Post by Boeing X-20, Please! » Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:41 pm

Also, in a topic unrelated to stats but related to the IHSSBCA Website, what should be done about this moderator certification test? It's clearly just incredibly outdated and only applicable for IHSA, as well as moderator certification cards are now how one really gets certified. Should it just be renamed to make it clear that it's for IHSA, even though it apparently does not mean that it qualifies you to moderate IHSA or plays any part in their decision? Should a new one be made for normal mACF rules? Should it just be left alone but have a note added to it that states that there is no reason to do it due to its non-applicability and use of certification cards?
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Re: The IHSSBCA Website

Post by abnormal abdomen » Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:49 pm

I agree with Nolan's sentiments.
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Re: The IHSSBCA Website

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:14 pm

On the subject of stats...
*this seems to show that some IL tournaments do use HSQB DB; it's likely a matter of "some hosts are aware of the site, some aren't" that keeps use of it below 100%.
*use of HSQB DB is admittedly easy; that said, it's easy for me because I'm used to uploading full SQBS reports. For a tournament host who is just getting in the game, which is easier - sending a file to Jonah, or learning how to use a website?
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Re: The IHSSBCA Website

Post by Boeing X-20, Please! » Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:28 pm

Bone seeker wrote: *this seems to show that some IL tournaments do use HSQB DB;
While it is true that some do, that's like 2 of 8+ tournaments that have uploaded their stats (both being run by colleges) on there and your ACF Fall Mirror isn't even included on the IHSSBCA page since it was a college tournament. Also, the majority of the tournaments included there are tournaments that have yet to happen so we can't just assume that they're gonna post them on there instead of giving them to Jonah to post on IHSSBCA.
it's likely a matter of "some hosts are aware of the site, some aren't" that keeps use of it below 100%.
*use of HSQB DB is admittedly easy; that said, it's easy for me because I'm used to uploading full SQBS reports. For a tournament host who is just getting in the game, which is easier - sending a file to Jonah, or learning how to use a website?
Both of these points are valid, but I think seeing as IHSSBCA is some sort of outreach organization, maybe some sort of outreach should occur that tries to get teams to make use of it as that will allow more teams to see what tournaments are available, maybe help in convincing teams to keep stats for tournaments, or some other positive effect. Also, I obviously can't speak for Jonah but how much harder is it for him to upload them to the TDB over the IHSSBCA website?
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Re: The IHSSBCA Website

Post by Deviant Insider » Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:34 pm

These are good points. As to the stats, I think you are just seeing a transition issue. the Quizbowl Resource Database is fairly new, or at least its usefulness is fairly new, and many good tournaments are not using it because of inertia and because there is no pressing need to use it. On the one hand, Jonah has done a good job the last couple of years posting lots of stats on the IHSSBCA website, and that has worked well. On the other hand, if there is a website giving stats for lots of good tournaments around the country, then we want the good tournaments in Illinois to be a part of that. We should probably figure out whether we want to post the stats in both places or pick one site as the place to post stats and the other as the place to post a link to those stats, and we should also figure out whether the postings on the QRD are the job of somebody with IHSSBCA or the TD, but the point is a good one that should be addressed.

As to the Moderator Test, we have discussed it recently, and you bring up two different valid flaws with the test. As to the bad/outdated questions, a few people have volunteered to write updated questions for it, and I hope that some of the bad questions will be replaced soon--there are two questions for which we currently accept more than one answer, and there are a few others that do not reflect rule changes that have happened in the past year or two.

We do not plan on developing a test based on mACF rules. We do not feel that we are the right organization to develop such a test, since we are not affiliated with ACF. Furthermore, we try to get IHSA to use IHSSBCA Certified Moderators at its State Finals (with a fair amount of success, though not complete success), and we think that getting away from IHSA rules on our moderator test would give us even less influence with who moderates. Keep in mind that IHSSBCA has never really endorsed mACF format or distribution over IHSA, in part because we represent a lot of coaches with a lot of views. We use mACF format at our Kickoffs and Turnabouts, but that is in large part because we want to use good questions, and the good questions available to us are in mACF format. One of the reasons we do not develop a new test based on mACF is that the amount of work that would go into it probably would outweigh the good that came out of it. If a good test fell into our laps, then we would at least strongly consider using it or linking to somebody who did.

Some of this gets at the nature of our organization, which is more focused on promoting quizbowl and trying to carry out good practices than attacking bad quizbowl, and which has a membership that is in many ways satisfied with IHSA policies. Additionally, sometimes we are just plain behind the curve, and sometimes that is my fault.
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Re: The IHSSBCA Website

Post by jonah » Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:44 am

This thread seems to be making the assumption that posting stats on ihssbca.org is mutually exclusive with posting them elsewhere, which is very much not the case. For the past two years or so, I have asked tournament hosts to allow me to post stats on ihssbca.org, and I will continue doing so for reasons to be explained forthwith, but there is no reason tournament hosts can't also post them on hsquizbowl's database if they want. They can also, of course, refuse to allow them to be posted on ihssbca.org, which at least one host has done so far this year. The practice of hosting statistics on ihssbca.org is intended to be a service to tournament hosts and IHSSBCA members, not to restrict what either of those groups can do.

One of the major reasons I would like stats to be on ihssbca.org is for the sake of stability. I don't know what will happen with the tournament database over the next few years, but it could go the way of Taft, the old QBwiki or the old old QBwiki, and other things that have moved to new URLs, or it could disappear entirely. With ihssbca.org, I have a reasonable amount of confidence—largely because the site is to some extent within my control—that the files will remain available and will not move.

I will probably add a way to navigate between sets of stats (that is, prelims/playoffs/overall) sometime. I just hadn't thought of it before.

Gus Honeybun wrote:what should be done about this moderator certification test? It's clearly just incredibly outdated and only applicable for IHSA
As Reinstein said, it will be updated as soon as some factors outside of my control come together.
Gus Honeybun wrote:as well as moderator certification cards are now how one really gets certified.
Well, that's not really true; there are two entirely independent types of certification: performance (from the rating cards) and test (from that test).
Gus Honeybun wrote:Should it just be renamed to make it clear that it's for IHSA, even though it apparently does not mean that it qualifies you to moderate IHSA or plays any part in their decision?
Yeah, unless I am told that I may not do this, I will probably rename it something like "IHSA Rules Test" as part of the aforementioned updates that I hope to make soon.
Gus Honeybun wrote:Should a new one be made for normal mACF rules? Should it just be left alone but have a note added to it that states that there is no reason to do it due to its non-applicability and use of certification cards?
I think Reinstein addressed all these questions adequately, but let me know if not.
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Re: The IHSSBCA Website

Post by jonah » Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:48 am

Gus Honeybun wrote:your ACF Fall Mirror isn't even included on the IHSSBCA page since it was a college tournament
That's just an oversight on my part; in general, I include all tournaments likely to be of interest to IHSSBCA members, and since a bunch of Illinois high school teams played ACF Fall, I'll add it soon. I actually thought it was on there.
Gus Honeybun wrote:Also, I obviously can't speak for Jonah but how much harder is it for him to upload them to the TDB over the IHSSBCA website?
Harder, and problematic for other reasons: the tournament hosts should have control over those stats, but that's not possible if I am to post them, unless we share accounts (which is a bad idea for lots of reasons); additionally, it doesn't solve the major issue I expressed above.
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Re: The IHSSBCA Website

Post by AKKOLADE » Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:11 am

am I half asleep or is there a thread complaining about quiz bowl stats being posted on two websites
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Re: The IHSSBCA Website

Post by Deviant Insider » Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:23 am

The problem is that they are posted on two different websites, so Illinois people only see the Illinois stats, and non-Illinois people don't see the Illinois stats. Of course, this problem does not apply to Fred, who sees all stats. Keep in mind that these kids don't realize that until five years ago few high school people posted any stats, and you were lucky if you found out who won the tournament.
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