Questions about answer acceptance regarding last names

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Questions about answer acceptance regarding last names

Post by Sniper, No Sniping! »

I have been meaning to inquire about this, but I never really got around to it, so here are a few questions I have when it comes to answer acceptability:

First; regarding Latin American/Spanish authors that have what appears to be "more than one last name" (i.e. Mario Vargas Llosa). Is it a.) acceptable to accept the "second last name" (in the case of Mario Vargas Llosa, that'd be "Llosa") and/or b.) if not, is it acceptable to prompt on the "second last name"? I ask this because I noticed there are some discrepancies between answerlines and reader commands listed to the answerline.

For instance;
Early Fall Tournament 2010. Round 5; Question 13 wrote:He’s not W. Somerset Maugham, but this man wrote a novel which follows the lives of Paul Gauguin and his feminist grandmother Flora Tristan. This author of The Way to Paradise also wrote a novel which centers on a group of cadets at the Leoncio Prado Military Academy, as well as another work in which the Nearsighted Journalist investigates an uprising against the Brazilian government by the villagers of Canudos. In addition to The Time of the Hero and The War of the End of the World, and another novel’s even-numbered chapters consist of radio serials by Pedro Camacho. For 10 points, name this Peruvian novelist of Aunt Julia and the Scriptwriter.
ANSWER: Mario Vargas Llosa (do not prompt on partial answer)
^ Obviously, this answerline and adjacent reader commands differ from this;
TJ NAREN 2010. Round 10; Question 19 wrote:This man examined Madame Bovary in his essay The Perpetual Orgy, and in one of this author's works Bonificia and Father Garcia are two characters brought to Don Anselmo's title structure. Santiago Zavala and Ambrosio meet by chance at a dog pound in Conversation at the Cathedral, and this author of The Green House wrote a novel about conflict between the military and Antonio Conselheiro's followers in The War of the End of the World. Another of his novels features radio soap opera writer Pedro Camacho and Lucho's sister-in-law who journalist Mario falls in love with. For 10 points, name this author of Aunt Julia and the Scriptwriter.
ANSWER: Mario Vargas Llosa [prompt on partial]
So I ask; what is the correct way to write or edit a tossup on Mario Vargas Llosa when it comes to providing answerline notations on when and when not to prompt? And to just really clarify, should prompts occur if only the "second" last name is given? It wasn't a tossup on Vargas Llosa but another author where the other team just answered the "second" last name and it was accepted (no prompts) and then I looked the name up on Torrey Pines/database and one of the sets said "do not prompt on ["second" last name]" for the same person.

Second; when it comes to Japanese authors, what is the best way to say the answer and receive credit for it? Are both names ultimately necessary? I also noticed some inconsistencies with answerlines when I looked up Yasunari Kawabata (or Kawabata Yasunari? I'm going off what Wiki has him as), there were questions that said ANSWER: Kawabata Yasunari [accept names in either order] but then I looked in an ACF Fall packet and it only had "Kawabata" underlined with no alternative answers or notes.
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Re: Questions about answer acceptance regarding last names

Post by Black-throated Antshrike »

Paula Pareto Optimality wrote:Second; when it comes to Japanese authors, what is the best way to say the answer and receive credit for it? Are both names ultimately necessary? I also noticed some inconsistencies with answerlines when I looked up Yasunari Kawabata (or Kawabata Yasunari? I'm going off what Wiki has him as), there were questions that said ANSWER: Kawabata Yasunari [accept names in either order] but then I looked in an ACF Fall packet and it only had "Kawabata" underlined with no alternative answers or notes.
Japanese names should be accepted in either order because in Japanese, the family name comes first i.e. Murakami Haruki, as opposed to English where the family name comes last i.e. Haruki Murakami. It's mostly just a matter of style and preference on which way you put the names, although both should be correct.
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Re: Questions about answer acceptance regarding last names

Post by mtimmons »

Certainly either order should be acceptable for Japanese names or really any names as well. I can't imagine any reason to not accept Obama, Barack for instance. The part that makes Japanese names particularly confusing is that Western sources sometimes uses the typical Japanese ordering and sometimes uses typical Western ordering [the case of Natsume Soseki is even more confusing as everyone calls him Soseki despite Natsume being the surname]. Korean and Chinese names have the same convention but virtually everyone uses the typical East Asian ordering when giving those names so the confusion is considerably less.
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Re: Questions about answer acceptance regarding last names

Post by bag-of-worms »

For what it's worth, I have seen works of Mario Vargas Llosa at the UIUC library with just "Llosa" printed on the spine. Same with Federico Garcia Lorca.
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Re: Questions about answer acceptance regarding last names

Post by Stained Diviner »

ACF rules address this issue. Specifically,
4.1. Compound last names must be given in their entirety, and a partial last name will not be prompted. E.g., “García Márquez” and “van Buren” are the required parts of the answer for Gabriel García Márquez and Martin van Buren, and answers such as “Marquez” or “Buren” are outright incorrect. It is acceptable to give a partial last name for people with formally compound last names when those people are usually referred to by a part of their name—e.g., “Pablo Picasso” is acceptable for “Pablo Ruiz y Picasso.”
That being said, this is a rule I do not agree with, especially for high school or middle school level quizbowl, and when I get to decide what the rules are, Márquez or Llosa gets a prompt. The same thing is true for the wrong half of an East Asian name.
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Re: Questions about answer acceptance regarding last names

Post by Sniper, No Sniping! »

What is NAQT's policy?
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Re: Questions about answer acceptance regarding last names

Post by Stained Diviner »

NAQT correctness guidelines state, "Players will be prompted if they give part of a compound last name (e.g., saying Webber for Andrew Lloyd Webber.)" They don't directly address foreign names, though this guideline probably is good enough.
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Re: Questions about answer acceptance regarding last names

Post by Marble-faced Bristle Tyrant »

ACF/HSAPQ also addresses the name order thing
HSAPQ G.4 wrote:For names from cultures in which the family name precedes the given name, such as Chinese or Japanese names, the family name is necessary to receive credit for a correct response. The player can give either the native order of naming, with family name first, or the Anglicized order, with family name last, as an acceptable answer. An answer of the given name only will not be accepted or prompted, unless the person is widely known by a pseudonym consisting of his given name, which is acceptable under rule G.17.
I could have sworn I've seen a rule somewhere extending this to all names, and not just Asian, Hungarian, Bajoran etc names.
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Re: Questions about answer acceptance regarding last names

Post by Important Bird Area »

Leucippe and Clitophon wrote:NAQT correctness guidelines state, "Players will be prompted if they give part of a compound last name (e.g., saying Webber for Andrew Lloyd Webber.)" They don't directly address foreign names, though this guideline probably is good enough.
This guideline applies to foreign names as well (so that our standards are, eg, Vargas Llosa (prompt on partial last name)).
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Re: Questions about answer acceptance regarding last names

Post by Kyle »

I don't know if I'm supposed to post specific content from the HSNCT outside the HSNCT thread, so let me just say that somebody from Dorman answered the given name of a prominent Chinese leader instead of his surname then was negged without prompting. Eric Huff promptly protested from the audience, but it didn't affect the result so it wasn't resolved. I would have ruled against the protest; Dorman was indeed wrong and deserved to lose 5 points.
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Re: Questions about answer acceptance regarding last names

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo »

We should be finding as many ways as we can for answers to be ruled correct, as long as they are close enough to right. In general, we shouldn't have rules with narrow definitions of what is right or wrong if we don't have to. Having a kid buzz in and say "Marquez!" enthusiastically because he read one of his books in Literature class and being negged for it should not just be termed a "learning experience."
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Re: Questions about answer acceptance regarding last names

Post by fett0001 »

Why are literature questions on works and authors being treated as ways to punish students for incomplete education on foreign language naming conventions? I don't know how someone who has read Vargas Llosa's works would that his last name is not simply Llosa. I think it's important to look at what knowledge the question is actually trying to test.


Image

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How is a highschooler going be able to tell which author has a compound last name vs a famous second given name?
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Re: Questions about answer acceptance regarding last names

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

Well, if a player mistakenly thinks "Bysshe Shelley" is his full last name and says that, they still will get the points because they said his name. If a player says "Llosa" they still get the chance to say his full last name after that because they should be prompted on it. Given that, yeah, Vargas Llosa is the guy's name, I don't see why any less than prompting to get the guy's full name is correct, and this still is very lenient for the player.
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Re: Questions about answer acceptance regarding last names

Post by Sniper, No Sniping! »

Obviously, some compound last names are evident by hyphens in name, such as David Lloyd-George, Alfred Radcliffe-Brown or Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov, so there shouldn't be any excuse for only giving the last half there in those situations.

How common is it that Americans have compound names? For instance, should an answerline for John Singer Sargent be John Singer Sargent or John Singer Sargent?
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Re: Questions about answer acceptance regarding last names

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

Paula Pareto Optimality wrote:How common is it that Americans have compound names? For instance, should an answerline for John Singer Sargent be John Singer Sargent or John Singer Sargent?
Given that his last name is just Sargent, why would you ever require his middle name?
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Re: Questions about answer acceptance regarding last names

Post by Sniper, No Sniping! »

Horned Screamer wrote:
Paula Pareto Optimality wrote:How common is it that Americans have compound names? For instance, should an answerline for John Singer Sargent be John Singer Sargent or John Singer Sargent?
Given that his last name is just Sargent, why would you ever require his middle name?
Actually, I didn't know whether Singer was his middle name or if it was part of a compound name.
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Re: Questions about answer acceptance regarding last names

Post by Cheynem »

I'm actually confused about Garcia Lorca, as I was told by someone who had studied him that "Lorca" should be an acceptable answer on his own.
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Re: Questions about answer acceptance regarding last names

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

Paula Pareto Optimality wrote:
Horned Screamer wrote:
Paula Pareto Optimality wrote:How common is it that Americans have compound names? For instance, should an answerline for John Singer Sargent be John Singer Sargent or John Singer Sargent?
Given that his last name is just Sargent, why would you ever require his middle name?
Actually, I didn't know whether Singer was his middle name or if it was part of a compound name.
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Re: Questions about answer acceptance regarding last names

Post by AKKOLADE »

fett0001 wrote:Why are literature questions on works and authors being treated as ways to punish students for incomplete education on foreign language naming conventions? I don't know how someone who has read Vargas Llosa's works would that his last name is not simply Llosa. I think it's important to look at what knowledge the question is actually trying to test.

How is a highschooler going be able to tell which author has a compound last name vs a famous second given name?
By learning about that author and the culture they come from.

I completely support leniency on things like this at most tournaments, but at the ones that "matter" - nationals and the ilk - I have less of a problem with not giving people credit for not actually knowing an author's surname.
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Re: Questions about answer acceptance regarding last names

Post by Susan »

Paula Pareto Optimality wrote:Obviously, some compound last names are evident by hyphens in name, such as David Lloyd-George, Alfred Radcliffe-Brown or Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov, so there shouldn't be any excuse for only giving the last half there in those situations.
Actually, David Lloyd George's surname isn't (typically) hyphenated, and Alfred Radcliffe-Brown is sort of an unusual case (he was born Alfred Brown and changed his name as an adult, so by giving "Brown" would be analogous to saying "Clay" when the answer is "Muhammad Ali").

Regarding the question of how someone who had only read Vargas Llosa's works could be expected to know that his surname is "Vargas Llosa" and not "Llosa", I think there are quite a few ways such a reader could pick up that information; for example, the edition of Feast of the Goat Mike linked features MVL referred to as "Vargas Llosa" twice on the back cover and five times in the prefatory pages of blurbs*. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of just accepting the second part of a compound last name; I'd be fine with either prompting on a partial last name or only accepting the full last name, recognizing that the latter option requires players to have some amount of context for their knowledge and will likely lower conversion.

*Although he's also referred to as "Llosa" by Bruce Tierney of BookPage, tsk tsk.
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Re: Questions about answer acceptance regarding last names

Post by InspectorHound »

Is there an argument to be made for underlining only the first surname (the paternal family name) for authors of Spanish descent? Maternal surnames are omitted from many answerlines where authors use their father's family name primarily (Paz, Fuentes, Borges, Donoso, etc.) and in my experience, Spanish naming customs dictate that a person's first surname is an acceptable substitute for their full name.
Last edited by InspectorHound on Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Questions about answer acceptance regarding last names

Post by No Electricity Required »

Cheynem wrote:I'm actually confused about Garcia Lorca, as I was told by someone who had studied him that "Lorca" should be an acceptable answer on his own.
I was also under this impression.

Both of these things that look pretty reputable call him "Lorca":
http://www.amazon.com/Lorca-Dream-Life- ... 0374190976
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-enter ... 44906.html
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Re: Questions about answer acceptance regarding last names

Post by theMoMA »

Garcia Lorca is his actual last name, but most people who study Spanish call him "Lorca."
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Re: Questions about answer acceptance regarding last names

Post by i never see pigeons in wheeling »

If we're going to go by the dictum "don't penalize people who only have a certain bit of knowledge from having read something," then partial last names should be prompted, since many who aren't used to compound last names simply use the last name when writing about a person, as demonstrated by the Garcia Lorca students above.
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Re: Questions about answer acceptance regarding last names

Post by Black-throated Antshrike »

The textbook my AP Lit class last year used had "A Very Old Man With Enormous Wings" in it, and that only listed his name as Marquez, even though his last name is Garcia Marquez. It's not surprising that this is going to confuse some people, and I think we should be as lenient as possible in regards to this
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Re: Questions about answer acceptance regarding last names

Post by Sniper, No Sniping! »

Maybe this isn't too relevant, but for what it's worth I went to my library today looking for One Hundred Years of Solitude and by author search on the computer, the entry Garcia Marquez, Gabriel yielded zero results whilst Marquez, Gabriel Garcia yielded multiple and all of his works were under MAR as opposed to GAR. I meant to see if this was the case with Garcia Lorca, Vargas Llosa, etc but I simply didn't have enough time.
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Re: Questions about answer acceptance regarding last names

Post by Muriel Axon »

I'm also on the side of lenience at high school/early college levels. To use the example others have been using, I have rarely, if ever, seen Garcia Lorca's last name (when given alone) appear in print as anything but "Lorca," despite having read a couple of his plays (and listened to chunks of the Tim Buckley album).

Of course, I can't really extrapolate from personal experience, but basically my point is that we're not here to be pedantic. Quiz bowl veterans may know most of the rules about what is required, but the majority of quiz bowl players don't. When it comes to depth of knowledge, I would much rather someone know things about the works of Garcia Marquez or Vargas Llosa than know to give both parts of their last name, especially at lower levels of competition.

On the other hand, I wouldn't view your library's catalog as the most trustworthy source.
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Re: Questions about answer acceptance regarding last names

Post by i never see pigeons in wheeling »

The Eighth Viscount of Waaaah wrote:On the other hand, I wouldn't view your library's catalog as the most trustworthy source.
To many high schoolers, that would be THE most trustworthy source on stuff like this.
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Re: Questions about answer acceptance regarding last names

Post by David Riley »

As a retired librarian, I would say that it depends on the library. Many school libraries can barely afford the luxury of even a part-time cataloger, and when any retrospective conversion (that's library jargon for when you upgrade or switch to a new system) there are usually a lot of mistakes that are found in the old catalog. I'm with the Viscount here.
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Re: Questions about answer acceptance regarding last names

Post by Muriel Axon »

List of Fighting Spirit characters wrote:
The Eighth Viscount of Waaaah wrote:On the other hand, I wouldn't view your library's catalog as the most trustworthy source.
To many high schoolers, that would be THE most trustworthy source on stuff like this.
I don't think we're actually disagreeing here. What I mean is (like Mr. Riley says) that you shouldn't trust sources like your library catalog as authorities on quiz bowl-relevant information like author names. The fact that high schoolers (and others) often do trust these kinds of sources and soak up information from them is unfortunate but unavoidable, and I think we have to adjust to that by being lenient at lower levels.
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