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naqt.com wrote:NAQT is pleased to announce that its 2013 High School National Championship Tournament will be held at the Hyatt Regency Atlanta hotel on Memorial Day weekend, May 24-26, 2013.

The field for the tournament is limited to 256 teams.

Full details

Current field

Is there a chance of this tournament expanding to 256 teams as I heard some talking about last month?

Yes, there is some chance of expanding the field, but we will start with a 240-team base.

Does NAQT plan to post the results of the surveys teams filled out with regards to "where would you like to see HSNCT 2013 played?" (or have they already, and I'm just that naive?).

We will post the survey results once they are compiled; and, yes, location change is on the table for the 2014 HSNCT.

Down and out in Quintana Roo wrote:Is there a chance of this tournament expanding to 256 teams as I heard some talking about last month?

Is 256 really a magic number for the card system? I don't know enough about the math behind it all, but doesn't the fact that you have to have a large percentage of the field on bye every game mean that you aren't actually working with a pure 256-team power matching? If so, that would mean 256 is no more special than most other numbers the HSNCT might use I would think.

Horned Screamer wrote:

Down and out in Quintana Roo wrote:Is there a chance of this tournament expanding to 256 teams as I heard some talking about last month?

Is 256 really a magic number for the card system? I don't know enough about the math behind it all, but doesn't the fact that you have to have a large percentage of the field on bye every game mean that you aren't actually working with a pure 256-team power matching? If so, that would mean 256 is no more special than most other numbers the HSNCT might use I would think.

Certainly, I don't think it has to mean that. The proportion of x-y teams on bye each round can be calibrated so that only x-y vs x-y matches happen until after round 6, at which point that guarantee fades. For 240, the guarantee (if not the possibility, I guess) fades after round 4.

256 is in fact a magic number. The byes don't impact who plays who. With 256 teams, every team would be guaranteed to play each of their first eight matches against a team with an identical record, and at least 236 teams would play each of their ten matches against a team with an identical record.

Just to be clear, the actual number of teams without mismatches would be very close to 236, and there is a very reasonable chance it would be exactly 236. Also, no teams would start the day with a guarantee of no mismatches--the statistic means that at the end of the day at most 20 teams would have played mismatches. The maximum number of mismatches for those teams would be 2, and unfortunately the teams with 2 mismatches would play them in the same direction.

As noted above, the byes are basically irrelevant. This year with 240 teams and 80 rooms, the 15 round prelims could be split into blocks of 3. During rounds 1-3, all teams played two games. A third played 1-2, a third played 1-3, a third played 2-3. Given infinite space, that could have been 120 round 1 games and 120 round 2 games. I don't exactly know how a 256-team tournament would split up, but a similar idea of having everyone's first game, then everyone's second game, and so on with overlaps in the actual time at which they occurred wouldn't be a problem.

The fact that a team which plays two mismatches plays them in the same direction is unavoidable. Obviously the team that goes 8-0 will play a mismatch in their ninth game, and if they win they'll play another in the tenth round. Because 256 = 2^8, all games for the first eight rounds are equal matches, and it's not possible for a team to play up in their ninth game and down in their tenth or vice versa (such a combination would leave open the possibility of a two-step mismatch were the team's ninth game be reversed).

A 256-team tournament can in theory be run with the following considerations (as in, the math works out, but I haven't checked an entire card system):

LOGISTICS:
-Each team plays 10 games in 16 rounds.
-The number of prelim rooms remains the same as 2012.
-Somewhere between 95 and 98 teams make the playoffs. Of those, 43 to 45 start in the winner's bracket.
-The number of playoff rounds remains the same as 2012.

UNEVEN-RECORD GAMES:
-4 teams play exactly 1 game against a team that may not have the same record; 16 play 2 such games.
-In only 2 games could a team be eliminated from playoff contention by losing to a team with a stronger record (Round 15: 5-3 vs. 4-4; Round 16: loser of Round 14 6-2 vs. 5-3 game vs. winner of aforementioned game).
-In only 3 games could a team be eliminated from playoff contention by losing to a team already eliminated from the playoffs (Round 15: 4-4 vs. 3-5; Round 16: 5-4 vs. winner of aforementioned game; Round 16: loser of Round 15 5-3 vs. 4-4 vs. 4-5).
-In only 2 games (all of which already mentioned above) can a team be guaranteed to make the playoffs by defeating a team with a lower record.
-In only 1 game (Round 16: 7-2 or 6-3 vs. 7-2 or 6-3) can a team lose a starting place in the winner's bracket by losing to a team with a better record. Similarly, in only 1 game (2 6-3 or 5-4 teams playing, already mentioned above) can a team gain a starting place in the winner's bracket by defeating a team with a worse record.
-Thus, a maximum of 8 teams could possibly be affected, in terms of whether or not they make the playoffs and whether they start in the winner's or loser's bracket (10 teams in total are affected by these games, but 1 starts at 7-1 guaranteed winner's bracket and 1 starts at 3-5 guaranteed to miss playoffs), by having to play games involving teams with unequal records.

I'm not sure how many unequal matches there were in 2012 but I'm guessing that there were more than 20 and that more than 8 teams were in the "possibly affected" zone.

Essentially, the tradeoff is:
-1 additional packet
-No additional staffers (possibly a small number more staffers depending on how many teams send staffers and how many control rooms end up being needed)
-Potentially some amount of logistical hassle making sure bidding hotels have enough room for the extra teams

For 16 extra teams.

From a monetary standpoint, NAQT makes somewhere around $7500 more. From a participation standpoint, that's 16 more teams that get to play. If NAQT can find another 48 questions out there, expanding to 256 teams basically a win-win for everyone.

cvdwightw wrote:If NAQT can find another 48 questions out there, expanding to 256 teams basically a win-win for everyone.

The extra packet is no problem (notably: the 2011 HSNCT ran 16 rounds on Saturday). Whether the 2013 HSNCT has a 240-team or 256-team field will depend on the level of interest from teams.

bt_green_warbler wrote:We will post the survey results once they are compiled; and, yes, location change is on the table for the 2014 HSNCT.

Are they compiled yet?

Willmune Sof Burrghtenstein wrote:

bt_green_warbler wrote:We will post the survey results once they are compiled; and, yes, location change is on the table for the 2014 HSNCT.

Are they compiled yet?

Not yet; we expect to have the final results within the next few weeks.

A question about qualification: if we want to send 3 teams, does that mean we need all three of them in the top 15% in one tournament? Can A/B qualify in one tournament, and A/C qualify in another? Do you track anything about a school besides the number of teams qualified?

There's a good chance we'll end up with A/B and A/C qualification, and having to choose only one of them to go would be awkward.

conquerer7 wrote:A question about qualification: if we want to send 3 teams, does that mean we need all three of them in the top 15% in one tournament?

Yes, all teams that qualify must do so at the same tournament. Additional teams are welcome (and encouraged) to apply for wildcard bids.

conquerer7 wrote:A question about qualification: if we want to send 3 teams, does that mean we need all three of them in the top 15% in one tournament? Can A/B qualify in one tournament, and A/C qualify in another? Do you track anything about a school besides the number of teams qualified?

There's a good chance we'll end up with A/B and A/C qualification, and having to choose only one of them to go would be awkward.

Keep in mind that schools qualify for HSNCT, not players. It isn't so much that the "A" and "C" teams qualified at X tournament, but that your school qualified two teams. Any students from any of your teams may go to HSNCT from that.

Registration is now open.

bt_green_warbler wrote:

Willmune Sof Burrghtenstein wrote:

bt_green_warbler wrote:We will post the survey results once they are compiled; and, yes, location change is on the table for the 2014 HSNCT.

Are they compiled yet?

Not yet; we expect to have the final results within the next few weeks.

Where can we find this?

I don't think those have been posted; I just asked R. for a status update.

Wildcard applications for the 2013 HSNCT are now open. To apply, please send a summary of your team's accomplishments this year to hsnct [at] naqt.com.

If you would like to add a team to the standby list for the 2013 HSNCT, please contact us at hsnct [at] naqt.com.

naqt.com wrote:Counting berths reserved for state champions, there are only 12 remaining spots in the 2013 High School National Championship Tournament field for teams that qualified during the regular season. It is true that many reserved berths will go to teams that had already registered (and some teams may have to drop out), but teams interested in attending the tournament should be looking at registering sooner rather than later as the field is filling up fast.

Current field

Qualified teams should register here.

We passed 200 registered teams today. Qualified teams interested in attending should register here as soon as possible.

Current field page wrote:219 teams have confirmed spots in this tournament.
The field is capped at 240 teams. 42 spots are being reserved for teams from specific qualifying events.

If 42 of the 240 spots are still reserved, wouldn't that mean at most 198 teams could have confirmed spots in the tournament at this point?

No; we build in a buffer because we expect many of those state championship bids will be claimed by teams already in the field.

That being said, we are very near to closing the field and starting a waitlist. Teams that wish to confirm a spot in the 2013 HSNCT should register here immediately.

I am pleased to report that the field for the 2013 HSNCT has been expanded to 256 teams.

NAQT has temporarily closed the field for its 2013 High School National Championship Tournament pending the results of state championships with reserved berths. Teams with reserved berths may still register, but those with "normal" invitations are being placed on a first-come, first-served waitlist.

Current waitlist

The Hyatt Regency Atlanta is now sold out of double rooms for HSNCT weekend. We plan to announce a nearby overflow hotel in the near future.

Is 256 the number, or is there discussion of further expansion?

The 2013 HSNCT will remain at 256 teams. (Further field expansion is not viable for current numbers of game rooms/staff/packets.)

Horned Screamer wrote:Is 256 the number, or is there discussion of further expansion?

Do people really want the HSNCT field to be infinitely expansive? I worry that if the HSNCT keeps expanding every year, it will eventually become completely unmanageable. Frankly, 256 is pretty gigantic and I don't think the HSNCT ever really needs to expand past that number.

RyuAqua wrote:256 is pretty gigantic and I don't think the HSNCT ever really needs to expand past that number.

Optimistically, could we not hope that every state would have at least 6 schools with at least one nationals-caliber team some time in the future?

RyuAqua wrote:

Horned Screamer wrote:Is 256 the number, or is there discussion of further expansion?

Do people really want the HSNCT field to be infinitely expansive? I worry that if the HSNCT keeps expanding every year, it will eventually become completely unmanageable. Frankly, 256 is pretty gigantic and I don't think the HSNCT ever really needs to expand past that number.

It's clear that there is demand for a national tournament larger than 256 teams. NAQT plans to have internal discussion this summer about how to manage potential future field expansion beyond 256 teams.

The field for the 2013 NAQT HSNCT is now full. There are currently (as of April 30th) twelve teams on the waitlist.

Slightly off topic, but I am planning on running a few times while in Atlanta. Nothing too crazy, maybe a few miles every day. If anyone is interested, feel free to PM me.

itsthatoneguy wrote:Slightly off topic, but I am planning on running a few times while in Atlanta. Nothing too crazy, maybe a few miles every day. If anyone is interested, feel free to PM me.

Outside the hotel? Your best bet is to stay on streets marked NE or NW.

Kechara wrote:

itsthatoneguy wrote:Slightly off topic, but I am planning on running a few times while in Atlanta. Nothing too crazy, maybe a few miles every day. If anyone is interested, feel free to PM me.

Outside the hotel? Your best bet is to stay on streets marked NE or NW.

Thanks. Last year we just went to that park with the large fountain in the middle, and that seemed fine.

Centennial Olympic Park?

Marble-faced Bristle Tyrant wrote:Centennial Olympic Park?

Yes, that would be Centennial Olympic Park

If you want to run through a park, I would recommend going to Piedmont Park or the nearby Beltline Trail. There's also a running/bike trail that starts in the Centennial Park area and heads towards Stone Mountain that's fairly nice.

Hello,
Mr. Hoppes:
I will be a first time participant at this year's HSNCT. I have one question. Will you post schedules and matchups for the preliminary rounds? If so, when will these the posted?
Thanks.

intheshadowofgreatness wrote:Hello,
Mr. Hoppes:
I will be a first time participant at this year's HSNCT. I have one question. Will you post schedules and matchups for the preliminary rounds? If so, when will these the posted?
Thanks.

I'm notably not Mr. Hoppes, but I know I've never known NAQT to reveal first round match-ups in advance of the start of the tournament. Moreover, no one knows who your subsequent matches are against since they use a card system where your next match pairs you with someone with a similar or equal record, as explained upthread. Have fun!

intheshadowofgreatness wrote:Hello,
Mr. Hoppes:
I will be a first time participant at this year's HSNCT. I have one question. Will you post schedules and matchups for the preliminary rounds? If so, when will these the posted?
Thanks.

The schedule is here. As Coach Price mentioned, HSNCT uses a card system that matches teams based on their results within the tournament on Saturday, so it is not possible to post matchups in advance of the tournament.

Thanks for explaining.
Also, I just realized that I sounded like a third grader in that post.

Out of curiosity, what determines a team's first opponent? (I apologize if I am asking too many questions about the secret inner workings of NAQT.)

The field is seeded 1 to 256 and then divided into groups of 16 teams. Each 16-team group plays its first four rounds within the group (after every team has completed four rounds of play, the group will contain one 4-0 team, four 3-1 teams, six 2-2 teams, four 1-3 teams, and one 0-4 team). Then those records are used to pair up the teams across groups for the fifth round of play, etc.

This thread from the 2011 HSNCT may be of interest. (The system is still the same, although the precise numbers of teams have now changed.)

Ryan Liu and I will be running the blog/liveblog this year. Let us know if you have any suggestions for this iteration of the liveblog.

I'm not familiar with Ryan Liu; Ryan, if you're reading this, would you mind introducing yourself?

Can anyone give me statistics on how many stand-by teams generally end up playing? We've got our "B" team at #1 on standby. I've told them that I'm about 99% sure they'll get to play. Has there ever been a year in which no standby teams were used?

Last year 11 teams that were on the standby list on May 20th played HSNCT.

This year we expect to need fewer standby teams; note that there is still an eight-team waitlist to enter the field.

huff paste wrote:Ryan Liu and I will be running the blog/liveblog this year. Let us know if you have any suggestions for this iteration of the liveblog.

Harry, I also have CoverItLive set up for the event itself. Email me if you'd like the information ahead of time or I can just get it to you Friday in Atlanta.