## Bonus Bounce-back/Negs Question

Dormant threads from the high school sections are preserved here.
biggiebird89
Wakka
Posts: 135
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:31 am
Contact:

### Bonus Bounce-back/Negs Question

Howdy all - quick question just to clarify a common procedure at some QB tournaments.

Situation: Team "A" and Team "B" are playing an untimed 20/20 game of QB WITH bounce-backs on bonuses.

Team "A" earns a 3-part bonus after a correctly-answered tossup question. The moderator reads Team "A" their first bonus, they get 5 seconds to begin their answer. In the event that Team "A" doesn't answer/answers incorrectly:
(a) Does Team "B" get 5 seconds to answer? (b) If Team "B" gets this bonus correct, do they get 10 points, or 5 points for stealing the bonus?

Finally, when tournaments have bounce-backs on bonus questions, are negs/-5s generally also played as well on tossups, do most tournaments do one or the other, or is it just TD discretion when choosing?

Just kind of feeling out ideas for a possible new tournament to be played at my high-school this coming fall. Thanks for the opinions/help.
~Garrett~
2011 Graduate - Lyndon State College
Former V.P. - L.S.C. chapter of Sigma Zeta Honor Society

The Goffman Prophecies
Quizbowl Detective Extraordinaire
Posts: 1648
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 10:25 pm
Location: Wichita, KS

### Re: Bonus Bounce-back/Negs Question

Of the NSC, HSNCT, and NASAT, NSC is the only one that uses bouncebacks as part of a national tournament. I'd recommend taking a look over our rules to get an understanding for how it works. Here's the short version:

On the rebound, Team B must answer "immediately." They would earn 10 points for stealing the bonus part.

PACE uses powers and no negs (20/10) with its format, but there are plenty of tournaments that run with 10/-5 and bouncebacks (or 15/10/-5 when appropriate).
Dan Goff

Virginia Tech '13
South Carolina '15
and a couple other places
Not Thomas Dale HS

STAAATS

dtaylor4
Auron
Posts: 3733
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 11:43 am

### Re: Bonus Bounce-back/Negs Question

To echo Dan, standard practice is for rebounded bonus parts to be worth the same.

As to timing, some tournaments use 5 seconds, some use 3.

As to including negs/powers on top of rebounds, if it is your tournament, it is entirely your decision. To me, the issue comes down to the quality of staff. If most staffers have little experience with negs, powers, or rebounds, I would lean towards keeping it simpler.

biggiebird89
Wakka
Posts: 135
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:31 am
Contact:

### Re: Bonus Bounce-back/Negs Question

Understandable on all parts. More than likely if this tournament goes, it would be a Fall Novice mirror, and many of the teams in this area do not play with negs OR bouncebacks on bonuses. The format played is a WEIRD hybrid of a 4-quarter format (I say "weird" because I played it for 6 years and can attest to it after TDing 2 tournaments myself under 20/20 formatting).

My thought was doing the bounce-backs and no negs, mainly because 1.) I'd have inexperienced moderators/scorekeepers, and 2.) Since teams around here don't play with negs (typically), why penalize them for incorrect answers, but rather have them focus on trying to provide correct answers. It'd be easier, especially for teams that don't see a lot of good QB in our area, and more beneficial.
~Garrett~
2011 Graduate - Lyndon State College
Former V.P. - L.S.C. chapter of Sigma Zeta Honor Society

Stained Diviner
Auron
Posts: 4725
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2004 6:08 am
Location: Chicagoland
Contact:

### Re: Bonus Bounce-back/Negs Question

You have to be careful doing bouncebacks with inexperienced moderators. Inexperienced moderators often are not good at firmly calling time and moving on to the next question. When this is the case, using bouncebacks can lengthen matches, and you have to keep in mind that your tournament can only run as fast as the slowest moderator. If you can train all your moderators and specifically address this issue, and you have confidence in your moderators, then this might not be a big issue. However, bouncebacks and inexperienced moderators can be a deadly combination.

Getting rid of bouncebacks doesn't solve the problem of inexperienced moderators, but it does lessen it. It prevents forty minute rounds from turning into fifty minute rounds. NSC and a few other tournaments can get away with bouncebacks because they have a good moderator in each room.
David Reinstein
PACE VP of Outreach, Head Writer and Editor for Scobol Solo and Masonics (Illinois), TD for New Trier Scobol Solo and New Trier Varsity, Writer for NAQT (2011-2017), IHSSBCA Board Member, IHSSBCA Chair (2004-2014), PACE Member, PACE President (2016-2018), New Trier Coach (1994-2011)

biggiebird89
Wakka
Posts: 135
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:31 am
Contact:

### Re: Bonus Bounce-back/Negs Question

That, and the fact that with the set we'd use (hopefully being the Fall Novice set), we are not allowed to time the matches to restrict such happenings (i.e. 40 minute matches, etc.) We had this issue happen at my "Quest for the Nest" tournament last November, where one moderator (who openly said he wasn't comfortable moderating [not to me, mind you, the TD] but did anyway) took 40 minutes for a match to happen, which bumped us back in time MORE than we previously had been, and cause a whole domino effect of sorts for the rest of our tournament.

I would like to think that we would have some experienced moderators at this event considering that at the local QB league that we have, coaches/asst. coaches are REQUIRED to participate as judges/moderators/scorekeepers for league events (an "event" is held every other week for 5 total matches). Obviously this isn't something that can be banked on or thought of as a "high certainty" kind of logic. If worse comes to worse, we can scrap the idea of bouncebacks if we felt it was going to become a time strain. The idea of using/not using negs in a region where they are traditionally NOT used would be the next idea to ponder.
~Garrett~
2011 Graduate - Lyndon State College
Former V.P. - L.S.C. chapter of Sigma Zeta Honor Society

Blackboard Monitor Vimes
Posts: 2286
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 5:40 pm
Location: Richmond, VA

### Re: Bonus Bounce-back/Negs Question

I wouldn't plan on using the Fall Novice set, since to the best of my knowledge it's not happening this year.
Sam (Sarah Angelo) Luongo,
Maggie L. Walker Governor's School 2010 / UVA 2014 / VCU School of Education 2016
President, PACE
Member, ACF

jonpin
Forums Staff: Moderator
Posts: 2045
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 6:45 pm
Location: BCA NJ / WUSTL MO / Hackensack NJ

### Re: Bonus Bounce-back/Negs Question

In most tournaments where they are used, bouncebacks are generally "immediate", so that prompting occurs right away or after a one-second pause. The only exception to this in my experience is on math calc bonuses, where Team B is generally allowed the entire "thinking" time regardless of how quickly Team A gives their wrong answer (this is to avoid Team A being able to nuke an entire calc bonus by passing instantly on all three parts).
Jon Pinyan
Coach, Bergen County Academies (NJ); former player for BCA (2000-03) and WUSTL (2003-07)
HSQB forum mod, PACE member
Stat director for: NSC '13-'15, '17; ACF '14, '17, '19; NHBB '13-'15; NASAT '11

"A [...] wizard who controls the weather" - Jerry Vinokurov

biggiebird89
Wakka
Posts: 135
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:31 am
Contact:

### Re: Bonus Bounce-back/Negs Question

Sarah - any particular reason (if there is any) that the FNT set isn't being produced for this year? That's a big disappointment, as the 2 tournaments I ran with it I've had nothing but great comments about the overall distribution and difficulty level of the set. Not too hard, not too easy, just about right for the teams who were playing.

Personally I don't see any issue with something like a 3 second period from the time the moderator says "incorrect", but again, it's a matter of having a moderator who's efficient enough to call a prompt, "Incorrect, (team name)?" and allow a strict time period. Again, not necessarily something that can be banked on.
~Garrett~
2011 Graduate - Lyndon State College
Former V.P. - L.S.C. chapter of Sigma Zeta Honor Society

Mechanical Beasts
Banned Cheater
Posts: 5673
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:50 pm

### Re: Bonus Bounce-back/Negs Question

biggiebird89 wrote:Sarah - any particular reason (if there is any) that the FNT set isn't being produced for this year? That's a big disappointment, as the 2 tournaments I ran with it I've had nothing but great comments about the overall distribution and difficulty level of the set. Not too hard, not too easy, just about right for the teams who were playing.
No one volunteered to edit it, so at no point was the call put out for writers, etc. I think the original FNT was around half-done at this point in the summer, anyway, so it's generally a safe bet that if there were shadowy plans to have a FNT you'd have heard of them by now.
Andrew Watkins

biggiebird89
Wakka
Posts: 135
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:31 am
Contact:

### Re: Bonus Bounce-back/Negs Question

Understandable. Such a shame, 'cause this provided a great way for a young tournament like the one I've TDd for 2 years to get off the ground and going without much in the way of financial burden at all.
~Garrett~
2011 Graduate - Lyndon State College
Former V.P. - L.S.C. chapter of Sigma Zeta Honor Society

dtaylor4
Auron
Posts: 3733
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 11:43 am

### Re: Bonus Bounce-back/Negs Question

biggiebird89 wrote:Understandable. Such a shame, 'cause this provided a great way for a young tournament like the one I've TDd for 2 years to get off the ground and going without much in the way of financial burden at all.
There's always the SCOP Novice set.

biggiebird89
Wakka
Posts: 135
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:31 am
Contact:

### Re: Bonus Bounce-back/Negs Question

dtaylor4 wrote:
biggiebird89 wrote:Understandable. Such a shame, 'cause this provided a great way for a young tournament like the one I've TDd for 2 years to get off the ground and going without much in the way of financial burden at all.
There's always the SCOP Novice set.
Which this would be the other set I've been contacted about possibly using. I've been in email contact with a gentleman associated with the set about possibly using a mirror of it this fall if my event(s) end up running. I'm also assisting with the set by trying to write questions for the event (having never written QB questions before), so even if the event(s) I'm planning don't end up running, I can at least say I assisted with the process. (On that note, if anyone has any suggestions or would be willing to proofread/edit the questions I have to write, I would ABSOLUTELY, BEYOND ANY DOUBT appreciate the suggestions/criticism, etc.

My whole issue previously was finances, since there wasn't any certainty of what the club I ran this with would make for profit, therefore there'd be no certainty if there would be any gain or loss after the fact - paying a per-team charge for questions would've added to that. This year I don't so much mind that because I understand the process now and what it would take to supplement getting around that with prices, etc.
~Garrett~
2011 Graduate - Lyndon State College
Former V.P. - L.S.C. chapter of Sigma Zeta Honor Society

ryanrosenberg
Auron
Posts: 1408
Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 5:48 pm
Location: Chicago, Illinois

### Re: Bonus Bounce-back/Negs Question

biggiebird89 wrote:On that note, if anyone has any suggestions or would be willing to proofread/edit the questions I have to write, I would ABSOLUTELY, BEYOND ANY DOUBT appreciate the suggestions/criticism, etc.
The ACF feedback program would be a good place to start; you'll find experienced writers and editors who are willing to help you.
Ryan Rosenberg
North Carolina '16 | Ardsley '12
PACE | ACF

biggiebird89
Wakka
Posts: 135
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:31 am
Contact:

### Re: Bonus Bounce-back/Negs Question

Have one more question that I pondered but couldn't find an answer to: Team A vs. Team B playing a tossup with both powers and negs on the set. Team "A" interrupts the question (before the power) and is incorrect. They receive a -5 for the wrong interruption, and the entire question is re-read to Team "B".

1.) If Team "B" interrupts the question before the power mark, do they still get the 15 points for the power if they are correct?
2.) If Team "B" interrupts and is incorrect, do they still get the -5 for the incorrect interruption? (obviously why they'd interrupt a fully-re-read question OTHER than to get a power mark is beyond me, but QB is QB is QB).

Just want to make sure I have that understood correctly.
~Garrett~
2011 Graduate - Lyndon State College
Former V.P. - L.S.C. chapter of Sigma Zeta Honor Society

Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)
Chairman of Anti-Music Mafia Committee
Posts: 5640
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:46 pm
Location: Columbia, MO

### Re: Bonus Bounce-back/Negs Question

There is NEVER more than one neg per tossup. The first team to interrupt is the only team to neg, no matter what.

If you buzz in during the power, you always power the tossup no matter what the situation is.
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08
"I won't say more because I know some of you parse everything I say." - Jeremy Gibbs

"At one TJ tournament the neg prize was the Hampshire College ultimate frisbee team (nude) calender featuring one Evan Silberman. In retrospect that could have been a disaster." - Harry White

Whiter Hydra
Auron
Posts: 1176
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:46 pm
Location: Fairfax, VA
Contact:

### Re: Bonus Bounce-back/Negs Question

Also, in almost all tournaments, moderators don't re-read the question to the other team. They just start from where the other team negged.
Harry White
TJHSST '09, Virginia Tech '13
VP of Technology, PACE
Owner of Tournament Database Search and Quizbowl Schedule Generator
Will run stats for food

biggiebird89
Wakka
Posts: 135
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:31 am
Contact:

### Re: Bonus Bounce-back/Negs Question

Communi-Bear Silo State wrote:Also, in almost all tournaments, moderators don't re-read the question to the other team. They just start from where the other team negged.
That might've just been a flashback to when I played QB under the format I played. If a team interrupted a tossup, the other team was read the ENTIRE question (start to finish), and then could buzz in whenever they chose to. Mind you, we played on (essentially) one-line style tossups, there were no powers/negs, etc. Hence why it would seem kind of odd to me to continue reading the question from the spot of the neg, especially since IF the first team negs AFTER the power, it doesn't provide the 2nd team the chance to power (then again, the argument can be made - "Well, they should've buzzed sooner, obviously.")
~Garrett~
2011 Graduate - Lyndon State College
Former V.P. - L.S.C. chapter of Sigma Zeta Honor Society

Whiter Hydra
Auron
Posts: 1176
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:46 pm
Location: Fairfax, VA
Contact:

### Re: Bonus Bounce-back/Negs Question

biggiebird89 wrote:Hence why it would seem kind of odd to me to continue reading the question from the spot of the neg, especially since IF the first team negs AFTER the power, it doesn't provide the 2nd team the chance to power (then again, the argument can be made - "Well, they should've buzzed sooner, obviously.")
They already had their chance to power, and they blew it. Reading them the exact same stuff they heard before isn't going to provide them with any new clues.
Harry White
TJHSST '09, Virginia Tech '13
VP of Technology, PACE
Owner of Tournament Database Search and Quizbowl Schedule Generator
Will run stats for food

biggiebird89
Wakka
Posts: 135
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:31 am
Contact:

### Re: Bonus Bounce-back/Negs Question

Understandable. Hence why I felt it better to ask which way was more widely-accepted. It wasn't so much about the clues, more than it was about the power opportunity. I see now that it's more about having said knowledge and being quickest to respond. Makes more sense to me.
~Garrett~
2011 Graduate - Lyndon State College
Former V.P. - L.S.C. chapter of Sigma Zeta Honor Society