Illinois '12-'13

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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by mlaird » Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:40 pm

Hey people, I could use a few more staff members for Kickoffs at Loyola on 11/17. $50 and pizza are up for grabs if you are interested and available.

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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by shrey96 » Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:06 pm

So now that I have played most of the teams in question, I think I can offer my $0.02 on how IL is going to turn out this year.

1. IMSA. They're a super solid team. I've only played Anton a few times, but he's scary good.

2. Loyola. Ian and Morgan are incredibly good players, and they have other solid players too, like Zach and Rosie. Overall, they seem to be a very good team, and they are a VERY close second - I wouldn't be shocked to see them take down IMSA at a tournament or two.

3. Macomb. Tristan is a monster. I had the pleasure of playing on his team three times during ACE Camp, and all three times he never failed to amaze me with the depth and breadth of his knowledge. I don't know if they come to many things up north, but when they do, they will be a force to reckon with.

4. Auburn. I think they're underrated right now. Although they're still trying to find their footing as a team, once they do, the balanced scoring will be difficult to overcome. I think this is best exemplified by what happened at ACF Fall; they weren't at the top of their game in the early morning rounds, but once they started to figure their team out, they got to the upper bracket and beat Belvidere North. With continual studying and Evan Pandya's crazy love for the game, I think that Auburn will continue their tradition of being an Illinois powerhouse.

5. BN. I don't feel comfortable at all putting them "below" Auburn - Dylan is an absolutely incredible player. In fact, it might be better to make this ranking a tie for fourth. But I do think that there may be times where BN may not be able to overcome such a balanced scoring effort as Auburn's.

6. Stevenson. Niranjan is really, really good. Jason is also a very good player. I'm not sure about the rest of their team, but if they study a lot throughout the season (as they have undoubtedly done during the offseason), they will definitely pick up some more good players. I have no doubts that Stevenson will find themselves in the upper echelon of Illinois teams.

7. Wheaton-Warrenville South. Anand has been a really good player, and I'm sure he's been improving in the offseason. I don't know much about the rest of their team, but I think they're almost guaranteed to do well this year because Anand is so good.

8. Wheaton North. From the few times I've played him, Thomas Birt has picked up almost every history question that he's encountered, which will undoubtedly help. But if I remember correctly, they lose a couple of good players this year. I wonder if they still have their crazy good comp math guy.

9. Carbondale. I don't think I've directly played them before, but James Zetterman was pretty good at ACE and Prerak also seems to be a good player who can provide a TON of support. I'm tentatively ranking them at 9 because I'm not exactly sure how they'll perform against the other teams on this list, but I have a feeling that they're going to have a good year.

10. Metea Valley. I feel somewhat comfortable placing us here, but we don't go to a lot of tournaments as a full team. Having a fragmented team (as we've had at MSU and ACF Fall) will undoubtedly hurt us, but a lot of players on my team are committing themselves to get better and fill some holes that our team has. At the last two tournaments, I've been able to gauge where our team is weak (history and biology), so we'll look to target that as the season goes on.

11. Fenton. Greg is a good player, but he negs a lot. If he and Rohan broaden their knowledge bases, they will certainly be able to climb this list.

12. St. Viator. At ACE, they had a couple of pretty good players (Joe comes to mind). We played them a few times last year, and they lost a few people, but I still think they're going to be alright.

Other teams that could do well:

Peoria Christian - I've never actually seen them play, but they seem to be a solid school with a capacity to do well.
Latin - I think they had some people go to and do decently well at ACE. Other than that, I'm not too sure about judging their team.
Bloomington - Played them once at last year's ATROPHY. They seemed to have some pretty decent players, and I don't think any of those guys graduated.
Last edited by shrey96 on Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by The Bold Ideas of Bernie Sanders (I-VT) » Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:37 pm

I feel like Whitney Young and what will eventually be IMSA B might be teams to watch out for by the end of the year. Both schools did quite well at our novice tournament and with a good amount of effort could finish up in the top 10.
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by Emil Nolde » Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:13 pm

I'm going to revise my ratings I think. I really would've liked to be at the ACF mirror, but even though I couldn't, it's still a good testing of peoples' mettles.

Loyola
Morgan, Ian, Zach Hayes are all pretty legit. I think they're pretty solid, all around. Yeah, DCC beat them this time but they don't come to many IL tournaments, and Loyola actually beat them in PPB by a point.

IMSA
Anton and the guys are good at what they do. However, my conception of IMSA in it's current state is basically limited to the name Karpovich, so yeah.

Belvidere North
Dylan is a top player, and he has more support than Tristan has from his guys. He does neg like it's going out of style, but it still works.

Macomb
I'm basically penalizing Tristan for being inactive. Go to some tournaments man! However, I think he'll more than likely pull out with the win on Saturday.

Stevenson, Carbondale, Metea Valley, Auburn, Wheaton North are hard to gauge at this point. This year has been slow so far, and as more data comes in, hopefully the gap will even out a bit. However, I think the top 5 are a cut above the rest of us.
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by Charles Martel » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:10 pm

thyringe_supine wrote: IMSA
Anton and the guys are good at what they do. However, my conception of IMSA in it's current state is basically limited to the name Karpovich, so yeah.
I think you missed how at ACF Fall, Sabrina put up 35 PPG while Anton put up 42 PPG.
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by David Riley » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:49 pm

I have to put in a word for Tristan here. He can certainly speak for himself, but I would guess that his "inactivity" stems from 1) there are relatively few tournaments in his area, 2) he and his team might not be able to get to more frequent tournaments further north, and 3) he may not be able to go and play as a lone player, either because he can't afford such or because the tournament will not allow rogue players. As your own coach can testify, by the time you count in tournament fees and travel expenses, tournament attendance is not cheap! I feel fairly certain that Tristan attends as many tournaments as he possibly can.
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by garciaja » Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:02 pm

On a separate note, congrats to Colby Burnett, coach for Fenwick HS, one of the best moderators in IL who just made it to the semi-finals on the Jeopardy teachers' tournament. He did a great job representing for Illinois quizbowl.
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by Emil Nolde » Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:13 pm

Charles Martel wrote:
thyringe_supine wrote: IMSA
Anton and the guys are good at what they do. However, my conception of IMSA in it's current state is basically limited to the name Karpovich, so yeah.
I think you missed how at ACF Fall, Sabrina put up 35 PPG while Anton put up 42 PPG.
I'm not saying that she isn't good, I'm just saying that I haven't really seen either of them in action enough to pass judgment. When I have played them, Anton did strike me as more effective, but that isn't speaking from much experience.

Also, I wouldn't suggest that Tristan doesn't care; I'm just meaning that regardless of whether or not there are good reasons he hasn't been able to come to things, it doesn't make sense to keep him on top when there are people that are working hard. You can't really give someone credit when they miss an event. That's sort of unfair, isn't it?
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by the return of AHAN » Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:12 pm

garciaja wrote:On a separate note, congrats to Colby Burnett, coach for Fenwick HS, one of the best moderators in IL who just made it to the semi-finals on the Jeopardy teachers' tournament. He did a great job representing for Illinois quizbowl.
GAH!! Can you put in a spoiler alert for those who haven't seen it yet?!?!?!?!
:mad:
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by David Riley » Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:39 pm

Shouldn't have been napping. :grin:
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by David Riley » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:33 pm

thyringe_supine wrote:
Charles Martel wrote:
thyringe_supine wrote:
I'm not saying that she isn't good, I'm just saying that I haven't really seen either of them in action enough to pass judgment. When I have played them, Anton did strike me as more effective, but that isn't speaking from much experience.

Also, I wouldn't suggest that Tristan doesn't care; I'm just meaning that regardless of whether or not there are good reasons he hasn't been able to come to things, it doesn't make sense to keep him on top when there are people that are working hard. You can't really give someone credit when they miss an event. That's sort of unfair, isn't it?
For one, working hard does not in itself guarantee excellence. Then, Tristan has earned his stature as one of the top players in Illinois by what he has accomplished. It certainly isn't his fault if there aren't many local tournaments, or any of the other things that I mentioned above.
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by Boeing X-20, Please! » Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:55 am

IMSA will win every single thing NAQT, probably uncontestedly and by large margins;
Loyola will be the best mACF team at least at the beginning of the year tournaments, IMSA will be second but certainly have the capability to challenge and overcome Loyola, especially as the year progresses since IMSA can actually get their other 2-3 to learn good things and score points that will largely offset the significant drop in points Anton will have between NAQT and mACF (and, I assume, Saieesh/Siva to an extent as they are also pretty good at the geographies and certainly suffer some shadow effect from Anton).
While this drop is certainly going to be real and significant, it will not be prohibitive as perhaps it (the opposite drop, from mACF to high school NAQT) was to my Loyola at various times - seen by the fact that Anton was able to still outscore Sabrina at Fall while Morgan could best me at HSNCT prelims and even NAQT state prelims the year before.
I do not see that much improvement, if any, coming out of Loyola's 3rd and 4th slots, and I would even bet Ian will be stagnant until after Winter break, although certainly he will get good for Nationals, although I doubt he will contribute as much as Morgan did by the end of last year. While this would be a cause for concern, Morgan's definitely much better at getting tossups than he and Ian have been at converting bonuses, yet they put up a surprisingly good PPB at ACF Fall (even though they went to the wrong mirror) and his G/N was also surprisingly good, which I mention because his performance alone will definitely dictate how well the team does, much moreso than my performance was in the past year (so even when he gets much better than I was, it will take a lot more to be on a better team as he doesn't have a Morgan sitting next to him, although obviously Ian will still contribute).
While I would say Loyola and IMSA will be worse in the absolute this year than they were last year, they will also probably better comparatively to the rest of the nation; IMSA could definitely finish in the top 4 at HSNCT - and, in my opinion, deserve to morethan last year's IMSA's team at NSC, both of which are more deserving than Loyola's T-8th finish on NAQT questions last year - and Loyola absolutely should make the superplayoffs at NSC.
Tristan could possibly win something during the year, I guess - especially since I believe Morgan has said he does not match up well in games against Tristan, much as say, I had to rely on others to get things to win games against Alex Kling - and would probably win at a tournament analogous to Niles West/IMSANITY for last year's Loyola. It is clear that Anton and Morgan are pretty much at the same level as Dylan, who I guess was supposed to be the top generalist this year? (other than Tristan?), so with the absolute lack of support he will get, he won't be able to win anything, similar to a Ken Barbery or Andrew Deveau. Auburn won't quite get good enough to matter that much this year.

Of course, the most important thing this year is that all games between Illinois teams this year will be boring because everybody likes everybody else too much.
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:52 am

Boeing X-20, Please! wrote:Of course, the most important thing this year is that all games between Illinois teams this year will be boring because everybody likes everybody else too much.
False. I had a ton of fun moderating the first Loyola/Belvidere North tilt at ACF Fall. The spite might not be there, but it's not being replaced by dullness.
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by MorganV » Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:30 am

Boeing X-20, Please! wrote:IMSA will win every single thing NAQT, probably uncontestedly and by large margins;
Loyola will be the best mACF team at least at the beginning of the year tournaments, IMSA will be second but certainly have the capability to challenge and overcome Loyola, especially as the year progresses since IMSA can actually get their other 2-3 to learn good things and score points that will largely offset the significant drop in points Anton will have between NAQT and mACF (and, I assume, Saieesh/Siva to an extent as they are also pretty good at the geographies and certainly suffer some shadow effect from Anton).
While this drop is certainly going to be real and significant, it will not be prohibitive as perhaps it (the opposite drop, from mACF to high school NAQT) was to my Loyola at various times - seen by the fact that Anton was able to still outscore Sabrina at Fall while Morgan could best me at HSNCT prelims and even NAQT state prelims the year before.
I do not see that much improvement, if any, coming out of Loyola's 3rd and 4th slots, and I would even bet Ian will be stagnant until after Winter break, although certainly he will get good for Nationals, although I doubt he will contribute as much as Morgan did by the end of last year. While this would be a cause for concern, Morgan's definitely much better at getting tossups than he and Ian have been at converting bonuses, yet they put up a surprisingly good PPB at ACF Fall (even though they went to the wrong mirror) and his G/N was also surprisingly good, which I mention because his performance alone will definitely dictate how well the team does, much moreso than my performance was in the past year (so even when he gets much better than I was, it will take a lot more to be on a better team as he doesn't have a Morgan sitting next to him, although obviously Ian will still contribute).
While I would say Loyola and IMSA will be worse in the absolute this year than they were last year, they will also probably better comparatively to the rest of the nation; IMSA could definitely finish in the top 4 at HSNCT - and, in my opinion, deserve to morethan last year's IMSA's team at NSC, both of which are more deserving than Loyola's T-8th finish on NAQT questions last year - and Loyola absolutely should make the superplayoffs at NSC.
Tristan could possibly win something during the year, I guess - especially since I believe Morgan has said he does not match up well in games against Tristan, much as say, I had to rely on others to get things to win games against Alex Kling - and would probably win at a tournament analogous to Niles West/IMSANITY for last year's Loyola. It is clear that Anton and Morgan are pretty much at the same level as Dylan, who I guess was supposed to be the top generalist this year? (other than Tristan?), so with the absolute lack of support he will get, he won't be able to win anything, similar to a Ken Barbery or Andrew Deveau. Auburn won't quite get good enough to matter that much this year.

Of course, the most important thing this year is that all games between Illinois teams this year will be boring because everybody likes everybody else too much.

This post was a truly awe-inspiring paragon of Nolan Winklerian coherency and grammar.
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by David Riley » Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:55 am

Winklerian? Sounds like a new mode (cf. Dorian, Phrygian) :grin: :grin:
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by Guile Island » Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:56 pm

A personal evaluation of my own team: We'll be very hot/cold this year for sure. We'll be able to beat pretty much any team at times but we won't have the consistency to win anything. If my teammates and I curbed our inopportune negging a bit more I feel like we could definitely contend with IMSA and Loyola for top team in Illinois, but we're just not there yet.
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by shrey96 » Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:43 pm

Didn't want to infringe on the Loyola/Maine South kickoff thread, so I'll just post here:

For the Wheaton North Kickoff site, there are 16 teams in Uber and 32 teams in standard. From the fact that this is on an NAQT set and the tournament is Gold-Certified by PACE, does this mean:

A. The top 8 teams in Uber make HSNCT
B. The top 4 teams in Uber make NSC

Also, how many teams would qualify for NAQT State?

Thanks!
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by Mike Wong » Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:56 pm

shrey96 wrote:Didn't want to infringe on the Loyola/Maine South kickoff thread, so I'll just post here:

For the Wheaton North Kickoff site, there are 16 teams in Uber and 32 teams in standard. From the fact that this is on an NAQT set and the tournament is Gold-Certified by PACE, does this mean:

A. The top 8 teams in Uber make HSNCT
B. The top 4 teams in Uber make NSC

Also, how many teams would qualify for NAQT State?

Thanks!
NAQT state would qualify the top 25% of the total number of teams present. Thus, 12 teams would qualify. However, only teams from the upper division would qualify.
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by jonah » Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:19 am

shrey96 wrote:For the Wheaton North Kickoff site, there are 16 teams in Uber and 32 teams in standard.
Actually, there will be 18 teams in the upper division and 30 in the standard division.
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by shrey96 » Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:25 am

Oh! Sorry about that, I was just going off of the spreadsheet my coach was given. That doesn't change anything in terms of qualification, right?
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by Mike Wong » Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:11 am

shrey96 wrote:Oh! Sorry about that, I was just going off of the spreadsheet my coach was given. That doesn't change anything in terms of qualification, right?
That is correct, 12 teams from the upper division at Wheaton North Kickoff. This does not include the class A qualifier (should one exist).
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by 4nay » Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:11 pm

I think a congratulations are in order for Colby Burnett! In case you haven't seen the news yet: Fenwick teacher wins 'Jeopardy!' tournament
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by mlaird » Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:22 pm

IHSA Brackets have been drawn: http://ihsa.org/NewsMedia/Announcements ... awing.aspx

This presumably means for Class AA:
Pool One: Carbondale, IMSA, Auburn/Belvidere North, ????
Pool Two: Stevenson, ????, Loyola, Macomb

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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by MahoningQuizBowler » Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:23 pm

Elgin HS is no longer hosting NHBB Northern Illinois due to a conflict with their conference tournament. As we've already announced that event for that day and it seems there is no other spot on the calendar to put it, I'm asking those who frequent this post to consider picking up the tournament. Please contact me here or on my historybowl email if that's a possibility for your school.
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by tintinnabulation » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:08 pm

In reference to things upthread, what are the requirements to qualify for NAQT State? Top 25% at a qualifying tournament? I can't find the requirements on the IHSSBCA site or here.
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by the return of AHAN » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:50 pm

(Never mind; I was mistaken as things changed this year)
Last edited by the return of AHAN on Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by Deviant Insider » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:51 pm

This article is copied from the IHSSBCA newsletter.
NAQT State: How to Qualify
by Donald Taylor, Tournament Director
Illinois has three distinct tournaments in which it crowns a “State Champion.” The majority of teams in Illinois participate in the IHSA and Masonic tournaments, but in comparison, far fewer participate in the NAQT State Championship.

Looking at the attendance for the past four years, the tournament is starting to grow. The 2009 tournament featured 16 teams, and the subsequent tournaments have included 18, 17, and 24, respectively. Given the number of active Illinois teams, a tournament that will crown a State Champion (as well as a Class A champion) and award one of the reserved bids for NAQT’s HSNCT, should seek to feature more teams.

Other than in 2008, when nine teams came to the University of Illinois, the tournament has always been held in the suburbs of Chicago. This year, the tournament is taking place at Bloomington High School on February 23rd. I will be acting as tournament director, while Coach Tim Coughlan has agreed to take on the hosting duties. I will be working closely with him to ensure that everything is in place come tournament time.

For those who are looking to make a run at the other two titles, NAQT State is an excellent opportunity to play against teams that may be making title runs as well. For those teams that aim to make the trek to NAQT HSNCT, NAQT State has a reserved berth in HSNCT for the highest-finishing team that has not yet
been accepted into the national tournament field.

One major change for this year’s NAQT State tournament is the addition of a qualification structure. For a team to qualify, it must finish in the top 25% of the field at a varsity tournament, or the top 10% at a tournament with a restricted field (this includes novice, JV, F/S, and turnabouts). Conferences and leagues count as tournaments for this purpose. If all of the qualified teams are from Class AA, the highest-finishing Class A team that finishes above the median also qualifies.

Teams who do not meet this qualification standard can apply for a wild card spot. For further details about the procedure, contact Sharon Lorinskas at <srobinson_lorinskas@yahoo.com>. Preference will be given to teams with a significant number of wins.

Unlike the Masonic and IHSA tournaments, schools may enter multiple teams. If a school’s B or C team meets the qualification standard, and the roster of that team does not feature players who played on teams that already qualified, then such teams may enter. Such teams can also apply for a wild-card spot. Such tournaments allow up-and-coming players to get experience at higher levels.

The exact format of the tournament will depend on the field size. It will likely involve a bracketed round robin, followed by bracketed playoffs. Also, if there are enough packets, record ties will be played off.

This year, a Class A State Champion will also be crowned. Only schools that are in IHSA’s Class A are eligible. The exact method for determining the champion will depend on the tournament format, which will be determined once the field is set. Note that this is distinct from NAQT’s rules regarding the Small
School auto-bid.

If you have any questions about the tournament, feel free to email me at <naqtstate@ihssbca.org>. If you have questions about NAQT rules, I strongly suggest looking over <naqt.com/rules.html>. For the most part, full NAQT rules will apply. One definite exception that has already been made is that computational math toss-ups will not be read at NAQT State. A decision has not been made as to whether rounds will be on the clock (two nine-minute halves) or untimed 20/20.

The registration fee for schools is $65 for the first team and $55 for each subsequent team. For each working buzzer a team brings, a $5 discount will be offered. A school that provides a qualified reader will receive a $10 discount per reader. Such readers must be able to read for the entire tournament. I also reserve the right to turn away such readers.

Outside staffers are also welcome to help out at the tournament. Staffers will be compensated. If travel is an issue, let me know sooner rather than later so I can do my best to make arrangements.

If you would like to register your team, please fill out the form at <www.ihssbca.org/naqtstate/register>. If you are interested in staffing the event, please fill out the form at <www.ihssbca.org/naqtstate/staff>. If you have questions about anything related to the event, do not hesitate to email me at <naqtstate@ihssbca.org>.
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by tintinnabulation » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:18 am

Thank you for the information.
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by abnormal abdomen » Mon Dec 31, 2012 4:15 pm

What set is Auburn using for Knights Challenge? It's notably less than two weeks away, and there's no thread online, nor is there a set listed on the IHSSBCA website.
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by dtaylor4 » Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:36 pm

Orangutan Surfing Civilization wrote:What set is Auburn using for Knights Challenge? It's notably less than two weeks away, and there's no thread online, nor is there a set listed on the IHSSBCA website.
According to the NAQT website, 123A.

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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by Emil Nolde » Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:28 pm

Wasn't sure where to post this, but seeing as the tournament in question was just mentioned, I guess this is the most appropriate avenue for my venting.

Anyway, so while I am not by any means angry at Coach Greene, I would ask that next year Knight's Challenge be advertised as a novice event, with a further restriction being that is open only to freshman and sophomore players, instead of just as a frosh/soph. Mahir and I, and possibly me more than him, were greatly disappointed to learn of our ineligibility to participate, and I imagine Evan Pandya wasn't happy either. For me, this was the one of only a handful of tournaments I went to last year where Ben wasn't there to gobble up my points, and this year it would've been probably one of the last where there will be no Prerak Trivedi to perform a similar feat, though perhaps in a less dominating manner.

Also, while I have high hopes for our freshmen (they're far and away better, and working harder than I was this time last year), my spider sense tells me Will Rupprecht is going to enjoy this tournament quite a lot, particularly now that we've been excluded. I am also slightly jelly of our freshmen because next year they'll get to go to it because we'll actually have seniors, pushing them to the B team, and making them eligible despite the likelihood that at that time they'll be better than I am now.

Side-note: If Fr. Lorinskas OKs it, would it be good if I moderated, since I cannot play?
EDIT:Silly me, that's not correct grammar.
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by AKKOLADE » Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:04 pm

It appears to be announced as a Frosh/Soph & Novice event on both the IHSSBCA's website and in the Scholastic Visions newsletter.
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by Emil Nolde » Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:53 pm

Well, okay, but in the future just make it clear(er) that just because you are frosh/soph does not make you eligible to play.
Also, I don't get Scholastic Visions, and most of the time only look at my team's schedule for the year, which had no such indication.
In a way it's kind of ironic that it's called a challenge when the best players are restricted from attending to give everyone else a chance.
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by AKKOLADE » Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:14 pm

Uh, novice tourneys are pretty useful for keeping a circuit healthy. There's nothing wrong with holding them. If you're really looking for such a challenge, I don't think an A set I'd your target anyway.
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by Charles Martel » Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:17 pm

I think what James is trying to say is that he believed that any frosh/soph were eligible, found out that belief was incorrect, and wishes that it had been more clearly described as a novice tournament in the first place so that he never would have had that belief.
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by mlaird » Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:59 pm

So basically there are two tournaments running simultaneously. There is a varsity novice and a f/s. Now if you are starting at the Varsity level, you shouldn't be complaining about not getting to beat up f/s teams on an A-set, man. There's a reason that varsity starters aren't allowed at either level.

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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by Dominator » Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:48 pm

mlaird wrote:So basically there are two tournaments running simultaneously. There is a varsity novice and a f/s. Now if you are starting at the Varsity level, you shouldn't be complaining about not getting to beat up f/s teams on an A-set, man. There's a reason that varsity starters aren't allowed at either level.
I agree with Adam here. Whatever requirements you have for eligibility, make them clear to people up front. Coach Greene did send such description via email to coaches, but since players didn't get to see it, some of them were surprised and frustrated.

I don't really put much stock in the "varsity starter" definition. IMSA B this year is all sophomores and has been finding itself in the upper half of uber-competitive varsity fields. None of them are "varsity starters". The team will, however, be just as dangerous as Carbondale's, except with a more balanced attack.

I personally like my F/S events truly F/S. I think they're good for the circuit in a way that novice events and divisions cannot replicate. But that's just me.
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by dtaylor4 » Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:49 pm

Dominator wrote:I personally like my F/S events truly F/S. I think they're good for the circuit in a way that novice events and divisions cannot replicate. But that's just me.
Then what do you do when someone like Ben Chametzky comes to town? I ran a very small tournament on the Fall Novice set back in 2009, and Ben Chametzky destroyed.

Freshmen and sophomores who can handle themselves at regular tournaments have nothing to gain by playing novice-level sets, including A sets.

What I think there should be more of are combined VJV tournaments, a la Springfield's January event. Granted, this requires resources most schools cannot tap into, but it provides an opportunity for teams to not have to split up resources.

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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:58 am

In theory, I wouldn't be against labeling F/S teams as F/S, the way that undergraduate teams and Division 2 teams are sometimes labeled in college tournaments. In this way, a "F/S champion" could be named at regular tournaments -- potentially with a playoff match between the top 2 F/S teams, if they're close in the standings.
In practice, this might cause an "A team" to not be the school's top performing team, which is dumb.


You want some tournaments to cater to newer players and teams; the reasons why aren't at issue in this thread, so I won't rehash them. Once upon a time, we had F/S tournaments to accomplish this goal. Back then, you couldn't really prepare for quizbowl the way you can now; freshmen could certainly try to study and compete with seniors, but experience made the difference because you had to work on buzzer speed, moderator anticipation, and all those other dumb non-knowledge things that make you better at one-line questions. F/S tournaments don't make a ton of sense anymore because the age aspect isn't important; a single high schooler, no matter the grade level, can, with just one week of really devoted studying (or more realistically, a couple weeks of moderate study), challenge some of the top 25 teams in the state. Age doesn't restrict freshmen from being good anymore, so it makes more sense to offer novice tournaments instead of F/S tournaments. If you're young and good enough to be restricted from a novice tournament, you should feel a measure of respect and pride in your work. Use the free Saturday to scorekeep, write questions, or do some homework.

I will say that the "varsity starter" criterion is something that needs to get worked on, because "varsity" is losing its meaning, too.
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by abnormal abdomen » Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:05 am

Hey, so I don't really know much about the eligibility guidelines for this tournament. Can someone post those for me? I don't really know what the eligibility rules are, but it would seem slightly strange to me if Will Rupprecht was still considered to be a novice varsity player. He was also a contributing member of Auburn's B team at the 2012 NSC. I'm not really sure what the usual protocol for eligibility at novice tournaments is, though. I also don't really know if that's even what James meant in the first place.

It would really help if Auburn posted tournament threads ahead of time, by the way.
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by Dominator » Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:31 am

dtaylor4 wrote:
Dominator wrote:I personally like my F/S events truly F/S. I think they're good for the circuit in a way that novice events and divisions cannot replicate. But that's just me.
Then what do you do when someone like Ben Chametzky comes to town? I ran a very small tournament on the Fall Novice set back in 2009, and Ben Chametzky destroyed.
You let him destroy the field. If he's a F/S who is good at quizbowl, he should be allowed to win at F/S quizbowl.
dtaylor4 wrote: Freshmen and sophomores who can handle themselves at regular tournaments have nothing to gain by playing novice-level sets, including A sets.
There are lots of things to be gained, like all of those non-knowledge things Brad mentioned. If those things are not worth his time, he should elect to not attend that tournament.
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by Deviant Insider » Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:08 am

To answer Abid's question, Auburn is using the same definition as IHSSBCA:
* Has played fewer than 40 varsity-level matches for his or her school’s top team
* Has played fewer than 80 career high school matches at any level
* Has never averaged more than 35 points per game at a varsity invitational tournament
* Has never averaged more than 20 points per game at a national championship tournament
* Has never been named to an All-Tournament Team at a high school tournament at any level
Students are eligible to play as long as they met all of the criteria one month before the date of the Novice Tournament.
I don't really have a side in the argument going on here. I figure that hosts can decide which way they want to go, and either way is valid.

I don't think the players being excluded from this tournament have nothing to gain from playing it--if a set is easier than your capabilities, it's still useful to find out which questions make it to the FTP or past power, which questions you get beaten to by students who are generally worse at quizbowl than you are, and which hard parts you miss. All that being said, if the host determines that the tournament is geared to students worse than you and makes rules to that effect, then you don't play, and there's nothing wrong with that. The good news is that your teammates, who haven't scored 100 PPG on much more difficult questions, will get more chances to answer questions themselves.
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by Emil Nolde » Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:08 pm

Doesn't that mean that each year any freshman that were in the top ten are automatically discounted? I think it would be desirable both to the players morale and to statistics to allow good players to return to the tournament, as a way to gauge progress.

Last year, I was ninth at KC. To me, that isn't really anything to brag about. I was looking forward to doing well at a tournament with the best players for my grade level. I am sick and tired of losing by a hair to players who are older than me. We lost to Greg by 5 points at HFT, and I was internally expecting Thomas Birt to beat us at NTV, especially considering how lukewarm our performance was against him at UIUC, and his great run at SCOBOL. And besides, I'm not really that good. My impressive stats at NTV came from matches against unprepared teams, combined with pretty good buzzer-racing skills. Last year we lost to Kealing at NSC, and despite how much better I've been getting I'm still not eager to face them. I'm sure if I ever got the chance to face him, Sam Blizzard would show me up, both at quizbowl and at the cool name contest. I still can't really compete on an even footing with Dylan, or Morgan, or Anton. They would put me through a world of hurt. I had forty powers at NTV. Dylan had 130. My team won Standard, his won Uber. There's a clear difference there, despite the trophies being nearly identical. Those guys have 2, 3, or 4 powers for every ten, whereas I'm hovering around .8; no one in the lower division had more powers than tens. At ACE camp, I kept getting bounced between Rooms 2 and 1. Every time I was in the top room, I would be killed by Tristan, Morgan, Dylan, Ian, and the whole DCC team. Absolutely killed. Rather than the existing criteria, I think the ability to power questions would be the best indication of whether a player can be considered 'novice', because ppg is subject to the quality of teams you play against. What stats are failing to say is how much later I would get the correct answer. Experience shouldn't matter, what should matter is how good you actually are. I am not really a good quizbowl player, I'm just better than people who don't try.
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by Mewto55555 » Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:35 pm

Pro-tip: You get good by losing to good people, not beating bad ones.
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by Banned Tiny Toon Adventures Episode » Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:39 pm

thyringe_supine wrote:Doesn't that mean that each year any freshman that were in the top ten are automatically discounted? I think it would be desirable both to the players morale and to statistics to allow good players to return to the tournament, as a way to gauge progress.

Last year, I was ninth at KC. To me, that isn't really anything to brag about. I was looking forward to doing well at a tournament with the best players for my grade level. I am sick and tired of losing by a hair to players who are older than me.
If you have time to write posts complaining about how you aren't allowed to club baby seals then go study with that time instead
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by Emil Nolde » Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:42 pm

I can't because Pb is down. Besides, what good reason is there for baby seals to be disallowed from clubbing other, weaker baby seals?
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by Charles Martel » Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:44 pm

Pb is not the only way to study. Go read books, packets, and/or wikipedia.
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by Deviant Insider » Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:28 pm

You won two tournaments and got two 2nd place finishes in the last three months.
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by Smuttynose Island » Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:57 pm

thyringe_supine wrote:Doesn't that mean that each year any freshman that were in the top ten are automatically discounted? I think it would be desirable both to the players morale and to statistics to allow good players to return to the tournament, as a way to gauge progress.
While it is nice to see how far you have progressed as a player, you play in more than one tournament a year. This means that you can gauge your improvement from one year to the next by examining your stats at non-novice tournaments. This is beneficial because not only does it show you how much better you are at beating people who are worse than you (which is the only improvement that comparing novice level stats will show you) AND it will show you if you are closing the gap between you and players who are better than you (which playing novice tournaments year in and year out will not as you are already at the top of that crop). There's also a bunch of reasons for good quizbowl players to not play novice tournaments that outweigh any "morale boost" that players such as you might gain from seeing how much better you are at "clubbing baby seals," so to speak, but I won't go into those.
thyringe_supine wrote:Last year, I was ninth at KC. To me, that isn't really anything to brag about. I was looking forward to doing well at a tournament with the best players for my grade level. I am sick and tired of losing by a hair to players who are older than me. We lost to Greg by 5 points at HFT, and I was internally expecting Thomas Birt to beat us at NTV, especially considering how lukewarm our performance was against him at UIUC, and his great run at SCOBOL. And besides, I'm not really that good. My impressive stats at NTV came from matches against unprepared teams, combined with pretty good buzzer-racing skills. Last year we lost to Kealing at NSC, and despite how much better I've been getting I'm still not eager to face them. I'm sure if I ever got the chance to face him, Sam Blizzard would show me up, both at quizbowl and at the cool name contest. I still can't really compete on an even footing with Dylan, or Morgan, or Anton. They would put me through a world of hurt. I had forty powers at NTV. Dylan had 130. My team won Standard, his won Uber. There's a clear difference there, despite the trophies being nearly identical. Those guys have 2, 3, or 4 powers for every ten, whereas I'm hovering around .8; no one in the lower division had more powers than tens. At ACE camp, I kept getting bounced between Rooms 2 and 1. Every time I was in the top room, I would be killed by Tristan, Morgan, Dylan, Ian, and the whole DCC team. Absolutely killed. Rather than the existing criteria, I think the ability to power questions would be the best indication of whether a player can be considered 'novice', because ppg is subject to the quality of teams you play against. What stats are failing to say is how much later I would get the correct answer. Experience shouldn't matter, what should matter is how good you actually are. I am not really a good quizbowl player, I'm just better than people who don't try.
You seem to have a warped definition of who a "good" and "non-novice" level quizbowl player is. Perhaps this stems from the state in which you play quizbowl as it is no secret that Illinois has been loaded with impressive individual and team talent for at least the past four years. Perhaps it stems from you self-proclaimed lack of self-confidence. Perhaps it stems from some other force, either external or internal, I do not know. Regardless, you don't measure a good, non-novice quizbowl player by their performance against High School Quizbowl's elite. Just because you can't beat the best individual high school quizbowl players or teams in the country, doesn't mean that you are a "baby seal." You were able to put up 57 ppg alongside someone who put up 61ppg at UIUC's Early Bird tournament this year, where you narrowly missed out on winning the tournament to a very good Dunbar team. You were within the top 10% of individual scorers at that tournament, which is very good. You certainly aren't a "novice" if, while playing alongside another excellent player, you are able to place that high individually in a relatively competitive field. I don't really want to come forward with a definition of what exactly makes a "novice" or a "less than good" quizbowl player, but I imagine that most would combine experience with contextualized performance (being at least in the bottom 50% of quizbowl players individually).
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Re: Illinois '12-'13

Post by Dominator » Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:20 pm

Yeah, James, you're not a novice, and you trying to argue that you're not very good is not going to get very far because everyone on here knows otherwise. This has nothing to do with my opinion about F/S events, though, because if it were my event, I would welcome you knowing that you might be the best sophomore in Illinois.

Ultimately Reinstein is right in that this is the TD's decision, and I think that if people don't like the scope of a particular tournament, they should feel free to "vote with their feet" and not attend. The invisible hand of quizbowl should take over.
thyringe_supine wrote: I'm sure if I ever got the chance to face .... Sam Blizzard
Shouldn't you later this month (at BMI3)?
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