Discuss the anime rule here

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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by The Kirk Store Called » Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:27 pm

Cheynem wrote:I have some antipathy towards anime because anime fans hijacked the boards not two years ago and posted all sorts of worthless threads and nonsense.

Also, an "orientalized" culture? Haha.
The rule long-predated that. And it's a silly reason regardless.

And Japanese culture is absolutely orientalized and sometimes stigmatized in the popular American imagination. People will naturally comment on how "weird Japan is" or talk about "inscrutability" if prompted. Temporal traits or even anecdotes from Japanese society have been treated as essentialized pathologies since the era of Matthew Perry. Mundane differences in society are used to pinpoint something uniquely "strange" (or uniquely-unique) and to support pre-concieved notions of incomprehensible other-ness. This is an exceedingly well-documented phenomenon in Japanese studies.

This kind of sentiment that specifically targets Japanese animation could not exist without the Orientalist stigmatization of Japanese popular culture as deviant and alien. Even criticizing the social profile of the typical American fan is a weak defense, because there's no My Little Pony rule.
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kroeajueluo wrote:Second, of note that there does exist serious academic relevant discussion of Japanese anime. I do remember a cinema tossup on Tokyo that mentioned The Place Promised in Our Early Days right before Tokyo Monogatari, something relatively justified since both works have probably been discussed in an academic context. Even our middle-of-nowhere shack in Hanover has hosted at least 4 different comparative literature/film studies classes featuring some degree of Japanese animation.
There also exists serious academic discussion of the Rolling Stones and Starcraft, but those are not considered Quizbowl relevant at all.

Also, I wouldn't consider an Ivy League school a "middle-of-nowhere shack".
I'd have no complaints with either popping up in a quiz-bowl question. The Rolling Stones are a major band, both in terms of musical influence and in terms of their influence on the U.S. 60's counter-culture. And e-sports are a huge industry. Both potentially perfectly relevant to quizbowl, but fortunately, there isn't a rule concerning either.

The point is that one of the major downsides of a smaller school is possible lack of access to less well-known subjects, even if they are important. For example, I-O Psychology is important , but I've certainly seen no class about it. However, there's been a growing movement to analyze Japanese animation (and its discontents), probably because it actually is becoming more important, which is partially why even I can keep finding literature classes on it.
Last edited by The Kirk Store Called on Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by AKKOLADE » Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:36 pm

Why does no one consider the disadvantages that I, a Dartmouth student, face?
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by The Kirk Store Called » Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:42 pm

Grams's Go-Go Boots wrote:Why does no one consider the disadvantages that I, a Dartmouth student, face?
Either your reading comprehension is lacking or you didn't care enough to read before trying to snark, a remarkably common tendency among Quizbowlers trying to prove how clever they are. In extreme layman's terms, the argument is that smaller colleges often overlook subjects/topics that aren't really in academic fashion at the moment, but classes continue to pop up, which is representative of the fact there has been a lot of recent academic movement on the subject.
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by Cheynem » Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:45 pm

Anime is, of course, an academic subject, but that is neither here nor there since many subjects are academically studied that we don't allow on the boards (pornography, for example).

I agree that anime gets stereotyped a bit. I disagree that it's a silly reason since among all topics on the boards, anime was the one that hijacked it for a short stint. I'm okay with it being allowed to be discussed in the off topic section.

I have no real opinion on the "orientalization" thing; I just found the pun funny (and I've read the book, so I understand the concept).
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by pajaro bobo » Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:48 pm

I don't see how the academic/quizbowl relevance of anime has anything to do with people just wanting to be able to talk about it in off-topic forums and announce side tournaments containing it.
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by Auks Ran Ova » Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:52 pm

kroeajueluo wrote:This kind of sentiment that specifically targets Japanese animation could not exist without the Orientalist stigmatization of Japanese popular culture as deviant and alien. Even criticizing the social profile of the typical American fan is a weak defense, because there's no My Little Pony rule.
The rule is not "don't talk about Japan", the rule is "don't talk about anime" (with the additional implication, DBZ tournament incident aside, that instances in which it is directly relevant to quizbowl, like that MAGNI tossup, are okay to mention). Your appeal to some imagined pattern of Orientalism is a cute bit of sophistry, but isn't really relevant. Manifold other elements of Japanese culture are discussed here all the time, with no incident. Anime discussion is banned because this is not the place for anime discussion on the internet--there are hundreds of other places to do that.

Also, I invite you to start posting about My Little Pony in order to test whether or not it will prompt punishment. (note: DO NOT DO THIS.)
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by Cheynem » Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:54 pm

I think one major problem of anime is that a lot of it is pretty off-putting or risque (yeah, I know, this is true of other pop culture things, but anime in particular--and yes, I have watched a good deal of anime and enjoy it). Discussion would have to be pretty closely monitored.

Edit: Also, come on now, this isn't about anime and we know it. If you wanted to talk about anime, you'd go to the 1,000 other websites on the boards that allow discussion of anime. This is about something else.
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by Angry Babies in Love » Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:01 pm

Something More Easily Remembered wrote:
kroeajueluo wrote:Second, of note that there does exist serious academic relevant discussion of Japanese anime. I do remember a cinema tossup on Tokyo that mentioned The Place Promised in Our Early Days right before Tokyo Monogatari, something relatively justified since both works have probably been discussed in an academic context. Even our middle-of-nowhere shack in Hanover has hosted at least 4 different comparative literature/film studies classes featuring some degree of Japanese animation.
There also exists serious academic discussion of the Rolling Stones and Starcraft, but those are not considered Quizbowl relevant at all.
...yet I can still march over to the off-topic thread and start a thread about my favorite Stones album or something something Protoss something.

Edit: The "there are thousands of places to do xxxx" argument would work if Off-Topic didn't exist but is absolute rubbish when there are equally as many places to talk about college football or my favorite television episodes yet that's also kosher on the forums. I'm not saying anime fans should be allowed to go on anime tangents on theory threads or tournament announcements without getting the requisite punishment, I just think they should be able to post in off-topic (or off-topic be changed to "things that are only more interesting as discussions with quizbowlers than as discussions with non-quizbowlers" i.e. Nobel Prize stuff, Fantasy quizbowl, etc.)
Last edited by Angry Babies in Love on Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by Cheynem » Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:02 pm

But nobody does!
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by The Kirk Store Called » Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:04 pm

Ukonvasara wrote:The rule is not "don't talk about Japan", the rule is "don't talk about anime" (with the additional implication, DBZ tournament incident aside, that instances in which it is directly relevant to quizbowl, like that MAGNI tossup, are okay to mention).
I'm not particularly swayed because the DBZ tournament incident still happened. And because the DBZ tournament incident was exceedingly troubling.
Cheynem wrote:Anime is, of course, an academic subject, but that is neither here nor there since many subjects are academically studied that we don't allow on the boards (pornography, for example).

I agree that anime gets stereotyped a bit. I disagree that it's a silly reason since among all topics on the boards, anime was the one that hijacked it for a short stint. I'm okay with it being allowed to be discussed in the off topic section.

I have no real opinion on the "orientalization" thing; I just found the pun funny (and I've read the book, so I understand the concept).
We can talk about pornography to some extent though. No one will destroy posts talking about shunga, Miller v. California, or the Los Angeles County pornography condom law. If I wanted to run a side-event with a packet all about that kind of stuff, would it get wiped?

I think it was a silly reason because the rule apparently predated the hijacking, largely caused it, and doesn't deter bad-posting in any way more effective than just any commitment to FZ bad-posts, hijacks, and trolling.
Cheynem wrote:I think one major problem of anime is that a lot of it is pretty off-putting or risque (yeah, I know, this is true of other pop culture things, but anime in particular--and yes, I have watched a good deal of anime and enjoy it). Discussion would have to be pretty closely monitored.

Edit: Also, come on now, this isn't about anime and we know it. If you wanted to talk about anime, you'd go to the 1,000 other websites on the boards that allow discussion of anime. This is about something else.
The real issue I have isn't the lack of anime discussion on off-topic forums. I don't care about that because you are very correct, I wouldn't go to HSquizbowl forums to talk about non-Quizbowl-related things.

It's about the chilling effect that a blanket ban puts on actual quizbowl.

The DBZ incident already proves that if I wanted to write a trash packet on it, it would get axed. Or a mixed trash/academic packet. Which has nothing to do with "good quizbowl" and is a blatant double-standard considering the role of the Trash Tournament sub-forums.

If I wanted to write a Japan-themed packet with an appropriate inclusion of popular culture, would it get FZ'd? That's hard to say.
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by Angry Babies in Love » Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:07 pm

Cheynem wrote:But nobody does!
Those are specific examples, though.
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by Cheynem » Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:09 pm

It doesn't prove anything because even board moderators have said that was probably an overreaction and people are free to talk about anime in legitimate quizbowl packets as much as they like. Your "chilling effect" is one incident (and if the people who got chilled by it had reasonably talked about it or pleaded their case as opposed to posting stupid stuff, they might have gotten that thread restored).
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by The Kirk Store Called » Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:17 pm

Arguing that a policy "might not hurt you" does not stop it from having a chilling effect.

As much as I would like to believe you, I don't think it qualifies as an over-reaction. Closing the DBZ thread is exactly what the policy calls for. Yes, that's unreasonable, but what's to stop a specific person from enforcing it like that again and turning to someone like you calling it unreasonable and going "well, that's what the rule says, so screw your complaints".

A strictly-enforced policy would stop me from writing a Japan-themed packet if I indicated my desire to toss notable anime in fine arts or popular culture categories, a strict enforcement I still have every reason to expect.

I'm not assuaged by "What the policy says is stupid, but we won't apply it on you if you're nice".
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by Auks Ran Ova » Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:17 pm

Cheynem wrote:It doesn't prove anything because even board moderators have said that was probably an overreaction and people are free to talk about anime in legitimate quizbowl packets as much as they like. Your "chilling effect" is one incident (and if the people who got chilled by it had reasonably talked about it or pleaded their case as opposed to posting stupid stuff, they might have gotten that thread restored).
This post is entirely correct. I'll also add that despite everything that happened with the DBZ tournament, it was still written and run (rare enough for a side event!)--no one was actually prevented from producing or taking part in it by any nebulous "chilling effect".
kroeajueluo wrote:If I wanted to write a Japan-themed packet with an appropriate inclusion of popular culture, would it get FZ'd? That's hard to say.
No. It would not. If you posted an announcement for such a packet and then used it as a pretext to talk about anime apropos of nothing, it might, but simply announcing it would not provoke punishment.
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by Auks Ran Ova » Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:24 pm

kroeajueluo wrote:Yes, that's unreasonable, but what's to stop a specific person from enforcing it like that again and turning to someone like you calling it unreasonable and going "well, that's what the rule says, so screw your complaints".
The fact that the forum staff consists of multiple people with varying opinions, and not an autocratic rulebot going "BEEP BOOP ANIME DETECTED, FIRE EYE LASERS".
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by Cheynem » Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:26 pm

The rules are about no discussion of anime for the purposes of discussing anime. You can discuss it in the context of quizbowl. The reason the DBZ thread was locked (not FZ'ed) was because it was mistakenly believed it was just about discussing anime. There isn't a chilling effect.
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by Angry Babies in Love » Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:28 pm

Cheynem wrote:The rules are about no discussion of anime for the purposes of discussing anime. You can discuss it in the context of quizbowl. The reason the DBZ thread was locked (not FZ'ed) was because it was mistakenly believed it was just about discussing anime. There isn't a chilling effect.
Then a) why is the rule not phrased that way? and b) why is it banned from the Off-Topic forums, where a discussion's connection to quizbowl is irrelevant?
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by The Kirk Store Called » Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:29 pm

Cheynem wrote:The rules are about no discussion of anime for the purposes of discussing anime. You can discuss it in the context of quizbowl. The reason the DBZ thread was locked (not FZ'ed) was because it was mistakenly believed it was just about discussing anime. There isn't a chilling effect.
So the mod team has basically agreed to no more 'DBZ tournament' incidents?

So if I was to say, announce a Japan-themed trash tournament (hypothetical, I have no intentions for this), it wouldn't be locked?
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by Cheynem » Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:31 pm

It would not be locked.

I can't say why the rule isn't written that way because I didn't write it. This is clearly what it means though seeing as how anime/manga type questions are legitimately discussed in threads.

It's banned from the off-topic forum for the reasons mentioned above.
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by The Kirk Store Called » Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:35 pm

Cheynem wrote:It would not be locked.

I can't say why the rule isn't written that way because I didn't write it. This is clearly what it means though seeing as how anime/manga type questions are legitimately discussed in threads.

It's banned from the off-topic forum for the reasons mentioned above.
Fair enough. I'm not bothered by the policy then. I still do suspect that was the original intent of the rule, but if the mod team has collectively decided to (at least now) act on your interpretation, I'm not up in arms.
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by Angry Babies in Love » Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:36 pm

Cheynem wrote:It would not be locked.

I can't say why the rule isn't written that way because I didn't write it. This is clearly what it means though seeing as how anime/manga type questions are legitimately discussed in threads.

It's banned from the off-topic forum for the reasons mentioned above.
If what it says and what it means are two different things, then why not change what it says to reflect what it means so that new users browsing the boards see the rule as it actually is enforced and not how it's currently written? I understand (only after this discussion) that quizbowl-germane anime discussion would be ok, but if I wanted to do what Kirk was proposing, I'd have no way of knowing this unless I saw this thread.
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by The Kirk Store Called » Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:07 am

I think we could assuage most people's worries if a member of the mod team posted their interpretation of the rule, which I have every reason to believe is the interpretation Mike just expressed, and link to it from the rule in question.
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by Cheynem » Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:08 am

I AM a member of the mod team!
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by fett0001 » Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:54 am

It's clear, from past events, that the community cannot trust the moderators to appropriately apply discretion pertaining to the rule and quizbowl relevant anime. I think that is reason enough to remove it.


EDIT: Furthermore, I have not seen or heard of any untoward behavior from anime fans on this board, aside from the response to the untoward behavior of the moderator who started the DBZ tournament issue.
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by Cheynem » Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:58 am

Why can the community not trust the moderation staff? The past events, as far as I can tell, is one overzealous locking (not FZ'ing) of a side event announcement.
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by theMoMA » Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:59 am

I am the chief administrator, and I have said that "if there is discussion of anime that is not meme-like and somehow related to quizbowl (i.e. criticizing a trash question), I don't have a problem with it."

The text of the rule states "Humor in posts that does not violate other rules is allowed/encouraged. Parody posts, threads that are only about non-quizbowl humor topics, and the like should be restricted to the Off Topic forum. Tired Internet memes of any kind, anything originating at 4 chan, and anything containing or originating from anime, are prohibited at all times. What constitutes anything in the previous sentence is at the sole discretion of the staff."

I interpret that to mean that free-range anime discussion (along with internet memes and 4 chan fodder) are empirically counterproductive to the board's purposes. I understand that we have conflicting standards when it comes to "those three things" and "everything else," but board rules are not intended to be reflections of a detached, strictly logical philosophy. They're responses to actual real-world things that we judge to get in the way of this board's purpose: discussion of quizbowl. If other topics (My Little Pony, The Rolling Stones, Starcraft, or anything else) eventually undermine productive discussion here, we'll deal with those problems as they arise.
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by theMoMA » Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:01 am

fett0001 wrote:I have not seen or heard of any untoward behavior from anime fans on this board, aside from the response to the untoward behavior of the moderator who started the DBZ tournament issue.
The abortive "Raynell Revolution" definitely happened. In any event, I encourage you to look at the rest of the internet for examples of discussion boards where anime is an inescapable fact of nearly every post. This board is not like that, and this board has a rule prohibiting free-range anime discussion. I do not think those things are unrelated.
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by Auroni » Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:02 am

Mike Cheyne is the one who mods.
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by fett0001 » Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:05 am

How do internet memes/anime/etc. in the off topic forum harm the discussion of quizbowl?

Calling things out like that makes this board look cliquish.


And the Raynell Revolution did occur. I'm not denying that Raynell overreacted. To the board staff's misapplication of this rule.
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by Auks Ran Ova » Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:37 am

fett0001 wrote:How do internet memes/anime/etc. in the off topic forum harm the discussion of quizbowl?

Calling things out like that makes this board look cliquish.
In what world is it more "cliquish" to enforce a standard banning weird internet-culture in-jokes? Anyone wishing to post reaction gifs or discuss Naruto or whatever has literally the entire rest of the internet in which they are free and welcome to do just that. Especially "internetty" stuff is banned because doing so is a strong reminder that this is not a standard internet forum in anything other than form--it is, expressly, the quizbowl discussion forum, and as such is a mirror of a real-life activity, not a place to just screw around on the internet. It's the same reason we mandate names and affiliations in signatures.
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by pajaro bobo » Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:46 am

theMoMA wrote:They're responses to actual real-world things that we judge to get in the way of this board's purpose: discussion of quizbowl.
So were the "actual real-world things" in question just the DBZ side tournament stuff and Raynell Revolution or was there much more than those two? I never hear about anything else.
theMoMA wrote:In any event, I encourage you to look at the rest of the internet for examples of discussion boards where anime is an inescapable fact of nearly every post. This board is not like that, and this board has a rule prohibiting free-range anime discussion. I do not think those things are unrelated.
I find it extremely hard to believe that without the anime rule, these forums would have eventually become a place "where anime is an inescapable fact of nearly every post." It's a quizbowl forum, most people are here/should be here to talk about quizbowl, and I doubt most of us log on each day to talk about our favorite character/episode/moment from [Insert anime here].

Corralling anime fans in the off-topic section (or even just a specific thread) would be a simple solution. There would be no reason to go out into any other of the forum sections to talk about anime unless someone wanted to cause trouble, in which case they'd be swiftly banned just like everyone else who would want to cause trouble. Is there something wrong with this line of thinking, other than "It was a problem before, so it will be a problem now, deal with it"?

Also, if the solution is to just tell anime people, "Go somewhere else to discuss your anime stuff", why does the off-topic thread exist in the first place? Might as well close down the whole darn thing, because yeah, there are plenty of other, probably more appropriate places on the Internet to discuss "Your Favorite Television Episodes", "Greatest Video Games of All Time", "College Football '13-'14", etc.
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by Excelsior (smack) » Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:06 am

Shan wrote:So I think most people would be more open to discussion if proponents of repealing the anime rule could give some assurance that they won't disrupt the primary function of this forum - to promote good quiz bowl.
For the record, I think the anime rule is dumb and ought to be done away with, and at the same time have literally no desire to discuss anime on this forum (modulo its appearance in quizbowl questions).
theMoMA wrote:In any event, I encourage you to look at the rest of the internet for examples of discussion boards where anime is an inescapable fact of nearly every post.
I don't understand why you keep bringing this up. Yes, of course there are "discussion boards where anime is an inescapable fact of nearly every post", and they are called "anime discussion boards", and I'm sure you can identify many of them. There are also discussion boards where anime is not an inescapable fact of nearly every post (despite not being banned), and I, likewise, could identify many of them.
Exactly how long has there been a ban on anime discussion?
Seconding this question. I'm guessing the answer is "since forever", but I guess it can't hurt to check.

Also, can we just - for a moment - imagine that we're having this same discussion three years ago, prior to the DBZ tournament and the Raynell thing and all that? If you were asked to justify the anime rule back then, what would you say?
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by Auks Ran Ova » Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:08 am

Excelsior (smack) wrote:Also, can we just - for a moment - imagine that we're having this same discussion three years ago, prior to the DBZ tournament and the Raynell thing and all that? If you were asked to justify the anime rule back then, what would you say?
Ukonvasara wrote:Anyone wishing to post reaction gifs or discuss Naruto or whatever has literally the entire rest of the internet in which they are free and welcome to do just that. Especially "internetty" stuff is banned because doing so is a strong reminder that this is not a standard internet forum in anything other than form--it is, expressly, the quizbowl discussion forum, and as such is a mirror of a real-life activity, not a place to just screw around on the internet. It's the same reason we mandate names and affiliations in signatures.
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by Angry Babies in Love » Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:49 am

The spirit of the rule is rather sound. I understand that anime (and the other things mentioned in the same breath as anime in the original rule) can be sorta annoying and often overused. I think anime should be banned unless it's a) in a quizbowl context or b) in the off-topic section.

I feel like some members of the moderation staff agrees with that view of the situation and agree that the rule should be enforced following that rubric. I just think that the word of the rule should match that idea as opposed to a "banned everywhere" language that's used. I understand the enforcement of the rule is being done by real people who will let exceptions happen...but the people who will be making those exceptions can also just change the rule to make it less ambiguous. A new user reading the rules as they are now may be turned off or confused by the language as it currently worded, and I propose it should be loosened from "x, y, and z are banned everywhere, and subject to moderator discretion" or whatever the exact wording is to "x, y, and z are banned outside of the Off-Topic section and outside of the context of quizbowl."
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by theMoMA » Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:29 am

Also, if the solution is to just tell anime people, "Go somewhere else to discuss your anime stuff", why does the off-topic thread exist in the first place? Might as well close down the whole darn thing, because yeah, there are plenty of other, probably more appropriate places on the Internet to discuss "Your Favorite Television Episodes", "Greatest Video Games of All Time", "College Football '13-'14", etc.
I'm not sure you understand the purpose of the forums. We want to foster a sense of quizbowl community, not online community. So off-topic discussion is great when it brings us together to talk about common interests in a way geography would otherwise prevent. But when the topics are more likely than not to lead to the kind of internetty side effects that we want to avoid, we think they're better off discussed elsewhere.
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by Angry Babies in Love » Mon Oct 21, 2013 5:45 am

theMoMA wrote:
Also, if the solution is to just tell anime people, "Go somewhere else to discuss your anime stuff", why does the off-topic thread exist in the first place? Might as well close down the whole darn thing, because yeah, there are plenty of other, probably more appropriate places on the Internet to discuss "Your Favorite Television Episodes", "Greatest Video Games of All Time", "College Football '13-'14", etc.
I'm not sure you understand the purpose of the forums. We want to foster a sense of quizbowl community, not online community. So off-topic discussion is great when it brings us together to talk about common interests in a way geography would otherwise prevent. But when the topics are more likely than not to lead to the kind of internetty side effects that we want to avoid, we think they're better off discussed elsewhere.
So are you saying that anime is inherently a lesser common interest than college football? Unless an anime thread leaks, the sort of internetty stuff the average HSQB user wants to avoid can be avoided by not entering the thread. (I would also make the case that theoretically video games has as almost as high of a tendency to lend itself to "internetty stuff" as anime does.)

I think that anime fans and college football fans should be treated equally because there are quizbowl players who fall in either category who would like to bond with each other over that fact. An anime discussion can bring together anime quizbowlers from across the country and create a sense of quizbowl community the way the television episode thread apparently does.
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by AKKOLADE » Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:30 am

kroeajueluo wrote:
Grams's Go-Go Boots wrote:Why does no one consider the disadvantages that I, a Dartmouth student, face?
Either your reading comprehension is lacking or you didn't care enough to read before trying to snark, a remarkably common tendency among Quizbowlers trying to prove how clever they are. In extreme layman's terms, the argument is that smaller colleges often overlook subjects/topics that aren't really in academic fashion at the moment, but classes continue to pop up, which is representative of the fact there has been a lot of recent academic movement on the subject.
Actually, I do pretty well with the whole "reading comprehension" thing. I was criticizing the tail end of your post, which I read and then I comprehended. Specifically, I comprehended your post to passively-aggressively accuse the forum rules of racism, which is stupid because . I also comprehend it to pretty pathetically bemoan your status as an Ivy League student because you lack a class on I-O Psychology, which is also stupid because you attend an Ivy League school and have greater educational opportunities than 99% of the world.

But, of course, I'm certain that your tone and ad hominem attacks about my intelligence have nothing to do with the fact that I've spent my entire life in Appalachia.
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by theMoMA » Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:32 am

Transparent Pudding wrote:I think that anime fans and college football fans should be treated equally because there are quizbowl players who fall in either category who would like to bond with each other over that fact. An anime discussion can bring together anime quizbowlers from across the country and create a sense of quizbowl community the way the television episode thread apparently does.
Again, I think this is a misunderstanding of the purpose of the boards. Sure, there are quizbowlers who have an interest in anime. There are quizbowlers who have an interest in all sorts of things. The question isn't whether there are people who want to discuss something. It's whether the pro-community benefits of that discussion outweigh the negatives to the forum.
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by Angry Babies in Love » Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:02 am

theMoMA wrote:
Transparent Pudding wrote:I think that anime fans and college football fans should be treated equally because there are quizbowl players who fall in either category who would like to bond with each other over that fact. An anime discussion can bring together anime quizbowlers from across the country and create a sense of quizbowl community the way the television episode thread apparently does.
Again, I think this is a misunderstanding of the purpose of the boards. Sure, there are quizbowlers who have an interest in anime. There are quizbowlers who have an interest in all sorts of things. The question isn't whether there are people who want to discuss something. It's whether the pro-community benefits of that discussion outweigh the negatives to the forum.
I think I understand your view of the purpose of the board, what I don't understand is how the pitfalls of the evil anime rearing its head outweigh the benefits. None of the arguments against it I have seen, in my opinion, are warranting of anime getting special treatment. If fans of American cartoons can enjoy pro-community benefits, I don't really see why fans of Japanese cartoons can't.
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by Steak and Kidney Pie » Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:18 pm

http://hsqbanime.createaforum.com/

(I don't really want to participate in this argument but I was bored and made this) Feel free to use if you want.
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by Cheynem » Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:03 pm

I will try to frame the anime discussion in comparative terms.

Anime is a very specific type of pop culture; it is way more specific than "College football," "television," and "video games," all of which have various sub-genres and which can be enjoyed on countless different levels. Maybe not the first, but that's not really very popular on the boards here, judging by a thread with only 15 posts in it this year. Yeah, I know there are many kinds of anime as well, but it's still way more specific than "TV." You can discuss "TV" and "Video games" and various people can find common ground even if you don't like certain TV shows or video games. There aren't really any specific threads for specific shows (the one exception offhand I can think of is The Simpsons thread I started), so nobody is starting a thread to talk about Doctor Who or Starcraft or anything.

I'm a big fan of pro wrestling. I've made a few joke posts about wrestling (probably way too many), but I don't start threads to purely discuss it because I am aware it is a pretty niche type of entertainment. For a lot of people, pro wrestling is violent, stupid, misogynistic, and racist. Regardless if those sentiments are true, those are the perceptions and it is off-putting to discuss in depth in a public forum (which is why I limit it to a few joke posts here and there and not really discussion). It bothers people. It would be weird to newcomers, especially perhaps coaches or administrators. When I want to talk wrestling, I do it in the many other ways I can talk about wrestling (including with other quizbowlers). For a lot of people, anime is a super niche type of entertainment that conjures up negative images. Regardless if those sentiments are true, those are the perceptions and it can be pretty off-putting to discuss in depth in a public forum. It bothers people. It would be weird to newcomers. When the quizbowlers who like anime (including some very prominent folks like Dr. Eric Mukherjee, M.D.) want to talk about anime, they do it in the many other ways they can talk about anime (including with other quizbowlers).

The negatives of allowing the discussion of anime (in the same way allowing the discussion of various other things) outweigh the positives (which are...what? people who already like anime talking about it?).
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by fett0001 » Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:14 pm

So you're saying we should ban any discussion of pro-wrestling? Since it's offensive to certain people, it seems that when it appears on the board it could frighten people away.

Edit: Why are you allowed to make wrestling joke posts, and Eric not allowed to make anime joke posts?
Last edited by fett0001 on Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by Cheynem » Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:15 pm

Sure.

I'll stop making wrestling jokes.
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by fett0001 » Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:20 pm

Here's the thing:

I think that inviting more discussion and activity on the boards is a good thing.

I think that people who will be offended by the topics "Pro-Wrestling 2013" or "Anime 2013" won't click on them.

The thing is, I don't see the reason to single out anime vs anything else. The only example of misbehavior anyone has cited was in retaliation to a staffer's terrible decision.
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by Cheynem » Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:21 pm

Can you explain why you think "more" discussion and activity on the boards is a good thing?
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by fett0001 » Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:28 pm

I thought I did earlier, but I was exhausted so maybe it wasn't clear:

I think that if people are posting here on something they are interested and knowledgeable about[anime], they are more likely to feel accepted by the community. I contend that they are more likely to post their concerns, questions, and other quizbowl stuff here. Second, if they're here to post about [anime], they are more likely to see some tournament announcement or some theory post or someone discussing something else they enjoy, than if they weren't here at all.
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by Ringil » Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:43 pm

Ukonvasara wrote:it is, expressly, the quizbowl discussion forum, and as such is a mirror of a real-life activity, not a place to just screw around on the internet. It's the same reason we mandate names and affiliations in signatures.
Yes, this forum is meant to mirror real life in quizbowl. But, people in real life quizbowl talk about many things that may or may not include anime between rounds, before the tournament, etc. If that really was the ultimate goal, is there really a need to ban anime or the wrestling jokes of Mike Cheyne? Even though I know nothing about wrestling, I always find Mike's comparisons of teams to wrestlers to be amusing. Like others have said, if people really hate it, they can just avoid it, especially if it's been cordoned off to off topic.

I mean I don't understand why some people think that breaking this rule will practically result in the RAYNELL REVOLUTION 2.0, where anime is talked about 24/7 in every forum and every topic. I've been one many forums that have not banned anime, and basically have 0 anime discussion, or at most limited to a few topics in a very specific board. I also agree that we clearly don't want to have people who basically come here just to talk about anime, but is this really a serious threat? I don't imagine many people would talk about anime even if the rule was lifted. Sure, at the beginning, there might be a bit of a surge in anime posts in say the off-topic forums, but it seems much more likely that it'd fade away pretty quickly (see every other off-topic topic and the qb manga thread).

I'd propose a temporary lifting of the rule, say for a few months, after which we can reevaluate the impact of the rule upon the health of the board.
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by Sima Guang Hater » Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:54 pm

So I didn't really want to wade into this thread, but I see my name being dropped in here as an exemplar of one side of this discussion, so I feel like I'm kind of obligated to.

Newsflash: a lot of quizbowlers, high-level quizbowlers among them, like anime. Matts Bollinger and Jackson, myself, Auroni, Jerry on occasion, just to name a few that come to mind. We even talk about it among ourselves occasionally. I'm even willing to go as far as to say that I think the ban is largely the product of Matt Weiner's almost pathological hatred for anime fans and his reduction of anything Japanese and animated as involving the sexual assault of young girls by tentacle monsters. From this perspective, I think singling out anime as a ban-worthy topic is really uncalled for. Clearly not every anime fan in quizbowl is hell-bent on turning this board into a discussion of what happened in the last chapter of Bleach.

That being said, the pro-ban faction in this argument have one issue in their favor - namely, that we want to set a higher standard for this board than the average gif-filled awful internet forum. Let's face it, there are particular subsets of anime fandom that any sane and rational human would find thoroughly objectionable and terrible, and I think that the anti-anime rule sends a strong message to these people that this forum shouldn't be polluted in this fashion.

I would rather see the anime ban be replaced by a general rule against threadjacking, animated gifs, memes, and what-have-you. That would serve the same purpose without singling out anime fans in any way, and would reduce the instances of overreach like Kirk's post about his favorite TV episodes being unnecessarily edited and that DBZ tournament being thrown into the forbidden zone.
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by Cheynem » Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:55 pm

The DBZ Tournament wasn't FZ'ed; it was locked. Again, that was a mistake and will not happen again.

I mainly agree with Eric in that I'm okay with like allowing Kirk to mention some anime episodes in the "TV" thread. I don't think the forums will benefit from extensive Off Topic discussion of any specific niche pop culture topic, especially those that easily descend into fanboy/meme/what have you culture, such as Mad Men, Doctor Who, anime, wrestling, NASCAR, what have you (and we really don't have anything of that nature in the Off Topic forum either). I agree with Eric though that these are academic quizbowl forums and have a greater responsibility to be professional than other Internet sites.
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Re: Discuss the anime rule here

Post by Sima Guang Hater » Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:56 pm

theMoMA wrote:Again, I think this is a misunderstanding of the purpose of the boards. Sure, there are quizbowlers who have an interest in anime. There are quizbowlers who have an interest in all sorts of things. The question isn't whether there are people who want to discuss something. It's whether the pro-community benefits of that discussion outweigh the negatives to the forum.
I fail to see how a thread entitled "discuss your favorite anime episodes" or whatever is any more damaging than "discuss football here" or "video game lists ITT".
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