NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

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NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Captain Sinico » Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:29 pm

ANNOUNCEMENT

I’m very pleased to announce that the NAQT Illinois State Championship will take place on Saturday, February 22, 2014 on the campus of the University of Illinois in Urbana-Champaign. This event is jointly hosted by the University of Illinois Academic Buzzer Team and Champaign Centennial High School.

Since its inauguration five years ago, the NAQT Illinois State Championship has attracted a growing number of Illinois’ best teams. It’s not hard to see why. We have the privilege of awarding prestigious state titles, both an overall and Small School title, as well as reserved bids for both NAQT’s national championship, the HSNCT, and PACE’s national championship, the NSC. You can expect the highest level of competition, and commensurate moderation, facilities, and questions from this event. This event will also serve as the highest level of preparation for our other state and national championships.

With the more-than-able assistance of James Garcia, I am your Tournament Director. You can contact me by e-mail. Please check this thread for updates, including a list of registered teams. You can also post your questions about the event here; I’ll check this thread and try to reply daily.

QUALIFICATION

In order to play in the Illinois NAQT State Championship, your team must qualify by finishing in the top 25% at a varsity event (tournament, conference, or league;) or in the top 10% at an event with a restricted field (novice, junior varsity, and turnabout tournaments are examples of events with restricted fields.) If all of the qualified teams from your event event were NAQT Large School, the highest-finishing Small School team that finished in the top 50% also qualifies. You may register as many teams as you have distinctly qualified teams - two teams are distinct if they share no players. If you have questions about qualification, are unsure if you quality, or wish to apply for an exception to register as a wild card, please contact me right away!

The IHSSBCA are doing the service of verifying and contacting qualified teams, for which I thank them. If you qualify, including if you have received notification from the IHSSBCA, you may proceed to register by clicking here.

TOURNAMENT RULES & FORMAT

The format of the NAQT Illinois State Championship will depend on the field size, so I will announce it nearer the event. I prefer a bracketed round robin with re-bracketed playoffs, if field size allows. If at all possible, meaningful record ties will be played off rather than broken statistically.

This tournament will be played under NAQT rules, with two possible modifications. First, NAQT rules call for timed halves, but I am strongly considering adapting using 10-tossups halves instead. Second, NAQT questions contain some amount of computational math, which I am considering striking. I am soliciting opinions so, if you are a registered team and have a view about these decisions, please contact me. I will announce a decision regarding these options along with the tournament format.

LOCATION & TRAVEL

The NAQT Illinois State Championship will take place at David Kinley Hall at the University of Illinois. Free weekend parking is available nearby in Lot E3. If you have any travel questions, including requests for directions to the tournament via public transit, please contact me.

DISCOUNTS & FEES

The registration fee for the NAQT Illinois State Championship is $65 for the first team and $55 for each subsequent team. A $5 discount is available for each working buzzer system. A $10 discount is available for each qualified reader who is able to read for the whole tournament. Obviously, our tournament can’t happen without working buzzer systems or able staff, so please bring as many as you can!

Checks for registration fees should be made out to Centennial Scholastic Bowl. If you wish to pay in advance, remit to 913 S. Crescent Dr. / Champaign, IL 61821. Otherwise, payment is due at the start of the tournament. You can print an invoice via this link.

CALL FOR STAFF

The NAQT Illinois State Championship can’t happen without staff! Fortunately, we live in a state with a very supportive and able corps of tournament staffers. If you are one, please register to help this tournament. Staffers will receive monetary compensation and food. I may also be able to assist with travel! If you have any questions, please contact me.

SUMMARY & ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS

NAQT Illinois State Championship 2/22 at David Kinley Hall. Register your team(s) here. Register to staff here. Post questions, or e-mail me.

Thanks to Donald Taylor and my co-TD James Garcia for proving much of this write-up and creating necessary forms. Thanks the IHSSBCA, especially Jonah Greenthal, David Reinstein, and Michael Wong. Thanks to Billy Busse the the ABT for getting us space. More to follow!

EDIT: E-mail address was misspelled (oops!)

EDIT 2: Link to invoice was broken.

EDIT 3: F/S event are not qualifiers. Fixed that.
Last edited by Captain Sinico on Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Mike Wong » Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:05 pm

Teams that are listed in this Google Doc have qualified and may register immediately. If you believe you have qualified but are not yet listed, please contact me to sort things out. I will be sending out qualification emails starting tomorrow.
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by jonah » Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:03 pm

I am not associated with any team, and I am not speaking as an NAQT member, but I feel strongly that this tournament should use computation bonuses but not computation tossups, and should have timed matches, the better to emulate and prepare teams for the HSNCT. 10-minute halves would be better than untimed games (but 9-minute halves would be better still).
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Captain Sinico » Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:50 am

My e-mail address was misspelled in the original version of my post. I've just corrected it, but if you e-mailed me earlier today and your e-mail bounced, I apologize and please try again! The correct address is soricemi@champaignschools.org.

M
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Dominator » Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:05 am

jonah wrote:...I feel strongly that this tournament should use computation bonuses but not computation tossups, and should have timed matches, the better to emulate and prepare teams for the HSNCT. 10-minute halves would be better than untimed games (but 9-minute halves would be better still).
Seconding everything Jonah said; let's prepare for HSNCT.

Most Saturday tournaments don't have enough moderating power to run timed quizbowl, but having UIUC as host should make this tournament an exception, so let's take advantage of it.
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by remake20 » Wed Jan 15, 2014 1:49 pm

I would also prefer the timed matches for the reasons already listed, especially coming from a team who is hoping to attend the SSNCT and has never played under official NAQT rules.
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by garciaja » Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:37 pm

Field as of 2/19/14 (40) - the more or less "final" version of the field
Auburn A
Auburn B
Auburn C
Bloomington A
Bloomington B
Carbondale
Centennial
Fenton
Glenwood
Greenville
IMSA A
IMSA B
Kaneland
Keith
Latin
Litchfield
Loyola
Metea Valley
Mt. Vernon A
Mt. Vernon B
Naperville North A
Naperville North B
OPRF
Palatine
Riverdale
Riverside Brookfield
Riverton
Rolling Meadows
St. Ignatius A
St. Ignatius B
St. Viator
Southwestern A
Southwestern B
Springfield
Stevenson
Streator
University of Illinois Laboratory
Wheaton North A
Wheaton North B
Williamsville
Last edited by garciaja on Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:47 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Captain Sinico » Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:13 pm

Hi everyone,

I'm glad to see that registration is humming along. I have a piece of good news and the answers to some common questions.

First, the good news. We're now Platinum certified according to PACE, meaning that the top quarter of the field qualifies for PACE NSC. That's on top of the HSNCT qualifications we were already offering.

Now, some questions I've been asked at least once:

1. When will the tournament start/end?
We're hoping to start about the usual time, with play starting around 8:30 if possible. We'll probably go a little later than a normal event, but I suppose we'll be finished by 6 or so.

2. Whom do I make a check out to?
Several people missed this in the original post, so here it is again: Checks for registration fees should be made out to Centennial Scholastic Bowl. If you wish to pay in advance, remit to 913 S. Crescent Dr. / Champaign, IL 61821. Otherwise, payment is due at the start of the tournament.

3. Where should I seek hotel rooms?
There are often events in Champaign that fill hotel capacity. I gather that this weekend is possibly such a time - there's a wrestling tournament in town, among other things.
My best advice would be to look in nearby towns, like Rantoul or Tuscola, which are convenient to Champaign. You may also find that some rooms come free closer to the event as other reservation holders cancel.

4. Is there a field cap? What is it?
We basically have a whole university building, so we have enough rooms for a field of 40. I expect we'll be able to attract commensurate staff and I don't anticipate we'll get to it, but 40 is our hard cap.

I'm still soliciting opinions about timing and computation. A decision about those will be forthcoming in a week or so.

See you in February,
M
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Dominator » Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:03 pm

Captain Sinico wrote: We're hoping to start about the usual time, with play starting around 8:30 if possible. We'll probably go a little later than a normal event, but I suppose we'll be finished by 6 or so.
Is there any way that this can be moved later? I imagine IMSA is not alone in having to drive several hours the morning of to compete (especially with nearby hotels booked up). Ideally, the tourney would be able to start no earlier than 10, but seeing as how that is not practical, 9 is better and is basically the norm at this point. Even with a championship-type structure, if rounds are timed, we can still be out in time for dinner.
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Captain Sinico » Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:37 pm

Dominator wrote:Is there any way that this can be moved later?
I'm open to starting at 9 if people would rather start - and end - later. Is that the case for other teams?

M
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Captain Sinico » Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:39 pm

Please don't forget to register to staff by filling out our staff registration form! Regrettably, I can't read all these exciting rounds for excellent teams myself.

M
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:02 am

I believe I'm driving down Friday night, but my team isn't, and I'm sure they'd appreciate leaving school at 5:45 instead of 5:15.
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Coach G » Thu Jan 23, 2014 9:32 pm

We (Auburn) are driving down on Saturday morning, so would definitely appreciate a later start. How about 9:30? With experienced moderators and timed rounds, things should move quickly.
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by legendrechem » Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:24 pm

Latin will also be driving down in the morning and would prefer a later than 8:30 if possible.
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Captain Sinico » Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:42 pm

We're less than 2 weeks away, so it's time for an update. Registered contacts will get an e-mail with this same information shortly.

First, let me announce that we have an increasingly pressing need for a few more staffers. If you can staff or know someone who can, please contact me right away! We'll compensate staffers and we'll even help transport them if we can.
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Captain Sinico » Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:42 pm

Second, let's finalize the rules. Reflecting a unanimous consensus, we're going to use full official NAQT rules, including timing (9 minute halves,) negs, and all other rules. Please acquaint yourself with the brief rules or even pore over the full rules to give yourself the best shot to win. Opinion was divided on computation, so I'm going to make the call that we'll remove any computation tossups and otherwise use the rounds as shipped. In the end, I find most cogent the argument is that this tournament's duty is to prepare teams as well as possible for HSNCT, which will have more or less the same distribution as the packets thus edited. I hope that decision doesn't torpedo anyone's experience, as there was strong, well-reasoned opinion on both sides of the issue.

EDIT: Incorrect post had incorrect information about calculation tossups at HSNCT.
EDIT 2: Less of "more of less" after typo corrected.
Last edited by Captain Sinico on Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Captain Sinico » Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:43 pm

Third, let me announce the current field:
QUALIFIED (29 TEAMS):
Auburn (Rockford) - 2 teams
Bloomington
Centennial (Champaign)
Elk Grove
Fenton
Glenwood (Chatham)
Greenville
Illinois Mathematics and Science (Aurora) - 2 teams
Kaneland (Maple Park)
Keith Country Day (Rockford)
Latin (Chicago)
Litchfield
Loyola (Wilmette)
Mt. Vernon
Oak Park and River Forest
Palatine
Riverdale (Port Byron)
Riverside Brookfield
Riverton
Rolling Meadows
St. Ignatius (Chicago)
Southwestern (Piasa)
Springfield
Stevenson (Lincolnshire)
University Laboratory (Urbana)
Wheaton North - 2 teams

WILD CARD (2 TEAMS):
Auburn (Rockford) - 3rd team
Bloomington - 2nd team

In light of staffing levels, I'm going to cap our field at 32, which leaves us room for another 1-3 teams. Ideally, I'd like to get 32 teams, but 30's okay, too. 31 and 29 aren't so good, being twin primes. Requests will be filled first come, first served so, if you've got a qualified team or a wildcard entrant, sign them up right away!

Pursuant to that and pending final approval from the IHSSBCA, I'm going to allow wild card teams into the field provisionally on the following basis. If we get 0 or 2 more qualified registrations before next Saturday, I'll allow in 1 wildcard team (or 3 if we get another wildcard registration but no more qualifiers.) If we get 1 more registration, I'll allow in 2 wildcard teams. If we get 2 more qualified registrations, 1 wildcard gets in. If we get 3 qualifiers, then 0 wildcards get in. By dint of registration date and team number, priority for wildcard admissions is as follows:
1. Bloomington B
2. Auburn C
3. Future entrant
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Captain Sinico » Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:02 pm

To end this update, let me announce timing. A high level of unanimous opinion existed for a later start time. I'm not going to argue with that, so we'll start rounds at 9:30 A.M., sharp. A brief team meeting will commence at 9 A.M. in Room 114 David Kinley Hall.

Since we're using timed rounds in only 16 rooms, I'm hopeful that we can still hit our 6 P.M. end time, but it is possible that championship teams will get out somewhat later than that, especially with a 30-team schedule. This being a state title and everything, I hope that's okay with everyone.

NEXT WEEK: Final field, schedule.
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by garciaja » Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:35 am

Not to detract from Sorice's announcements, but are there any predictions as to who is taking home this trophy?
Image

I predict Bloomington A over Centennial by 5 after we neg on the final tossup on something obvious like Bizet.
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Captain Sinico » Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:05 pm

Well, it would seem that I underestimated late interest! The field is now closed with 32 qualified teams as of last night. I'll contact new registrants regarding their status shortly and then post the full field and standby list.

If you still want to register, please do and I'll add you on a standby basis so you can claim spots if teams drop out or if the field expands. I might expand the field if we can get more staff, so nothing's necessarily final until Saturday.

M

PS: That's a shiny trophy!
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Dominator » Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:14 pm

That trophy is quite nice. If I'd have known that's what we're playing for, I would have practiced and encouraged my team to learn things this year.

I'm not sure why the trend in Illinois trophies this year has been for the ostentatious (Maine South Kickoffs and Loyola Ultima come to mind), but I love it.
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Captain Sinico » Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:37 pm

Hi everyone,
Here's a quick update with just a week to go. Let's start with good news. I'm happy to announce that through the efforts of many, especially Jonah Greenthal and my co-TD James Garcia, we've been able to obtain staff sufficient to run 18 rooms, allowing our field to expand to 36. Therefore, we can take just about everybody who wants to play.

Here's our very strong final field of 36 teams:
Auburn (Rockford) - 2 teams
Bloomington - 2 teams
Centennial (Champaign)
Elk Grove
Fenton
Glenwood (Chatham)
Greenville
Illinois Mathematics and Science (Aurora) - 2 teams
Kaneland (Maple Park)
Keith Country Day (Rockford)
Latin (Chicago)
Litchfield
Loyola (Wilmette)
Metea Valley
Mt. Vernon
Naperville North - 2 teams
Oak Park and River Forest
Palatine
Prairie Central
Riverdale (Port Byron)
Riverside Brookfield
Riverton
Rolling Meadows
St. Ignatius (Chicago)
St. Viator (Arlington Heights)
Southwestern (Piasa)
Springfield
Stevenson (Lincolnshire)
University Laboratory (Urbana)
Wheaton North - 2 teams
Williamsville.
Unfortunately, we do have to place on standby status one wildcard team, Auburn C. I do wish there were a way to fit you guys in the field, but we're at our field cap. I encourage you to attend if you can; if we lose a team, you're obviously first in line for that spot. If anyone else wants to attend on a standby basis, please let me know right away and I'll be glad to add you to the list.

Since the field was only finalized as of yesterday, I haven't made a full schedule yet. I'll get that posted in the coming days. However, I do have a three-phase format that I think works for this field. It's as follows:
Phase 1. Teams are seeded and placed into initial brackets of 6 snake-style, i.e. such that the first bracket contains seeds 1, 12, 13, 24, 25 & 36; the second bracket contains seeds 2, 11, 14, 23, 26 & 35; etc. Each bracket plays a round-robin. Record ties affecting which tier a team winds up in for phase 2 are played off.
Phase 2. Teams are re-seeded into 3 tiers of 2 brackets each. The top 2 teams based on record from each bracket go into the top tier, teams 3-4 go into tier 2, and teams 5-6 into tier 3. Once placed in a tier, teams are re-seeded by finish in phase 1, then PPB in phase 1, into 2 brackets of 6, again snake-style. Each of these brackets plays a round robin.
Phase 3. Teams are ranked by record in their phase 2 bracket, with record ties broken by tournament PPB (except in the case of ties for a bracket lead in tier 1.) Most teams play a crossover game against the team with their same rank in the other bracket of their tier for final standing. In tier 1, record ties for first place in each bracket are played off. The winners of each tier 1 bracket play each other in either a single-game final if their phase 2 records are the same, or a best-of-3 advantaged with the advantage going to the team with the better record if not. Phase 2 records will not include any tiebreakers.

Finally, let me remind everyone that staff will meet at 8:30 in a room TBA, and teams will meet at 9 A.M. in Room 114, David Kinley Hall. Games will commence at 9:30. Please post here or e-mail me with any questions and I'll see you in a week in Urbana!

EDIT: Incorrect format potentially needed more packets than exist (hence Brad Fischer's very salient reply - thanks, Brad!) Edited to represent current proposed format so as to avoid confusion for readers.
Last edited by Captain Sinico on Sun Feb 16, 2014 2:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:50 pm

We have 17 packets??
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Captain Sinico » Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:00 pm

Well, that's an excellent argument against a format if I ever saw one! Back to the old drawing board, then.

Let's amend phase 3 as follows. The top 4 teams (with eliminative ties played off on half packets) play cross-bracket against the team a position lower or higher, so the 1 from each Tier 1 bracket plays the 2 from the other. After that, we have an NAQT-style final if necessary, with full play-in games if necessary. That uses the 15 packets we're likely to have (rather than the 18 I thought we had because I think we're ICT or something.) That also reduces the max number of games to 15, and so the latest departure time to more like 6 P.M. That sounds better, right?
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by jonah » Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:10 pm

Captain Sinico wrote:Well, that's an excellent argument against a format if I ever saw one! Back to the old drawing board, then.

Let's amend phase 3 as follows. The top 4 teams (with eliminative ties played off on half packets) play cross-bracket against the team a position lower or higher, so the 1 from each Tier 1 bracket plays the 2 from the other. After that, we have an NAQT-style final if necessary, with full play-in games if necessary. That uses the 15 packets we're likely to have (rather than the 18 I thought we had because I think we're ICT or something.) That also reduces the max number of games to 15, and so the latest departure time to more like 6 P.M. That sounds better, right?
Like all (non-Introductory) Invitational Series since 2011–12, this set will have 14 packets, not 15.
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Captain Sinico » Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:42 pm

Does my incompetence at counting know no bounds?!

Okay, so let's see, then. Options seem to be (in order from most bad to least bad):
1. Tear up format and start all over. I like this format right up until I run out of packets at the end there, so I'd prefer not to, though I'm open to suggestions.
2. Break eliminative ties statistically, freeing up another round. Would prefer not to.
3. Play a crossover game at all positions. Declare winner between 1's as winner, using 1/3 available rounds. Has numerous disadvantages.
4. Do single elimination among the top 4 after phase 2 using 2/3 available rounds. Contains single elimination, so preferably not, but maybe that's the least bad option.

I guess for lack of the vision of better possibilities, I'm inclined to opt for 4. What do you guys think?
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by jonah » Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:48 pm

Captain Sinico wrote:Does my incompetence at counting know no bounds?!

Okay, so let's see, then. Options seem to be (in order from most bad to least bad):
1. Tear up format and start all over. I like this format right up until I run out of packets at the end there, so I'd prefer not to, though I'm open to suggestions.
2. Break eliminative ties statistically, freeing up another round. Would prefer not to.
3. Play a crossover game at all positions. Declare winner between 1's as winner, using 1/3 available rounds. Has numerous disadvantages.
4. Do single elimination among the top 4 after phase 2 using 2/3 available rounds. Contains single elimination, so preferably not, but maybe that's the least bad option.

I guess for lack of the vision of better possibilities, I'm inclined to opt for 4. What do you guys think?
Can we do anything better if we start with 9 pools of 4? We'd have to let first- and second-place teams advance, which may not get us anywhere (are there good 18-team formats with 10 packets?), but it's something to chew on.
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by dezmoines » Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:56 pm

I may not know a whole lot, but could head to head records be used to break tiebreakers? i know that it may create problems for the unlikely event that 3+teams tie but it could be a start for finding out how to solve the tiebreaker issue.

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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Captain Sinico » Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:59 pm

Yeah, I'd looked at 9-brackets-of-4 formats, but I don't see any way they work out any better; they require the same number of games for round robins, and they have the disadvantage of being much more sensitive to initial seeding.

Another option would be to do 4 brackets of 9 for phase 1 (8 rounds + tiebreakers), followed by power matched games among the top 8 and some kind of consolation among others as phase 2 (3 rounds - no ties possible.) That'd require 12 rounds for the first two phases, meaning that there's not enough to do a final, so the power matching was effectively stealth single elimination among the top 8. I think the 6x6 results are better.

Another option would be a 4x9 phase 1, but have records carry over into the power matching for phase 2 - like the above, except teams have already played their first game. That's 11 rounds for the first two phases, but still not enough for a final without eliminating one of the 2-1 (phase 2) teams statistically, which means that a team's potentially done on a single initial-bracket loss, or break ties with a half packet. That's possible, but I still like the 6x6 formats better.

Also, any 4x9 format likely leads to a lot of unequal games.

A power-matched phase 1 could seemingly be a way to go. For 36 teams, it's advantageous only if we use 4 rounds - 5 and we might as well use 6x6, especially since power matching is practically guaranteed to result in record ties that need to be broken. But if we use 4 rounds, we could then populate tier 1 with the 2 or 3 undefeated teams, and then some fraction of the 7-10 3-1 teams, as determined by a tiebreaker, for which we can use a round and still come out ahead. If we want to take 12 for a 6x6 phase 2, that's done with 4.5 rounds... except that we're pretty much guaranteed to have less than 12 3-1+ teams. In that case, we'd have to break a tie among the ~13 2-2 teams, which is intractable. So, either we hope the format works out fortuitously, or break an eliminative tie statistically. Now, it is an eliminative tie among teams that have already lost twice, so that may be more palatable, but to me that still loses to the 6x6 formats.

As far as I can see, that about exhausts the possibilities. I'm still open to suggestions, though.

M
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by dezmoines » Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:08 am

Captain Sinico wrote:Yeah, I'd looked at 9-brackets-of-4 formats, but I don't see any way they work out any better; they require the same number of games for round robins, and they have the disadvantage of being much more sensitive to initial seeding.

Another option would be to do 4 brackets of 9 for phase 1 (8 rounds + tiebreakers), followed by power matched games among the top 8 and some kind of consolation among others as phase 2 (3 rounds - no ties possible.) That'd require 12 rounds for the first two phases, meaning that there's not enough to do a final, so the power matching was effectively stealth single elimination among the top 8. I think the 6x6 results are better.

Another option would be a 4x9 phase 1, but have records carry over into the power matching for phase 2 - like the above, except teams have already played their first game. That's 11 rounds for the first two phases, but still not enough for a final without eliminating one of the 2-1 (phase 2) teams statistically, which means that a team's potentially done on a single initial-bracket loss, or break ties with a half packet. That's possible, but I still like the 6x6 formats better.

Also, any 4x9 format likely leads to a lot of unequal games.

A power-matched phase 1 could seemingly be a way to go. For 36 teams, it's advantageous only if we use 4 rounds - 5 and we might as well use 6x6, especially since power matching is practically guaranteed to result in record ties that need to be broken. But if we use 4 rounds, we could then populate tier 1 with the 2 or 3 undefeated teams, and then some fraction of the 7-10 3-1 teams, as determined by a tiebreaker, for which we can use a round and still come out ahead. If we want to take 12 for a 6x6 phase 2, that's done with 4.5 rounds... except that we're pretty much guaranteed to have less than 12 3-1+ teams. In that case, we'd have to break a tie among the ~13 2-2 teams, which is intractable. So, either we hope the format works out fortuitously, or break an eliminative tie statistically. Now, it is an eliminative tie among teams that have already lost twice, so that may be more palatable, but to me that still loses to the 6x6 formats.

As far as I can see, that about exhausts the possibilities. I'm still open to suggestions, though.

M
For breaking ties that would effect tier placement, while keeping with the original model, head to head records could be used. If a tie involves more than two teams, statistics could be used to determine which two teams are considered using the head to head method. Sorry if there is a flaw I'm not seeing with this. I'm new and just trying to throw out ideas that someone with more experience could refine

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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Captain Sinico » Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:23 am

I appreciate your suggestion. Head-to-head falls under what I mean by statistical tiebreakers. Actually, it's not a very good statistical tiebreaker in the sense that it's not very predictive of future results compared to, say, PPG or PPB (there's a thread somewhere with the data on that from long ago.) It's true that it could be used to break ties, but I'd much prefer a format that breaks ties with play.

M
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Ben Dillon » Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:38 am

I realize I don't have a dog in this fight, but here's my thought.

#1. Divide into two divisions of 18
#2. Each division runs 3 x 6 (5 games)
#3. Each division rebrackets into another 3 x 6 (4 games + 1 carryover result from #2)
#4. Combine the divisions and rebracket into 6 x 6 (2 games + 3 carryover results from #3)
#5. (Advantaged) final between top two teams (1 or 2 games)

By my count, this leaves one packet for tie-breaking purposes. Of course, I could be on crack because I'm not sure how exactly the results from #4 to #5 could be messed up.

Edit: Yup, I also miscounted #4, which should be 3 games + 2 carryover results from #3. Sigh.
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by AKKOLADE » Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:00 am

UK Spring had a 36 team field last year. We ran 6x6 -> 6x6, with crossover bracketing for the top twelve. Why not do that?
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by dtaylor4 » Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:04 am

Suggestion (via Joe Nutter/Rob Carson):

6x6 (5) + TB (1) + 6x6 parallel (5) + TB (1) + finals (1) is 13 packets. Seed for the parallel based on PPB.

It shouldn't be too much of a delay, and keep in mind who's doing stats.

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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Captain Sinico » Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:08 am

Okay, here's a thought inspired by that. Do RR's in snake-seeded 6x6. Rebracket into 3-tiered 6x6, but keep the teams from the initial bracket together; RR in each bracket skipping repeat game. Determine final standings using common-opponent games. That takes 5-5.5 rounds to do phase 1+tiebreakers, 4-4.5 to do phase 2+tiebreakers, so 10 rounds used max, leaving at least 4 to do an NAQT-style finals among top-tier teams by record in tier. Any team that is not in the final and whose cross-bracket counterpart is not in the final plays a cross-bracket game. 10 games guaranteed. Home for... late dinner.

That, I believe, covers every scenario, except for:
1. the unfair results possible under NAQT-style finals, like a team with a worse record potentially winning,
2. the possibility of ties that can't be broken with 1 result, like a 3-way tie for 2nd in an initial bracket,
3. packets getting burned by errors.
2 is the most serious to me, but it seems like any format with these numbers is going to wind up with it. 1 and 3 are inevitable.

This scheme has two disadvantages. First, it probably results in less balanced phase 2 brackets - especially if initial seeds aren't good - but I think it beats the alternatives. Second, records across brackets within a tier will share no common opponents, so they'll be difficult to compare. If 1 bracket has a 5-0 team and a 4-1 team, while the other's best team is 3-2, what is to be done in that case? That can partly be healed by having every team play a cross-bracket game, then do an NAQT-style final. That saves half a packet since it wouldn't be necessary to break phase 2 record ties, but it leave only 3 packets for what could take 4 rounds, which might necessitate half-round play-ins. That seems workable, though.

M

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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Captain Sinico » Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:09 am

dtaylor4 wrote:Suggestion (via Joe Nutter/Rob Carson):

6x6 (5) + TB (1) + 6x6 parallel (5) + TB (1) + finals (1) is 13 packets. Seed for the parallel based on PPB.
I guess I'm getting old, but what's parallel? That looks good if it's fair.

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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by dtaylor4 » Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:11 am

Captain Sinico wrote:
dtaylor4 wrote:Suggestion (via Joe Nutter/Rob Carson):

6x6 (5) + TB (1) + 6x6 parallel (5) + TB (1) + finals (1) is 13 packets. Seed for the parallel based on PPB.
I guess I'm getting old, but what's parallel? That looks good if it's fair.

M
Two pools of 6x6, cross-over finals.

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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by jonah » Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:12 am

Captain Sinico wrote:1. the unfair results possible under NAQT-style finals, like a team with a worse record potentially winning,
Can we just abrogate NAQT-style finals and allow a team to clear the field?
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Captain Sinico » Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:13 am

jonah wrote:
Captain Sinico wrote:1. the unfair results possible under NAQT-style finals, like a team with a worse record potentially winning,
Can we just abrogate NAQT-style finals and allow a team to clear the field?
I think you know I'd love to do ACF-style finals instead. Is that going to fly?

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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by jonah » Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:14 am

dtaylor4 wrote:
Captain Sinico wrote:I guess I'm getting old, but what's parallel? That looks good if it's fair.
Two pools of 6x6, cross-over finals.
I would explain it as "When we break into six pools of 6 for the playoffs, instead of having one top pool containing the prelim pool winners, there are two top pools each of which contain half the pool winners and half the pool runners-up (snake-seeded)."
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Important Bird Area » Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:14 am

jonah wrote:
Captain Sinico wrote:1. the unfair results possible under NAQT-style finals, like a team with a worse record potentially winning,
Can we just abrogate NAQT-style finals and allow a team to clear the field?
Yes.
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by jonah » Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:16 am

Captain Sinico wrote:
jonah wrote:
Captain Sinico wrote:1. the unfair results possible under NAQT-style finals, like a team with a worse record potentially winning,
Can we just abrogate NAQT-style finals and allow a team to clear the field?
I think you know I'd love to do ACF-style finals instead. Is that going to fly?
Yes; there is no rule that NAQT-style finals must be used. The relevant documents are the policy on official events, elimination policy, and (sort of) tiebreaker policy.
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Captain Sinico » Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:16 am

jonah wrote:
dtaylor4 wrote:
Captain Sinico wrote:I guess I'm getting old, but what's parallel? That looks good if it's fair.
Two pools of 6x6, cross-over finals.
I would explain it as "When we break into six pools of 6 for the playoffs, instead of having one top pool containing the prelim pool winners, there are two top pools each of which contain half the pool winners and half the pool runners-up (snake-seeded)."
That's what I had initially (minus the 4-team round robin built on top!) So basically, that's nearing consensus. Anyone not like that?

M
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Captain Sinico » Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:16 am

jonah wrote:
Captain Sinico wrote:
jonah wrote:
Captain Sinico wrote:1. the unfair results possible under NAQT-style finals, like a team with a worse record potentially winning,
Can we just abrogate NAQT-style finals and allow a team to clear the field?
I think you know I'd love to do ACF-style finals instead. Is that going to fly?
Yes; there is no rule that NAQT-style finals must be used. The relevant documents are the policy on official events, elimination policy, and (sort of) tiebreaker policy.
Sure, I don't mean "Will NAQT send the rules police?" I mean, like, will teams be cool with that?

M
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by jonah » Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:18 am

Captain Sinico wrote:
jonah wrote:
Captain Sinico wrote:
jonah wrote:
Captain Sinico wrote:1. the unfair results possible under NAQT-style finals, like a team with a worse record potentially winning,
Can we just abrogate NAQT-style finals and allow a team to clear the field?
I think you know I'd love to do ACF-style finals instead. Is that going to fly?
Yes; there is no rule that NAQT-style finals must be used. The relevant documents are the policy on official events, elimination policy, and (sort of) tiebreaker policy.
Sure, I don't mean "Will NAQT send the rules police?" I mean, like, will teams be cool with that?
I'm not a team, but I think so. It's certainly the norm at circuit events. Do I understand correctly that your specific question is "Are teams okay with potentially not having a final?"?
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Captain Sinico » Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:22 am

Basically, yes, though 6x6 to 6x6 to final among top tier bracket winners results in a final either way, so maybe it's the best of all worlds.

M
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Captain Sinico » Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:39 am

Okay, current draft format:
Phase 1. Teams are seeded and placed into initial brackets of 6 snake-style, i.e. such that the first bracket contains seeds 1, 12, 13, 24, 25 & 36; the second bracket contains seeds 2, 11, 14, 23, 26 & 35; etc. Each bracket plays a round-robin. Record ties affecting which tier a team winds up in for phase 2 are played off.
Phase 2. Teams are re-seeded into 3 tiers of 2 brackets each. The top 2 teams based on record from each bracket go into the top tier, teams 3-4 go into tier 2, and teams 5-6 into tier 3. Once placed in a tier, teams are re-seeded by finish in phase 1, then PPB in phase 1, into 2 brackets of 6, again snake-style. Each of these brackets plays a round robin.
Phase 3. Teams are ranked by record in their phase 2 bracket, with record ties broken by tournament PPB (except in the case of ties for a bracket lead in tier 1.) Most teams play a crossover game against the team with their same rank in the other bracket of their tier for final standing. In tier 1, record ties for first place in each bracket are played off. The winners of each tier 1 bracket play each other in either a single-game final if their phase 2 records are the same, or a best-of-3 advantaged with the advantage going to the team with the better record if not. Phase 2 records will not include any tiebreakers.

Anyone not like that? I know the records across brackets aren't directly comparable, but I'd rather not use straight single elimination even for 1 game.
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by heterodyne » Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:41 pm

Is there any method you plan to use for seeding, and will seeds be released?
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Captain Sinico » Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:35 pm

What I'm planning to do is to poll several disinterested knowledgable parties and aggregate that with the coach's poll in Scholastic Visions. I wasn't planning to release seeds - do people want to see them?

M
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by heterodyne » Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:44 pm

Captain Sinico wrote:What I'm planning to do is to poll several disinterested knowledgable parties and aggregate that with the coach's poll in Scholastic Visions. I wasn't planning to release seeds - do people want to see them?

M
It's probably going to be fairly apparent from the bracketing, but I was just wondering if you planned to.
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