NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Captain Sinico »

Right - that was my thought. Most tournaments haven't released seeds in the past and if the seeds are halfway good, they won't be something you need to think about. In particular, the proposed format should be robust against an average seeding error of up to 3 positions. However, if there's no big drawback to releasing seeds (I don't see any obvious one) and people want them, I'd consider releasing them. What do you guys think?
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Dominator »

Captain Sinico wrote:Right - that was my though. Most tournaments haven't released seeds in the past and the seeds are halfway good, the seeding won't be something you need to think about. This format should be robust to an average seeding error of at least 3 positions. However, if there's no big drawback to releasing seeds (I don't see any obvious one) and people want it, I'd consider releasing it. What do you guys think?
I don't see that releasing seeds serves a positive function, but doing so does facilitate pointless sort of how-are-they-ranked-ahead-of-us-even-though-we-beat-them-that-time arguments. My opinion is that doing so opens the TD up to needless non-constructive criticism, so I am fine with them being left private. However, I wouldn't be opposed to them being released.

It's worth noting here that one can pretty much determine the seeds from the schedule anyway. We more or less know the seeds of the top teams within a position, and knowing that the rest of the scheduled was filled by snaking, you can put the pieces together. (If you care enough, which I encourage people not to.)
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Captain Sinico »

Here's version 2 of the final field:
Auburn (Rockford) - 3 teams
Bloomington - 2 teams
Centennial (Champaign)
Elk Grove
Fenton
Glenwood (Chatham)
Greenville
Illinois Mathematics and Science (Aurora) - 2 teams
Kaneland (Maple Park)
Keith Country Day (Rockford)
Latin (Chicago)
Litchfield
Loyola (Wilmette)
Metea Valley
Mt. Vernon
Naperville North - 2 teams
Oak Park and River Forest
Palatine
Riverdale (Port Byron)
Riverside Brookfield
Riverton
Rolling Meadows
St. Ignatius (Chicago)
St. Viator (Arlington Heights)
Southwestern (Piasa)
Springfield
Stevenson (Lincolnshire)
University Laboratory (Urbana)
Wheaton North - 2 teams
Williamsville

STANDBY:
Streator

Unfortunately, Prairie Central withdrew between the time they registered and when I was able to expand the field, but that does mean that Auburn C is in the field. That's it for now!
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by dtaylor4 »

Last year, Wong did significant legwork in gathering data regarding the teams, and he and I spent hours tweaking the brackets for balance and geographic diversity. I don't think I ever released the brackets, and do not recall public (or private) requests for them.

As Noah said, I personally think they can cause a ruckus, and provide no real benefit.
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by jonah »

Incidentally, this field contains six Small School teams (by NAQT's definition): Greenville, Litchfield, Riverdale, Riverton, Southwestern, and Williamsville.
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Captain Sinico »

Okay, a lot's happened today, so it merits an update. First, we've pulled out all the stops to expand again, to 40 teams. Here's what I hope is for real the final field:
Auburn (Rockford) - 3 teams
Bloomington - 2 teams
Carbondale
Centennial (Champaign)
Elk Grove
Fenton
Glenwood (Chatham)
Greenville
Illinois Mathematics and Science (Aurora) - 2 teams
Kaneland (Maple Park)
Keith Country Day (Rockford)
Latin (Chicago)
Litchfield
Loyola (Wilmette)
Metea Valley
Mt. Vernon - 2 teams
Naperville North - 2 teams
Oak Park and River Forest
Palatine
Riverdale (Port Byron)
Riverside Brookfield
Riverton
Rolling Meadows
St. Ignatius (Chicago) - 2 teams
St. Viator (Arlington Heights)
Southwestern (Piasa)
Springfield
Stevenson (Lincolnshire)
Streator
University Laboratory (Urbana)
Wheaton North - 2 teams
Williamsville

We've got every team that asked (and didn't withdraw) in, plus a few more! I am also informed that this ties the record for the largest NAQT state championship ever, in addition to being a quantum leap from the last few years. So good job, field. We're going to do our utmost to put on a great tournament for you.

The second topic is the format. Obviously, the previous 36-team format is out. Here's the current draft:
Phase 1: 3 rounds of seeded, record-matched games via card system. That will partition the field into 5 3-0 teams, 15 2-1 teams, 15 1-2 teams, and 5 0-3 teams. We'll tweak the seeding at the margin to avoid same-school matchups and maximize geographic novelty, but seeding will prevail in general.

Phase 2: Re-bracket into 2 tiers of 5 brackets of 4 teams (the cards will do this automatically.) Each tier-1 bracket will contain 1 3-0 team and 3 2-1 teams, seeded by final phase 1 card. Each tier-2 bracket will contain 3 1-2 teams and 1 0-3 team, seeded by final phase 1 card. Each of the 10 brackets will then play a full round-robin.

Phase 3: Re-bracket into 2 brackets of 6, and 7 brackets of 4. The top bracket is the 5 tier-1 bracket 1's, plus the best tier-1 2 (by record, then tournament PPB.) The second bracket is the other tier-1 2's, the two best tier-1 3's (by record, then tournament PPB.) The third bracket is the other tier-1 3's, plus the best 4. The fourth bracket is the other tier-1 4's. The fifth bracket is the 4 best tier-2 1's, etc. These brackets all play a full round robin. There are NAQT-style finals in the top bracket based on phase 3 record. All eliminative ties are played off, except possibly for the promotion of the wildcard at the start of phase 3, which will be played off if possible.

We're actively discussing a few variations, especially in phase 3. We might do 8 brackets of 5 with a full RR and a exhibition crossover game. We might do parallel brackets of 4 below the top 16. We might do a legit rebracket by PPB at the start of phase 2. Anyway, it's still under discussion, so if you have a take, do please share.

Everything else remains the same, so I think that's about enough for now. Look for the schedule in the coming couple days. I'll e-mail all coaches at that time.

See you Saturday!
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Dominator »

I actually like this format better than the last (36 team) one. I do not like parallel championship brackets because it ultimately boils down to one game between the presumed best two teams. If our regular Saturday tournaments offer advantaged finals, our state championship should not do less. If we have to do a crazy three-step format to guarantee some RR between the top teams at the end, then I say we do it. I'll also add that I like how this tournament format allows for fewer high seed vs. low seed matchups, which are enjoyable to neither side.
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Emil Nolde »

(guy who hasn't been following this thread)

Wow, such suspense, I was thinking for a moment we might have to adopt the (rather laissez-faire) "just show up" school of tournament attendance , especially with the use of "final".

Looking forward to good competition, friendly interaction, possible fabulous prizes, &c.
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by heterodyne »

Results:
1st IMSA A
2nd Stevenson A
3rd Bloomington A
4th Auburn A
5th Springfield A
6th Wheaton North A

I may have the last two flipped. All apologies if I do. Great play all around!
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Captain Sinico »

Those final standings are correct, after a thrilling final game and third place game. In addition, Litchfield is our Small School Champion. Stats and more wrap-up info shortly.

Congratulations to all teams on a great contest, and especially to our champions, IMSA A and Litchfield. Thanks very much for a fun and exciting tournament!
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by dtaylor4 »

With regards to stats, they were done 5-10 minutes after the final. Jonah is in the process of getting the raw SQBS due to my copy/paste error. Every single game is in, including the R7 tiebreakers.
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by jonah »

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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Urech hydantoin synthesis »

Looking at the stats, I noticed that there were a decent number of games that had less than 20 tossups heard, so I did some analysis, and got the following results:
(Note: this is only from the games on packets that all teams were guaranteed to play)
32% of the games had less than 20 tossups read, with three of them having 15 tossups read, five of them having 16 tossups read, and thirteen having 17 tossups read. A significant number of the games were between teams in the lower half of the field, and at least one nationals qualifier averaged less than 20 tossups heard per game. The likes of IMSA and Auburn never heard less than 22 or 23 tossups per game (though it's probably a coincidence since the #3 team heard less than 20 tossups in each game in the first 3 rounds).

Is it worth having 1/3 of the games hear less than 20 tossups so that some teams in the field can, in the words of Dr. Prince, prep for HSNCT? It seems to me that the #1 goal of a state championship is to produce a ranking of the best teams in the state, and any additional goals which might hinder that, including producing games with lower TUHs among the teams in the lower half of the field, that would be unnecessary. Of course, HSNCT also has games with a less-than-ideal number of tossups read, but shouldn't tournaments strive to eliminate them instead of letting them be emulated as an unfortunate side effect of timed rounds and HSNCT prep for the top teams?
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by garciaja »

Christ, I Know wrote:Looking at the stats, I noticed that there were a decent number of games that had less than 20 tossups heard, so I did some analysis, and got the following results:
(Note: this is only from the games on packets that all teams were guaranteed to play)
32% of the games had less than 20 tossups read, with three of them having 15 tossups read, five of them having 16 tossups read, and thirteen having 17 tossups read. A significant number of the games were between teams in the lower half of the field, and at least one nationals qualifier averaged less than 20 tossups heard per game. The likes of IMSA and Auburn never heard less than 22 or 23 tossups per game (though it's probably a coincidence since the #3 team heard less than 20 tossups in each game in the first 3 rounds).

Is it worth having 1/3 of the games hear less than 20 tossups so that some teams in the field can, in the words of Dr. Prince, prep for HSNCT? It seems to me that the #1 goal of a state championship is to produce a ranking of the best teams in the state, and any additional goals which might hinder that, including producing games with lower TUHs among the teams in the lower half of the field, that would be unnecessary. Of course, HSNCT also has games with a less-than-ideal number of tossups read, but shouldn't tournaments strive to eliminate them instead of letting them be emulated as an unfortunate side effect of timed rounds and HSNCT prep for the top teams?
In theory yes. All that you are saying in regards to prepping for HSNCT is correct. In defense of my staff, we had some slower rooms due to a few of the moderators (all of whom did a great job by the way) being less experienced than the ideal situation you are describing. When we can host this on a weekend that isn't the same as a major college tournament, we will have a more experienced staff and more questions will be heard. That being said, any state tournament will have less resources at its disposal than HSNCT, so it should be expected that some rooms will hear less than 20 tossups.
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Urech hydantoin synthesis »

garciaja wrote: In theory yes. All that you are saying in regards to prepping for HSNCT is correct. In defense of my staff, we had some slower rooms due to a few of the moderators (all of whom did a great job by the way) being less experienced than the ideal situation you are describing. When we can host this on a weekend that isn't the same as a major college tournament, we will have a more experienced staff and more questions will be heard. That being said, any state tournament will have less resources at its disposal than HSNCT, so it should be expected that some rooms will hear less than 20 tossups.
I was talking less about why this tournament had subpar TUH counts in some games, and more about if the decision to have timed rounds for HSNCT prep was worth the subpar TUH counts in some games, especially considering that not all moderators were available due to its conflict with a major college tournament. State tournaments will have less resources at their disposal, so the problem of some teams hearing less than 20 tossups can also be addressed by not having timed rounds. I recognize the fact that timed tournaments will never always have ideal tossup counts in all games, but depending on how far from ideal it strays, it might be better to leave rounds off the clock.
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Dominator »

Christ, I Know wrote:
garciaja wrote: In theory yes. All that you are saying in regards to prepping for HSNCT is correct. In defense of my staff, we had some slower rooms due to a few of the moderators (all of whom did a great job by the way) being less experienced than the ideal situation you are describing. When we can host this on a weekend that isn't the same as a major college tournament, we will have a more experienced staff and more questions will be heard. That being said, any state tournament will have less resources at its disposal than HSNCT, so it should be expected that some rooms will hear less than 20 tossups.
I was talking less about why this tournament had subpar TUH counts in some games, and more about if the decision to have timed rounds for HSNCT prep was worth the subpar TUH counts in some games, especially considering that not all moderators were available due to its conflict with a major college tournament. State tournaments will have less resources at their disposal, so the problem of some teams hearing less than 20 tossups can also be addressed by not having timed rounds. I recognize the fact that timed tournaments will never always have ideal tossup counts in all games, but depending on how far from ideal it strays, it might be better to leave rounds off the clock.
I think you are missing another aspect of what ideal means. Were the tournament to have used untimed rounds, it would not have been able to schedule a 14 round format that started late enough and ended early enough so as to allow teams to travel in from all over the state. Keeping the same format untimed would have forced some teams into an overnight trip, which would have been prohibitively expensive for some. Changing to a format with fewer rounds would certainly have raised its own set of questions about the validity of the results. Do you think that either of those are more desirable?
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by heterodyne »

Christ, I Know wrote:(though it's probably a coincidence since the #3 team heard less than 20 tossups in each game in the first 3 rounds).
Our lack of TUH in the first three rounds should not be taken as evidence for incompetence of readers. We were moving rather slowly.
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by the return of AHAN »

As one who has read at HSNCT, I've found I'm less likely to surpass the 20TU mark when the teams in the room are weaker, and require the clues after FTP. Surely a state championship would have a higher percentage of teams that fit that bill, right?
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Birds2013 »

As far as tossup rate is concerned, there are more reasons less TU's were heard in some rounds other than poor moderators (I really don't think we encountered one, maybe we just got lucky) and/or poor team production on the tossup. From my personal experience during the day, we had to melt the clock in order to pull off a few upsets. The most obvious examples of these are our matches against Latin and IMSA B. We had traded blows with Latin in the first half, but we were inching ahead in the last few questions. Realizing Latin was in hot pursuit, we began to melt the clock. The last TU and the following bonus prevented another TU from being read as we took the clock to zero. Nothing more than a kneel. IMSA B was the same way, we just had a larger lead in the end. Once again, it may have prevented us from hearing 2-3 tossups during the day, but with so many matches going on, I wouldn't be shocked if more teams had employed the same strategy and combined to make a relevant impact on TUH. Just my experience, anyways.
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by the return of AHAN »

I forgot about that strategy. I did, in fact, witness High Tech employ that very strategy when they played Bellarmine, prompting Sameer to murmur, "These guys understand how to play!"
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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by mfeltes »

Your point about the wide variation in the number of tossups heard is well taken, but James & Mike were thoughtful about assigning their staff strategically. I think the teams who were looking for high-level matches where the packets were fully exhausted or nearly so got that experience, especially after the first three rounds where the teams were sorted into tiers. I had not read in a timed format before and so, quite rightly, I was assigned to read for teams in the lower half of the field once the tiers were established. While I did my best to keep the pace high, I only averaged about 18 tossups per match. I'd say the strongest match I read all day was Southwestern-Latin, which Daniel mentioned earlier. I hope the teams didn't find my performance frustrating. I do remember Southwestern killing clock at the end of the match.

Later on in the day, I kept score for two matches read by Laird, which was a real eye-opener in terms of the pace that the best teams expect. All empty space and filler was cut away. It required considerable focus to keep up and score the match correctly. I will need a great deal of practice to be able to read in that fashion.

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Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by Captain Sinico »

On behalf of my co-TD James Garcia, Champaign Centennial Scholastic Bowl, and the University of Illinois Academic Buzzer Team, I want to thank everyone one last time who made the 2014 NAQT Illinois State Championship the event it was.

Congratulations to IMSA, NAQT State Champion for 2014! IMSA A (Waleed Ali, Siva Gangavarapu, Anton Karpovich, Daniel Pechi, Andrew Salij) avenged their only loss on the day in a thrilling 1-game final, pulling ahead of Stevenson (Jason Asher, Jeeho Lee, Braden McDowell, Justin Millman, Jonathan Mishory) on the very last question, from a deficit of 30.

Litchfield ( Kinder Guthrie, Logan Leitschuh, Andrew Thomas, Kyle Towner, David York) earned the Small School State Championship, ending up a very impressive 7th overall. Though they can draw on a student body of just 406, the Panthers came up only 10 points short of making the top 6, losing in the second leg of a play-in for a spot in the championship Bardeen bracket.

The cup for 3rd went to Bloomington A (Alston Boyd, Sam Doud, Sam Emmerson, Stae Schipper-Reyes,) who edged out Rockford Auburn A (Brody Hooker, Evan Pandya, Will Rupprecht, Cole Timmerwilke) in yet another nail-biter.

State All-Stars were:
1. Jackson Myers of Springfield with 113 points per 20 tossups heard (PP20TH,)
2. Greg Krzywicki of Fenton with 90 PP20TH,
3. Wyatt Beaty from Mt. Vernon A who had 77 PPTH,
4. Bloomington A's Alston Boyd with 74.8 PP20TH,
5. David York of Litchfield with 74.6 PP20TH,
6. Cole Timmerwilke of Rockford Auburn A with 67 PP20TH,
7. Evan Pandya of Rockford Auburn A with 65 PP20TH, and
8. Jason Asher of Stevenson and his 64 PP20TH.

You can find the full results and stats here.

I am happy to report that a number of teams qualified for national tournaments on the basis of their performance. IMSA A, Stevenson, Bloomington A, Rockford Auburn A, Springfield, and Wheaton North A are automatic qualifiers for NAQT's High School National Championship Tournament (HSNCT - May 30-June 1 in Rosemont - see http://www.naqt.com/hsnct/2014/details.html for more information.) However, these teams were all already qualified. Kaneland has earned a new bid to NAQT's HSNCT as the highest-finishing team not to have already qualified (and I must apologize to Coach Dentino for saying otherwise on Saturday as I'd made a clerical error hinging on the existence of two different schools named Auburn in the state!)

Litchfield earned a redundant spot at NAQT's Small School National Championship (SSNCT - May 2-4 in Minneapolis - see http://www.naqt.com/hs/ssnct/2014/details.html for more information.) Greenville has earned a new bid as the best non-qualified small school.

Finally, as we were Platinum Certified by PACE, our top 10 teams earned bids to the National Scholastics Championship (NSC - May 24-25 near Washington, DC - see http://www.pace-nsc.org/2014-nsc-washington-dc/ for details.) These were: IMSA A, Stevenson, Bloomington A, Rockford Auburn A, Springfield, Wheaton North A, Carbondale, Latin, Litchfield, and Rockford Auburn B.

Qualifiers will be reported to NAQT and PACE. I expect they will contact qualifying teams' coaches in the coming days. I highly recommend you to attend HSNCT and NSC if at all possible - they are the apex of high school quizbowl for the year.

Now, for some long-overdue dues-paying. I'd like to offer my sincerest thanks once again to our staffers, who really made this tournament possible. Your moderators were David Adkins, Bryan Berend, Elliot Campos, Tim Coughlan, Charlie Dees, Arun Doogar, Micahel Feltes, Brad Fischer, James Garcia, Jonah Greenthal, Niranjan Jayanth, Alec Krueger, Matt Laird, Mike Laudermith, Sharon Lorinskas, Zachary Moser, Chris Olsen, Greg Peterson, Seth Teitler, and Jay Winter. Score was ably kept by Farzad Alikozai, Tylar Anderson, Jared Bowman, Haley Brown, Jadan Defields, CJ Gibson, Brian Hitchins, Mlle. Ibrahim, Nina Hopkins, Meet Khatri, Elizabeth Letterly, Danielle Long, Michael Olmsted, Colin Ramage, Eric Savin, Kristen Strey, and Rob Tyne. Control staff were myself, Alison Tomchik, and Donald Taylor.

This tournament owes special thanks to: the University of Illinois and Illinois Academic Buzzer Team, our hosts; NAQT for a fine (and free!) question set; Southwestern, Mt. Vernon, St. Ignatius, and Riverside Brookfield, for gamely splitting their squads to keep our field at a workable number; Papa John's and Papa D's for catering staff lunch; Mike Wong, Sharon Lorinskas, and the IHSSBCA for handling qualification, including finding and contacting pretty much every qualified team in the state; Bryan Berend for showing up very early and providing invaluable impromptu help registering staff, among other tasks; Charlie Dees and Farzad Alikozai for giving several staffers a ride from Chicago; Zach Moser for housing visiting staffers; Alison Tomchik for running our third-floor control room all alone; Jonah Greenthal for designing our schedule and consulting extensively on many aspects of the tournament; and Donald Taylor for consultation, and keeping impeccable stats and seeding. In addition to the above, I'd like to personally thank my co-TD James Garcia, who definitely did the harder half of the work on this one.

I was pleased to play my part in putting on this tournament, which led to such outstanding and memorable competition. Most edifying was the chance to see so many bright, spirited, and talented young people from all throughout our state, competing with vigor and honor. I am very proud at how many excellent teams and players can be found in Illinois these days, and how hard we're obviously working as a state and circuit. More than ever, our field was truly worthy of a state championship. I can't wait to see how good next year's going to be!

Finally, some housekeeping. If you didn't get a copy of the question set and would like one, let me know and we can make arrangements (we certainly have many surplus copies!) Also, here are some items I found in my last sweep of the building:
*large legal pad with game scores in red ink, probably belonging to IMSA A;
*Five Star notebook with blank customizable cover, containing mostly economics and accountancy course notes with some quizbowl information;
*coat, 32º Heat brand, men's medium;
*pillow with green pillowcase, also containing one page of quizbowl notes (for osmotic purposes, perhaps;)
*light gray men's winter hat with ear flaps and cable chin strap;
*dark gray knit winter hat, Polo Ralph Lauren brand;
*recycled cotton lunch bag, Acme brand;
*Foster Grant Ironman sunglasses;
*white metal h2go water bottle inscribed "riverbed / Think fast."
*pair of gloves, small, dark green/blue with white knit patterns and pleather palms.
If one of them sounds like it might be yours, let me know and we'll try to get it back to you.

Hoping to see you all again, and more, at this tournament next year, and wishing the best to those competing in IHSA's, Masonics, PACE NSC, NAQT HSNCT & SSNCT, and NASAT,
Mike Sorice
Coach, Centennial High School of Champaign, IL (2014-2020) & Team Illinois (2016-2018)
Alumnus, Illinois ABT (2000-2002; 2003-2009) & Fenwick Scholastic Bowl (1999-2000)
Member, ACF (Emeritus), IHSSBCA, & PACE
remake20
Lulu
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 5:05 pm

Re: NAQT Illinois State Championship - 2/22/2014, Urbana, IL

Post by remake20 »

I'd like to thank Mr. Sorice and the rest of the staff for an excellent tournament that will easily go down as my favorite to date.
Andrew T.
Litchfield '15
Locked