Should "Shakespeare" be prompted if looking for "Hamlet?"

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Should "Shakespeare" be prompted if looking for "Hamlet?"

Post by pblessman » Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:23 pm

As questions are getting longer (and better!), and more and more questions about authors include substantial descriptions of plot lines of some of their works, it seems it becomes easier to miss whether a question is asking for the creator or the work. Would it make sense therefore if an answer of the correct author/creator of a work was promptable? Should Shakespeare be prompted if we're looking for Hamlet? No "wrong" answer has really been given, especially if we consider "Hamlet by Shakespeare" a correct answer.
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Re: Should "Shakespeare" be prompted if looking for "Hamlet?

Post by AKKOLADE » Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:24 pm

If the question mentions "this author," then no.
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Re: Should "Shakespeare" be prompted if looking for "Hamlet?

Post by Cody » Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:41 pm

No; this is almost always the case of a player not paying attention. 99% of good (non-NAQT) questions have many, clear pronouns in the tossup (of the vein "this author", or "he").
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Re: Should "Shakespeare" be prompted if looking for "Hamlet?

Post by pblessman » Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:01 pm

Thanks, guys, but both your responses do not address my question. My question was not asking about a question with an author as the answer, but a question that has a work as the answer. This is an important distinction (and it is a bit ironic that both replies which basically say that students should "just pay attention" show that sometimes it's maybe pretty hard to "just pay attention" because this can be confusing).

To clarify- if we allow author-work blitzing, i.e. if in a Shakespeare question with ONLY Hamlet hints before the buzz, "Hamlet by Shakespeare" is an acceptable answer for Shakespeare, why is "Shakespeare" not at least a promptable answer for "Hamlet"? This seems inconsistent to me. The student has said nothing wrong, and they probably actually know BOTH author and work, and most likely they are only confused about what the question is asking for.
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Re: Should "Shakespeare" be prompted if looking for "Hamlet?

Post by Cody » Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:12 pm

Sorry, I blame Fred :P. The same applies vice-versa, there's no real distinction. If the answer does not fit the pronoun, it's wrong. That's why pronouns are important: maybe a plot clue in the lead-in of a tossup applies to both a novel and a play, but the question started out by saying "This play". Buzzing with the novel would obviously be wrong.

Blitzing is mostly a remnant of bad questions, but fundamentally is basically the student saying "this clue is about X which is by Y" or some such - what the clue is talking about AND what the answer actually is. If you answer "Shakespeare" to a question talking about "this play", you have given a wrong answer, plain and simple.
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Re: Should "Shakespeare" be prompted if looking for "Hamlet?

Post by zachary_yan » Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:29 pm

Apparently part of the fun of quizbowl is having to pay attention on questions for the right pronoun, so to answer your question, no. Otherwise giving the answer as "Shakespeare" on a hard Hamlet answer line tossup shows "real knowledge". Some questions are intentionally written to accept multiple answer lines during the lead in e.g.: "Goryanchikov is deported to Siberia in one of this man's works". In this case anyone who knows the plot of "house of the dead" and answers as such before "this man" would be correct.

Edit: These types of tossups are bad, I'm just providing an example of a more "funn" type question that used to be prevalent
Last edited by zachary_yan on Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Should "Shakespeare" be prompted if looking for "Hamlet?

Post by Ben Dillon » Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:13 pm

So…. aren't you saying that blitzing should be outlawed because, once the pronoun is specified, answering "Shakespeare" is extra information that isn't correct?

EDIT: I mean blitzing with "Hamlet by Shakespeare", not just "Shakespeare".
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Re: Should "Shakespeare" be prompted if looking for "Hamlet?

Post by dtaylor4 » Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:15 am

Ben Dillon wrote:So…. aren't you saying that blitzing should be outlawed because, once the pronoun is specified, answering "Shakespeare" is extra information that isn't correct?

EDIT: I mean blitzing with "Hamlet by Shakespeare", not just "Shakespeare".
To my knowledge, extraneous relevant information is fine, as long as it is accurate, i.e. "Hamlet by Marlow" would be wrong.

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Re: Should "Shakespeare" be prompted if looking for "Hamlet?

Post by Gonzagapuma1 » Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:41 am

zachary_yan wrote:Apparently part of the fun of quizbowl is having to pay attention on questions for the right pronoun, so to answer your question, no. Otherwise giving the answer as "Shakespeare" on a hard Hamlet answer line tossup shows "real knowledge". Some questions are intentionally written to accept multiple answer lines during the lead in e.g.: "Goryanchikov is deported to Siberia in one of this man's works". In this case anyone who knows the plot of "house of the dead" and answers as such before "this man" would be correct.
That's why good tossups would put the pronoun in the beginning, i.e., "In one of this man's works Goryanchikov....".
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Re: Should "Shakespeare" be prompted if looking for "Hamlet?

Post by The Polebarn Hotel » Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:09 am

Gonzagapuma1 wrote:
zachary_yan wrote:Apparently part of the fun of quizbowl is having to pay attention on questions for the right pronoun, so to answer your question, no. Otherwise giving the answer as "Shakespeare" on a hard Hamlet answer line tossup shows "real knowledge". Some questions are intentionally written to accept multiple answer lines during the lead in e.g.: "Goryanchikov is deported to Siberia in one of this man's works". In this case anyone who knows the plot of "house of the dead" and answers as such before "this man" would be correct.
That's why good tossups would put the pronoun in the beginning, i.e., "In one of this man's works Goryanchikov....".
Absolutely. This is a theoretical situation where the tossups may not be as well-written. We're all human, and there may be one tossup where it starts out with a description of a work and it's impossible to tell whether they're looking for work, artist, series, etc.

Paying attention to pronouns is extremely important in quiz bowl, and it's entirely the player's fault if they miss it and it has been read. That being said, if "this work" has been stated once, it's the fault of the player, and they should not be prompted. If the answer does not correspond with the pronoun, it's 100% wrong and it's unreasonable to prompt on it.

To sum up, if a tossup reads "In this work, 'something rotten is in the state of Denmark'..." (which, of course, would be a giveaway, but that's besides the point) and someone gives Shakespeare, they are wrong. No prompt.
If it's a bad tossup where it starts out with "'Something is rotten in the state of Denmark' -" and someone buzzes and says Shakespeare when the answer is Hamlet, they should be prompted. Then, of course, they'd know to say Hamlet. There's nothing wrong with that.
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Re: Should "Shakespeare" be prompted if looking for "Hamlet?

Post by pblessman » Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:22 pm

dtaylor4 wrote:
Ben Dillon wrote:So…. aren't you saying that blitzing should be outlawed because, once the pronoun is specified, answering "Shakespeare" is extra information that isn't correct?

EDIT: I mean blitzing with "Hamlet by Shakespeare", not just "Shakespeare".
To my knowledge, extraneous relevant information is fine, as long as it is accurate, i.e. "Hamlet by Marlow" would be wrong.
Not to warm this up again, but the point Ben I think was trying to make is that if you blitz-answer "Hamlet by Shakespeare" for a SHAKESPEARE question but at the start it said "this author" then by the logic described here ("pronouns and descriptors are super-important and players should get punished for not hearing/remembering them") this answer should NOT be given, as they are clearly giving a work, not the author (even if all clues to that point pertain to Hamlet).
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Re: Should "Shakespeare" be prompted if looking for "Hamlet?

Post by Cheynem » Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:45 pm

I generally subscribe to a fairly empathetic, generous way of looking at quizbowl, which is about "I want to reward knowledge, not gameplaying" (I think I fall more on the 'knowledge' side than some camps). So to me, I would take things if they said an answer demonstrating clear knowledge. There are limits to this, obviously, like launching into 30 second speeches, but saying "work and author" to me represents fine knowledge and just distinguishing between if someone exactly recognizes if they want the author or work's name seems odd to me.
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Re: Should "Shakespeare" be prompted if looking for "Hamlet?

Post by Cody » Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:01 pm

By that grossly inaccurate interpretation of my response, if a player isn't paying attention to a clue s/he knows and would've buzzed correctly on, and an opposing player gets it on the next clue, the first player has been punished somehow. This hypothetical is obviously absurd.

Players are allowed to give two related, correct pieces of information (as long as one is the correct answer) because you don't want to penalize a player for giving further specifying information (e.g. Hamlet by Shakespeare is equivalent to Shakespeare's Hamlet, which is different from Marsden's Hamlet) or vocalizing parts of their thought process (e.g. Shakespeare's [play about that Danish dude]...Hamlet) or even their entire thought process (e.g. Shakespeare's play about that Danish dude - Hamlet?) or any number of other things where the player doesn't give wrong information. Including MORE, correct information can't invalidate a correct answer because you've demonstrated clear knowledge of what the question wants.

On the flip side, you have to draw a line at some point - some things are on the player, some things are on the rules, some things are on the question. It's on the player to pay attention to and remember the pronoun, and say the correct answer when responding. Saying just an author for a work is fundamentally wrong, just like saying "The Duchess of Malfi" can never be right for a tossup on a novel that includes a clue about a poisoned book.
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Re: Should "Shakespeare" be prompted if looking for "Hamlet?

Post by pblessman » Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:31 pm

People keep coming back to "Hamlet by Shakespeare" is acceptable for Hamlet. Yes, we all agree with that. BUT: Why is "Hamlet by Shakespeare" acceptable for "Shakespeare" when all hints are about Shakespeare? (THE PLAYER ANSWERED WITH A PLAY!) That's the question. And if that SHOULD be acceptable, i.e. giving an overly specific answer of a PLAY for an AUTHOR is acceptable, why is just giving the answer of a PLAY not promptable. If: "Hamlet" is a WRONG answer to a question, how can "Hamlet by Shakespeare" be a RIGHT answer to the same question? I believe it can't, and I suggest one of two logical remedies:

1. Work-author blitzes are ALWAYS WRONG when question asks for the author ("this work" logic)

or

2. Work-author blitzes are acceptable when question asks for the author AND "Work" answers are promptable. (LOGIC: If work/author blitz acceptable, than work promptable, as it is correct but not specific enough).

I just don't understand how the status quo makes logical sense. Please help me...
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Re: Should "Shakespeare" be prompted if looking for "Hamlet?

Post by Cheynem » Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:56 pm

"Hamlet by Shakespeare" is acceptable for Shakespeare because the player said Shakespeare within the outline of a blitz. The blitz rule doesn't really parse to see if you're saying a coherent sentence, it is checking to see if you are saying the correct answer. If this is bothersome, you can even think of it in terms of the player buzzing in and saying "Well that's Hamlet...by SHAKESPEARE."

The problem is if you just say "Hamlet" for a question on Shakespeare (or just say Shakespeare for a question on "Hamlet,") you have not said the correct answer and you have not properly demonstrated you know the correct answer. If you blitz, you are indicating it. I realize that in the rare scenarios where this is in play it comes down to whether or not a person has blitzed or not, but I think that's the best way of looking at what happens when people can't follow pronouns--if you don't know the pronoun, blitz.
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Re: Should "Shakespeare" be prompted if looking for "Hamlet?

Post by ryanrosenberg » Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:14 pm

Cheynem wrote:"Hamlet by Shakespeare" is acceptable for Shakespeare because the player said Shakespeare within the outline of a blitz. The blitz rule doesn't really parse to see if you're saying a coherent sentence, it is checking to see if you are saying the correct answer. If this is bothersome, you can even think of it in terms of the player buzzing in and saying "Well that's Hamlet...by SHAKESPEARE."
Yeah, this is why when I used to blitz a lot (and occasionally still do), I would couch my responses in a logical sentence, such as "That clue refers to Hamlet, which is by Shakespeare".
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Re: Should "Shakespeare" be prompted if looking for "Hamlet?

Post by pblessman » Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:17 pm

Cheynem wrote: I think that's the best way of looking at what happens when people can't follow pronouns--if you don't know the pronoun, blitz.


This reinforces my conundrum rather than solve it. If indeed as stated earlier: "If the answer does not fit the pronoun, it's wrong. That's why pronouns are important," blitzing should not be allowed. If blitzing is allowed in a case of people being confused by pronouns, then the work should be promptable in a question asking for the author.
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Re: Should "Shakespeare" be prompted if looking for "Hamlet?

Post by Cheynem » Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:42 pm

I'm not sure how this reinforces your conundrum. If a person is blitzing, they are saying an answer that fits the pronoun. If they do not, they are not.
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Re: Should "Shakespeare" be prompted if looking for "Hamlet?

Post by Coelacanth » Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:58 pm

pblessman wrote:
Cheynem wrote: I think that's the best way of looking at what happens when people can't follow pronouns--if you don't know the pronoun, blitz.


This reinforces my conundrum rather than solve it. If indeed as stated earlier: "If the answer does not fit the pronoun, it's wrong. That's why pronouns are important," blitzing should not be allowed. If blitzing is allowed in a case of people being confused by pronouns, then the work should be promptable in a question asking for the author.
The blitzing rule is an historical artifact dating from the time when question quality was poor and pronouns were often misleading or absent. The idea was to allow the player to get credit for a correct answer before the question made clear whether it was asking for a work or an author.

Modern questions don't have this ambiguity. The only reason blitzing is allowed today is that it's become an established practice. Thus, the existence of blitzing does not imply that you should be prompted if your answer doesn't match the pronoun.
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Re: Should "Shakespeare" be prompted if looking for "Hamlet?

Post by evilmonkey » Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:24 pm

pblessman wrote:
dtaylor4 wrote:
Ben Dillon wrote:So…. aren't you saying that blitzing should be outlawed because, once the pronoun is specified, answering "Shakespeare" is extra information that isn't correct?

EDIT: I mean blitzing with "Hamlet by Shakespeare", not just "Shakespeare".
To my knowledge, extraneous relevant information is fine, as long as it is accurate, i.e. "Hamlet by Marlow" would be wrong.
Not to warm this up again, but the point Ben I think was trying to make is that if you blitz-answer "Hamlet by Shakespeare" for a SHAKESPEARE question but at the start it said "this author" then by the logic described here ("pronouns and descriptors are super-important and players should get punished for not hearing/remembering them") this answer should NOT be given, as they are clearly giving a work, not the author (even if all clues to that point pertain to Hamlet).
Not to confuse things more, but at the collegiate level this is in fact the case in the ACF rules, as I unfortunately learned two years ago (I blitzed " 'Where the Sidewalk Ends' by Shel Silverstein", when the answer was "Shel Silverstein", and was negged).
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Re: Should "Shakespeare" be prompted if looking for "Hamlet?

Post by Cody » Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:36 pm

evilmonkey wrote:Not to confuse things more, but at the collegiate level this is in fact the case in the ACF rules, as I unfortunately learned two years ago (I blitzed " 'Where the Sidewalk Ends' by Shel Silverstein", when the answer was "Shel Silverstein", and was negged).
Just because a moderator does not know the rules doesn't mean they don't exist.
ACF Rule G(2) wrote:Two or more pieces of related information of different types, such as author/book, president/organization, or actor/role, but not two authors, three books, etc., may be given and treated as one answer. If any part contains the answer being sought, and the items are correctly related, the answer shall be ruled correct. If the parts are not related, or neither is the answer being sought, the answer shall be ruled incorrect. For examples, “Robert Jordan, For Whom the Bell Tolls” is correct if the answer being sought is Robert Jordan or For Whom the Bell Tolls but not if the answer is “Ernest Hemingway.” “Frederic Henry, For Whom the Bell Tolls” is never acceptable regardless of what the answer being sought is, since Frederic Henry is not in For Whom the Bell Tolls.
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Re: Should "Shakespeare" be prompted if looking for "Hamlet?

Post by The Polebarn Hotel » Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:22 pm

I think as long as the correct answer is given in a blitz, with correct extraneous information, then it should be correct. I don't know how it's a conundrum; it's pretty straightforward. If there's a clue about Hamlet given, and it says "this author" at the beginning of the question, "Hamlet by Shakespeare" should still be accepted. Just "Hamlet" should not. This should be stressed with moderators, so cases like the above don't happen.
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Re: Should "Shakespeare" be prompted if looking for "Hamlet?

Post by mushroom » Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:27 pm

Just to confirm that I correctly understand the creator-created work rules as they currently stand, under NAQT and ACF rules:

Can you answer an author and the work at ANY time during a tossup with an answer of either the author or the work? If I'm not sure whether a tossup is asking for Tennessee Williams or Cat on a Hot Tin Roof, is it acceptable to answer "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof by Tennessee Williams" at any time during

1. a tossup with an answerline of "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof" (assuming it wasn't referring to some other author's Cat on a Hot Tin Roof).
or
2. a tossup with an answerline of "Tennessee Williams" even if the Williams TU had previously mentioned works of his other than Cat on a Hot Tin Roof, but the clue I buzzed on referred to Cat on a Hot Tin Roof.

I'm fairly certain it's acceptable in the first case, but I'm not so sure about the second case.
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Re: Should "Shakespeare" be prompted if looking for "Hamlet?

Post by The Polebarn Hotel » Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:09 am

mushroom wrote:Just to confirm that I correctly understand the creator-created work rules as they currently stand, under NAQT and ACF rules:

Can you answer an author and the work at ANY time during a tossup with an answer of either the author or the work? If I'm not sure whether a tossup is asking for Tennessee Williams or Cat on a Hot Tin Roof, is it acceptable to answer "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof by Tennessee Williams" at any time during

1. a tossup with an answerline of "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof" (assuming it wasn't referring to some other author's Cat on a Hot Tin Roof).
or
2. a tossup with an answerline of "Tennessee Williams" even if the Williams TU had previously mentioned works of his other than Cat on a Hot Tin Roof, but the clue I buzzed on referred to Cat on a Hot Tin Roof.

I'm fairly certain it's acceptable in the first case, but I'm not so sure about the second case.
Well, you mentioned Tennessee Williams, but the extraneous information was only correct pertaining the the clue you buzzed in on. I'm honestly not sure what to do in a case like this, and I agree that it could cause some confusion. I usually think that a player should be rewarded as much as reasonably possible, and they did mention Tennessee Williams, which was correct. So I'm leaning more towards the side of accepting that answer rather than negging.
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Re: Should "Shakespeare" be prompted if looking for "Hamlet?

Post by Cody » Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:30 am

mushroom wrote:2. a tossup with an answerline of "Tennessee Williams" even if the Williams TU had previously mentioned works of his other than Cat on a Hot Tin Roof, but the clue I buzzed on referred to Cat on a Hot Tin Roof.
This is fine even if you are mistaken and the clue is not about Cat on a Hot Tin Roof, or clues about Cat on a Hot Tin Roof do not appear in the question at all.
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Re: Should "Shakespeare" be prompted if looking for "Hamlet?

Post by The Polebarn Hotel » Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:23 pm

Renesmee LaHotdog Voight wrote:
mushroom wrote:2. a tossup with an answerline of "Tennessee Williams" even if the Williams TU had previously mentioned works of his other than Cat on a Hot Tin Roof, but the clue I buzzed on referred to Cat on a Hot Tin Roof.
This is fine even if you are mistaken and the clue is not about Cat on a Hot Tin Roof, or clues about Cat on a Hot Tin Roof do not appear in the question at all.
Is it though? Because that extraneous information would technically be incorrect pertaining to the question (if there isn't any clue about Cat on a Hot Tin Roof).
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Re: Should "Shakespeare" be prompted if looking for "Hamlet?

Post by Cody » Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:36 pm

Crazyflight wrote:Is it though?
Yes. I don't recall the NSC rule off the top of my head, but neither the NAQT rule nor the ACF Rule suggest that the blitz must correlate with the clue being read or a clue in the tossup at all. [Such a reading would require every moderator to have knowledge of every clue in the question, which is unlikely, to say the least.]

Attempting to 'punish' people who arrive at the correct answer through some faulty logic is an impossible task.
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Re: Should "Shakespeare" be prompted if looking for "Hamlet?

Post by The Polebarn Hotel » Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:16 pm

Renesmee LaHotdog Voight wrote:
Crazyflight wrote:Is it though?
Yes. I don't recall the NSC rule off the top of my head, but neither the NAQT rule nor the ACF Rule suggest that the blitz must correlate with the clue being read or a clue in the tossup at all. [Such a reading would require every moderator to have knowledge of every clue in the question, which is unlikely, to say the least.]

Attempting to 'punish' people who arrive at the correct answer through some faulty logic is an impossible task.
Then what's the difference between that and saying "Hamlet by Marlowe," or even "Hamlet by e.e. cummings" in a tossup on Hamlet? Maybe there's a tossup on a more obscure author that a question reader may not know, like Heinrich Böll (for sake of example, I don't really know how well-known he is). If the question doesn't mention The Lost Honor of Katharina Blum anywhere in the question and someone buzzes in saying "The Lost Honor of Katharina Blum by Böll," how is the reader supposed to know that Böll actually wrote that? Wouldn't that just be considered extraneous information?
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Re: Should "Shakespeare" be prompted if looking for "Hamlet?

Post by dtaylor4 » Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:51 pm

Crazyflight wrote:
Renesmee LaHotdog Voight wrote:
Crazyflight wrote:Is it though?
Yes. I don't recall the NSC rule off the top of my head, but neither the NAQT rule nor the ACF Rule suggest that the blitz must correlate with the clue being read or a clue in the tossup at all. [Such a reading would require every moderator to have knowledge of every clue in the question, which is unlikely, to say the least.]

Attempting to 'punish' people who arrive at the correct answer through some faulty logic is an impossible task.
Then what's the difference between that and saying "Hamlet by Marlowe," or even "Hamlet by e.e. cummings" in a tossup on Hamlet? Maybe there's a tossup on a more obscure author that a question reader may not know, like Heinrich Böll (for sake of example, I don't really know how well-known he is). If the question doesn't mention The Lost Honor of Katharina Blum anywhere in the question and someone buzzes in saying "The Lost Honor of Katharina Blum by Böll," how is the reader supposed to know that Böll actually wrote that? Wouldn't that just be considered extraneous information?
Extraneous information is fine, but if it is inaccurate, then the answer is wrong.

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Re: Should "Shakespeare" be prompted if looking for "Hamlet?

Post by Sniper, No Sniping! » Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:28 am

Crazyflight wrote:
Renesmee LaHotdog Voight wrote:
Crazyflight wrote:Is it though?
Yes. I don't recall the NSC rule off the top of my head, but neither the NAQT rule nor the ACF Rule suggest that the blitz must correlate with the clue being read or a clue in the tossup at all. [Such a reading would require every moderator to have knowledge of every clue in the question, which is unlikely, to say the least.]

Attempting to 'punish' people who arrive at the correct answer through some faulty logic is an impossible task.
Then what's the difference between that and saying "Hamlet by Marlowe," or even "Hamlet by e.e. cummings" in a tossup on Hamlet? Maybe there's a tossup on a more obscure author that a question reader may not know, like Heinrich Böll (for sake of example, I don't really know how well-known he is). If the question doesn't mention The Lost Honor of Katharina Blum anywhere in the question and someone buzzes in saying "The Lost Honor of Katharina Blum by Böll," how is the reader supposed to know that Böll actually wrote that? Wouldn't that just be considered extraneous information?
The tossup probably states "this author of The Lost Honor of Katharina Blum" somewhere in the question. If not, you can obviously protest if the validity of "Boll wrote The Lost Honor of Katharina Blum" is questioned.
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Re: Should "Shakespeare" be prompted if looking for "Hamlet?

Post by Cody » Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:15 am

Crazyflight wrote:Then what's the difference between that and saying "Hamlet by Marlowe," or even "Hamlet by e.e. cummings" in a tossup on Hamlet? Maybe there's a tossup on a more obscure author that a question reader may not know, like Heinrich Böll (for sake of example, I don't really know how well-known he is). If the question doesn't mention The Lost Honor of Katharina Blum anywhere in the question and someone buzzes in saying "The Lost Honor of Katharina Blum by Böll," how is the reader supposed to know that Böll actually wrote that? Wouldn't that just be considered extraneous information?
The difference is those pieces of information are not correctly related, i.e. Hamlet is not by Marlowe or e.e. cummings. It is very easy to confirm whether two pieces of information are correctly related (it takes like 15 seconds if: it isn't in the question, the moderator does not know, and both teams can't confirm it); it's much harder to look up all the clues in the tossup searching for the one that might mention the work used in the blitz. More importantly, who's to say that the extraneous information (with a correct relation) wasn't part of a longer thought process? I've seen way crazier put-togethers than "this sounds like X, which is by the author of Y, who is Z" [except all they say is Y by Z].

As I said, attempting to 'punish' people who arrive at the correct answer through some faulty logic is an impossible task. You're far more likely to harm people buzzing correctly than prevent wrong people from answering.
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Re: Should "Shakespeare" be prompted if looking for "Hamlet?

Post by The Polebarn Hotel » Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:39 pm

Mr. Scogan wrote:
Crazyflight wrote:
Then what's the difference between that and saying "Hamlet by Marlowe," or even "Hamlet by e.e. cummings" in a tossup on Hamlet? Maybe there's a tossup on a more obscure author that a question reader may not know, like Heinrich Böll (for sake of example, I don't really know how well-known he is). If the question doesn't mention The Lost Honor of Katharina Blum anywhere in the question and someone buzzes in saying "The Lost Honor of Katharina Blum by Böll," how is the reader supposed to know that Böll actually wrote that? Wouldn't that just be considered extraneous information?
The tossup probably states "this author of The Lost Honor of Katharina Blum" somewhere in the question. If not, you can obviously protest if the validity of "Boll wrote The Lost Honor of Katharina Blum" is questioned.
Of course the tossup says "this author" somewhere; Heinrich Böll is the answer line. But if the tossup doesn't mention The Lost Honor of Katharina Blum and some mistaken player buzzes in and says that, why wouldn't that be considered extraneous incorrect information?
Renesmee LaHotdog Voight wrote:
Crazyflight wrote:Then what's the difference between that and saying "Hamlet by Marlowe," or even "Hamlet by e.e. cummings" in a tossup on Hamlet? Maybe there's a tossup on a more obscure author that a question reader may not know, like Heinrich Böll (for sake of example, I don't really know how well-known he is). If the question doesn't mention The Lost Honor of Katharina Blum anywhere in the question and someone buzzes in saying "The Lost Honor of Katharina Blum by Böll," how is the reader supposed to know that Böll actually wrote that? Wouldn't that just be considered extraneous information?
The difference is those pieces of information are not correctly related, i.e. Hamlet is not by Marlowe or e.e. cummings. It is very easy to confirm whether two pieces of information are correctly related (it takes like 15 seconds if: it isn't in the question, the moderator does not know, and both teams can't confirm it); it's much harder to look up all the clues in the tossup searching for the one that might mention the work used in the blitz. More importantly, who's to say that the extraneous information (with a correct relation) wasn't part of a longer thought process? I've seen way crazier put-togethers than "this sounds like X, which is by the author of Y, who is Z" [except all they say is Y by Z].

As I said, attempting to 'punish' people who arrive at the correct answer through some faulty logic is an impossible task. You're far more likely to harm people buzzing correctly than prevent wrong people from answering.
Okay, I seem to understand what you're saying. But with that, who's to say that an answer with absurd extraneous information isn't part of a larger thought process? If someone buzzes in on an e.e. cummings tossup and says "Hamlet by e.e. cummings," they'd be correct by your logic. But some people (and the rules?) think that's incorrect. I might be misinterpreting what you're trying to say.
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Re: Should "Shakespeare" be prompted if looking for "Hamlet?

Post by dtaylor4 » Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:20 pm

Crazyflight wrote:Okay, I seem to understand what you're saying. But with that, who's to say that an answer with absurd extraneous information isn't part of a larger thought process? If someone buzzes in on an e.e. cummings tossup and says "Hamlet by e.e. cummings," they'd be correct by your logic. But some people (and the rules?) think that's incorrect. I might be misinterpreting what you're trying to say.
The only requirements of extraneous information are that it be accurate, and given within the allotted time.

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Re: Should "Shakespeare" be prompted if looking for "Hamlet?

Post by The Polebarn Hotel » Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:43 pm

dtaylor4 wrote:
Crazyflight wrote:Okay, I seem to understand what you're saying. But with that, who's to say that an answer with absurd extraneous information isn't part of a larger thought process? If someone buzzes in on an e.e. cummings tossup and says "Hamlet by e.e. cummings," they'd be correct by your logic. But some people (and the rules?) think that's incorrect. I might be misinterpreting what you're trying to say.
The only requirements of extraneous information are that it be accurate, and given within the allotted time.
Accurate meaning within the question, or accurate meaning something that's relevant to the author/whatever the answer line is, but may or may not be in the question at all?
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Re: Should "Shakespeare" be prompted if looking for "Hamlet?

Post by dtaylor4 » Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:48 am

the ACF Rule wrote:Two or more pieces of related information of different types, such as author/book, president/organization, or actor/role, but not two authors, three books, etc., may be given and treated as one answer. If any part contains the answer being sought, and the items are correctly related, the answer shall be ruled correct. If the parts are not related, or neither is the answer being sought, the answer shall be ruled incorrect. For examples, “Robert Jordan, For Whom the Bell Tolls” is correct if the answer being sought is Robert Jordan or For Whom the Bell Tolls but not if the answer is “Ernest Hemingway.” “Frederic Henry, For Whom the Bell Tolls” is never acceptable regardless of what the answer being sought is, since Frederic Henry is not in For Whom the Bell Tolls.
Per the ACF rule, it does not have to relate to the question. As a moderator, what matters is what the player directs at me, assuming the answer is within the allotted time.

As a player: pay attention to the pronouns, and do not be afraid of talking aloud, as long as you clearly direct the answer.

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Re: Should "Shakespeare" be prompted if looking for "Hamlet?

Post by The Polebarn Hotel » Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:39 am

dtaylor4 wrote:
the ACF Rule wrote:Two or more pieces of related information of different types, such as author/book, president/organization, or actor/role, but not two authors, three books, etc., may be given and treated as one answer. If any part contains the answer being sought, and the items are correctly related, the answer shall be ruled correct. If the parts are not related, or neither is the answer being sought, the answer shall be ruled incorrect. For examples, “Robert Jordan, For Whom the Bell Tolls” is correct if the answer being sought is Robert Jordan or For Whom the Bell Tolls but not if the answer is “Ernest Hemingway.” “Frederic Henry, For Whom the Bell Tolls” is never acceptable regardless of what the answer being sought is, since Frederic Henry is not in For Whom the Bell Tolls.
Per the ACF rule, it does not have to relate to the question. As a moderator, what matters is what the player directs at me, assuming the answer is within the allotted time.

As a player: pay attention to the pronouns, and do not be afraid of talking aloud, as long as you clearly direct the answer.
Okay, good to know.
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