Best from IL, MI, IN, OH

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Best from IL, MI, IN, OH

Post by pblessman »

Just to be controversial, I'll throw out who I think the top five teams this year from IL, MI, IN and OH are:

1. Solon (OH)
2. Brebeuf Jesuit (IN)
3. DCC (MI)
4. Fremd (IL)
5. Harrison (IN)

Note: We've played all of these teams except Fremd, so I'm not sure where they should rank exactly. Among other top level teams we've also played against Tippecanoe (OH), Stevenson (IL), D-Mac (IL), Marist (IL)and New Trier (IL), so I feel like I have a pretty good sense of who is out there... but please discuss!

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Post by HAHAHA »

I dont know that Fremd belongs on that list above either New Trier or Auburn. Seeing as how I've not played Auburn, I can't really judge their ability, and we lost to New Trier on Saturday. But I guess we'll know better after Masonic Sate next weekend.
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Post by Phishphan »

Auburn is fantastic. I lost to them in the semifinals of a tournament. They are something else. Definately a notch above the rest from Illinois (they remind me of Wheaton North from last year).
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Post by HAHAHA »

Phishphan, out of curiosity, where do you go?
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Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh »

I don't know if Auburn is a notch above all...they're good, but for all intents and purposes, if you take Tyler out, they become another above-average AA team, akin to Streator, Moline, Boylan, etc.. Colleen is good for literature, but (as in Masonics, when she was pulled for a match to load up on SS) she cannot pull a team the way Tyler can. Auburn's good, I favor them to place top 3 at state, maybe winning it, but they are NOT '04 Wheaton North.
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Post by Phishphan »

I'm from BG (I just tried some undercover work in the other thread), so I'll see you thurs HAHAHA. I agree that if you take Tyler out, Auburn is just above average, but that is a BIG 'if'. Granted, my opinion might be skewed by the one game I saw them play but they were VERY good.
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Post by solonqb »

I would be wary about ranking DCC below us; we have a 2-2 record against each other and our games are usually very close, as are our total points.
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Post by zwtipp »

We've been getting ever closer to beating DCC each time we play them and we're 1-1 against Solon, but I wouldn't put us above either of them until we've actually beaten them by a decent margin.
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Post by Stained Diviner »

According to the latest coaches' poll in Illinois, the top five among big schools are:
1. Auburn
2. Fremd
3. New Trier
4. Stevenson
5. Wheaton North

The top small school is Chillicothe IVC.

New Trier was missing a key player against Culver earlier this year (our best social studies guy in a tournament with lots of social studies questions). We should have our full lineup at NAQT Nationals.
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Post by Tegan »

Except for Solon, we were battered early and often by all of those teams (though we did beat Stevenson at one point this year). I would agree with that list(s), and only throw in (for your consideration) Fenwick. While a trifle inconsistent, there are moments when they do get to be unbeatable.

Auburn is truly one of the more intereting teams I have seen this year. When we lost to them, it was not a blowout, and only occasionally were they really fast. They tend to be very patient......on bonuses they will kill you three times before you hit the floor. I have a lot of respect for Fremd and Auburn being among the more balanced teams I have seen. I disagree that Tyler is a one man wrecking crew. True, without him Auburn is weaker, but they are still good.

New Trier is good...very good. They almost always are. Failure to respect the Trevians is very bad. You need to be willing to buzz in fast or there is no chance. Very tough in math/science.

Hoffman Estates, on a good day, can beat anyone. Period. They have Neo-like moments where they can move like Matrix agents, and they do know kung fu. Buffalo Grove and Libertyville are also quite tough to beat.

I for one think that this year has a great opportunity to see a final group of 8 downstate in Class AA with at least seven quality teams......it might be the most competitive State Finals around.

As far as small schools, I await Timothy Christian v. Latin at some point.......I think the streak is at least in jeopardy.
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Post by steven-lamp »

Just from results/reputations, I'd probably just go ahead and put Solon and DCC in a #1 tied position...
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Post by alkrav112 »

I haven't had the personal pleasure of playing Solon since early last year, where our team (Farmington) lost to them by ten points. We've been coming very close to beating DCC lately (one tossup/bonus margin last game), but we don't travel much, so our team really doesn't face any IL/IN competition. I have to say that based on reputation and the few encounters we've had, I have to go with Solon as the better team, but take that with a grain of salt.
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Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh »

Tegan wrote:As far as small schools, I await Timothy Christian v. Latin at some point.......I think the streak is at least in jeopardy.
Heh, you think you're awaiting that one? This is the kind of matchup that makes me grateful to be in Northern Illinois....Bago may have to get through Galena and Byron, but at least we would only have to play one of the Latin and Elmhurst sectional.

Who's the stronger team? Who should I be rooting for for an upset? Anyone seen these two this year?
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CONTROVERSY!

Post by pblessman »

Hey, IL people... maybe you missed my point: I was trying to stir CONTROVERSY by stating that there are at least three teams in the IN, OH and MI that I think are better than ANY team in IL this year, whether it's Fremd, Auburn or somebody else... So let's see some venom!

P.S.: ...and nobody has even discussed Jesuit Brebeuf, who, by the way, beat DCC two games in a row this past weekend at our tournament...
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Re: CONTROVERSY!

Post by Tegan »

pblessman wrote:So let's see some venom!
I don't know what's worse...Cheeseheads or Hoosiers

As the song goes..."There's more than corrrnnnn in INdiana...but not much."

Frankly the top teams we saw in Indiana were real....Harrison, St. Joes, Culver, St. John Brebeuf. My question would be: are there any other teams in Indiana comprable to that quartet that were not at Culver last weekend?

I know DCC is in the Cooperstown of Michigan quizbowl, and figure there are a few more on the LP that could bring a whomping at will.
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Re: CONTROVERSY!

Post by dtaylor4 »

Tegan wrote:
pblessman wrote:So let's see some venom!
I don't know what's worse...Cheeseheads or Hoosiers

As the song goes..."There's more than corrrnnnn in INdiana...but not much."

Frankly the top teams we saw in Indiana were real....Harrison, St. Joes, Culver, St. John Brebeuf. My question would be: are there any other teams in Indiana comprable to that quartet that were not at Culver last weekend?

I know DCC is in the Cooperstown of Michigan quizbowl, and figure there are a few more on the LP that could bring a whomping at will.
From my experience against Culver (which is only one modifed NAQT match, i would have loved the rematch), they're ok, but I think that if more of the elite teams in Illinois went to Culver instead of Masonic (money is a lure), Illinois teams would have ruled the top 8.
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Re: CONTROVERSY!

Post by Tegan »

DaGeneral wrote:From my experience against Culver (which is only one modifed NAQT match, i would have loved the rematch), they're ok, but I think that if more of the elite teams in Illinois went to Culver instead of Masonic (money is a lure), Illinois teams would have ruled the top 8.
I don't know about that......I'm not sure that any Illinois team I have seen this year (including Auburn and Fremd) would have beaten St. John Brebeuf or DCC. After that, I think the top Illinois teams would have brought the fire (NT, Aub, Fremd, DMac, Fenwick, HEHS, etc).

The one thing that I found ineresting is that many teams seemed to have divided up their better players onto their "B" and "C" teams. In Illinois, this is really looked down upon. I notcied that a ton of "B" and "C" players were among the top scorers, and that DCC and St. John were pretty close to being one man wrecking crews (though darn good ones!). I presume that is just a difference of philosophy.
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Post by dtaylor4 »

I think that teams should do their best to win WITHIN THE BOUNDARIES OF FAIR PLAY, but what some of those teams did is deplorable. To me, what a coach should do is put the best team as the "A" team, the second best as the "B" team, and on down the line.
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Culver is not among the IN elite//Nothing deplorable...

Post by pblessman »

Just a couple quick disclaimers:

1. Culver is not among the IN elite... Harrison and Brebeuf are in a differenty category from us (and so are Solon and DCC). These are the four teams that we've seen this year which have been a notch above anybody else.

2. Some B teams had high scorers at Culver, but I always take these stats with a grain of salt. Here are the actual stats for the top twenty scorers:

Culver Inv. Individual stats:

1 Matt Brebeuf 118.0
2 Joel DCC A 97.0
3 Alex Harrison A 91.7
4 Lane Culver A 55.0
5 Mike Maine South50.0
6 Noah Culver A 41.0
7 John St. Joe's A 34.0
8 Dan Harrison B 31.3
9 Jon Harrison B 30.0
10 Jennifer Culver B 29.0
11 Neehar St. Joe's A 27.0
12 Bryce Culver A 26.0
13 David Adams D 25.0
14 Fuhe Harrison A 25.0
15 Ariel Harrison C 25.0
16 Kurt Pioneer 25.0
17 Charlie Adams A 22.0
18 Carl DCC B 22.0
19 Brendan Adams B 21.3
20 Doug DCC A 21.0

It's true that Harrison B had two scorers with 30 ppg, but if they HAD been on Harrison A, there is NO WAY they would have scored 30 ppg... Alex (who averaged 92 ppg) would have siphoned off most those toss-ups. The only oddity I see in this list is David from Adams D... 25 ppg and no scorer from Adams A, B or C with more ppg- but Adams hasn't played much, so I think their coach might have just thrown them together ad hoc.
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Post by jrbellas »

Phil, I'd like to echo your sentiments about Solon being as good or better than DCC, but its very close. We unfortunately could not attend your tournament this past weekend, since we'd already played on that NAQT set and were unable to compete, but I respect your judgement on the comparison of Ohio to Illinois teams, with a few Michigan schools thrown in. I might even put Okemos into a top five, as well as your own Culver team, which is very good and deserves more credit than you give yourselves. You also need to check out Garfield Hts. - they are the real deal as well and have defeated Solon this year.

My top five (based ONLY on what I've seen, apologies to Ind. and Ill)
1. Solon
2. DCC
3. Garfield Hts.
4. Spotswood, Va.
5. Okemos
t.6 - Culver, New Trier, Ripley (Wva.), Fisher Catholic (OH)
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Post by wwellington »

If you're going to include us in the top five, Tippecanoe should probably be up there too, as I'm pretty sure we have yet to beat you guys.
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Post by jrbellas »

I think Tipp played you back in November, and I'd rate our performance since then as inconsistent. We can't seem to beat the big teams (like DCC) when it matters, but we are capable of maybe playing awesome on one or two rounds of questions per tournament.

For instance, we slept/walked through the West Virginia Wesleyan tourney and barely made the playoffs, then beat the #3, #2, and #1 seeds to win the whole thing. It makes me wonder if the coaching is just that poor, or if all the Tippecanoe kids have ADD! :roll:

Okemos is very solid and if you played in Ohio, you would easily be a top five team in this state. I have a healthy dose of respect for you and every team I rated above us - I honestly think we have some work to do before we can seriously be considered even in the top 10 of the midwest. However, we have played a lot of those schools and in some games, we have hung there and competed well, even if we don't always win. I suppose losing to DCC by two tossups isn't anything to be embarassed about.
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Post by wwellington »

Thanks for that. And two tossups isn't bad at all.
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Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh »

Anyone here who says Illinois teams should be ranked higher needs to take off their earmuffs and listen to the problem with Illinois quiz bowl. The only team that can make a case for their ranking among other states is New Trier. No other team in Illinois has placed in a national tournament recently, and the fact that NT went, let alone placed, is a testament to the devotion of Mr. Reinstein and his team. It takes serious guts to go to a national tournament populated by teams that consider Illinois the equivalent of a third world country when it comes to quiz bowl.

Our questions are all too often short and banal. Our categories range from canonical literature and math to "industrial arts" and driver's education. Our rules restrict us to 18 dates per year, and only 1 after State ends. Our teams do not leave the state for the most part, and we are shielded from other formats and questions. We are blinded by traditional games and it is only creating a veil of ignorance that needs to be dropped.

Our state series questions are written by NAQT. When will the rest be alike? When will the days of "Name the author of" be replaced by pyramids? When will studying be hard again?

No offense, Auburn, Fremd, NT, etc., would wipe the floor with 99% of the others on Illinois questions, simply because of the "home field" advantages....sadly, we're playing in the vacant lot in the industrial park against the country club kids. Illinois could reign supreme if it would evolve and join the rest of the nation. Sadly, the IHSA, the blind leading the deaf, will not take it upon themselves nor thrust it upon us to let us grow.
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Post by BobGHHS »

I agree with Joe that DCC and Solon are pretty even. Yes, we beat Solon, and lost to DCC, but we are also an inconsistent team, and in Ohio format, I can almost guarantee we'll get smacked around this weekend at Copley, as we've played all of like 15 OAC matches this entire year so far, all within our league and at Aurora. I think Tipp and Garfield are in the same boat in regards to consistency... we put together a good run at Buzzerpalooza, but look at the results of the round we played Turpin. We scored like 290, Solon had 500 and DCC had around 500.... then we managed to get by Solon a round later.... question content has a lot to do with it, and we're strong in certain areas.... as for being able to compete with all those teams, who knows... money issues have limited our travel.... we'll see what happens if we goto nationals.
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Post by Tegan »

Since I feel that Styxman is holding back a little, allow me to agree with him...a little.

I agree that Illinois should move toward broader writing (topics), pyramidal style toss-up questions, and push the envelope of writing. When I wrote the original proposal to the IHSA, I was originally just trying to get a better quality of question....but I now see (and a agree) that many people were supporting the move to also open up the questions. Regretfully, in the past two years, I feel that they have been dragged back more into the "cannon" subject areas. As one coach quoted to me "the questions need to be more academic...such as including more industrial arts" and he was NOT kidding :shock:

Coach Riley has his Illinois NAQT tournament coming up, and could not get more than a handful of teams to show up. Ridiculous! I know some teams are occupied (I think Fremd isn't coming, but not out of fear....out of previous obligation elsewhere...DMac too), but too many teams just won't even try it.

Some coaches have been calling for an uprising for years....perhaps we are seeing some of that now as some 70 teams were dropped from the State Series due to noncompliance. Maybe, sith some of these teams gone in the future, there may be room to get Illinois more in line with the rest of the nation.

I have gone on record, and remain so, that Illinois is hardly the backwater, and rather is a national leader in scholastic bowl...just because a few states look down their noses at us is meaningless. I think our talent is great. I wouldn't claim we are the best or #2 or #3, but the last couple of years has started to see former Illinois players elevate themselves on the national level...more and moreplayers are coming back into the ranks as teachers and coaches......as more players come back, they will be the ones to lead change.
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Post by dtaylor4 »

yeah, d-mac is helping set up a local tournament this weekend, so we can't make it. to reinforce egan's point, look at the former illinois players on the team at the u of i that won a national title (gary leuty and kelly tourdot are the ones i know, there may be others), and i know a few good players besides myself that are hoping to be a part of that next year
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Post by Trevkeeper »

Just curious, who?
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Post by Stained Diviner »

To correct styxman a little bit:
1) NAQT does not write our state questions.
2) Illinois is not the only state that has its share of bad questions. There are several vendors who make a lot of money selling bad questions at cheap prices to tournaments all over the country. Good questions are the exception rather than the rule in most geographic regions, though there are a decent number of tournaments where good questions are the rule.
3) My dedication is first to my family. I sent my co-coach to Maryland while I stayed at home.
4) Don't sell Illinois short. Based on reputation, I thought DCC would cream us when we played them last year at Wash U. We beat them. Good Illinois teams are good teams. Maybe not as good as Virginia and Maryland, but on a par with the best of the rest. I cannot prove this assertion now, but I will be able to eventually.

Don't take this the wrong way--much of what you said is correct. I would like to see some better questions myself.
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Post by morpheus »

I agree with styxman that Illinois teams should go to national tournaments more. My team (Fremd) unfortunately does not attend any. However, this is because we have prior commitments to keep, not because we don't have any guts. Also, I've never personally heard any questions about driver education, and the industrial arts in a tournament that we have attended. I also want to mention that I've noticed a lot of changes from last year in the format of questions used. I know that in the tournaments that we've attended this year, including all conference matches have used longer format/pyramid questions. And fortunately, Fremd has thrived on this format.

Also, I was a little disappointed with the Masonic questions last Saturday (even though I really don't have any reason to complain, since we qualified as a wild card by virtue of our high point total). I'm hoping that the state competition will feature some longer questions, although it probably won't. I'm really excited regardless, since this is the first time that Fremd has received the opportunity to go to Springfield in a long while.
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Post by Captain Sinico »

The two things that Illinois format does foster are an emphasis on bonus conversion (due to rebounding) and buzzer agressiveness (due to no negs and rebounding.) The former is actually how most games at high levels are won and lost; the latter... well, it can be good or bad, depending. A lot of people get "afraid to buzz" on new (neg-having and non-rebounding) formats. Conversely, others could have used a bit more moderation in buzzing (C.f. the first few years of my collegiate career.)
That said, the best teams I've ever seen in Illinois would certainly be competative at the national level in any given year, though I sincerely doubt any of them would have won due to the difference between the national and Illinois canons (for the legit. nationals, that is; bizzare ones like Chip and Panasonic I can't speak about and moreover don't care about.)

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Post by dtaylor4 »

trev, i know for a fact that devin from wn (one of the quickest math people i have ever seen) is going there (he is a senior). also, i have heard driver's ed in several tournaments, and thankfully 2/3 of our varsity is sophomores, so no one's takin that from us. the main place i really heard pyramid questions was at solo (loved it, keep it up), but everywhere else, especially at downstate invitationals, questions are rarely longer than 2-3 lines unless there's a long quote.
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Post by Gordon Gekko »

Tegan wrote: Some coaches have been calling for an uprising for years....perhaps we are seeing some of that now as some 70 teams were dropped from the State Series due to noncompliance. Maybe, sith some of these teams gone in the future, there may be room to get Illinois more in line with the rest of the nation.
You know it would seem the time may be right for the IL Coaches Association to run their own state tournament with questions that are more along the lines of what have been discussed by many of the posters here....pyramided questions with more substance. Granted not everyone in the state would play on it but I am willing to wager a fair amount that the top teams in the state both would play it and that it would be well worth watching....

Not that I am encouraging revolution or anything :smile:, because let's face it most teams are always going to and should play the IHSA state series, but it seems to be that there are enough tournaments taking place that it would be not that outlandish of a proposal to dertermine and invite the top teams in the state to a one day playoff that is not single elimination and has good, more difficult, pyramided questions sometime late in the season. The format could be different so you wouldn't burn an IHSA offical date and teams with nationals ambitions could actually get some tune up before they go to such a tournament...

Just a thought, I don't know if anyone would go for it but sign me up as willing to moderate or write some questions for such any such encounter...and somehow i doubt i am the only one...
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Post by Admiral »

Maybe there could be a rotating "Great Lakes" championship in the summer.....Mn, Wi, Il, In, Mi, Oh (Pa & NY?)
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Great Lakes Championship... I like it!

Post by pblessman »

Great idea... Maybe we could run this as a regular Nationals warm-up in April or May? We'd be happy to host it here at Culver Academies, as we're centrally located for the region described. I'll post a poll to see how many people would be interested!
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Post by Matt Weiner »

Case Western runs their Great Lakes Regional Academic Championship at the end of March. It usually attracts teams from PA, OH, and MI and I'm sure they'd welcome those from further afield.
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Case Western Reserve Tourney

Post by pblessman »

I think Admiral's (and my) suggestion was misuderstood:

The idea is NOT to take an already existing university or high school run tournament and add large numbers of out of state teams to it. The idea would be to start a new tournament which is not associated with any specific institution (similar to a state championship) but is only hosted by them. Teams would have to somehow qualify for this tournament, e.g. by qualifying for NAQT nationals or some other standard could be used.

Case Western's tournament (and anybody else's tournament) doesn't qualify on either of these counts (i.e. it's associated with Case Western and any team can sign up). If the name is an issue we can think of a different name for the new tournament, e.g. "High School Midwest Quiz Bowl Championship" or something like that...
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Post by AV8R »

morpheus wrote: Also, I was a little disappointed with the Masonic questions last Saturday (even though I really don't have any reason to complain, since we qualified as a wild card by virtue of our high point total). I'm hoping that the state competition will feature some longer questions, although it probably won't. I'm really excited regardless, since this is the first time that Fremd has received the opportunity to go to Springfield in a long while.
My coach talked with the man running the masonic tournament for Illinios and the same question writer used at regionals will be used at the Masonic state tournament.
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Post by dtaylor4 »

AV8R wrote:My coach talked with the man running the masonic tournament for Illinios and the same question writer used at regionals will be used at the Masonic state tournament.
Why wouldn't they be?
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Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh »

Because the question writer for Masonic regionals turned quizbowl into a large scale episode of 'Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego?'.
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Post by dtaylor4 »

I know that, but teams who didn't qualify would complain about the lack of consistency
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Post by potato0328 »

dageneral, i think i speak for everyone from the bloodbath regional (as its known around here) when i say that it's not just the non-qualifiers complaining. it's hard enough to play in a regional loaded with 4 of the top 5 teams in the state without having very... abnormal question writing. (and for the record, dageneral, our team DID qualify for state).
directly from Fremd High School...
Tegan
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Post by Tegan »

Hey Illinois folks,

If the discussion is going to be strictly Illinois, we should jump back to the Illinois 04-05 thread...keep this thread relegated to jumping down the throats of Hoosiers and other local states who can't pay their college basketball players enough money to win.
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pblessman
Tidus
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Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2003 10:38 am
Location: Culver, Indiana

Best from IL, MI, IN, OH

Post by pblessman »

Thanks, Tom! I guess this saves me my post about "Who is the best from IL, MI, IN, OH in staying on-topic?" Not Flatlanders, apparently (as Cheeseheads would say... I guess Hoosiers would try to insult you by calling you "Blue Staters"?)
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Stained Diviner
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Post by Stained Diviner »

Blue Stater is a compliment, unlike FIB (which is what most Cheeseheads call us and which cannot be explained here fully).

And now, back to a word from the state that traded for Ron Artest...
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dtaylor4
Auron
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Post by dtaylor4 »

Mr. Reinstein, you seem to forget where he has been
Sebastian
Lulu
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Post by Sebastian »

First off, "Blue Stater" would be unfair to call Illinois, since the vast majority of the state (in terms of land) voted Republican. Only Chicago should be part of Canada, whereas the rest of Illinois should be "Jesusland."

Secondly, "Blue Stater" is an insult (but that's an issue for another topic).
"Why would you want to touch anything that's been in my mouth?"
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dtaylor4
Auron
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Post by dtaylor4 »

Yeah, let's get back to bashing Indiana and anyone from there (except Larry Bird)
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pblessman
Tidus
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Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2003 10:38 am
Location: Culver, Indiana

Now, now...

Post by pblessman »

Sebastian,

You really need to read this great new book that came out: "Dr. Strangelove or how I learned to love living in a blue state." Otherwise you'll end up giving away all major US metropolitan areas to the Canadians, ey?

Keep your stick on the ice!

Pblessman
Sebastian
Lulu
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Post by Sebastian »

I have nothing against Democrats (I'm actually more of a Libertarian than a hard-core Republican), but I do have a strong disdain for sore losers.
"Why would you want to touch anything that's been in my mouth?"
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