Illinois 05-06

dtaylor4 · Post by **dtaylor4** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:59 pm

James:

Who has St. Teresa played this year?

Summoned Skull · Post by **Summoned Skull** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:55 pm

yeah... good point.

They managed to go 7-1 at the varsity tournament this year, earning first place.

Even though the competition is not exactly "stiff" at that tournament, they still held their own against many larger schools.

Heilsmoochie · Post by **Heilsmoochie** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:22 am

Winnebago and Latin seem to be the top class A teams, far and away. I haven't played very widely at all, but from what I've seen IVC, Peoria Heights, and Elmwood are among the better teams in the state that I have seen. I would also go on to assume that Lisle Sr., Byron, Fairfield, and Riverton are all very good as they have returning all-state players on traditionally well run teams. There are bound to be surprises later in the season, and other teams I probably don't even know about, but this is my short list to the extent of my limited knowledge.

dtaylor4 · Post by **dtaylor4** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:28 am

I've seen Riverton play, this is a down year for them. St. Teresa lost some good players to graduation, but I wouldn't be surprised if they claw back to Peoria.

Irreligion in Bangladesh · Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:58 am

GreyGhost06 wrote:Styxman. After Winnebago, who would be your top ten class A teams this year? since Winnebago is head and shoulders above the rest, just wondering? Anyone else feel free to comment as well.

The problem with Class A Scholastic Bowl is this...in an entirely stereotypical mindset, given that the stereotypical team does not have a top-caliber player such as Ben Weiss or myself at present, or Kelly Tourdot, Jim Davis, etc. of old...a stereotypical Class A team does not have the depth of a Class AA school - there are simply more students at AA schools, which afford them the increased chance of finding players interested in the game, and thusly the increased chance of finding players that are naturally good, interested in studying, or both.

As it stands, there are not that many Class A schools that I've seen compete, because they do not have the student base to get interest going to compete in tournaments outside of State Series, Kickoff, or Conference. Because of this, I can't name a top 10 ranking of Class A teams - I don't know ten good teams.

Anyways, I'll give it a shot with what I know.

1. Latin is Latin. Nothing will change this, and if it weren't for the fact that Bago's played more games than 75% of the schools in the state will play in an entire year, they would be tenth as opposed to us. They are, in fact, my top Class A team. They'll be number one until someone can beat them, and I'm hoping it's me.

2. Winnebago (and we're not head and shoulders above everyone else, by any means). Sadly, there's only so much I can do by myself. Against Class A teams, it's not generally a problem - they don't have the depth required to get bonus points on any random tossup they'll get.

3. Peoria Heights. Dylan Troxel could pull off some pretty good games at State Series, he's basically a Class A man's Hunter Fast when it comes to S.S.

4. St. Teresa. I haven't heard anything past what you guys have told me, but this sounds about right considering their past and their current status.

5. Fairfield. They've done well this year also, from what I've heard.

Lisle, IVC, Byron, and Elmwood are probably up highly as well, but I haven't seen any of them play (except Byron...and apparently they didn't want to win the only game I've played against them this year)

The problem is that Winnebago is the one of the few Class A teams that go to the powerhouse tournaments, and the only one that does well...and we haven't beaten the top teams, anyway. Here's an interesting statistic: in tournaments where more than one of the top 5 schools from the Chicago area competed (NT, WN, Loyola, Fenwick, Fremd), only Winnebago has cracked the top 4, and we haven't beaten any of those teams to get there. Include the next 5 teams (Maine East, Deerfield, IMSA, Maine South, and Wheaton-Warrenville South), and the list increases by one. Byron placed fouth in two tournaments, Kaneland (where Maine South placed in the consolation bracket, and Wheaton North took second), and Boylan (where Maine East and IMSA took 2nd and 3rd.), two tournaments that, had a third high AA team also competed, they would not have placed as highly.

If Fairfield, Peoria Heights, and Decatur St. Teresa would play in tournaments up here, it might be different. However, the geography of our state does not allow this.

Also, I swear I'm almost done with the constantly long midnight posts.

dtaylor4 · Post by **dtaylor4** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:17 am

Most Class A teams down here haven't travelled that far, and the past few years the only good teams they saw were myself, john smillie and Bloomington. It's sad whenthe final score of a game at ihsa state looks like an eastern conference nba game (St. T def. Riverdale 96-82 round 3 last year). Every Class AA score beat this. I understand that Class A has a smaller talent pool, but this still shouldn't be happening.

To add to the list of great class A players: Mike Pyle, a literal one-man team even with five at the table.

Irreligion in Bangladesh · Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:33 am

DaGeneral wrote:Most Class A teams down here haven't travelled that far, and the past few years the only good teams they saw were myself, john smillie and Bloomington. It's sad whenthe final score of a game at ihsa state looks like an eastern conference nba game (St. T def. Riverdale 96-82 round 3 last year). Every Class AA score beat this. I understand that Class A has a smaller talent pool, but this still shouldn't be happening.

To add to the list of great class A players: Mike Pyle, a literal one-man team even with five at the table.

Yeah, State last year was something to be suffered through. At least Carbondale did something with the berth it earned through you... 0-3's respectable when it requires 250 against WN, 300 against Bilow's Deerfield, and 200 against Fenwick after those two losses.

Imagine me, watching Woodstock Marian fail to top 125 in three matches, playing against Latin (understandable), Alton Marquette (who?) and Toledo Cumberland (EXCUSE ME?). On 5 occasions out of 28, a team did not top 60/900. 11 didn't top 100. To put it eloquently, Class A sucks.

dtaylor4 · Post by **dtaylor4** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:24 am

When I went to state, I lost to Amy Minas by 60, watched Auburn (with two all-staters) light me up for 400 (my team didn't score until tossup 11) and Stevenson, where Jordan beat me to all the lit (not to detract from him, I would argue that he was better than me at it). My senior year, A I beat Fenwick although it was at Richards B I lost to WN on lit that turned out to be a buzzer race (sugar plums!), but never got to play Deerfield, even though I did get to lose to Bilow 9-6. I will never forget the four-hour drive back to Decatur after that fateful day.

Tegan · Post by **Tegan** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:37 pm

Every year, I try to make an honest attempt to pick the 8 teams that go down state by picking the top 2 in every sectional. With Class AA, because I know the teams better, my predoction rate over the past 4 years has been 29/32. That is, the team I pick as #1 or #2 has won the sectional that many times.

In Class A, since I don't know the teams as well, I review tournament performance, and talk to some coaches who see those teams. Despite that, I'm only 9 for 32 (and three of those picks are Latin, so that's like predicting the sun will rise). It seems that performance throughout the year is not as bonafide a predictor in Class A for some reason....perhaps there is a bigger percentage of good teams that don't particiapte much until the state series.

The questions are a whole other issue. Years ago, the IHSA received numerous letters, (mostly from Area Code 217 and 309), claiming the questions were too hard (despite the fact that Class AA winners were averaging right around 200 points, which while not anything to cheer about taint bad either in this format). One suggestion brought up was using separate questions for Class A and Class AA. That brought down the thunder and lightning from the Class A reps on the Advisory Committee because that amounted to saying that "Class A schools were dumb". Their solution was to write easier questions for everyone, which they thought would be fair (not realizing that it would be unfair to the best teams in the state to take away their advantage for actually knowing more). History has born out that, at State, the Class A schools score notably lower than Class AA. For 2004-05 State:

Class AA winner's average score:266.14
Class A winner's average score:193.86
Class A winner's average score, less Latin School:161.7

Class AA average team score:226.36
Class A average team score: 138.46
Class A average team score, less Latin School: 115.83!! (out of 900 possible points!)....

Every year I hear the same thing from the coaches: it's not that downstate schools aren't trying hard, and shame on anyone who wants to give the Class A schools "easier" questions. Its that the questions are too tough, and despite the data showing that Class AA schools are doing fine, we want to drag the AA schools backwards with us so as to appear equal. They want to go back to the era of questions like "Name the five fingers" as a bonus.....in other words, let's remove the actual knowledge component, and let's turn it all back into a buzzer race.

The interesting thing is, if you look at sports and compare scores between Class A and AA teams, they are really not that different (Class A golf scores are not noticably higher than Class AA schools playing the same course....Class A cross country times on the same course are not noticably slower). But in scholastic bowl.....not the case!

Some people think "if downstate schools only played more upstate schools, they would improve". That would be true if the mindset was "let's get better!" (just the vibe you get from Carbondale, Winnebago, D Mac, etc, which is why these teams are successful). Otherwise, based on my state experiences, they get turned off and blame the fact that every upstate school has built in advantages, which is not always the case.

I'm sorry to sound like I am painting with a broad brush, because there are enough AA schools and upstate schools that would want to ease up, and there are plenty of A schools and downstate schools that want a challenge, but it is frustrating when you try to push something forward, and you have a lot of people trying to pull backwards for the wrong reasons.

Happy Hanukkah, Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, and may you all receive a brand new shiny lockout system! Peace!

GreyGhost06 · Post by **GreyGhost06** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:39 pm

Styx, about Peoria Heights. I'm not sure their ranking as third in the state is quite fair. I don't even know if they are the best team in the Peoria Area. I watched them play IVC three times so far. They got blown out twice, and eeked out a win in another. Dylan is good, but he is all they have. If he has an off match, or if someone beats him to the buzzer, then they have trouble scoring.

Heilsmoochie · Post by **Heilsmoochie** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:56 pm

Brett is right about Peoria Heights for the most part. If I don't have a good match the team has a lot of trouble scoring, and IVC should definately be right with us in rankings as far as I'm concerned at this point.

The other side is that our returning number two scorer has been ineligable all season thus far (which won't be the case next semester). The thing about our team is that we all for the most part know the same stuff, but I'm much faster. When I have an off match they lose momentum and aren't used to having to be fast on the buzzers and pick up for me. Our number two guy is different as his knowledge generally complements mine, so when I have a down match he usually picks up the slack. Our math guy hasn't done much yet, but he's only played in the past two tournaments with us, one of which had some pretty terrible math questions(Wiley could vouch for me on River City's math quality). If we brought all of these elements together we would be a much better team, but Brett definately has a point. I think IVC should be right with us at least.

dtaylor4 · Post by **dtaylor4** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:27 am

Egan, when talking about the mindset for schools down here: Most of the current and former players that i am in contact with, when I ask them about practice, paint a picture vastly different from mine. In one case, a team actually played cards on a regular basis during practice. I hope this isn't the norm, but who knows.

TeachMe · Post by **TeachMe** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:12 am

I grew up in a very small town in northern Illinois, and played on my high school's scholastic bowl team in the mid 1980s. We practiced one time per week, and were quite serious about it. Nonetheless, we would have had our _____es handed to us if we went up against the AA teams mentioned on this discussion board. Our school offered no A.P. classes at all, so the amount of information that one would have to learn outside of class would have been tremendous. Physics was offered on an every-other-year basis just to get enough enrollment to run the class.

I suspect things are not all that different now. While it is not impossible for class A teams to compete, it is much more difficult just considering the high school course offerings that are available when enrollments are very small.

Heilsmoochie · Post by **Heilsmoochie** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:43 pm

Peoria Heights is in a similar situation. We offer no AP classes at all, and physics and chem II alternate every other year because we don't have enough students. We have an enrollment of around 240, and 37% of those students come from homes at or below the poverty line, so there's not a whole lot of interest in coming to school in many cases, let alone learning. We can thank Peoria and it's rotting core for that. A lot of schools around here are in similar situations, at least as far as courses go. This is probably one more reason for the lack of depth in class A. Many small schools can't support AP courses, and teach other "staples" every other year.

We (and many other schools) try not to let this get to us. We still work to get good, but we aren't crushed if a big/private/money school beats us because of the inherent advantages they have. On the other hand, we thoroughly enjoy beating them and work hard to do so because they don't have much of an excuse to lose to us. The two advantages we have are a good, experienced coach, and we're small enough to go through our school with a fine-tooth comb to find all the students that might have potential in scholastic bowl. It should not necessarily be a matter of course for class A schools to be among the best in either class, but it can happen with a relatively large influx of talent and a lot of hard work.

I, like many of you on here, look down somewhat at the schools that don't try hard, or want to "dumb down" the questions because they're just too hard. Just because you're at a disadvantage is no reason not to put forth an effort or be intiminated by larger schools. It doesn't give you an excuse to screw around the entire practice and then shrug off loses because you don't have all the resources 'those' schools have. I've seen it a lot around here and it's thouroughly dissapointing.

dtaylor4 · Post by **dtaylor4** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:55 pm

My school has an enrollment of abou 1400, but from last count, about 50-60% are at or below poverty. We do get students with a ton of potential, but we do have one of the best band programs in the state, and the others become athletes. In terms of AP, we have Euro History, US History, Calc AB, and Psych.

We did get beat by the bigger schools, but we didn't care. We always took fun in beating the local catholic high school. They had a better variety of classes to take that could help them get better, and we still beat them soundly.

Hard work separates teams more than enrollment. Yeah, bigger schools could pull more students that could work hard, but that can be used by smaller schools as motivation. Sure, I had fun beating up on smaller schools, but it got repetitive.

Tegan · Post by **Tegan** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:05 pm

DaGeneral wrote:Hard work separates teams more than enrollment.

I'll agree, up to the extent (and I'm sure you agree) that a larger school just has a greater number of talented individual to draw from....not to say a smller school can't beat a bigger school.

But sadly, over the past three years, the state questions have:
A. In some cases gone toward the uber obscure, meaning the question is a throw away because even the best teams can't answer it.
B. Become a buzzer race, negating the harder working team's hard work, and turning it into a fastest finger derby.

In short: the best teams no longer make it through to state. True, because of the geographic representation, the final 8 are rarely the best 8 to begin with, but now you can't even be sure that the best team is going to win the sectional or regional.

With the coming of subsectionals this year, the issue of local (not statewide) geography becomes even bigger. If the better teams in a sectional are grouped very close together, some won't even get a chance to see the sectional, let alone have a shot at state. Interestingly, if we had fewer teams competing, we could dump the subsectional idea.

dtaylor4 · Post by **dtaylor4** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:13 pm

Egan, if the best eight teams always made it to state, fewer teams would compete. I do agree that the questions have become obscure. I would attack the question writers, but I can't since I don't know who does. As for Masonic, the people who wrote last year's questions need to be smacked around a bit. I say once NAQT starts writing more questions for us, we get them to write questions for BOTH state series.

Summoned Skull · Post by **Summoned Skull** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:48 pm

DaGeneral wrote: We always took fun in beating the local catholic high school.

You seemed to enjoy routing us as well.

Though I have to admit, beating Macarthur for the first time ever this year was still not nearly as satisfying as beating "the local catholic high school" 233-117.

Captain Sinico · Post by **Captain Sinico** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:12 pm

While excuses are fine, remember always that anyone making an excuse is, by definition, a loser. Don't explain your losses; hate them and avoid them.
I, for one, always found that a preponderance of the questions that I got, I got on the basis of information that I learned outside of class. Outside study is at once absolutely crucial for success, and not so rigorous as it's made out to be. Thus, while it would be folly to deny that some schools have advantages, it would be equally foolish to not acknowledge that they can be overcome even in ordinary circumstances. This especially evident as:

they are overcome, frequently and
among "advantaged" schools, some are systematically better than others at quizbowl; in fact, some are consistently much better than others.

These should give some indication of the relative importance of inherent advantages and other factors.

Good luck to anyone willing to work,
MaS

STPickrell · Post by **STPickrell** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:57 pm

The teams that work harder will always do better. If Latin will win 95% of the time in Group A on good questions, and 85% of the time on bad questions, what, exactly, has been gained by having bad questions? (Even bad questions won't trip up a really well-coached team for that long; a good coach can "coach to the questions.")

Sports analogies may not work among hardened quizbowl pros, but have they been tried among the schools that call for "equalization?" I'm all for using them if they help schools drop excuses and work for questions that are a fairer test of knowledge. Then again, the IHSA thinks in terms of sports and competition. So might this be the language to use?

I remember someone on this thread saying Whitney Young usually makes a quick exit at Sectionals. Aren't they the Chicago equivalent of Thomas Jefferson and Maggie Walker?

Also, are Sections and Regions the same for every sport? How many tems are we expecting at these Subsectionals? Do Conferences have any meaning whatsoever or are they merely informal associations of schools? I'll gladly teach VHSL 101 to anyone who really wants to know. :P

Good luck to all Illinois teams as the season gets underway in earnest. Thanks for the name of the activity, too. :-)

dtaylor4 · Post by **dtaylor4** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 12:18 am

Sectionals vary drastically. There are two sectionals from I-80 on down. This ensures a balanced number of teams in each sectional (32 is optimum). When I played, there were teams in our athletic conference (Bloomington, Normal West) that aren't even in our sectional. Of course, with the formula for seeding in each sectional, not participating in athletic conference competitions (in our case, just a round-robin tournament where if you're lucky half the teams show up) hurts a lot.

Whitney Young? Ha. IMSA has won about half of the state championships, and two AA schools south of I-80 have won (Quincy and Richwoods).

First Chairman · Post by **First Chairman** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 12:51 am

Whitney Young puts much more effort in Decathlon, where they know the scholarship money is anyway. :)

Tegan · Post by **Tegan** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 1:01 pm

StPickrell wrote: I remember someone on this thread saying Whitney Young usually makes a quick exit at Sectionals. Aren't they the Chicago equivalent of Thomas Jefferson and Maggie Walker?

Having seen TJ and MW, I would definitely not put Whitney Young up in their class. Whitney Young is one of a few magnet schools, and while it used to be considered "the best", it no longer carries that as an academic distinction. I think Northside College Prep is considered the new flagship public school in Chicago (but no one musters the troops for A.D. like Whitney Young!)

But this just further proves: talent will not beat hard work. Talent plus hard work is pretty tough to beat (I think TJ proved that beyond a doubt last year), but without the hard work, you won't win much.

I will say this (Coach Laird, I apologize for the flashbacks): a few years ago, my Maine South team faced a far superior Loyola squad and beat them in the Regionals. Did my team work hard that year? Yes. So did Loyola. Did we have talent? Yes. So did Loyola. Loyola was more experienced, and had played a tougher schedule. Why did we win? I think it had a lot to do with the questions not being particularly tough, and in a small number of cases were fortunte to have a few questions come up that we had in practice that week. Loyola, despite having not even advanced to Illinois' top 32, went to the Iowa NAQT state championship and beat every Iowa team there.

The point is: I think when you reduce the questions to being buzzer races, you hamstring better team by removing the advantage they hav of more obscure knowledge. If you keep getting questions like "Who is buried in Grant's Tomb?" then it takes away from being able to answer the questions earlier if you knew the architect, exact location, burial dates etc; but a person on the other team who got that question in Trivial Pursuit last week is more likely to be faster. I'm not saying that the lowliest of the lowly will have a shot at beating the #1 team, but the #10 team might have a chance of beting the #1 team.

Siverus Snape · Post by **Siverus Snape** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 9:02 pm

Class A teams only hurt themselves when they going to a match against a Class AA team thinking about the unfair advantage of the other time. In my experience, at times when I let myself think too much about any deficit against any team, my reflexes are always slower, which only benefits the other team.

Isn't this subject a little bit off topic anyway?

mlaird · Post by **mlaird** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 3:14 pm

SIVster716 wrote:Isn't this subject a little bit off topic anyway?

There is no such thing in the Illinois Threads!

Siverus Snape · Post by **Siverus Snape** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:14 pm

Point taken. It would indeed be unwieldy to make a new thread about every single little desultory topic. My bad.

Irreligion in Bangladesh · Fri Dec 30, 2005 2:29 am

No no, Siva, not just that, but look over last year's thread. We ran off on so many tangents, most players from out of state took to hating us for some renegade players actually starting threads about the tangents.

Not that that's their biggest gripe with us.

Captain Sinico · Post by **Captain Sinico** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 6:32 am

The thing is, though, it's actually not off-topic as such because the issues are Illinois ones (though not uniquely Illinois ones; the issues could and may support their own topic later.)

Your friendly neighborhood moderator,
MaS

Trevkeeper · Post by **Trevkeeper** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 11:46 pm

In attempt to jumpstart a little conversation...

What is the speculation for Team Illinois?

I'll throw a couple names out there that will try out/make it: Kerr, Powers, Fischer, Beata...

Other names I can think of include Dylan Troxel, Gauthier, Justin Stoncius, McKenna/Kragh, perhaps someone from Bloomington. Am I missing any big-name player (Especially from Central/Southern Illinois)? It's quite possible, I always do that.

On another note: has anyone noticed any players who have played extraordinarily well, but weren't that well hyped going into the season? I.e., discount any of the names mentioned above.

Irreligion in Bangladesh · Wed Jan 04, 2006 9:06 am

The 6 it's looked like to me have been Tyler, Colleen, myself, Alex, Greg, and either Matt or Katie from Loyola, depending on who has the better tryout. I know it's VERY devoid of central and southern players (being half Chicago and half Northern Illinois would do that), but no one else that I've seen really stepped up as worthy of that sort of high ranking. Bloomington is an amazing team, but no single one of their players is top 6, in my opinion. Justin's probably got a chance to make it in front of Greg for the math spot, but Greg's already got a pretty good head start on him based on how they've played so far. (I'd personally rather have Greg, because then he gets the experience for the next two years, when he'd be a shoo-in for the team after the 06 kids graduate.)

Tegan · Post by **Tegan** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:27 pm

I'm not anyone's parents, and I'm not telling anybody what to do.....

BUT......

I'm throwing out a suggestion to be cautious about speculating on Team Illinois. There are numerous factors that are going to be examined in selecting a team, including area of specialty, thus there is no guarantee....as a matter of fact it is extremely likely that the top 6 players in the state will not be picked.

Just as an example: If there were a player who was great in a single topic (like social studies), but that was it.....and even if they wracked up every single social studies toss-up they ever heard......a plyer with a bit less social studies ability, but was fluent in a foreign language or was a whiz at art would likely be taken ahead of the first player.

There has always been a movement toward balance in terms of covering certain areas, based on the experience of the coaching staff.....thus....you could have 400 toss-ups this year, but of all of those toss-ups are in one area (say, social studies), or in very specific areas (South American geography coupled with World War II history, and such)......AND those toss-ups tend to be more the short, quick "fast buzz" types without any experience in other question formats, that is no guarantee ven with a decent tryout that this hypothetical player makes the team. Every year, there are at least one or two players that make the team as specialists and were not on the "pick-to-click" list of many pundits.

To the point: while there are generally one or two "generalists"......the other players on the team are often difficult to predict in advance. As an example, I seem to remember that someone named Abrams from Hoffman Estates was not on the "prediction" lists of many people....not only did he make the team, but he made the All-Tournament team at Panasonic to the shock of those who didn't know him.

While the selection is somewhat subjective....I can tell you that it has always been fair. After the tryout, I have been in meetings that have lasted over four hours trying to bring a list of 40 down to 6. The committee is really only interested in giving the team the best chance to win, and do not play favorites with picking certain people who are in "good favor" or from certain teams just because they are cute, likeable, or have kissed up to coaches/officials all year. Sadly it also means making compromises where a really great player may get left off because of the need to fill a hole in a particular subject area.

Frankly, I always walk away feeling bad, because while we always have six great players on the team, there are two dozen great players that don't.

I'm just saying: don't be shocked/hurt/upset/vengeful if things don't go according to chalk predictions (which I guess for life in general). There was a player once who got more than a little upset when he was left off the team, mainly for the aforementioend reasons.

mrs. dalloway · Post by **mrs. dalloway** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 2:06 pm

Thanks for placing me in the top 6, guys, but I wasn't actually planning to try out this year...good luck to those of you who are, though.

And (while recognizing the value of Mr. Egan's warning against predictions), I will dispute the assertion that Bloomington has no stand-out players. Kristina Warren could very well be a contender, given that she's strong in lit, math, and possibly some other areas. And if I recall correctly, math isn't as important in Panasonic as in IHSA, so that alone might not earn Greg or Justin spots on the team.

Tegan · Post by **Tegan** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 4:20 pm

mrs. dalloway wrote:Thanks for placing me in the top 6, guys, but I wasn't actually planning to try out this year...good luck to those of you who are, though.
And (while recognizing the value of Mr. Egan's warning against predictions), I will dispute the assertion that Bloomington has no stand-out players. Kristina Warren could very well be a contender, given that she's strong in lit, math, and possibly some other areas. And if I recall correctly, math isn't as important in Panasonic as in IHSA, so that alone might not earn Greg or Justin spots on the team.

Again, not that I am judge, jury and executioner (I'm none of these, it's not my job...that power belongs to the board moderators), but there's a difference between saying "this player is a worthy candidate (and I agree that Bloomington has some worthy players), and saying "this is a team"....not that there's anything wrong with either.....in the past, naming a team has sometimes hurt others unintentionally (I'm not trying to be syrupy, but.....) if players "X" and "Y" make the team, and player "X" filed a prediction saying player "Z" should make the team, but didn't mention player "Y", it can lead to hurt feelings, an altered team dynamic, etc.

As for math......math does play a role at Panasonic, and it is debatable as to how "big" it actually is. IMO, its role at Panasonic is equal to or just slightly lower than in IHSA format. The problems are ususally more complex (hence the use of calculators and the 60 second time limit).

Trevkeeper · Post by **Trevkeeper** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:12 pm

Really, I was just trying to jumpstart a little conversation. Us Illinoisans wouldn't be notorious without it!

So, uh...are the sectionals being adjusted at all this year (are they ever?)?

dtaylor4 · Post by **dtaylor4** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:18 pm

Math at Panasonic was somewhat harder than "Illinois" math, but IIRC, calculators were rarely used except on computational science. There is a lot more higher-level math down there, which I liked. We had several good math people (pretty much everyone on the team were good math people except jordan).

As for the team this year, the only person I would bank on would be Tyler. I had the honor of playing with him last year, and he proved to be valuable (as was everyone). I won't go into too much, but I will respond to the argument about geography.

It's not surprising that most players would come from northern Illinois and the 'burbs, that's where the VAST majority of good teams are (how many teams in the top tier are below I-80?). South of there, this year Bloomington and Carbondale have emerged as forces to be reckoned with. The key is that the six best players might not make the team. The board chooses the six players that make up the best team we can send. Last year, Devin Patel was the best math person in the state, but didn't make the team for some reason. Look at the finals of last year's Solo. The only players in the finals who made the team were me, Mike, and Cliff. That left five good individuals eligible who didn't make it. That's not to say they weren't good, but as Egan stated, the board chooses the team that they feel has the best chance to win. As Herman Edwards says, you play to win the game, and the board's objective is to give the team, whoever is/isn't on it, the best chance to win.

Tegan · Post by **Tegan** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:33 am

Just to reiterate what General Taylor brought up: no one "thing" makes or breaks a worthy candidate from the team. A lot of people think that making the finals of the Schobo Solo has got to get you "in". It certainly doesn't hurt, but it isn't a lock (for the record, Dr. Kerr was not at the Solo, and I don't think anyone is thinking that he is "out"). Some people think that being a returning "All-State" player is the #1 thing. It isn't. Even the tryout itself is but one single thing that is looked at. Overall, the Board looks at your experience, your background, your level of play, your consistency, how well you get along with other people (especially with limited practice, this can be an issue to build team cohesiveness), what level of dedication have you shown?, what have you done to show willingness to improve?, are you prejudiced against Kentuckians?, what areas do you specialize in?, have you demonstrated a perchance in areas that pop up in Panasonic type questions? have you shown an ability to know some really obscure answers?..... the list goes on. It is subjective....there is no "points" system....this is why we have a board of selectors (which for the record is not made up strictly of subrubanites) to go back and forth and weigh the various players. And as I said, there will be some great, highly talented players who will not make the team.

There's no harm in speculating.....I just brought this up because, as I mentioned earlier, there was a player years ago who had a great try out, and won the social studies round, and walked out thinking he was a shoe in, and I think a lot of people around him convinced him that he had made it. While he was one of the very last people eliminated, he became vocally furious when he was left off the team, and was convinced that the decision was prejudcial. It truly was not. I really think that especially since we have adopted this format of application and tryout, Illinois has been able to more consistently field a very competitive team at Panasonic.

David Riley · Post by **David Riley** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:30 am

As Head Coach of Team Illinois, I will reiterate what has been said by Messrs. Egan and Taylor (and I do mean messers!)

I will add that we are limited by Panasonic rules to six players. Only four can play at a time, and since the arts are considered a major subject at Panasonic (along with language arts, math, science, and social studies) we look for a combination of subject specialists and generalists. No one is a shoe-in, and again, the committee has often spent several hours deliberating over various candidates.

Now that that's been said, I have only received FOUR nominations thus far! Tempis fugit! Bug your coaches! The deadline looms large, and since there is another step to the process, I need these forms a.s.a.p.

And Mr. Egan is right, anti-Kentuckians need not apply (just kidding).

GreyGhost06 · Post by **GreyGhost06** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:30 pm

Don't forget Jordan Wiley from Morton for Team Illinois. Smilie made it last year, and Wiley probably picked up a few things. Greg Boubakis from Normal West is a possibility. Other than that, Mike Hahn from IVC might have an outside shot, but I doubt he will try out, and Alex Davis from Elmwood might try out.

Trevkeeper · Post by **Trevkeeper** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:32 pm

Results from Wheaton North:

1. Fenwick A
2. Wheaton North A
3. New Trier
4. Maine South A

The questions got a lot harder after the quarterfinals. We scored about 270 in the quarterfinals, and in the next two we scored 62 and 97 (including a win with the 97 score).

We had an awesome, tight match with Maine South (the first time we have played them this year). The final score was 97-91, and no one got the last tossup right. A rather low scoring affair. Also, after we negged on tossups 18 and 19 (I should have waited, and then I would have gotten Brett Ashley...one of my more stupid buzzes of the day), I thought we would lose. We were able to salvage some bonus points though, so that was good. Maine South was very good, and we matched up well.

The questions varied too much in length. Sometimes they'd be one line, sometimes they'd be pyramidical--that makes it a lot harder for determining when to buzz. Maybe it's just me, but that was my opinion.

On a personal note, I am glad it's over -- definitely the worst I've ever played in a tournament. But we did well, so all is fine and dandy.

Overall, it was a great tournament. Thanks to the folks at Wheaton North.

Tegan · Post by **Tegan** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:55 pm

Trevkeeper wrote: We had an awesome, tight match with Maine South (the first time we have played them this year).

It was a good match, and I offer great thanks to the sportsmanship displayed by the victorious coach and team. For the record, Fenwick did hold on to edge Wheaton North for the championship.

There is a troubling issue which I inadvertantly created which I feel compelled to bring up publicly:

In the morning, Maine South was left off the schedule (I believe there were other teams that had that happen. We were the first of these teams to arrive, and were given the spots of the Wheaton North "C" and "D" teams. I never told the hosts, but I followed what I thought would be standard procedure and put my "A" team in the "C" slot and "B" team in the "D" slot.

What I did not realize until after lunch was that in one of the later revised schedules, the hosts had flip-flopped my "A" and "B" teams. This was an accident on my part, and had no strategic benefit whatsoever (the choice was between a pool which included Stevenson, Marist A, Notre Dame, and Winnebago or Fenwick A, St. Ignatius, Latin, and Glenbard South which placed in the top 4 last year)--and I had no idea Winnebago would be so shorthanded that day until I arrived for the match.

Thus, I apologize to all the teams who thought they were playing a "B" team, but instead went up against an "A" team which happened to have a great day and win the sole wildcard. I have made it a matter of public record that I realy don't like programs who shuffle personnel based on "favorable schedules," and thus want to make sure this is a public matter, and let people make up their own minds on the subject.

mlaird · Post by **mlaird** » Sun Jan 08, 2006 1:28 am

Results from Auburn F/S:

1.) Auburn 'A'
2.) Loyola 'A'
3.) Maine East
4.) Sterling 'A'
Consolation: Carmel 'B'

The questions were house written, and saw a lot of improvement near the end of the tournament. Some of them could have used a little bit more editing, due to quite a few tossups that took a twist at the end and accounted for quite a few early negs. Questions aside, it was a very well run tourney.

There was something that did come up in this tournament that I know was not entirely the fault of the TDs, since PLEASE MAKE FUN OF ME BECAUSE I SPEAK NEITHER LATIN NOR ENGLISH at this tournament were seperate from the tossups, but I have noticed this as an increasing trend at tournaments. Would people stop putting questions/PLEASE MAKE FUN OF ME BECAUSE I SPEAK NEITHER LATIN NOR ENGLISH about Pop Culture or other such crude matters of the lower classes as the last question in the round? Reaching singularity with a question about the girls who starred in The Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants just feels so empty. Likewise, in the final match of the tournament, having the opponent being up by 11 points going into the penultimate bonus, and being handed the match with a Harry Potter bonus is simply pride obliterating. Just a thought. A match should not be decided before the question is even read.

Summoned Skull · Post by **Summoned Skull** » Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:59 am

Results from Big 12:

Bloomington
Normal West
Lincoln
Eisenhower

Only six teams showed for the tourney, Bloomington pretty much dominated.

mrs. dalloway · Post by **mrs. dalloway** » Sun Jan 08, 2006 12:52 pm

Matt--I noticed the same problem with the PLEASE MAKE FUN OF ME BECAUSE I SPEAK NEITHER LATIN NOR ENGLISH at our tournament; we did try to make sure that the last four or five tossups were serious and fairly hard to prevent such complaints, but didn't consider the bonus issue. Pop culture and youth lit can be somewhat fun when used sparingly, but I do feel Loyola's pain to have played a close and important match only to lose it on Harry Potter (especially when there had been about six HP questions already in the tournament--I'm a fan of the books, but there seriously was way too much Harry Potter).

What annoyed me about the whole day was that we team members did try to carefully proofread everything ahead of time, but a lot of mistakes (especially in math) were not changed or mysteriously were right and then got changed to the wrong thing (like that Panama hat tossup in the final afternoon round; it asked where Panama hats are made and had the answer as Panama, while when we'd proofread the questions just a day or two before, the answer had been Ecuador). And there were no replacement tossups (which you really need; everyone makes mistakes). I heard volunteer moderators and scorers grumbling that house-written questions just aren't going to cut it anymore if our tournament is to be credible. The overall harder caliber (since varsity players write them) supposedly gives the frosh-sophers a challenge, but when mixed with questions that ask you to complete the lyrics of "This Land is Your Land," it can become ridiculous. And the mixture of styles arising from six or seven people writing questions becomes annoying, too, rather than freshly diverse (questions like "What is Canada's longest river?" mixed with five or six-line pyramid lit questions).

I know I'm bashing my own tournament here...I guess I'm trying to show that we are cognizant of and just as irked by the problems with our tournament, and hopefully can try to fix them in the future.

Tegan · Post by **Tegan** » Sun Jan 08, 2006 1:38 pm

mrs. dalloway wrote:And the mixture of styles arising from six or seven people writing questions becomes annoying, too, rather than freshly diverse (questions like "What is Canada's longest river?" mixed with five or six-line pyramid lit questions).

As someone who has written questions for state and local tournaments, this is difficult. For the state tournament we had many writers (I think something like 11 writers one year), but I also served as the single editor. I found that I could rewrite a question, or send it back for rewriting, and it while there could still be errors, they were minimal, and the questions gained a cohesiveness. This is something you might think about: let one students act as an editor. If you set the question deadline early enough, the editor can note things like errors, questins that need to be rewritten, and can even notice more readily if a particular topic is coming up too often (as you noted with HP). This last part is very tough to do if you don't have a single editor to catch these things.

Wheaton North had a single writer, and problems like this came up (in one match, there was a single literature question, and one toss-up and one bonus on Latin translations...I like these kind of questions, but please don't put two of any one thing in a round).

I know I'm bashing my own tournament here...I guess I'm trying to show that we are cognizant of and just as irked by the problems with our tournament, and hopefully can try to fix them in the future.

This is all you can do......acknowledge the error(s), learn from the mistake, correct, and move on. The difference between good tournaments and terrible tournaments is that bad tournaments know they have problems and refuse to acknowledge them and improve. Years ago, the question writer for the Illinois tournament, IMO, wrote awful questions (like : name the 5 Great Lakes, name the first five presidents of the US); questions that had no place in a varsity touranment, let alone the state championship series. The problem was that people constanly complained by writing him letters, and he refused to make changes. Finally people started complaining to the state, and the IHSA got sick of the numerous complaint letters every year, and they dumped the question writer at the end of his contract.

And for the record, everything I've heard about the Knights Challenge has been good. My team has gone there for years, and we'll continue to go in the future.

Tegan · Post by **Tegan** » Sun Jan 08, 2006 1:39 pm

airmale007 wrote:Results from Big 12:

Bloomington
Normal West
Lincoln
Eisenhower

Only six teams showed for the tourney, Bloomington pretty much dominated.

Airmale:

Was this the Big 12 Conference Tournament? Was this the final end of the conference season thing? Only half the conference showed up? Please elaborate if you can.

dtaylor4 · Post by **dtaylor4** » Sun Jan 08, 2006 4:37 pm

I can fill in as I was a moderator:

This was the Big 12 Conference tournament, and unless something drastic changed, this is the only tournament associated with Big 12 (no league play)

Summoned Skull · Post by **Summoned Skull** » Sun Jan 08, 2006 6:10 pm

Tegan, the Big 12 actually consists of only 10 schools:

Bloomington,Champaign Central, Champaign Centennial, Danville, Decatur Eisenhower, Decatur MacArthur, Mattoon, Normal West, Normal Community, and Urbana.
(Originally there were twelve teams, but Stephen Decatur HS was consolidated into Eisenhower and MacArthur in 1999, and Rantoul dropped out because they were not able to be competitive)

Out of the ten, only Bloomington, Champaign Central, Eisenhower, MacArthur, Mattoon, Normal West, and Normal Community field scholastic bowl teams. Of those, Mattoon and MacArthur did not attend the tournament this year.
Thus, the tournament organizers allowed Lincoln to play to expand the field to six teams, even though they are not in our conference.

David Riley · Post by **David Riley** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:12 pm

Team Illinois update: After an initial slump, there are now 24 nominees for Team Illinois (and no, I won't post who they are until I have a final list). Thanks to everybody for their interest.

JWyPlatinum · Post by **JWyPlatinum** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:50 pm

Peoria Area League starts on Tuesday, but without Bloomington and Normal West, which makes it a dogfight between Heights and IVC and then Morton's thrown in there for good measure. Not much excitement, to be honest.

Summoned Skull · Post by **Summoned Skull** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:54 pm

Morton seemed very strong at the kickoff, why so pessimistic?

Why are Bloomington and Normal West not participating?

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