Illinois 05-06

Dormant threads from the high school sections are preserved here.
mlaird
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Post by mlaird »

Tegan wrote:Once upon a time, there was a great Loyola team, poised by many to finally make the return trip to state. There was also an upstart Maine South team...young, but having played a tough schedule, bettle tested.

Alas, the Loyola team failed in its quest....good enough to win the Iowa State Finals, they could not get passed the young Maine South team losing a narrow match in the Regional final.
Can we like, not tell this story ever again? It gives me night terrors.

It's also noteworthy to say that Loyola and Maine South have played more than once in the regionals, according to the IHSA's website, we have played them every year in regionals since 2003. We were supposed to have a shot at them this year if the IHSA had assigned by seedings, but instead they acquiesced to geography. They were also in our regional in 2002, but we didn't play them.
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Post by LadyInBlack »

The rivalry, Nick, is one of closeness. Akin to the manner in which our LA and NT are so close together as to see familiar faces at, oh, almost everywhere we go. Besides, our honorable coaches are pals; only fitting they hold a type of joust for pride's sake.

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Post by Heilsmoochie »

Masonic State Tournament at Springfield Southeast:

1. Fremd
2. Peoria Heights
3. Bloomington (w/o Hunter)
4. Elmwood
Consolation: Rockford Auburn

There were many an upset today, most notably Sterling's victory over Auburn in the first round (265-245, IIRC). Others include Elmwood over Springfield 140-60 in the first round and Elmwood over Hindsdale (I can't remember the score) in the second round to guarantee a top four spot.

Fremd just mauled everyone all day long. They defeated Alton, LaSalle-Peru, Elmwood and Peoria Heights 215-105 in the championship. Bloomington went all day without Hunter, which probably really hurt on the social studies questions that seem to be so prevalent in the Masonic tournaments. Even so, Bloomington beat Quincy and Normal West in the morning rounds, lost to the Heights in the semifinals, and beat Elmwood in the Third place match 165-85 I believe.

Congratulations to all teams, workers, and masons involved.
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Post by David Riley »

And special kudos to Dylan Troxel of Peoria Heights and Alex from Elmwood; if the matches I moderated was any indication, they played ver well today.

And special thanks to coach Larry Zobrist of Springfield Southeast for coordinating an excellent tournament!
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Post by dtaylor4 »

First, congrats to Fremd for repeating as Masonic State Champions and to all of the other teams that were able to qualify for State. Also, where was Hunter? There BETTER be a GOOD reason why he didn't make it to one of the state tournaments.
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Post by David Riley »

Hunter was at Science Olympiad.
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Post by Siverus Snape »

Masonic was an interesting experience.

Was anyone else rather bothered by the loud blowers in some of the rooms?
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Post by Hunterthegreat »

DaGeneral wrote:First, congrats to Fremd for repeating as Masonic State Champions and to all of the other teams that were able to qualify for State. Also, where was Hunter? There BETTER be a GOOD reason why he didn't make it to one of the state tournaments.
No offense, but you sound almost exactly like my mother did when I asked if I could go to Science Olympiad regionals (where our team got first place and I got a shiny first place medal in Rocks and Minerals) instead of the Scholastic Bowl competition. As for loud people, yeah, they can be really annoying. I remember a competition where there was a team that talked constantly during the toss-ups and it was really unnerving for me.
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Post by jpaint06 »

Less then a day until regionals baby! Can't wait.
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Post by Siverus Snape »

Hunterthegreat wrote: As for loud people, yeah, they can be really annoying. I remember a competition where there was a team that talked constantly during the toss-ups and it was really unnerving for me.
Hunter, I was referring to loud machines, not people. Haven't you ever seen one of those thin-ish, window-height deals that has a vent at the top that blows out hot or cold air depending on the thermostat? Even so, if one were to judge by the amount of hot air produced, I can think of quite a few people who would qualify as blowers.
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Post by Hunterthegreat »

SIVster716 wrote:
Hunterthegreat wrote: As for loud people, yeah, they can be really annoying. I remember a competition where there was a team that talked constantly during the toss-ups and it was really unnerving for me.
Hunter, I was referring to loud machines, not people. Haven't you ever seen one of those thin-ish, window-height deals that has a vent at the top that blows out hot or cold air depending on the thermostat? Even so, if one were to judge by the amount of hot air produced, I can think of quite a few people who would qualify as blowers.
Yeah, I apologize for not reading your comment well enough. There are a few places I've played where the heating system is really loud. I know U of I has them, and a few of the older high schools I've played in have them as well. I can't hear vocal tones very well (blasted iPod), so they're really annoying for me, but U of I has a really good sushi place at the food court, so it balances.
"Zwei Dinge sind unendlich, das Universum und die menschliche Dummheit. Aber beim das Universum bin ich mir nicht ganz sicher."
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Post by jpaint06 »

18 hours and counting...
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patjm6163
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Post by patjm6163 »

Trevkeeper wrote:What school are you from, Pat?
My sn is misleading as pat does not refer to my first name. It refers to my last name. My name is jay and i go to maine east. soph.
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Post by DigitalRosh »

patjm6163 wrote:
Trevkeeper wrote:What school are you from, Pat?
My sn is misleading as pat does not refer to my first name. It refers to my last name. My name is jay and i go to maine east. soph.
I think patjm may be a tad biased toward Maine East. It was a close match, but he was just showing his support for his school. Good match, though, didn't think Deerfield could pull it off. They grabbed a decisive tossup towards the end, and that was the end of that. Hard fought match by both sides.
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Post by jpaint06 »

3 hours and counting...
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Post by Siverus Snape »

Ha, Hunter, you might enjoy this article.

http://articles.news.aol.com/business/a ... 0000000001
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Post by Irving Washington »

Uh, yeah, so I guess we didn't win state. Little off on that one.
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Post by Trevkeeper »

SIVster716 wrote:Ha, Hunter, you might enjoy this article.

http://articles.news.aol.com/business/a ... 0000000001
Personally, I think this article is a better one. Look at the byline and you'll know why.

Also, I'm reporting that New Trier won their regional by defeating Loyola
321-235. Kudos to Loyola for scaring the crap out of me in the second half.

Also, looking at Scorezone, there don't seem to be too many upsets in AA, though some scores haven't come in yet. The most notable so far is Oak Park River Forest beating St. Ignatius, but I don't even know if that's a real upset. Also, Hersey beat Stevenson in the semis, but then lost to Fremd in the finals.
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Post by Bubiyuqn »

Now that regionals is over, is anyone changing their predictions for Sectionals?

Oh, and by the way, I think I cried a little on the inside when I read Rockford's scores. Actually, scratch that, I cried a little on the outside. And by a little, I mean profusely. And by profusely, I mean I'm still crying. But seriously, grats to Rockford (although I bet they were somehow disappointed with being just one point shy of 600).

Also, congratulations to everyone else who won at their regional (and in case anyone cares, yes, Carbondale did get some revenge and closure for losing the Masonic regional to Salem).

-JSto
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Regionals

Post by TeachMe »

Deerfield defeated Maine East in the final question of the match. It looked like both sides were not going to answer, and with a second left, our sophomore on the team rang in with the correct answer. It was one of the closest and most intense matches ever! The conference tournament also ended with the match decided by the final question.

Maine East did a great job hosting the tournament.
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Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh »

styxman wrote:There's really no hard choice in any sectional except for the obvious one. Every other sectional in AA has been decided already.

AA:
Bradley-Bour.
Fremd
Auburn
WN
Carbondale
Bloomington
1. Loyola 2. Fenwick 3. Maine South 4. St. Ignatius
Marist

A:
Winnebago
Litchfield
Decatur (Lutheran)
Rockridge
Fairfield
Latin
Peoria Heights
Carterville

(Picking Class A will never be easy.)
My previous posting of predictions. Just so I can efficiently make my remarks.

I missed 1 Class A team already - Carterville lost in their first match. Apart from that, my Class A listing is perfect so far. (My new prediction for that sectional is Columbia, and no one should give me any credit if I'm right. They're the only one to top 300 in a game tonight in that sectional, so it's not exactly a hard choice)

Class AA decided that I was overstepping my bounds by predicting the regionals of death, and made me wrong on 2 counts. However, the technicalities of my pick in that sectional remain: the winner of the NT regional will win the sectional...i.e. NT's my choice now.

On random notes, when was the last time the defending Class AA state champions didn't win a single game in State Series (and no, the forfeit doesn't count as a win in my book.) Kudos to...Naperville North for handing it to IMSA...Auburn for not playing Round 1 and putting up 750 on some poor team...New Trier for escaping with some air in their chest, it looks like...and finally, Goreville for absolutely laughing at me by beating my sectional pick, Carterville, 124-98 in the first round.

Congrats to all who advanced to Saturday's sectional!
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Post by jpaint06 »

It's funny looking at the A vs. AA scores, and makes you wonder what would have happened if we were still class A, because our scores compare pretty favorably, and CENTRAL freaking catholic was a 3 seed in the regional we would have been in. Oh well, we lost to Bloomington. They just were better, that simple. Although I would like to say our literature girl was sick today and wasn't at school, and I found those questions to be pretty poor- Just my opinion I guess. And the first two matches we played, I think the amount of non computational total math questions we had was like 7. That to me is absured, especially considering, math was something we were banking on. Oh well, everyone played their worst scholastic bowl of the year and we still fared pretty well. I'd like to say the MVP's of the tourney definately Greg Baboukis, Jordan Whiley, Jamal Smith and Kristina Warren though, all solid as usual, although Whiley seemed to struggle pretty bad in the championship against Bloomington and didn't seem to have much of a team.
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Post by JWyPlatinum »

As far as poor questions is concerned, I find it hard to use that label when Normal West and Morton combined for almost 600 points. Also, it's hard not to struggle when you're playing against the 2nd best team in state (1st in my opinion). Regardless, I hope the purple people-eaters finally get what they earned last year--a state title.[/quote]
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Post by Tegan »

styxman wrote: On random notes, when was the last time the defending Class AA state champions didn't win a single game in State Series
I think almost as compelling is: How can the team that went past Bloomington, Winnebago, New Trier, Loyola, etc just two weeks ago to win the NAQT State Title fail to grow a single win?
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Re: Regionals

Post by DigitalRosh »

TeachMe wrote:Deerfield defeated Maine East in the final question of the match. It looked like both sides were not going to answer, and with a second left, our sophomore on the team rang in with the correct answer. It was one of the closest and most intense matches ever! The conference tournament also ended with the match decided by the final question.

Maine East did a great job hosting the tournament.
I was merely a scorekeeper and even I was tense during that last tossup...
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Re: Regionals

Post by Tegan »

DigitalRosh wrote:I was merely a scorekeeper and even I was tense during that last tossup...
East was a great host...everything was on time, ready to go!

I didn't hear the last question of the finals, but I am grateful for all involved that it was not the last question of Round #1.

I feel bad for anyone who rang in with "carbon", and felt like they cost their team the match on that question.
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Re: Regionals

Post by DigitalRosh »

Tegan wrote:
DigitalRosh wrote:I was merely a scorekeeper and even I was tense during that last tossup...
East was a great host...everything was on time, ready to go!

I didn't hear the last question of the finals, but I am grateful for all involved that it was not the last question of Round #1.

I feel bad for anyone who rang in with "carbon", and felt like they cost their team the match on that question.
I believe the last question of the finals asked for the former name of the country of Djibouti. And yes, the carbon question could have thrown some off.
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Post by Belgarion89 »

I thought the questions were pretty good as a whole, although I was disapointed by the lack of constitution questions. They weren't needlessly obscure, and yet they also weren't all buzzer beaters. Looking forward to Sectionals this Saturday.
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Post by potato0328 »

I'm not sure how many people agree with me (judging by Mr. Reinstein's email, at least one person does), but I thought that yesterday's questions were some of the poorest that I have ever seen.
Once in a while at practice, our coach takes out the state series questions by the former question writer, and our whole team has a good laugh. However, last night was like a bad nightmare. Is it just me, or did yesterday's questions seem an awful lot like those written by the former state question writer?

P.S. My team did win its regional, so this is not sour grapes. I'm just hoping that the questions improve later in the series when the top-ranked teams collide.
directly from Fremd High School...
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Post by Tegan »

potato0328 wrote:Is it just me, or did yesterday's questions seem an awful lot like those written by the former state question writer?
When you say former question writer, do you mean from 4-5 years ago old, or from 6-10 years ago old?
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Post by potato0328 »

I can't exactly specify, sorry... I'm talking about the question writer who apparently upset the coaches so much that IHSA promised to never use him to write questions again, according to my coach.

Also, if someone wants more info about this topic, Mr. Reinstein did send an email to a number of coaches about the regional questions. He would probably do a much better job of explaining the matter.
directly from Fremd High School...
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Post by Trevkeeper »

I think an interesting experiment would be to look at the records of each team against the others in its sectional in the more bloodbath of sectionals (Ours, Fremd's, etc.). Well, perhaps it wouldn't make an interesting study, but I was curious about it. In most of the sectionals where there isn't a really obvious choice to win, are the head to head records of each team going to be approximately .500? Our regular season record, for example, against the teams in our sectional is 3-4, which is roughly .500. Would you expect most of the other teams in our sectional to be about the same? Just curious.
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Our sectional

Post by TeachMe »

Trevkeeper,

I'm convinced that anyone who makes it out of our sectional is so exhausted and battled drained, that winning state is unlikely! :>) I thought the questions were less than par. It seemed that some questions were such that a very early anticipation made sense, like the acupuncture question, yet one of my players rang in early in the last round with the music question regarding A. She said 440 Hz on an early buzz, which made sense, but the question veered off in a different direction. I fear we are spoiled with the pyramidal nature of NAQT. It seemed that many teams had trouble establishing a groove.
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Post by popculture »

I agree with those who believe the questions [edit: could've been improved]. Could we send out a survey at sectionals to see what the general mood is? (Though it would obviously be biased towards good teams)

My gripes: (that I remember after a 24-hour cool-down period)
One sentence questions.
Fitzwilliam Darcy and Raskolnikov should not be in the first clue. Ever.
The mistranslation of "Telemachus" as "Laertes." But anybody could make that mistake.
The seeming dearth of computation tossups (a fact that apparently lead to the demise of the Normal-U dynasty). I think there may have been only one comp. science TU (chemistry) all day
The matrices handout (What was that?!) Actually, that's not a gripe, that was just funny.


Not being a regional winner, these gripes could be called grapes. The questions didn't make a difference in the result-- they just made a frustrating expierience more frustrating. Believe me, the questions may have been a "bad nightmare," but New Trier getting 10 of the first 11 tossups (in, like, 15 seconds) is a lot worse. Then my VCR didn't tape "24."

I am currently on a window ledge.

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Post by Tegan »

Trevkeeper wrote:I think an interesting experiment would be to look at the records of each team against the others in its sectional in the more bloodbath of sectionals (Ours, Fremd's, etc.). Our regular season record, for example, against the teams in our sectional is 3-4, which is roughly .500. Would you expect most of the other teams in our sectional to be about the same? Just curious.
I would be agaisnt that:

Maine South (like New Trier, Loyola, etc) plays a tough schedule. I've had the chance to look back over the records, and only about 10-12 percent of the teams we play have losing records.

On the other hand, if you got to get some guarranteed local wins against some teams like Niles, Glenbrook, Maine West, among others, your local record looks swell. The only local teams we played this year were Loyola (1-1), New Trier (no comment), Maine West (1-0), Deerfield (0-1, loss at Wheaton North), and 0-2 to Maine East. In other words, we get penalized because we don't have some cream puffs to pat the stats against, while we played the #1, #2, #3, and #4 Regional Champions seeds, and one match against a team with a relatively poorer record.

I might as well go out and schedule 4-5 local teams we can beat, waltz in and claim an "in-sectional" record of 5-0. I think that would be ridiculous, even though I know a few teams that avoided local heavies to do just that.

At one time coaches had to record an "in sectional" record on the team report sheet, but it was clearly seen as being unfair. For example, what if Fremd had been in our Sectional?.....they might conceivably have posted a 0-0 in sectional record, while a team who went 7-2 or 6-3 could have claimed a superior performance. OR....what if Maine West and Niles West didn't forget to register? (New Trier can get another two wins)...or if Waukegan were in this sectional.....your 3-4 goes to 6-4....and if that drops Fenwick down a sectional south.....are you up to 6-3? Certainly a losing Sectional record was no predictor of your success. Having teams fail to register also complicates matters.

Let's look at it another way: say Maine East had been shifted one sectional west. They go in with a 0-0 local record, because it is an MSL dominated sectional, but Hersey is 8-2. Should Hersey who played comparable opponents but far fewer matches be automatically seeded higher, only because they have matches in hand vs. in-sectional teams? IMO, no...Maine East would deserve a higher seed because of all they accomplished.

Ask your coach about the time New Trier played in a North Suburban dominated sectional up in Zion-Benton....and got voted a low seed because "we've never seen New Trier play". I think they were later educated.
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Post by Bubiyuqn »

As far as regionals questions go, I'd have to agree that they were a little fast and rather jumbled. It seemed like one question would have a clue to be picked up instantly (like that Darcy one or the 5 sharps), and then the next question would either be really long or misleading (I buzzed in early on that 440Hz one and gave 440Hz, oops). I think it detracts from the general experience of the game when you're on the edge of your seat trying to be telepathically linked to the question writer. The one question on Gibbs free energy even went so far as to purposefully try to lure you away from the correct (albeit obvious) answer. There are an infinite number of substantial questions on Gibbs free energy that could have been used instead of just trying to trick us into thinking G isn't what is used to represent it.

Another one of the things that bugged me was the seemingly arbitrary use of computation questions in weird categories. They increased the number of comp. from 6 to 8 this year, because as I understood it, it was hard to write proper Chem/Physics without using computation. Yet there such fun topics as "Government - Calculation" and "Industrial Arts - Agriculture Calculation" or whatever that was. Speaking of that tossup, honestly, if there is ever a math tossup that is subtracting two two digit numbers, I'm probably going to stand up and leave. Back to the point...what was the purpose of increasing the number of computation questions if they're just going to be addition/subtraction problems?

All in all, I think the questions were passable (I've seen some pretty bad questions at some of the local tournaments down here), but they definitely could have been better, and they were definitely frustrating. There were certainly some things I could have done without: the superobvious China question, the superobvious Gibbs energy question, the Georgie Porgie question, etc. Anyway, hopefully they'll be getting better as the series progresses.

-JStoncius
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Post by TeachMe »

Tegan said:

On the other hand, if you got to get some guarranteed local wins against some teams like Niles, Glenbrook, Maine West, among others, your local record looks swell. The only local teams we played this year were Loyola (1-1), New Trier (no comment), Maine West (1-0), Deerfield (0-1, loss at Wheaton North), and 0-2 to Maine East. In other words, we get penalized because we don't have some cream puffs to pat the stats against, while we played the #1, #2, #3, and #4 Regional Champions seeds, and one match against a team with a relatively poorer record.

I might as well go out and schedule 4-5 local teams we can beat, waltz in and claim an "in-sectional" record of 5-0. I think that would be ridiculous, even though I know a few teams that avoided local heavies to do just that.


Tegan,
What teams avoid local heavies as you have said?

Some teams naturally play teams that are weaker in their league, but being that they are in their league, they are part of their schedule. This is to be expected. Being part of a league prevents someone from just scheduling teams they desire to play. They have to play the rest of their leasgue. But just because teams play in a lot of tournaments doesn't necessarily mean they still don't face weaker competitors. We faced at least one team in the Kickoff tournament whose players seemed like they'd never played a match ever.

Certainly, we play in a pretty tough league. But again, what local teams schedule matches to avoid heavies as you state in your post? Just curious.

Thanks.[/quote]
Last edited by TeachMe on Tue Mar 07, 2006 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Trevkeeper »

Mr. Egan,

Perhaps I did not articulate my point well enough. What I meant by our record against teams in our sectional was our record against teams that made it to the sectional stage of the state series this year (i.e. Deerfield, Fenwick, New Trier, Oak Park River Forest). Against only those teams is our record 3-4.

I do agree you, though, that what you were talking about is unfair.
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Post by mlaird »

Here's what I've noticed. Everybody complains. I know, I know. The state series questions are bad, but when has it ever been better? I can't remember.

I'm not going to complain about all the stuff (other than what Matt mentioned in that Laertes is totally Odysseus' father, not his son), I want to know why the only props people get for stuff is for how well run the tournaments are. Why don't you guys shout out some tournaments that have good questions, and are well run, and are always worth it to play. That way, those tournaments get more teams, and more teams will be exposed to better tournaments.

I'll start off with a few:
U of I Early Bird
New Trier Varsity
Pretty much anything with the letters 'NAQT' on it
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Post by Hunterthegreat »

Belgarion89 wrote:I thought the questions were pretty good as a whole, although I was disapointed by the lack of constitution questions. They weren't needlessly obscure, and yet they also weren't all buzzer beaters. Looking forward to Sectionals this Saturday.
I was equally disappointed by the low number of court cases. While I was in, there was only one court case by way of a bonus (Munn v. Illinois). I haven't been studying those only to have them suddenly drop off the radar, blast it! Still, I was pretty slow on toss-ups in the regional and I was more of a bonus player that day, so at least the court case was in bonus form. I'm glad that the regionals changed for us to make things more challenging, since that gives me an excuse to get a megadose of caffeine (Starbucks + Dr. Pepper = hyper and annoying for several hours). Also, where can I go to figure out who all won their Regional competition?
"Zwei Dinge sind unendlich, das Universum und die menschliche Dummheit. Aber beim das Universum bin ich mir nicht ganz sicher."
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Post by Trevkeeper »

Illinois Earlybird
Scobol Solo
New Trier Varsity
WUHSAC (Washington University in St. Louis's tournament, very well run, if your team is looking for an overnight trip, definitely check this one out)
Anything NAQT

Also, list some F/S tourneys if you have them.
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Regional Questions & Stats

Post by Matt Bardoe »

My 2 cents about the questions. I thought they were alright. I like having a mix. We should realize that there is a variety in Illinois Scholastic Bowl. There should be all different types of questions. I do think that the government computation was silly, but who am I to say.

Some of you might find this interesting: Here are some stats on the winning scores of the regional matches broken down by class.

In Class A there were 242 matches that were not forfeits. The breakdown by quartile of the winning score was:

Low: 48 (That is right. Someone won a match with 48 out of a possible 900 points!)
Quartile 1: 136
Median: 174.5
Quartile 3: 213.75
High: 352


In Class AA there were 166 matches that were not forfeits. The breakdown by quartile of the winning score was:

Low: 97
Quartile 1: 198.25
Median: 242.5
Quartile 3: 288.75
High: 599

Clearly these two groups are statistically very different.

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Post by Stained Diviner »

I'm staying out of the question quality discussion relative to this year's IHSA questions on this board. The best years of IHSA questions are 2001 (best) and 2002 (second best). If you want to hear what Illinois style questions are supposed to be like, send in your $50 to IHSA.

Mr. Egan refers to the time we were given the 5th seed in a Sectional. We showed up in shirts with the number 5 at the Sectional and eliminated #1 and #3, but we fell to #2 Stevenson, ruining what would have been a good story. So it goes.

As to the list being generated, add Fenwick/Octangulars and possibly UIUC ABT Solo. I believe that we will be able to add Kickoffs to the list next year. There are other tournaments that have decent questions. Also, probably none of you will ever see them, but Decatur MacArthur ran some tournaments with great questions in the late 1990s. Maine South's Frosh/Soph is a candidate for the list, but I cannot verify.
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Post by Bubiyuqn »

The UIUC ABT Solo had some pretty good questions (perhaps barring a question essentially made of Chuck Norris jokes). The science ones tended to be pretty intense, but they were still good. I know a lot of schools couldn't make it, but I had a lot of fun, and I'd certainly suggest that anyone who can go next year should do so. Of course, the New Trier and UIUC Earlybird were good too, but everyone's already said that.

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Post by dtaylor4 »

Mr. Reinstein and Stoncius:

Thanks for the shoutouts for my solo tournament, and for those interested, the questions are still for sale ($10 for 16 rounds plus OT). I agree, the science was a bit intense, and that is something that will be tweaked for next year, and I will try to secure a better date. As for the old Dec Mac tournaments, Durbin still has copies of old sets (I used to read them).

As for the difference in class, thank you Cpt. Obvious. The bigger schools are generally better, but there have been exceptions. That's why we have a 2-class system for IHSA.

To continue the thread on questions, who writes the state series questions?
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Post by Stained Diviner »

One person is essentially appointed by the IHSA as the chief editor. That person then chooses a bunch of people to write questions. There are generally two people chosen per major category to write questions and edit each other's questions. For the most part, I don't know names. I cannot share the few names I do know, and even with those names I don't know when they started or how much longer they will continue.
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Post by Tegan »

TeachMe wrote:Tegan,
What teams avoid local heavies as you have said?
I see it alot in the SICA, the DuPage (formerly...its gotten a little better in later years), and the West Suburban. I'm not trying to paint with a braod brush....there are exceptions: Downers Grove North is not shy about finding tough teams to play....OPRF attened three prety tough tournaments, one of which had some very top flight competition....Homewood-Flossmoor almost has a sadistic streak in that they go out of their way to find tough opponents (I thought Mike Sacks lost his marbles when he invited Detroit Central Catholic to his tournament). The Napervilles used to try and avoid anything, though the last two years have seen them get out to find some tougher opponents.

All I'm trying to say is: Can a team be really good at a record of 12-4? Sure! But even a record of 19-3 can be very misleading if they have not faced a lot of tough competition. Can a team be good with a record of 35-20? Yes they can, if you examine who they lost to, and who've they beaten. In other words: look beyond total wins and losses, and look beyond winning percentage. Know the opponents.

Since we're all beating around the bush here, I would like to remind all who were present: Maine South gave Deerfield its highest seed vote (a #2 seed for a team). A 12-4 record didn't do much for me by itself, but I knew the 4 were all to good teams, and at least one or two of the 12 were against some good teams. Some of the coaches who knew Deerfield best ranked them lower.
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Post by David Riley »

I second ReinsteinD's comment about MacArthur's questions, and I would add Homewood-Flossmoor's (both now under Michael Sachs and the old ones under Will Oldaker).

And I miss Triad Questions--although bonus #4 in their math was often hard to get in 30 seconds along with the other 3 parts

And I know most people don't like Panasonic questions--especially the matching and the multiple choice--but they do have some good questions in the 15-point rounds: actual physics problems as opposed to "identify the SI unit. . .".
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Post by Matt Bardoe »

Tegan wrote:
TeachMe wrote:Tegan,
What teams avoid local heavies as you have said?

Since we're all beating around the bush here, I would like to remind all who were present: Maine South gave Deerfield its highest seed vote (a #2 seed for a team). A 12-4 record didn't do much for me by itself, but I knew the 4 were all to good teams, and at least one or two of the 12 were against some good teams. Some of the coaches who knew Deerfield best ranked them lower.
My limited experience with the seeding meeting is that it seems to be for the mathematically challenged. The only thing that seems to matter, in All-sectional/ All-State voting is the number of tossups a student gets. There is no thought toward the number of questions in a game. No thought to the number of tossups per game, and no thought about the level of competition. I am dumbfounded at points by this lack of analysis. I also don't have any idea how to change this.


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Post by Tegan »

Matt Bardoe wrote: My limited experience with the seeding meeting is that it seems to be for the mathematically challenged. The only thing that seems to matter, in All-sectional/ All-State voting is the number of tossups a student gets. There is no thought toward the number of questions in a game. No thought to the number of tossups per game, and no thought about the level of competition. I am dumbfounded at points by this lack of analysis. I also don't have any idea how to change this.
Matt
Matt,

I agree completely. My team typically play shorter rounds (Monday was the first 30 question round they saw all year), our numbers tend to not look as impressive. I have tried monkeying with it, but it gets very tough to do unless you have some meticulous recrods being kept. I tried taking the advice of a fellow coach and report my players TU/20, but when I went back, I found I could only take a guess, and didn't want to be accused of cheating. At the seeding meeting, one coach quickly (and later when I checked, inaccurately) computed my player's TU/match...which wasn't overly impressive, considering he didn't play full matches in a few cases, and they were short matches to begin with. Fortunately, enough of the coaches there had seen him play, and knew how good he typically was.....but not every player gets the benefit of coaches who have seen them play.
Perhaps the option of reporting a TU/20 on the form would give coaches the option to alleviate this....though I suspect that some coaches wouldn't care. Some coaches look at total toss-ups only, and some look at TU/match only. I think the answer is to look at both total and average but also consider who you are playing.

One of the problems we are seeing is "Toss-Up only" tournaments popping up in central Illinois. Some teams go in and play 4-5 matches of 40 toss-up/round (and from what I have heard of the questions, these aren't pyramid style)....your stats can be padded big time in these cases. We are trying to stamp them out to avoid players running up incredible stats which are clearly slanted.
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