Illinois 06-07

[Stained Diviner]

What's the qualifying process for NAQT state like?

Show up. Few teams register, and there is no Regional or Sectional. It's a shame that there are so few teams, because it is a great tournament that I highly recommend.

[Trevkeeper]

There is no qualifying process. At this point, few enough teams attend (unfortunately) that the field is small enough at NAQT state to have no sort of qualification process such as regionals.

The top 15% of the field at NAQT state qualifies for NAQT nationals, which will be held in Chicago (the Crowne Plaza by O'Hare) Memorial Day weekend.

EDIT: Oops, I didn't see Mr. Reinstein's post.

[mlaird]

Thought some folks might want to see the lineup so far for the Fenwick tournament in two weeks. This, and the New Trier Sectional make up the most brutal of meets this year.

Wheaton North
St. Patrick
Lake Park (2 Teams)
Fremd (2 Teams)
St. Ignatius
IMSA
Wheaton Academy
Libertyville
Montini (2 Teams)
Marist
New Trier
Notre Dame
Waukegan
OPRF
Carmel (2 Teams)
Fenwick (2 Teams)

[Maxwell Sniffingwell]

Love the picture there, mlaird.

Oh yeah, and the Fenwick questions have been tested already by a field including some quality teams, so they'll be pretty much error-free. They're also (yes!) completely pyramidal.

[OP_Huskies]

does anyone know the set-up for the Fenwick tourney? Last year it was Octangular-ish, but 21 feels like too many teams for that.

JB

[mlaird]

B-teams might be seperate? People seem to like doing that nowadays.

Another thing that people seem to like doing nowadays is introducing their teams by whoever can buzz the fastest or in alphabetical order by brand of jeans, etc. Come on. Just do it from the left or right.

[Maxwell Sniffingwell]

...and my team will introduce themselves in order of political affiliation, from left to right.

[First Chairman]

B-teams might be seperate? People seem to like doing that nowadays.

Another thing that people seem to like doing nowadays is introducing their teams by whoever can buzz the fastest or in alphabetical order by brand of jeans, etc. Come on. Just do it from the left or right.

Who does this??? I mean... when you do a standard buzzer check, don't give them the opportunity. Besides, have them buzz in and tell you their favorite Simpson's episode or something...

[OP_Huskies]

Another thing that people seem to like doing nowadays is introducing their teams by whoever can buzz the fastest or in alphabetical order by brand of jeans, etc. Come on. Just do it from the left or right.

Just out of curiosity, what prompted that topic shift?

[Trevkeeper]

He probably noticed it at Wheaton North Frosh/Soph, or some other recent tournament.

[Summoned Skull]

We often introduced ourselves in some sort of comical manner, and I honestly don't think it detracted from the quality of the game in any way.

[Tegan]

For what its worth, there are many coaches and players who think it lacks a little class (at the least), and amounts to showboating and/or "shoving it in your face" at the worst (even if that is not the intent, which it often isn't). I know in Illinois that this has definitely gone out of style, and, IMO, its a bad day at Black Rock is that is coming back into vogue.

I suppose its one thing if it is done between teams of relatively equal ability and/or between teams who know each other and/or both do it, but otherwise it can really come across the wrong way.

This especially becomes annoying to the max when you are at a tournament tha is running a little late, and the team takes time to decide how to introdcuce themselves. In one instance this happened, and the moderator refused to elt them check the system, and just started the match.

[Summoned Skull]

I don't think there was ever a problem with "showboating" amongst the teams that I played against or the team that I played on.

We decided beforehand in what manner we would introduce ourselves; hair length, favorite system of government, etc. Time was never an issue. In finals or championship games, we always refrained from using special introductions.

Quite frankly, I've never encountered anyone, coach or student, who ACTUALLY took offense to something this benign.

[Tegan]

Quite frankly, I've never encountered anyone, coach or student, who ACTUALLY took offense to something this benign.

IMO ..... it really did depend. There were several coaches who would complain about certain teams that were coping attitudes. Of course that attitude usually accompanied a smackdown.

What it came down to was: if you were coping an attitude and coming across as arrogant, and you lost, then it was seen as "justice". If the same occured with a good team, and they blew you away, it was showboating.

Double standard: yes ..... but then again, very few losing teams ever did this.

[DumbJaques]

I'm not sure I understand why introducing yourself in alphabetical order counts as mocking anyone. I mean, unless they struggle with the alphabet (like most quiz bowl teams do), it's not really a put down. It's kind of retarded, maybe a little annoying in a "you're a moron" kind of way, but arrogant? If you break it down, that's really like saying you should modify your behavior for people who think its fundamentally wrong to emphasize enjoyment in qb because it should be about competition, and I think that's a really bad message. Not to say you shouldn't modify your behavior if you're an idiot (as an idiot, I can assure you it comes in handy often enough). But if some coach took offense because you were joking around then slaughtered his team (note: starkly different from joking around while and about slaughtering said team), he needs to calm down, and possibly consider a career that rewards you for choking the fun from life, like those guys at museums who stand around beating you with sticks when you try to ride the dinosaurs. Man, I hate those guys.

[OP_Huskies]

Regarding the alternative introduction methods

Since my junior year, our team has been using creative introduction methods ... baseball positions, pirates, etc. And we do this regardless of who we play ... whether it was against a B-team or right before NT walloped us last year at the kickoff. We don't do it to be arrogant. For us, its about having a little bit of fun as we play, and lightening the mood a little bit. If the other team finds it funny and laughs, we've done a service, albeit a small one.

Of course, some occasions require too much decorum for this, and we understand that. We DO NOT use our alternative introductions during state series or conference playoffs because we understand the greater need for seriousness during those occasions.

And, I am also curious as to whether people actually find this offensive. I hope that our methods have not been seen as arrogant, though we certainly apologize if anyone thinks they are. But again, most often it is certianly not intended that way. Maybe its just because the members of our team are really tight w/ one another, and so we see fun where others see crossing the line. A penny for your thoughts?

JB

[JohnAndSlation]

Personally, I don't mind alternate introductions, as long as they don't take up a lot of time and aren't horribly disruptive. It seems mildly unprofessional, but I'm not violently opposed.
For my team, I'd prefer to keep the introductions the way they are, if for no other reason than the fact that I am a creature of habit. Besides, by then, I'd rather spend the time getting ready for the game. It's more important to me than trying to think of something clever to say.

[friarup]

I don't really see what's wrong with alternate introductions. Although it can get annoying at some points, it also relieves a little pressure before a match. I say, let the teams introduce themselves the way they want. If it bothers you or you find it Bush League, let your game do the talking. If a team introduces themselves in a way that gets on your nerves, smoke 'em. Beat them so bad they'll leave the room thinking twice before they introduce that way again.

While the introductions may be all fun and games, I agree with JB on this, once your team reaches conference chapionships or the state series, I say it's time to go back to formal introductions.

[mlaird]

well, I started this. oops. I just think it's a problem when the captain does something, and the rest of the team isn't on board with it. For instance "teammates will introduce themselves by whoever buzzes in first." My other beef is that that specific "unique" method of introduction has become so widely adopted that it has become trite. It was cute the first time, but subsequent times you need to think of something clever. The 'Happy Buzzer Squadron" from New Trier used to do some intense introductions, and that is where hostilities started. Lots of coaches knew they were going to get beat (this is NT, after all), and they saw this as unnecessary gloating before the match even began. They no longer do this.

[Trevkeeper]

The 'Happy Buzzer Squadron" from New Trier used to do some intense introductions, and that is where hostilities started. Lots of coaches knew they were going to get beat (this is NT, after all), and they saw this as unnecessary gloating before the match even began. They no longer do this.

Suuuure. You Ramblers would blame New Trier for world hunger if you could swing it!

Anyway, no, we don't use themes any more, but that's not necessarily by design. Carlo and I had planned on using them, and then we just didn't. However, I'm not too upset by it -- I thought they were cool when I was a sophomore, but I can see now how some teams would view this as disrespectful (which in no way was ever our attention).

On a similar note, people aren't put off by Carlo or I introducing our team as the "New Trier Happy Buzzer Squadron" are they? I never really considered it, but I suppose that's a possibility.

[MJG]

A couple of random topics:

1) I say screw political correctness and do what you want. My coach would probably kill me if I did something like that (changing up introductions), but honestly if you are offended just by the words "happy buzzer squadron" you need to take a chill pill. That being said, if you are, like me, a kid from a team who try to take things pretty seriously and (pseudo)professionally (even when we are going to get killed), it does take some adjustment. I suppose ugly sweatervests will do that to you. Personally I enjoy seeing the NT team playing so laid back while kicking everyone's tail (though unfortunately I haven't seen them in a truly close match yet). It's a much different style of play than say, Bloomington's, and I suppose each has it's upside.

That being said, my first experience with something like this came at the Wheaton North F/S 2 years ago. Some team we were playing wore paper hats and had nametags with names like "Sergeant Pepper". IMHO: There is absolutely no need for that. Purposefully trying to distract a team or reducing the game to a circus has no place in schol bowl.

2) I saw the pools for the Streator Rotary today. Not good.

3) Ooo one more thing: I went snowmobiling in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan this weekend, and on one of the two TV channels they broadcast "High School Bowl". It was absolutely terrible, and gave me a new respect for the system and organization that Illinois schol bowl has. There was no math, and as far as I could discern ANYONE could buzz at ANY time, as often as they liked. For some questions, there would be 8-10 buzzes before the questions was even over. One of the bonuses gave successive clues about a year (1776), and after hearing one clue and then the roman numerals for it, the team answered 1969. A tossup about Thurgood Marshall was answered with "Marshall vs. Board of Education" and my personal favorite "Marshall vs. Madison". In the "finals" match, no one knew who wrote A Doll's House or that Nelson fought in the battle of Trafalgar, and the questions were close to the worst I had ever heard. I certainly don't want to come across as blaming the kids (God help those who have to drive 3 hours to get to a town the size of Sterling), they have plenty of things working against them, but it really illustrated the quality of Illinois schol bowl as compared to some of the other states.

[David Riley]

Hey--dob't knock the Wolverines! I know the show you refer to, it is pretty horrible, but Michigan has some outstanding teams (Eisenhower, Okemus, Detroit Catholic Central, Detroit Country Day, Hartland, White Cloud), to name a few. They play many different formats and are at home with anything from bad quick recall questions to NAQT.

The problem is that by its nature, TV quiz bowl is much different (and worse?) than live quiz bowl.

[Captain Sinico]

Hi,
In exactly what sense is it professional to get bent out of shape and complain when someone does something completely benign that bothers you? Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I think that's, like, the opposite of professionalism, actually. If you're at the helm of a team with pretensions of maturity or seriousness, you should have at least enough the maturity or seriousness to ignore it if someone does something cute but stupid. I pose that if a team introducing themselves in a way that you don't like throws your team off enough to bother them, they are, in fact, immature, unprofessional, not serious, etc.

MaS

[The Time Keeper]

Hey--dob't knock the Wolverines! I know the show you refer to, it is pretty horrible, but Michigan has some outstanding teams (Eisenhower, Okemus, Detroit Catholic Central, Detroit Country Day, Hartland, White Cloud), to name a few. They play many different formats and are at home with anything from bad quick recall questions to NAQT.

The problem is that by its nature, TV quiz bowl is much different (and worse?) than live quiz bowl.

I think he was just referring to U.P. quizbowl, in which case he seems to be right. It looks like Michigan hsqb in general seems to be slowing down a bit though. It doesn't seem like many tournaments are running in Michigan and non-DCC teams haven't been traveling much from what I can tell. There are still a few teams that will be able to do really well at NAQT/PACE, but it seems like discussion of hsqb in Michigan has dried up both on this board and in general over the last year or two. Hopefully this is just a temporary thing and new programs will start up and start hosting tournaments. It seems like a lot of NAQT IS sets are going unused in the area.

Hopefully some current players or coaches will start up a thread and maybe try to draw people from other local programs to the board.

[Tegan]

Hi,
In exactly what sense is it professional to get bent out of shape and complain when someone does something completely benign that bothers you? Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I think that's, like, the opposite of professionalism, actually. If you're at the helm of a team with pretensions of maturity or seriousness, you should have at least enough the maturity or seriousness to ignore it if someone does something cute but stupid. I pose that if a team introducing themselves in a way that you don't like throws your team off enough to bother them, they are, in fact, immature, unprofessional, not serious, etc.

MaS

By tangential extension:

If I were entering into a negotiation, and the other side walked in with clown uniforms, is it unpofessional to state that I am offended? I would hope not.

Now true: competition is not a negotiation, and quizbowl is not business. But I would think that in just about any competitive venture, when you have one team that tries to improve and takes things pretty seriously, there is a certain level of offense when the other team give an indication that:
1. They don't take this competition seriously, or
2. They don't take you seriously.

The second is absolute grounds for offense, I don't care who you are or what the situation. The first is a greyer area.

The problem is: people being people are all different: when a team with a 35-3 record is playing a team that is 12-12, and about to go to 36-3, and they waltz in with cute name tags, and introduce themselves with thier favorite latte flavor, one of those two situations may be the interpretation of the other team, and frankly, you can't blame someone for misinterpreting otherwise benign tomfoolery for being a sign of not taking the game serisouly, or not taking the opponent seriously.

Because of hte position I am in, I often have to talk with coaches about this, and told them that some people take offense to what they do,. and explained why ..... not that I told them to cease and desist ... just "be aware: this is how people are interpreting your actions, intended or not." In most cases, it went away.

And as with everything, the cutesy intros themselves were not so much the problem ..... it was all in the delivery.

[AKKOLADE]

you can't blame someone for misinterpreting otherwise benign tomfoolery for being a sign of not taking the game serisouly, or not taking the opponent seriously.

Yes I can, because it's a misinterpretation. If someone is getting upset over this behavior, maybe they should consider finding out if it was just against their team. The behavior doesn't actually harm anyone, doesn't get in the way of the match and doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

[DumbJaques]

I have to agree with Fred on this one. Also, Mr. Egan, it seems to be from your reasoning that if the 35-3 team was playing another 35-3 team, or a 38-0 team or whatever, it wouldn't be seen, by and large, as anywhere near as bad. This in turn seems like you're advocating a good team treat a team they know they're going to beat differently than any other team, and this is terrible for the better team (they should approach all games the same, in pretty much every competition imaginable), for the worse team (feeling in any way coddled is more likely to make me feel taken less seriously than anything else), and for the competition as a whole (it makes it less of a competition and more of an "activity" or whatever). With this in mind, I can't buy your logic. Fred's right, you never know a team's intentions and if they don't treat you any differently than anyone else, there's absolutely no reason to think they've anything personal against your team. Maybe they're still jerks, but last time I checked, it took way more than latte flavors to make someone a jerk.

[Maxwell Sniffingwell]

I think that's right on the money - what matters is the relative strength of the teams. A good team playing a bad team would be showboating, a bad team playing a good team isn't taking the game seriously.

But if the teams are in the same ballpark - Maine South v New Trier for third place at Kaneland was one of the most relaxed matches I've ever played, but it was a) massive amounts of fun and b) actually good quizbowl.

If we were playing Podunk High or 2005 TJ, then it'd be different.

[DumbJaques]

Ahhhh. I'm sorry if I wasn't being clear, that's not what my point was at all. What I'm trying to say is that the whole 'offensive' assumption is just being based on the relative strength of the teams, and hence is a faulty assumption about a team's character, and hence shouldn't be something you complain about. My opinion is pretty much the opposite of yours, I don't think teams should change their behavior based on their opponents. Sure, there are things that you should change behavior for, but anything that involves your team making assumptions about the skill levels of other teams and altering themselves because of those assumptions should be discouraged, for the reasons I stated in my last post. Again, I apologize if my semi-intelligibleness transitioned out of the semi range.

[JohnAndSlation]

I kind of agree. There is no way to tell if a certain team will be offended by the way you act. Why worry unnecessarily? Obviously, if you're being stupid, the other team has good reason to be offended, as well as to voice their concerns. Otherwise, I don't really see a reason to constantly try to change something as trivial as introductions to exactly suit the other team. If they have a problem with something, they can bring it up after the match.

[Stained Diviner]

When my team did joke introductions every match for about eight years straight, I learned which coaches couldn't stand it, and we didn't do it against those coaches. I also learned that teams from small towns generally didn't like it, so we sometimes asked the opposing coach for permission before the match.

We did continue the jokes through the conference and state tournaments, and there were times that the moderator told us to use nicknames because we had created the expectation. With certain captains, I had to make sure the nicknames were ready before the match, or else they would spend a full minute trying to come up with something ad lib, annoying me.

Other teams have done joke introductions. They aren't necessarily copying us--adolescents sometimes get bored saying their first name, especially when they are seated behind a sign saying their first name. It started when we had a captain who looked like Shaggy who liked to introduce the team as Scooby Doo characters--we often had two girls on the team that year and a junior who didn't mind being Scooby or a ghost. At one point, one captain compiled 100 nickname themes into a notebook.

[David Riley]

All teams interested in the NAQT Illinois State Qualifier check the announcement under "Regular Season Tournaments".

[Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)]

There's nothing to be gained by a team changing their behavior based on how good the other team is. I treat all games the same, whether it's against a bad team that we end up blowing out of the water or a good team that can beat us. There's no need to be condescending, or inconsistent.

I don't care if teams use nicknames or whatever, but if they're going to use them, don't change it based on how good your opponent is. And if a bad coach complains about it, if the team was consistent they shouldn't have as much complaint ammo, if you will.

Acting badly in a match shouldn't be allowed, though. For instance, I was playing a team and their players were making a big deal about how they were going to win, and they'd won the last game 300-50 or something like that, and they were a "private school" (as if it mattered). I felt like they were rubbing it in our face, so I was provoked to beat them badly. When you act arrogant in that way, it can actually have a highly negative effect on your score.

[David Riley]

My $0.02 on a related note...

On several occasions in the past I've had really strong teams. (2000 and 2004, to be exact). We never used introductions, but they would often get really excited when conferring on bonuses. I observed at the time that bad teams--oh what the heck, "everybody wins, self-esteem"--coaches would often play the sportsmanship card when there was no poor sportsmanship. It helps to have the rule/interpretation book on your person, it's good at responding to those types of challenges.

It also helps to have your players carry their IDs so that if you have an outstanding freshman or sophomore playing on fr/so, they can't level the charge that you're playing juniors and seniors on your fr/so team.

[mlaird]

It also helps to have your players carry their IDs so that if you have an outstanding freshman or sophomore playing on fr/so, they can't level the charge that you're playing juniors and seniors on your fr/so team.

Wait wait. Are you honestly serious? is there a story behind this that I haven't heard? I hope so.

[David Riley]

Yes. To wit:

Two stories, same school but two differenct coaches.

Story the 1st: Stephen Walker (class of '01) was one of the most outstanding players I've ever had. When we played this school when he was a freshman, the one coach accused me of using upperclassmen on a fr/so team.

Story the 2nd: An earlier coach from the same school played the sportsmanship card when Chris Hajdul, Rudi Patitucci, and Richard Rodriguez (all class of '00) , and later, you, Rob Perkins, Andy Mathews, et al. got excited while conferring on bonuses. He said--both times--are they allowed to be that loud? Compared to some teams I've heard, yous guys were tame!

[First Chairman]

As evil coach, I'd accuse your kids of having fake ID's.

Decathlon requires transcripts from each student be sent ahead of time to avoid such controversy (or better ones, like that kid doesn't even attend your school! accusations).

If it boils down to "your best player's momma wears Army boots," quiz bowl holds a very strange place in some coaches' minds.

On the serious side, what are the ramifications for launching false accusations by a coach or a team? Has that topic ever been approached?

[David Riley]

The IHSSBCA had discussed taking it up, but before we could finalize it, the school fired the coach for other reasons (I might add that said coach has been fired from two other schools in the last six years).

[the return of AHAN]

Hello. I've been lurking for quite some time now. Time to introduce myself. I'm a scholastic bowl coach at the middle school level and lurk here because I know of no other site for middle school coaches!

Let's see if Tegan can figure out who I am...

[Stained Diviner]

Who needs Egan?

Welcome aboard, Jeff Price.

[the return of AHAN]

Say, when will we finally learn about middle school scobowl teams in NT's feeder schools?? I swear, middle school scholastic bowl teams east of the Tri-State are like the LochNess Monster. I hear stories about them playing in mysterious fall tournaments, usually hosted by Catholic high schools. But they don't play in the State Series, so I never see them and only get to hear stories from people claiming to have seen them.

[Summoned Skull]

I played in middle school...

I was amazingly bad, but it really helped to have that feel at least for how the game is played before doing it in high school.

[Trevkeeper]

Say, when will we finally learn about middle school scobowl teams in NT's feeder schools?? I swear, middle school scholastic bowl teams east of the Tri-State are like the LochNess Monster. I hear stories about them playing in mysterious fall tournaments, usually hosted by Catholic high schools. But they don't play in the State Series, so I never see them and only get to hear stories from people claiming to have seen them.

As a matter of fact I tried to start a quiz bowl team at my junior high. It never happened, though. I guess the year I tried it was too late to start, and the next year everyone sort of forgot about it.

I'd love it if our feeder schools had quiz bowl teams.

And yes, Loyola hosts some meets for junior high teams throughout the year.

[Tegan]

Say, when will we finally learn about middle school scobowl teams in NT's feeder schools?? I swear, middle school scholastic bowl teams east of the Tri-State are like the LochNess Monster. I hear stories about them playing in mysterious fall tournaments, usually hosted by Catholic high schools. But they don't play in the State Series, so I never see them and only get to hear stories from people claiming to have seen them.

Maybe know is the time to tell the word that this year's Daniel Wright team is composed of the best Stevenson alumni ......

What are you trying to do with encouraging New Trier's feeder programs? Its bad enough when they don't have players as freshmen with four years experience.

Just stay out there ......

[Trevkeeper]

I never realized it, but that's probably why our F/S team is always smaller compared to other programs'.

[the return of AHAN]

Maybe know is the time to tell the word that this year's Daniel Wright team is composed of the best Stevenson alumni ......

Mr. Egan,
Speaking of Stevenson's team, was there anyone we know playing frosh/soph for them???

Ken Jennings Jr. perhaps?

[Matt Bardoe]

I just got my information for the seeding meeting. Since I am in Class A, and many of the teams are more than an hour a way from the seeding meeting most have indicated they are not coming to the seeding meeting. In the past, the people who came to the seeding meeting would get a list of the scores, and the name of the teams that they had played. This year all I am getting is the teams record. This is a little disappointing, that we moved to a system with greater technological requirements and get less information than before. For those who are interested in Class A, here are the records of the teams in my subsectional:

Aurora Central Catholic : 1-8
Braidwood Reed-Custer: 9-3
Chicago Latin 20-9
Coal City: 4-6
Timothy Christian: 14-9
Roycemore: 3-11
Gardner-South Wilmington: 1-3
Lisle: 2-10
Ottawa Marquette: 11.5 and 12.5 (I don't know what that means)
Seneca: 19-1
Somonauk: 3-10
Streator (Woodland): 5 -3
Wilmington: 2-10

[OP_Huskies]

Ottawa Marquette: 11.5 and 12.5 (I don't know

11 wins, 12 losses, and a tie perhaps?

[MJG]

Oh man, I feel bad for you. Good luck seeding with that!

Results from Streator Rotary:

1. Bloomington
2. Maine East
3. Moline
4. Sterling

The semifinals: Sterling lost to Maine East on a tiebreaker (which was tossup only b/c "Streator" rules were different then IHSA), and Moline lost to Bloomington by 15 points.

Unfortunately the trophy presentation started before our match was over, so I don't know the order of the others, but Streator, University High (of ISU I believe), Springfield, and Rock Island rounded out the afternoon.

The meet went well; the questions were very short. We had one moderator who went into middle school mode, saying correct or incorrect after every part of a bonus. The moderators began by basically stating belief in paper infallibility, but luckily they bent when questions arose, which was an improvement from last year.

[friarup]

I was wondering what happened in the final at the Homewood-Flossmoor tournament on Saturday. We had to leave right away to get home for a dance that night. I'm fairly certain that Wheaton North and Maine South played each other.

I've been looking here and ihssbca.org for the results, but I haven't seen them posted.