Illinois 06-07

[David Riley]

I just have to ask....when you say the answer booklet said "accept no variations", did it mean for that particular question? If it was generic to the entire tournament, then we are in big trouble....I caught quite a few alternative answers today. I hope the other moderators and I can catch these at Masonic State in two weeks.

[JIrving]

I do not mean to be confrontational, but I just felt that the situation needed clarifying. I see that the Code of Ethics has not yet been ratified, so I guess no standing rules were violated. I just felt it was a situation that should have been handled differently. I do not mean to "call out" Fenwick, I wanted to see their side. I can delete my post or edit it if I violated board protocol.

[fenwick88]

I just have to ask....when you say the answer booklet said "accept no variations", did it mean for that particular question? If it was generic to the entire tournament, then we are in big trouble....I caught quite a few alternative answers today. I hope the other moderators and I can catch these at Masonic State in two weeks.

it said "accept no variations" for that specific question

[MJG]

Rock Falls sectional:

1. Sterling
2. Newman Catholic (Sterling)
3. Scales Mound
4. Amboy

Consolation: Pecatonica

THe questions were atrocious. I'll elaborate later.

[friarup]

Before I say anything in our defense...
Results from WWS:
1) Fenwick
2) WWS
3) Wheaton North
4) St. Ignatius
C) Lincoln Way East

Now...Here's what happened...there was a math tossup asking to write an equation in standard form. I don't quite remember exactly what the answer was, but the answer given was in the form Ax + By = C. That answer was deemed incorrect because the question stated specifically not to accept any variations of the answer. The answer on the packet was given in the form Ax + By + C = 0. Neither team was awarded points.

There was a protest by the opposing coach and opposing captain. They asked the moderator, and he pointed out that the question stated specifically not to accept any variations. The coach went on to question us about what type of standard form we learned. (I'm not a math guy, but I remember learning standard form in Ax + By +C = 0. I'm not sure if there are two standard forms, and I'm not the person to ask.) We didn't respond because our coach has always told us to let him handle the situation when another coach asks us about a protest.

The specific question stated explicitly about not accepting variations, so it would seem to me that whoever wrote the question gave thought to other variations. It was not a generic statement about the whole tournament.

I know that it sucks losing a match with a question like that, but I think asking for an apology is too much.

[Jax]

Congrats to NT, Sterling, and the friars for winning. i feel stupid for asking, but what is this Masonics Bowl Business?

[mlaird]

STANDARD FORM BLAH BLAH BLAH

Check it out:

http://www.mathwords.com/s/standard_for ... a_line.htm

It's the questions fault for being dumb. That seemed to be the trend of the day.

Masons?

Masonic Bowl is another (albeit a terrible one, and that's saying a lot) state wide, sectional-qualifier based tournament. The big deal about it is a sick-nasty big traveling trophy for the winner of the state tournament, and that winners at all levels get moneys. The questions this year and last were particularly horrendous, and their only redeeming virtue was that they did not include any puns about great auks or some other extinct bird-thing.

[friarup]

It's a whole other state tournament for illinois. it's sponsored by the Masons (I don't know if they're free masons, or what). You get money for your school for placing well. I really don't know all that much, Jackson, but that's the extent of my knowledge.

[JIrving]

Okay, I'm fine with it since no rules were broken. One question though, did you guys know that Greg's answer was right?

[SKrc]

Okay, I'm fine with it since no rules were broken. One question though, did you guys know that Greg's answer was right?

<===Wheaton North team member

This is completely unnecessary Jon. Let it go.

[David Riley]

Yes, they are freemasons.

And the questions have not been horrible as a rule, some years they have been decent. I don't want to start another "what is good quiz bowl?" war here, but I would encourage the better question companies (and we know who they aren't ) to place a bid for the Masonic state series.

[Trevkeeper]

I'd like to bring up an issue that recently surfaced at our Masonic Sectional tournament. Our team answered a math question in a certain form that was not accepted by the moderator, even though it was correct. The team facing us, Fenwick, knew it was right, but they did not voice a protest, even though we had done the same for them earlier. Isn't that a breach of ethics according to the rules? I would advise Fenwick not to do this again. We, as a team, are tired of this kind of behavior. Please do not do it again, and an apology would be nice as well.

When we were at Kaneland, Carlo gave an answer in a form that was correct but different than what was on the page. Carlo said it was right, and Fenwick agreed (even though they didn't have to).

[Siverus Snape]

This is probably a moot point, but I remember that in Algebra I, the standard form our book used was Ax+By=C, but in my analytic geometry class, standard form was Ax+By+C=0. When you get to conic sections, standard form always equals 0, so I would be inclined to think that the second standard form has some strong backing. However, since both equations are used widely, it really was a bad move on the writer's part to not allow for both forms. Sorry if this was really redundant or unnecessary.

[the return of AHAN]

As an outsider, I'm curious if anyone can tell me what company was used for this year's Masonic questions.

[Tegan]

b) its not our job to support your protests, there are no ethical issues involved, if i may quote herm edwards "you play to win the game".

Fenwick 88,

That is true, you do play to win the game, and while not everyone abdies by it, it is a pretty defacto rule that if you as a coach/player know that the writer/moderator is screwing up, you jump in. I have known coaches that didn't, and they have been blacklisted from my tournaments. I once wrote a questions where the answer was "Who did Beowulf kill immediately after killing Grendel?" Dumb me wrote "Beowulf's mother" and somehow never caught it in editing. In a match to decide the tournament, my team answered correctly, and the other team and their coach decided that the answer was wrong, but "Go with what's on the paper." The team won by 3 points on an 8 point bonus swing. That team was only invited back after a change in coaching staff.

In making this public post, you are saying that, in the future, no teams should extend this courtesy to Fenwick, because they will not get it back. As a decade long friend of Fenwick Scholastic Bowl, I strongly suggest you consult with your teammates/coaching staff before this statement effectively alienates them from being helped in the future. You do play to win, but you play to win without boneheaded questions and calls deciding things. In an exceptionally close match with New Trier in the finals, I twice aided the moderator from making a bad call that would have cost New Trier points (admittadly once one the last question when the match was done). In other matches, I helped the moderator make deciscions that gave the other team points, by only because that was the right decision. Further, when my team got screwed, I jumped in and fought for them when I could. Am I sorry my team lost .... you bet! ...... in hindsight would I do one thing different? ... not a chance!

That being said, if this all pertains to the question I am thinking of, it came up in our semifinal against Fremd, which had its own controversey. The question specifically said "standard form" (I was timing next to the moderator, and read the question over her shoulder). Since there was a constraint on the answer, it definitely should not have been accepted in slope-intercept or any other form.

[fenwick88]

mr egan, im sorry my post was taken so seriously. i was kinda joking, but i guess i made a mistake. i know how it feels to be on the other side, and i know weve always been friendly with mr egan. i deleted that part of my post, and i hope we can move on to other topics.

[Bubiyuqn]

[EDIT: oops, I'm silly. disregard]

Anyway, Carbondale Sectional:
1. Carbondale
2. Murphysboro
3. Marissa
4. Sparta
C. Cobden

We even managed to get accused of knowing the questions beforehand in the semifinal round. It was cool.

-J Stoncius

[Tegan]

As an outsider, I'm curious if anyone can tell me what company was used for this year's Masonic questions.

If the company is smart, they will NOT permit their names to be found out!

We finished second in a tough sectional .... defeated a greatly improved Fremd team (improved from the beginning of the year), and lost a narrow match to New Trier that went to the last question. Maine South put up some fairly large scores on the day. The last two rounds were coin flips. It could easily have been won by any of the top 4 teams.

You can question topics and distribution (lack of music and literature for openers), but the questions lacked alternative answers, and several were point blank hoses. All this amounted to very pressure packed days for some moderators trying to do well. I can't remember a tournament where I had to stop the moderators for things like:

1. The answer is "Woodrow Wilson", and the moderator prompts on "Wilson". This is followed a few question later by a bonus part asking for "Jefferson and Hamilton", and even after convincing them that "Wilson" was fine, they still needed "Thomas and Alexander" .... which were not actually needed.

2. The answer is "commutation", and the moderator won't accept "commuting" (there was no stipulation to require a form of the word)

3. At one point one of the Masons in the room got upset when an answer wasn't being accepted, but I calmed him down and told him that it was too late, and that IF the question writer had done their job, it wouldn't have been a problem.

4. The answer given is: Copper Two Sulfate, but since it only says "copper sulfate" on the page, the moderator will not take it.

These were the most aggregious ones ...... ther were little ones here and there that I have forgotten. The moderators all meant well, but they got little help from the very poor questions and their answers.

[mlaird]

As an outsider, I'm curious if anyone can tell me what company was used for this year's Masonic questions.

If the company is smart, they will NOT permit their names to be found out!

It was Great Auk. Oops!

[the return of AHAN]

4. The answer given is: Copper Two Sulfate, but since it only says "copper sulfate" on the page, the moderator will not take it.

For the record, my instinct as a moderator of some high school tourneys, would've been to rule incorrect to give the opposing team a chance to give the exact answer on the page, since I'm NOT a chemist. If they'd have failed, then I'd go back to re-consider Copper Two Sulfate and most likely give it to the first team.
In the same vein, as a math teacher who has been teaching Algebra I for 13 years, I WOULD have permitted the answer Ax + By = C, and assumed that the writer meant to not accept things like point-slope form, slope-intercept form, etc.

[mlaird]

4. The answer given is: Copper Two Sulfate, but since it only says "copper sulfate" on the page, the moderator will not take it.

For the record, my instinct as a moderator of some high school tourneys, would've been to rule incorrect to give the opposing team a chance to give the exact answer on the page, since I'm NOT a chemist. If they'd have failed, then I'd go back to re-consider Copper Two Sulfate and most likely give it to the first team.
In the same vein, as a math teacher who has been teaching Algebra I for 13 years, I WOULD have permitted the answer Ax + By = C, and assumed that the writer meant to not accept things like point-slope form, slope-intercept form, etc.

The problem, specifically at Fremd, is (and always will be at our state tournaments) inexperienced moderators who were unfamiliar with the rules and the way that matches are supposed to be conducted. Unfortunately, they were being paid and therefore apparently could not be replaced.

[Alejandro]

Wikipedia says that the general form of a linear equation is Ax + By + C = 0, and I've seen it like that in most of my math textbooks. However, it's really just being unnecessarily nit-picky if you reject an answer in Ax + By = C form.

[the return of AHAN]

Wikipedia says that the general form of a linear equation is Ax + By + C = 0, and I've seen it like that in most of my math textbooks.

Wait a minute. Did the Masonic q ask for standard form or general form? That same wiki article shows Ax + By = C for the standard form!

[mlaird]

Wikipedia says that the general form of a linear equation is Ax + By + C = 0, and I've seen it like that in most of my math textbooks.

Wait a minute. Did the Masonic q ask for standard form or general form? That same wiki article shows Ax + By = C for the standard form!

It's wikipedia. Check out the link i had above. that explains it all.

[the return of AHAN]

I know wikipedia is hardly the most authoritative source, but I think you missed my point. Wiki's article shows Ax+By+C=0 as GENERAL form, and Ax+By=C as STANDARD form. My point being that wiki's own article does NOT back up Ax+By+C=0 as being a STANDARD form. NCRedhawk pointed this out, but it was unclear whether he/she was trying to point out a source to back up the q writers or refute them. So, once again, did the Masonic question actually ask for "standard form" yet post the answer as Ax+By+C=0 as even the Fenwick side attests?
Mountain out of a molehill to be sure, but I'm disappointed a question writer could be so careless.

[Tegan]

4. The answer given is: Copper Two Sulfate, but since it only says "copper sulfate" on the page, the moderator will not take it.

For the record, my instinct as a moderator of some high school tourneys, would've been to rule incorrect to give the opposing team a chance to give the exact answer on the page, since I'm NOT a chemist. If they'd have failed, then I'd go back to re-consider Copper Two Sulfate and most likely give it to the first team.

And that is exactly what a good mderator does. The exact play was as follows:

Blah, blah, C-u-S-O-4

My player: Copper Two Sulfate

Moderator: ehhh..errr...ahh.. no

Other team: Copper Two Sulfite

Moderator: No, the answer is copper sulfate, and since I'm not a chemist, we're going with what is on the paper.

The real stupidity was me not having a chemistry text book!

1. The moderator should have ruled immediately, and when in doubt should have ruled incorrect. I sat there petrified that the other team was going to say "copper sulfate" and get it correct. Thank goodness they didn't know enough about these questions, and guessed the mistake was the ion, and not the charge.

2. The moderator admits ignorance, but then says he won't entertain protests. I really felt bad because I learned later that he was new to moderating, and has now learned exactly how not to moderate: bully the coaches who are far more experienced than him (combined 25 + years in the room), and in fact were both science teachers. This is far from the intent and letter of rules in Illinois.

The really sad part: the other coach was timing, and at one point did not start the clock because my team had interrupted on the last word, and the inflection sounded like he still had more to read. When the other coach realized what had happened, he instinctively started the clock, and got scolded by the moderator, asking "do you know how to time, because I can do it if you can't". I was shaking my head, because this coach has been coaching longer than me, and certainly knew what he was doing. The coach started raising his voice a bit as he was getting baited, but then backed down realizing he couldn't win.

[Tegan]

i hope we can move on to other topics.

in a Cosmo Kramer voice: d-d-d-d-d-Done!

[MJG]

Comments on the tournament:

BEST PART OF THE DAY: The last part of a bonus asked for all the rational answers to y^2=2 (there are no rational solutions). The other team says, "Part 4, no answer". The moderator looks at the sheet for a little bit and then asks "can you be more specific on part 4?"

I think I'll try to avoid a rant over the question since it seems everyone here already knows what would be said and agrees with it, I think I'll ask some questions that the tournament brings up.

1. What is the role of grammar as a topic in a varsity tournament? There were SO many grammar questions. I always thought of grammar as a relatively minor (as in it isn't asked very often) and very fresh/soph level topic. I suppose the prevalence of vocab and spelling should also be addressed.

2. How many industial arts/agriculture/random whateverness questions are too many?

3. Should bonuses by tied by category to the tossups, as they were on Saturday? I am trying to think about the scoring consequences of doing it, but so far I've got nothing coherent or conclusive.

4. We all like long pyramidal tossups, but is there something wrong with turning bonuses into essentially four unrelated tossup questions? Some of them were REALLY long! I almost wanted to tell the moderator to switch out a bonus part for a tossup, and vice versa, especially when the tossup is as short as "what is the longest river in Venezuela?"

5. What makes a good computational math problem? I am not that great of a math player, but other than the fact that there was almost no calculus, I didn't find it THAT bad, at least compared to the questions/tournament as a whole.

6. Is their merit in using arbitrary modifiers on questions such as alphabetical order? Questions such as "Name the last planet alphabetically" (note: one team actually guessed Earth) and "Name the first endocrine gland alphabetically" were not my favorite. I suppose one could say alphabetical order questions might require one to know ALL of the group of items the question is asking about, but they just seem cheap to me.

Ok, just one rant: Why can't they set up 8 rooms? We played 4 rounds from 9 till 3:30. We could have been done by noon! It is just not fun to wait around for an hour or more between matches.

That being said, it's still a huge credit to the Masonic organization that they endeavor to put on a statewide scholastic bowl tournament. Even if it's not perfect, they put a lot of time, money, and effort into it. And even if the questions were bad, I think it's still a good thing for IL scobowl as a whole, especially for teams like many of those small schools at our sectional who don't have many tournaments in their area or don't choose to compete in them. The Masonics might be one of only a couple of tournaments that those teams compete in all year. And at least (some of the teams) get paid to answer crappy questions!

[Irreligion in Bangladesh]

Matt brings up very nearly every facet of Masonics that I can remember from my days as being an issue, along with a few new ones (such as, as recently as two years ago, it wasn't a play-round-bye-round format). I think switching to Aegis, NAQT, or some other top-notch question provider solves it.

Matt's points:
1. Grammar's place in quizbowl? NAQT is practically non-existent, Aegis is a subcategory of literature (rather than literature as a subcategory of Language Arts). Both options reduce their emphasis greatly in favor of literature.

2. Industrial/Agriculture/Randomness? Masonics always seemed to me to be General Knowledge Bowl - between the lack of upper-level math, the lack of in-depth literature, the categories like "Aircraft" and "Cattle", and the prevalence of such random categories - it always just seemed to me to be whatever someone like a Mason would actually know. This isn't to say that they wrote the questions, of course - but it's the sort of thing that, I don't know, like your Grandpa would teach you about randomly on some weekend or something. Anyway, with NAQT or Aegis it'd be normal quizbowl, so there's that.

3. Tossup-bonus category matching? I think the general consensus around here has been to not match categories, because if you've got a [INSERT CATEGORY HERE] stud, it essentially becomes a 30-point tossup question. It's one thing if the categories match by coincidence of running down the list of bonuses, but matching each one isn't right. Again, Aegis and NAQT don't do this.

4. IHSA has it in the "rules" (actually probably the guidelines or something) that bonuses should be tied together by some unifying theme. In my opinion, if the theme is as random as "name the following people whose names begin with R" and the category is interdisciplinary, that's fine. The theme doesn't have to be outstanding, as long as it's kind of coherent.

As for Masonics, I don't remember their bonuses well enough to recall if they were really random or just slightly random - but when most of your categories are miscellaneous as it is and the bonuses are tied to the category of the tossup, random bonuses are probably going to happen. Aegis and NAQT, of course, will give you quizbowl, so that's that.

5. Good computational math? As a comp. math writer for Aegis, the best answer to this question isn't as much in the individual questions themselves as you'd think - it should also try to spread out the categories so that the math isn't all, say, geometry in a given round. Apart from that, a good comp. math question will ask you to do something you don't often see in a tossup to reduce the reliance on the old standbys, because everyone and their mothers can find the period of a sine graph. Good bonuses give 4 parts that are tied together but are NOT the same calculation in 4 different ways - no more "convert the following four angle measures into radians from degrees" for every trig bonus. You might see something like that, but I doubt it'd be like that in an Aegis or NAQT question.

6. Alphabetical order? Umm...no. It's non-pyramidal for one, unless you use it as a giveaway, in which case it's a really crappy giveaway. Pyramidality aside, all that tests is, as Matt said, knowledge of every element of that set - you might as well list off the entire set if it's small enough or not write the question if it's too long. I'd say it's just bad.

7. Play one round, bye the next? That may be a function of Masonics inability to get enough moderators. I'm willing to bet that if that's the case, it won't be the same at Masonic state, when the demand is much lower. If it isn't, I have no idea why it would be that way. At the very least, I can't see why they would have to do it in Northern Illinois where there are definitely enough moderators. Out of curiosity, were the moderators people associated with quizbowl or associated with Masons? If it's the latter, maybe IHSSBCA could assist with finding moderators for next year to help that out. (I know that if that's the case, then the need for questions would be reduced, and Aegis could probably get a winning bid in for next year's set - not that I'm suggesting anything )

[dtaylor4]

To counter:

The play-bye-play-bye has ALWAYS been done down here, and is also done at state. My best guess as to why this is done is so they don't have to pay as many staffers.

The questions last year were from the Auk, and I know this because it came out of the mouth of the man that runs the whole damn show.

[bdavery]

The problems people have complained about with Masons questions for the last 3 years didn't come up in the 2 years before that, when we wrote them. (/shameless plug).

If someone else who is good were to write them, that would be good for IL quizbowl in general, as it's a good experience for teams that don't normally play on high-quality material and the Masons really do a good job as far as money goes.

But (last I knew) you have to write 16 20/20 rounds (8 for region and 8 for state) that then can't be used anywhere else in IL because the tournament is statewide. Not everyone wants to (or is able to) do that.

[MJG]

Most of the moderators were schol-bowl affiliated people I was familiar with (Jim Say, Justin Van Zuiden, etc.), not Masonic-affiliated people (I dunno about any overlap there). From that selection, I am guessing that the Masons left it up to the TD to find moderators.

[JohnAndSlation]

The really sad part: the other coach was timing, and at one point did not start the clock because my team had interrupted on the last word, and the inflection sounded like he still had more to read. When the other coach realized what had happened, he instinctively started the clock, and got scolded by the moderator, asking "do you know how to time, because I can do it if you can't". I was shaking my head, because this coach has been coaching longer than me, and certainly knew what he was doing. The coach started raising his voice a bit as he was getting baited, but then backed down realizing he couldn't win.

Just one last commment about that...I didn't hear a full sentence. Neither did Jeff, for that matter.

[Maxwell Sniffingwell]

Actually, the answer to one of the Literature* questions was "inverted pyramid form." Irony is sweet.

But yeah, the tossup-bonus matching was odd... every time a music tossup started, I was gunning for 25 or 30 points, not ten.

Speaking of music... one music and one art each round, and NO music in the championship when I was praying for it? Gah!

*The Literature questions would've been better if they were about... um... literature.

[MJG]

Speaking of inverted pyramids, we had a reporter around all day and I'm pretty sure he was the only one who knew the answer.

[enix150]

Hey cornfused aren't you Greg Peterson from Park Ridge? You guys won at that tournament last weekend. A few of my friends played at that... Did you happen to meet Alex Zhai? He kept talking about his games haha.

My good friend Annie played against Brian Enders on 5th board. She really enjoyed their game and she wanted to play him again. Do you know him well? If so, I would be really thankful if you could have him email or IM me or if you just gave me his email that would be a big help. Thanks.

Btw, my email and other info is in my profile.

[Maxwell Sniffingwell]

Those who are confused, the preceding post is chess-related.

I take it you're from U-High, enix? You guys had us dead to rights and we just got lucky...
E-mail me at [email protected] where to send the info - but Brian's gonna be a leeetle bit surprised.

[leapfrog314]

Regarding the fact that the bonuses sounded like four unrelated tossups:

Matt Laird and I discussed this, and he had a really good theory about this. If you look at Great Auk's sample KMO questions, you'll notice that they all sound like the tossups we heard at Masonics. You'll also notice that they sound like the bonus parts. If you're particularly astute, you might notice that the KMO has no bonuses.

Yes, that's right! We think that the bonuses are just four tossups on the same subject stuck together. It makes sense because they don't normally write bonuses, because none of the bonuses all day had related parts, and because the bonus parts all sounded exactly like the tossups. (Same length and everything.) What do you think about this theory?

[mlaird]

Aegis Questions is now accepting applications for new question writers for the 2007-2008 season. We invite all current seniors, older players, and coaches to apply. Check out our online application!

[Maxwell Sniffingwell]

From the Great Auk site...

9. What is the first noun in the Pledge of Allegiance that includes a long vowel sound?
9A: "Allegiance."

Um... what about "I?"

[mlaird]

From the Great Auk site...

9. What is the first noun in the Pledge of Allegiance that includes a long vowel sound?
9A: "Allegiance."

Um... what about "I?"

I can't believe you got as far as number 9.

[David Riley]

Er....I is a pronoun.

[Maxwell Sniffingwell]

Er....I is a pronoun.

I am a pronoun, Coach Riley... but yeah, you have a point.

[David Riley]

Okay, you're a pronoun

[Irreligion in Bangladesh]

Could someone explain to me how Washington is going to Masonic State instead of Maine South (or any other 2nd place team, for that matter)?

[Tegan]

This year, the rules said that the wildcard was based on the average point-per-match in the tournament (since some teams had byes. and some didn't).

Washington scored something like 870ish points. Maine South scored 930. Maine South did not have a bye. Our worst round was the 180 in the loss to New Trier. We scored something like 305, 230, and 215 in the other rounds.

Nonetheless, if Washington did have a bye, that means that they averaged around 290 points/match ..... and STILL didn't win! The host told me that they outscored the field, including the team that beat them (Illinois Valley Central) in the finals.

With the rule change this year, I have a query in to see if everyone did their math right.

[Tegan]

**BREAKING NEWS**

An addition error has caused a change in the Masonic State Wildcard:

Maine South will be in Springfield on 3/3.

[First Chairman]

I applaud your intuition. Of course, that's why they do the math.

[enix150]

Hey cornfused the pronoun I emailed you. Hope to hear back soon.

[Matt Bardoe]

I see that the IHSSBCA site is down. Will it be up again soon?

Matt