Panasonic teams

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Post by CoachJET » Mon May 21, 2007 3:04 pm

charlieDfromNKC wrote:There certainly is a problem with the tournament style. It doesn't truly allow for teams with deep knowledge of a subject to show their understanding because its structure is designed for buzzer racing.
No, I must disagree. The PAC tournament is structured with three rounds: a 5-, 10-, and 15-point round. The questions become progressively harder in each round. While the 5-point round questions (and some of the 10-point round questions) are geared more for speed, the 15-point round definitely rewards depth of knowledge.

Example: At the CAC Florida state tournament this year (CAC uses the same format as PAC), my team dominated the 5-point round because we were faster on the buzzer, but we were owned in the 15-point round by a rival team who had much deeper knowledge than we did. And since the 15-point questions are obviously worth much more, that team ended up winning the state championship while we finished a distant second.

The problem that I have seen at PAC is that many teams don't familiarize themselves with the format, and so they come in expecting it to be a fast-buzz type event. I have seen countless good teams go down in flames in the 15-point round, with neg after neg, because they could not ease off the throttle and show more patience.

I understand that PAC is a bit quirky, but I don't think that "different" necessarily means "bad." Many of the kids who I've coached, who have spent equal amounts of time preparing for CAC/PAC and NAQT-style events, have told me that they find the CAC/PAC format more enjoyable, since it requires a great deal of strategy and it emphasizes teamwork far more than any other tournament.

So there's my small defense of PAC. Is it flawed? Yes, in several ways, but so are all other tournament formats. However, besides the exorbitant costs of attending (which they do need to fix, I agree) it is a really fun and worthwhile event.

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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Mon May 21, 2007 3:05 pm

But they aren't pyramidal tossups, and that automatically precludes it from being a true test of depth. While yes, in any quizbowl there will be some buzzer speed involved, in this format there is notably more than in say, NAQT or PACE nationals (PACE especially). While I'm guessing that Destin doesn't get a lot of pyramidal tournaments so you may not realize there are styles that take quizbowl to a much higher level than Panasonic, but trust me, they do. Listen to an HSNCT podcast or something from Mike Bentley and see what it is really about.
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Post by DumbJaques » Mon May 21, 2007 3:07 pm

There are innumerable ways in which the format is grossly inappropriate for deciding a national champion among state all-star teams. Here are some of them:

-Four (and in the final, SIX) teams playing at once. It really changes the nature of the game. If two teams square off, you can usually conclude who's better in the given format. But having six teams in one match is just ludicrous. Particular when it's a tossup only match that has most of its value concentrated in the final round of tossups. One or two teams that buzz in early in the final round repeatedly hoping for a long shot can really screw with the results.

-One or two buzzers per team. WHY?

-The aforementioned depth of knowledge issue. Someone who has read four novels from a lit matching question should not lose to someone who just knows their title or main characters. On a related note, the construction of the matching questions demonstrates a clear lack of awareness of what it's like to be a competitor in the game. For example, if you've got a "match the character to the novel" type of deal, why list the novels first? At least give it some semblance of rewarding those who know more by listing the characters. Also, the "must have exact wording on matching questions" thing is pointless.

-Much of the game is pointless. The 5 point round is pretty pointless. The worksheets are definitely pointless, particularly in playoff rounds or the final. The 10 point round matters somewhat, but really, a team can utterly suck in the first two rounds and get a few lucky buzzes in the third and come out a winner. Essentially, it's like randomly assigning point values to different questions. That's bad.

-Tossups only formats are never that great of a plan. Tossup only formats in which their are six teams and any one of them can immediately kill a question at any point are worse. Much, much worse.

-In my experience, the format has the unique ability to drastically reduce the skill level of players who are really good. There are a few outliers to this, but really, any remote evidence of such a trend is troubling.

-One buzzer per team. Seriously, WHY?


EDIT: I love everyone so much I decided to post some more.
No, I must disagree. The PAC tournament is structured with three rounds: a 5-, 10-, and 15-point round. The questions become progressively harder in each round. While the 5-point round questions (and some of the 10-point round questions) are geared more for speed, the 15-point round definitely rewards depth of knowledge.

Example: At the CAC Florida state tournament this year (CAC uses the same format as PAC), my team dominated the 5-point round because we were faster on the buzzer, but we were owned in the 15-point round by a rival team who had much deeper knowledge than we did. And since the 15-point questions are obviously worth much more, that team ended up winning the state championship while we finished a distant second.
"Harder" does not equal "more of a test of depth of knowledge." Also, in the final round among six state all-star teams, the point becomes entirely moot. Unless you have the questions going till the end and one team buzzing as the only ones who know the answer, it ruins the system in the exact way I described. Also, if that's the case, it could just be an exam, and that would suck.

The point is that while this format is not inherently inappropriate for your state, it is clearly not ideal for a national championship between what should theoretically be the country's best possible team's assembled. Everyone knows most answers even in the 15 point round (with the exception of some of the bizarre computation), and having a tossup that shows you something by duchamp and says "name the artist, name the style" does NOT reward depth of knowledge.

Also, all those computation questions are ridiculously excessive. Why so many?
The problem that I have seen at PAC is that many teams don't familiarize themselves with the format, and so they come in expecting it to be a fast-buzz type event. I have seen countless good teams go down in flames in the 15-point round, with neg after neg, because they could not ease off the throttle and show more patience.
I am familiar with the format and I still think it is pitiful.
I understand that PAC is a bit quirky, but I don't think that "different" necessarily means "bad." Many of the kids who I've coached, who have spent equal amounts of time preparing for CAC/PAC and NAQT-style events, have told me that they find the CAC/PAC format more enjoyable, since it requires a great deal of strategy and it emphasizes teamwork far more than any other tournament.
So does Risk or SOCOM, but I fear we will never see those two unified with quizbowl. True, different doesn't necessarily mean bad, but "bad" means bad, and that's what this format is, for the reasons I outlined above. Note that I never used any reasoning like "the format is different from this other one, so it sucks," but instead "the format destroys knowledge, a reasonable test of competition, and reliably consistent results, so it's bad."
So there's my small defense of PAC. Is it flawed? Yes, in several ways, but so are all other tournament formats. However, besides the exorbitant costs of attending (which they do need to fix, I agree) it is a really fun and worthwhile event.
Note that all the negative things I've been saying are about the format. I really, really wish PAC would change it, but that alone doesn't make PAC a bad event. I went twice because I really enjoyed the atmosphere, going to Disneyworld, and hanging out playing quizbowl for a week. The people at PAC are very good, well-meaning people. The format is even kind of amusing to play, when nothing is riding on it. But to have that kind of stake (national championship, scholarships, etc.) on that format is wrong, and I'd like to see some willingness to change, given the intelligence and decency of the people involved with PAC.
Last edited by DumbJaques on Mon May 21, 2007 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by embily718 » Mon May 21, 2007 3:08 pm

I was actually going to say what CoachJET just said, so read his.
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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Mon May 21, 2007 3:10 pm

Chris, you make some great posts every now and then. I just feel the need to compliment that.
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Post by embily718 » Mon May 21, 2007 3:17 pm

While yes, in any quizbowl there will be some buzzer speed involved, in this format there is notably more than in say, NAQT or PACE nationals (PACE especially). While I'm guessing that Destin doesn't get a lot of pyramidal tournaments so you may not realize there are styles that take quizbowl to a much higher level than Panasonic, but trust me, they do.
OK, one, why do you feel the need to insult the place in which I was brought up? Two, why do you think that the fact that I was brought up in such a place would be a reflection of my knowledge of quiz bowl proceedings?

I am familiar with NAQT format, and I disagree with what you said. I believe that NAQT rewards buzzer speed and guessing more than PAC and doesn't penalize it as much as PAC does. In any NAQT tournament, the most you can lose by guessing on a question is 5 points, and that's only if you guess before the question is done. In PAC, you can lose up to 15 points, and it doesn't matter when you guess.
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Post by quizbowllee » Mon May 21, 2007 3:20 pm

embily718 wrote:
While yes, in any quizbowl there will be some buzzer speed involved, in this format there is notably more than in say, NAQT or PACE nationals (PACE especially). While I'm guessing that Destin doesn't get a lot of pyramidal tournaments so you may not realize there are styles that take quizbowl to a much higher level than Panasonic, but trust me, they do.
OK, one, why do you feel the need to insult the place in which I was brought up? Two, why do you think that the fact that I was brought up in such a place would be a reflection of my knowledge of quiz bowl proceedings?

I am familiar with NAQT format, and I disagree with what you said. I believe that NAQT rewards buzzer speed and guessing more than PAC and doesn't penalize it as much as PAC does. In any NAQT tournament, the most you can lose by guessing on a question is 5 points, and that's only if you guess before the question is done. In PAC, you can lose up to 15 points, and it doesn't matter when you guess.
I don't think that he was insulting your home. He was stating the obviously correct assumption that your area hasn't been exposed to very many pyramidal tournaments. The same can be said about where I live, but we (a few other coaches and myself) are trying to rectify this problem.

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Post by DumbJaques » Mon May 21, 2007 3:24 pm


OK, one, why do you feel the need to insult the place in which I was brought up? Two, why do you think that the fact that I was brought up in such a place would be a reflection of my knowledge of quiz bowl proceedings?
As Lee more eloquently put it than I'm about to, he wasn't doing that, so there's really no need to pull out the "you hate my region" card. For the record, Charlie's region kind of sucks in that department too, and he's about the last person in the country who would believe that being from a pyramidally challenged region would disqualify you from knowledge of the qb world.
I am familiar with NAQT format, and I disagree with what you said. I believe that NAQT rewards buzzer speed and guessing more than PAC and doesn't penalize it as much as PAC does. In any NAQT tournament, the most you can lose by guessing on a question is 5 points, and that's only if you guess before the question is done. In PAC, you can lose up to 15 points, and it doesn't matter when you guess.
Actually, that's a terrible analogy. You don't lose 5 points when you neg, you can lose as much as 110. That's because you've given up your chance at 10 or 15 points on the tossup, allowed the team getting the BOUNCEBACK (notably absent in the PAC format) to get the question easily after it's completed, and then given up your own chance at a 30 point bonus and given it to the opposing team. Also, NAQT (and other pyramidal tournaments) are just that: Pyramidal. Questions look for specific answers based off progressively easier clues, so the main factor of a game is not "guessing" but "knowing the answer," which I personally am a fan of.

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Post by embily718 » Mon May 21, 2007 3:31 pm

But I am familiar with NAQT. We don't have PACE in my area, and I'm not exactly sure of what that is, but I have been to and won NAQT Regionals and went to NAQT Nationals this year in Minnesota for my college's Brain Bowl team, of which I was the captain.
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Post by BuzzerZen » Mon May 21, 2007 3:46 pm

I'm going to have to agree with Chris on the "PAC makes good players suck" front. Last year's team Virginia (me, Neel, Charlotte, Schafer, Mark, and Xun) was a reasonably high concentration of good quiz bowl players. Yet none of us were able to adapt to the absurd format. Schafer, being beastly at math, became our most valuable player. Without him, we would not have made the finals. Mark and I decided immediately afterwards that we had no interest in coming back the next year. Especially since Chris Ray wouldn't be there to bet against me at the craps table.

Some odd quiz bowl formats are good for what they are. The It's Academic TV show is actually pretty good at being a quiz show. (I still don't think It's Ac style tournaments are a good thing, mind you.) It's largely academic, the grab-bag round questions are reasonably pyramidal, and it's fun to participate in if nothing else. I had pretty much no fun competing at Panasonic. Sure, Disney World was a blast, but the games were stressful without being exciting. I had to remember what language to answer foreign language questions in, remember the order the letters and numbers went in on the matching questions (easily the worst idea ever), and other things that should have no place in quiz bowl.
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Post by DumbJaques » Mon May 21, 2007 3:47 pm

But I am familiar with NAQT. We don't have PACE in my area, and I'm not exactly sure of what that is, but I have been to and won NAQT Regionals and went to NAQT Nationals this year in Minnesota for my college's Brain Bowl team, of which I was the captain.
Aside from the fact that I'm having trouble figuring out how someone who graduated in 2007 played at the ICT this year (and for what school), the fact that you're a captain somewhere or "familiar" with NAQT is completely irrelevant. Nobody is refuting those things and all of the arguments I just made have noting to do with that or you, but the format itself.

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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Mon May 21, 2007 4:02 pm

I have been to and won NAQT Regionals and went to NAQT Nationals this year in Minnesota for my college's Brain Bowl team, of which I was the captain.
Yeah, good question. How does that work?

I was not insulting your region at all. Just tell me how many High School NAQT or pyramidal tournaments there are in Destin. I can tell you there were hardly any in Kansas City. Chris is dead on in that assessment of me. Most people in Missouri don't understand the concept of why pyramidality is better.
As for PACE, that's who sponsors the board. They are a national championship that uses even more well-structured, pyramidal, academic questions that truly take emphasis off of buzzer speed. Look them up, maybe find a few of their packets, and you'll see what I mean (hopefully).
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Post by embily718 » Mon May 21, 2007 4:02 pm

If you have trouble with the format or think it "makes good players suck," practice more. It really isn't difficult. Maybe it's because I'm familiar with the format, but I really don't understand why everyone is saying certain things. I agree that the tournament set-up isn't great, but the questions themselves are not bad. Oh, and a tip for the matching, write it down.
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Post by embily718 » Mon May 21, 2007 4:06 pm

I was able to be captain of a college team because of the school I went to. At the Collegiate High School, we take college classes on a college campus and participate in college extracurriculars. This year for my Brain Bowl team, I was the only returning member, and my coach said I was the best player. While that may or may not have been true, I certainly enjoyed it.

Also, to answer your question, I have not been to any high school NAQT tournaments, but I have been to college ones. Also, there aren't any in Destin, as it is a small tourist town with few places that can host such a tournament. My team travels. I am familiar with pyramidal questions, but I will look up PACE. Are the questions packets free?
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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Mon May 21, 2007 4:11 pm

Okay, a team can be good on Avery questions if they practice them constantly, but that doesn't mean they are good questions. I think the same applies here. However, as a previous participant in Panasonic, I can say the ideas tested may or may not always be at a high level. However, when you are matching questions it then becomes much more focused on manipultaing mechanics and techniques than actually knowing stuff. If say they ask you to match:
Characters and authors
1. Anna Karenina
2. Hedda Gabler
3. Chuck Norris
4. Matt Weiner

Novelists:
A. Chuck Norris wrote himself
B. Ibsen
C. Tolstoy
D. No one knows from whence Matt came

Well, you can't buzz in until you hear Tolstoy. At that point in a good room everyone should be buzzing. Then, a team that has deep knowledge of Matt Weiner gets no reward for knowing about him, instead all you have to do is make sure you lock yourself in on the bits your team knows.
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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Mon May 21, 2007 4:12 pm

embily718 wrote:there aren't any in Destin.
That was my point right there.
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Post by embily718 » Mon May 21, 2007 4:18 pm

While I agree that there is some strategy that must be used, you also must have the basic knowledge to know the first three. There are very few questions that are THAT simple, and often, there is one answer in the first three that no one is sure of, so you have to wait for the fourth option. Also, there are many questions that aren't like that. It seems you're talking mostly about the matching questions being bad, but over half of the questions are free-response, in which case the team or team member does have to truly KNOW the answer.

Also, I agree that Avery questions are terrible.
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Post by DumbJaques » Mon May 21, 2007 4:24 pm

If you have trouble with the format or think it "makes good players suck," practice more.
Oh, and a tip for the matching, write it down.
I practiced. I still think it sucks. As Charlie says, being able to get passably decent at something isn't the issue here. The issue is when 6 teams are buzzing in at the exact same point over and over again and the match becomes absurd.

Also, you're still making things personal and not addressing the entire list of points I made. I'd appreciate if you did, since if you're point is that if I worked harder and had been more successful at PAC format I wouldn't criticize it so it so much, you might want to reassess.

And we're not just talking about matching questions. In fact, we're talking about EVERY LAST QUESTION. For example,

Identify the German disciple of Nicholas Copernicus-
The largest minority in the United States is now-
Identify the grammatical error in the following sentence-

all suck. They're bad questions. As I said before, the issue at a NATIONAL TOURNAMENT becomes that everyone "truly KNOWS" the answer most of the time, and the idea of testing for depth of knowledge becomes a distant memory.

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Post by Captain Sinico » Mon May 21, 2007 4:34 pm

embily718 wrote:While I agree that there is some strategy that must be used, you also must have the basic knowledge to know the first three.
Right. So such a question tests only basic knowledge. That's bad. A question that goes immediately from "0% of people can even possibly know the answer" to "100% of people with even basic knowledge know the answer" is bad. It's especially bad if you expect almost everyone to have that basic knowledge (which, at PAC, I do.) In short, there's no advantage to knowing more, which is bad.
Of course, it still requires some skills to convert that basic knowledge to points and, of course, some of those skills are similar to those required by other quizbowl events. But those facts are beside the point. The point is that PAC in both its format and questions is designed to test only basic knowledge in exactly this way, so that its questions very often become basically tests of "who's going to buzz in at the exact right point and say what most everyone is 100% sure is right, but not screw it up in some insignificant way?" That's not a good way to determine a champion.

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Post by First Chairman » Mon May 21, 2007 4:42 pm

embily718 wrote:But I am familiar with NAQT. We don't have PACE in my area, and I'm not exactly sure of what that is, but I have been to and won NAQT Regionals and went to NAQT Nationals this year in Minnesota for my college's Brain Bowl team, of which I was the captain.
Just to clarify, PACE format isn't in "any area," and it's not meant to be a geographically entrenched format. It is meant to be a challenging quiz bowl format to any team regardless of the "home game format" one is used to. Yes, we do lean more towards pyramidal format because we want to help transition students to the college game beyond what NAQT does, but there are many things that make PACE quite distinctive like
  • the lack of an interrupt penalty for guessing (unlike both PAC and NAQT)
    rebounding bonuses (unlike both PAC and NAQT)
    the category quiz in which you can choose your extra "bonus" one-part team question (again unlike both PAC and NAQT)
    "strategic powers" instead of NAQT's "blind powers"
    giving the benefit of the doubt for participants to give correct answers and not penalize them for not giving it "in the form of the answer line"
There's also the fact that PACE format means that a winning team usually can end the game on a correct answer rather than win a game on an opponent's penalty. Stealing points on bonuses keeps both teams in the game. Having a fixed point value possible of a regulation game (out of 1000) points allows for interesting strategy, especially since the last 10 questions comprise 500 possible points, so all teams usually remain in play (which is rather rare in matches with this level of rigor). In short, buzzer speed is important, but so are correct answers, teamwork, and depth of knowledge for the entire team.

So basically, PACE is meant to be "for everyone" and by that I mean for everyone who wants to take on an academically rigorous test of quiz bowl for a national championship, whether it is for the present or for the future.

And by the way, if you do want to take on the challenge, you have a little time left to enter the field. :)

And yes, the questions are free upon request... to me.
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Post by embily718 » Mon May 21, 2007 5:15 pm

My school got out a few weeks ago, so while it would be impossible to organize a team and pay the registration, travel, and boarding fees, I would be really interested in seeing a packet or two. I know I'll be organizing a tournament in the fall, so Iwould like to be exposed to as many formats as possible. If you could email it to me, that would be great. My email is embily718@gmail.com

Thanks!
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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Mon May 21, 2007 6:17 pm

We still haven't discussed Emily's responses to the other problems with the tournament.

Florida may get sponsors to pay all of your fees. Great for you, not so great for the many players from other states who have to spend their own money on all of the fees. This is the problem Dr. Barnes was discussing.

As for tryouts, if it really works for Florida to pick an all-star team that way, great for you. However, if you pay attention to the presentation at the end you will realize that many of the teams attending are just some high school team that may or may not be the best from their state. And Panasonic does nothing to try and change team selection methods in those states. I personally think not bringing an all-star team goes against the concept of Panasonic, but that's just me.

So you guys may be ahead, but that's not so in much of the country.
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Post by wd4gdz » Mon May 21, 2007 6:18 pm

embily718 wrote:But I am familiar with NAQT. We don't have PACE in my area, and I'm not exactly sure of what that is.
FSU was planning to host a PACE style tournament, but only 2 teams decided to sign up.
embily718 wrote: I went to NAQT Nationals this year in Minnesota for my college's Brain Bowl team.
:w-hat:?????

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Post by wd4gdz » Mon May 21, 2007 6:22 pm

Don't worry world: not everyone in Florida thinks PAC is awesome. I think it sucks, and most others do as well. I believe that if people didn't get free tickets to Disney and free $20 meals, they would complain more about PAC.

The questions suck, even the 15 pointers. Case in point: around four years ago, there was a 15 pointer that was literally just "Who wrote Catch-22." This led to four or more teams buzzing in at once, and I kid you not, the buzzer broke from mass overload.

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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Mon May 21, 2007 6:25 pm

wd4gdz wrote:the buzzer broke from mass overload.
That's what it gets for submitting to being played on an awful question. Do you happen to remember what kind it was?
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Post by ieppler » Mon May 21, 2007 6:51 pm

For some reason, GDS owns a set of Panasonic-style buzzers. They're made by Quiz-A-Matic.

Also, I agree with everything that Chris Ray and Charlie have said.

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Post by brownboy79 » Mon May 21, 2007 8:29 pm

There are parts of what people have said that I agree with, most notably when Chris says that PAC is not quiz bowl. BUT, (I've only started playing the format this year, and I've never been to the tournament itself) they don't claim to be quiz bowl. Once you think of it as a academic tournament, one that rewards all kinds of useless, or useful, its not a complete waste. Think about it like this: NBA Street is not the NBA. It will never be the NBA. It doesn't pretend to be the NBA. So it's unfair to hold it to the standards of the NBA.

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Post by First Chairman » Mon May 21, 2007 8:31 pm

There are some questions that only work well in Panasonic format. But then again, whether they ought to work for quiz bowl... I suppose that can be argued.
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Post by Matt Weiner » Mon May 21, 2007 8:32 pm

brownboy79 wrote:There are parts of what people have said that I agree with, most notably when Chris says that PAC is not quiz bowl. BUT, (I've only started playing the format this year, and I've never been to the tournament itself) they don't claim to be quiz bowl. Once you think of it as a academic tournament, one that rewards all kinds of useless, or useful, its not a complete waste. Think about it like this: NBA Street is not the NBA. It will never be the NBA. It doesn't pretend to be the NBA. So it's unfair to hold it to the standards of the NBA.
NBA Street doesn't cost $4000 out of the budget a team might have used to enter the real NBA, either.

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Post by brownboy79 » Mon May 21, 2007 8:33 pm

A team can spend money on whatever the hell they want. I mean, that's their perogative, and if you start telling people that what theyre choosing to spend money on is bad, I suggest you prepare for the backlash in advance.

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Post by Matt Weiner » Mon May 21, 2007 8:36 pm

brownboy79 wrote:A team can spend money on whatever the hell they want. I mean, that's their perogative, and if you start telling people that what theyre choosing to spend money on is bad, I suggest you prepare for the backlash in advance.
"Start"?

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Post by brownboy79 » Mon May 21, 2007 8:37 pm

Matt Weiner wrote: "Start"?
Special case in your position. My bad.

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Post by CoachJET » Mon May 21, 2007 8:50 pm

brownboy79 wrote:There are parts of what people have said that I agree with, most notably when Chris says that PAC is not quiz bowl. BUT, (I've only started playing the format this year, and I've never been to the tournament itself) they don't claim to be quiz bowl. Once you think of it as a academic tournament, one that rewards all kinds of useless, or useful, its not a complete waste. Think about it like this: NBA Street is not the NBA. It will never be the NBA. It doesn't pretend to be the NBA. So it's unfair to hold it to the standards of the NBA.
You know, I was thinking along similar lines earlier today. PAC is not quiz bowl in the traditional sense, and they've never claimed to be. It's an "academic challenge." Most of this discussion stems from the fact that people try to compare PACE/NAQT with PAC, but they're really not the same thing, so it can be an exercise in frustration.

One more note, regarding Matt's observation about the high cost. The flip side of that is that PAC gives out $27,000 worth of scholarship money ($2500 for players on the first place team, $1500 for second, $500 for third) and also really nice championship rings for the top three teams. Obviously, only three teams will reap financial rewards, but still...I don't know any other national tournaments that offer anything like that.

Anyway, PAC is what it is, and I'm ok with it.

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Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Mon May 21, 2007 10:08 pm

CoachJET wrote:You know, I was thinking along similar lines earlier today. PAC is not quiz bowl in the traditional sense, and they've never claimed to be. It's an "academic challenge." Most of this discussion stems from the fact that people try to compare PACE/NAQT with PAC, but they're really not the same thing, so it can be an exercise in frustration.
I think the thing is is that there is, in my eyes, no differences between the set of quiz bowl teams/players and the set of PAC participants. If anyone has seen a team at PAC that isn't their school's quiz bowl team or their state's all-star team of quiz bowlers, feel free to refute it, but I doubt this is the case.

That fact forces us to look at PAC as quiz bowl because players that go to PAC must practice for the format/canon (or suck, their choice). If you practice for PAC, you give up large amounts of resources that you could put towards getting better at pyramidal style, a more prevalent and (as explained by Chris Ray et al) more academically challenging format.

Now please don't let this diverge into the realms of another QB Econ thread. :)

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Post by brownboy79 » Tue May 22, 2007 8:42 am

Yes, but couldn't some people just think PAC is more fun? Don't get me wrong, I love NAQT and PACE, and I don't think there is anywhere near a high school equivalent at other tournaments. But some people may just happen to like PAC. I mean, when you think about it, it probably doesn't affect you a great deal. Nobody that really loves PAC would enjoy an NAQT or PACE tournament very much, so it's not like your tournaments are losing a bunch of money because of it. Chris, Matt, Charlie, and everyone else who is displeased by teams going to Panasonic, I don't think that even ones so incredible in quiz bowl knowledge and experience should be condescending enough to tell someone that their format is bad and they shouldn't play it. Granted, it may be bad, but isnt the whole point of this game for the players to have fun? And If people are having fun going to PAC, live and let live.

Eh. Now can we go back to the original idea of this thread? Like predictions for PAC?

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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Tue May 22, 2007 8:47 am

No, we can't. I think the tournament would be a helluva lot more fun were it using good questions. That's one thing I hear so often - "Panasonic has bad format, but it's fun in Disney World so it's all good" which I wish people would stop saying. Instead, why not have fun at Disney World and have good, fun competition? I'm sure we could find people willing to pull together a real tournament. I know one of my friends is bringing down good questions to have scrimmage games on with the all-star teams, which I think is a great idea and will actually give some real differentiation between teams there. Is anyone else interested in playing those? Because I think it'll be more enjoyable than the actual competition.
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Post by brownboy79 » Tue May 22, 2007 8:57 am

I would play them. And I'm sure the rest of our team would play too. With real buzzers and everything? Instead of this one buzzer nonsense?

And really, Charlie, nobody is making you go, so why bother? If you don't like it, just say you don't want to go. The reality is that some people enjoy, albeit for the Disney "experience". If that's how PAC attracts teams, then there's nothing you can do about it.

Frankly, I don't understand why people are upset by the crappiness of PAC. Granted, it would never in a million years constitute real quiz bowl, but from what I understand, they don't seem to want it to constitute real quiz bowl.

The questions aren't particularly good, but even NAQT and PACE have criticisms, we see them all the time. And while NAQT and PACE generally accept the criticisms and make an effort to better the questions, just because PAC doesn't, Panasonic isn't the Satan of quiz bowl. I see the logical argument that most people are suggesting. That it's a bad tournament. My question is: who cares?

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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Tue May 22, 2007 9:04 am

Reason's why I'm going:
There's a crapshoot for any knowledgeable team or player to get some decent payoff.
My coach runs the team, and it's really hard to say no to the guy running your team.
As I said, part of Panasonic is really enjoyable - going to Disney with friends etc.
And a very particular personal reason.

So I'm not gonna say no to that, but I am gonna say the format sucks. When Mike Wehrman was on our team he hated the format too, but went anyway, so there's real precedent.
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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Tue May 22, 2007 9:09 am

If people could bring some buzzers, that would be amazing. I would, except our system is broken. I think the questions are from a college tournament that's not too hard, but I'm not sure. We would probably be running it out of the hotel rooms. Also, you can't have a game without moderators, so if anyone wants to have coaches, parents, or alternates read, let us know. If the more official director (you know who you are) wants to post about it here, that's up to him.
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Post by The Time Keeper » Tue May 22, 2007 10:44 am

brownboy79 wrote: Eh. Now can we go back to the original idea of this thread? Like predictions for PAC?
Some Mid-Atlantic team that couldn't care less about this tournament will win it because that's all that has happened in the last several years.

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Post by embily718 » Tue May 22, 2007 11:22 am

My state's team is made of the best players from a tournament that is the same style as PAC.
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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Tue May 22, 2007 11:38 am

embily718 wrote:My state's team is made of the best players from a tournament that is the same style as PAC.
We know. You've told us already. And this contributes to the discussion how?
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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Tue May 22, 2007 11:40 am

[Just feeling the need to point out impending trainwreck on this thread, if the last 24 hours is any indication]
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Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Tue May 22, 2007 12:10 pm

charlieDfromNKC wrote:
embily718 wrote:My state's team is made of the best players from a tournament that is the same style as PAC.
We know. You've told us already. And this contributes to the discussion how?
I'm thinking she's trying to put up a case for her team winning PAC. However, the logic behind her argument can be tested by looking at past results. How has Florida done in past PAC's?

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Post by Byko » Tue May 22, 2007 12:17 pm

Okay, so to get this back on track:

First, this is just my opinion. And as a coach for Maryland, I will not comment on what I think Maryland will or will not do. That's not professional.

Having said that, I think Missouri, Florida, Kentucky, and Illinois all have a chance to win the whole thing. Florida is obviously very comfortable with the format, Kentucky has done well in the past and is now bringing an all-star team (which can only help), and Missouri and Illinois have repeatedly made it to the finals and both have very strong teams.

One thing I think you can count on is that there will always be a surprise team (to some extent) that gets into the finals. Colorado filled the role in 2004 and Wisconsin did it in 2005 (there wasn't a really big surprise in 2006--Tennessee was as close as you could get, and that's not a big surprise, honestly).

I'm curious who's representing these states:
Indiana
California
Colorado
Maine (When was the last time they competed at PAC? It's great to see them listed here!)
New Jersey
Connecticut

Some of these are more for sheer curiosity--others will, I think, impact who has the best chance to win their first-round games and maybe even get into the finals.

I'm not seeing any first-round game that looks like it's one team dominating the rest of the room. California-Oklahoma could be very interesting to watch, and my comments about Kentucky-Florida-Colorado are earlier in this thread. I haven't seen DC's team--depending on who is playing for them, their game against Illinois could be interesting. I think just about anyone has a chance to win the two games in Nutcracker 1, Missouri may get a challenge from Texas or Vermont, and Ohio-Alabama will surely be fun.
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Post by embily718 » Tue May 22, 2007 12:30 pm

styxman wrote:
charlieDfromNKC wrote:
embily718 wrote:My state's team is made of the best players from a tournament that is the same style as PAC.
We know. You've told us already. And this contributes to the discussion how?
I'm thinking she's trying to put up a case for her team winning PAC. However, the logic behind her argument can be tested by looking at past results. How has Florida done in past PAC's?
I was actually replying to something someone else had said. I clicked "Quote," and it didn't work.

I have no idea how Florida will do at PAC, as I have never been, I have only attended CAC.
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Post by DumbJaques » Tue May 22, 2007 12:34 pm

My state's team is made of the best players from a tournament that is the same style as PAC.
My state's official sport is jousting.

I don't think PAC is bad, and as I said before, I really think that pretty much everyone behind PAC has nothing but the best of intentions. I do think they could be a little more open to hearing constructive criticism from participants, particular long-time coaches and players. I hope I didn't give the impression that I hate PAC or that it isn't worth my time, because that would make me an ass considering I've gone twice. I had fun, and don't think people should boycott or anything. But the fact is, as Brad nicely put it, that quizbowl all-stars (or at least top teams) from each state compete for a substantial amount of money, and/or spend a substantial amount of money attending what is billed as a national championship. I do think the format is pretty bad given those parameters, and that PAC should be a little more receptive to change.

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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Tue May 22, 2007 12:45 pm

YEAR CHAMPION RUNNER-UP THIRD PLACE FOURTH PLACE FIFTH PLACE SIXTH PLACE
1988 Maryland Tennessee New York
1989 Maryland Ohio Virginia
1990 Kentucky Georgia Maryland
1991 South Carolina Virginia Wisconsin
1992 Maryland Kentucky New Jersey
1993 California Maryland South Carolina
1994 Virginia Wisconsin Kentucky
1995 Florida South Carolina Maryland Pennsylvania
1996 Maryland South Carolina Alabama unknown Pennsylvania unknown
1997 Texas Maryland Wisconsin unknown unknown Pennsylvania
1998 Maryland Florida District of Columbia unknown Illinois unknown
1999 Florida South Carolina Maryland Missouri Tennessee Texas
2000 Maryland Kentucky Missouri Illinois Georgia Alabama
2001 District of Columbia Florida Maryland Vermont Kentucky South Carolina
2002 Maryland Illinois South Carolina Virginia Georgia Texas
2003 Virginia Florida South Carolina Texas Pennsylvania Ohio
2004 Virginia Missouri Illinois District of Columbia Kentucky Colorado
2005 Virginia Maryland Illinois Florida Wisconsin Colorado
2006 Maryland Florida Missouri Pennsylvania Virginia Tennessee
2007 Michigan Michigan Michigan Michigan Michigan Michigan
Sorry, couldn't resist the bolding.
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Post by CoachJET » Tue May 22, 2007 12:47 pm

styxman wrote:
charlieDfromNKC wrote:
embily718 wrote:My state's team is made of the best players from a tournament that is the same style as PAC.
We know. You've told us already. And this contributes to the discussion how?
I'm thinking she's trying to put up a case for her team winning PAC. However, the logic behind her argument can be tested by looking at past results. How has Florida done in past PAC's?
Florida won the PAC in 1995 and 1999, which actually means that, along with Maryland and Virginia, we are the only multiple-championship team. It's strange to think that in 19 years, only 7 states and DC have won titles.

Anyway, FL also finished second in '98, '01, '03, and '06, and we finished fourth in '05. So we have a good chance at making it to the finals, but as for winning it...not so sure. I wish the team the best, though! (Especially you, Emily. Panhandle represent!)

Of course, Maryland is a solid pick to win, as usual. Illinois, Missouri, and Pennsylvania should contend as well. And I seem to remember that Tennessee's team from last year was all underclassmen and they still made the finals, so if the same team returns, keep an eye out for them.

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