RESULTS: Maggie Walker wins 2007 HSNCT!

Dormant threads from the high school sections are preserved here.
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Post by evilmonkey » Wed May 30, 2007 10:07 pm

iambusyeating wrote:Feel free to discuss question specifics. The mirror attending populace knows not to read this I'm sure.
Alrighty then. Mods, if this is incorrect, feel free to delete this post.

I rang in with "Freya", and was prompted. The correct answer was "Frig".
They ruled that Freya was acceptable enough to be prompted, but they could not determine whether Freya was another name for the same diety or a different avatar altogether, so they determined that they could not award me points. I would have much preferred that they ruled against me than ruled that the question be thrown out.

EDIT: The answer listed "Frigga" and "Freya" as promptable answers.

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Post by Matt Weiner » Wed May 30, 2007 10:13 pm

It really depends on what the specific clues were, though I doubt a question at the high school level can (or should) really distinguish between the two. I definitely don't like the default "throw it out" policy of ruling on protests at NAQT, and have been burned by it myself. It seems like it's basically a Chip-like penalty for protesting--even if you're 100% correct, you still have a 50% chance of losing the game because you're going to have to get a completely new tossup instead of getting credit for your answer.

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Post by e_steinhauser » Wed May 30, 2007 10:34 pm

3D Lemmings wrote:
iambusyeating wrote:Feel free to discuss question specifics. The mirror attending populace knows not to read this I'm sure.
Alrighty then. Mods, if this is incorrect, feel free to delete this post.

I rang in with "Freya", and was prompted. The correct answer was "Frig".
They ruled that Freya was acceptable enough to be prompted, but they could not determine whether Freya was another name for the same diety or a different avatar altogether, so they determined that they could not award me points. I would have much preferred that they ruled against me than ruled that the question be thrown out.

EDIT: The answer listed "Frigga" and "Freya" as promptable answers.
A similar situation occurred in the room I was moderating. The question clearly directed the moderator to prompt on "Freya" and only listed Frigg / Frigga as acceptable answers. I don't recall how the question went, and I certainly don't know enough about the subject to render an opinion as to the correctness of the tossup.

The ruling seems pretty milquetoast, though.
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Post by Matthew D » Wed May 30, 2007 11:06 pm

It also happened in our room also, I was score keeping but it wasn't a throw out just an incorrect answer but I logged it as one that might have been a protest. So I think that must have happened in a few more of the rooms

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Post by Bigfoot isn't the pr » Wed May 30, 2007 11:27 pm

Yeah a teammate of mine buzzed in with Freya, was prompted and got the neg. The other team then buzzed in with the right answer. I understand why Freya wasn't acceptable, but whatever. We creamed them anyway
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Post by QuizBowlRonin » Thu May 31, 2007 3:36 am

Mild forms of entertainment brought to you by the San Mateo and Bergen County teams at this past ICT:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9SMQWg6d-w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7Gz5o0feVo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCDGCm6mTZc
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Post by nurgles_herald » Thu May 31, 2007 2:47 pm

3D Lemmings wrote:
iambusyeating wrote:Feel free to discuss question specifics. The mirror attending populace knows not to read this I'm sure.
Alrighty then. Mods, if this is incorrect, feel free to delete this post.

I rang in with "Freya", and was prompted. The correct answer was "Frig".
They ruled that Freya was acceptable enough to be prompted, but they could not determine whether Freya was another name for the same diety or a different avatar altogether, so they determined that they could not award me points. I would have much preferred that they ruled against me than ruled that the question be thrown out.

EDIT: The answer listed "Frigga" and "Freya" as promptable answers.
I'm just responding to this with what I can remember from reading the Usborn Book of Greek and Norse myth a couple of months ago (and habitually as a munchkin :P), but I believe that Freya was the sister of Frey, the god who ends up marrying a gigantess. Frey also had some kind of dancing sword that could fight on its own, and he gave it to some other god in order to woo the gigantess. Also, iirc, they were Aesir (or Vanir... whatever the other gods weren't), whereas Frig was Vanir. Freya also slept with the dwarves for a necklace or something. Frig didn't. They are associated with one another, but so far as I can remeber, one shouldn't be accepted for the other. That would be roughly akin to prompting on Isis when the correct answer is Horus.

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Post by No Sollositing On Premise » Thu May 31, 2007 5:38 pm

Ugh, that's not quite right. Frigg/Frigga was Odin's wife and essentially the queen of the Aesir, and a goddess of fertility and the household. Freyja was a former Vanir god of love and beauty that left the Vanir to join the Aesir along with her brother Freyr and father Njord as part of a hostage exchange in order to smooth out Vanir-Aesir relations after a war. And yes, Freyja slept with four dwarves to earn the Brisingamen (spelling could be wrong there) necklace.

But the point is, Frigg vs. Freyja shouldn't even be promptable. They are most definitely two specific goddesses. Dunno why the question had that.
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Post by Susan » Thu May 31, 2007 5:44 pm

They have some common attributes (both have falcon skins that they can use to fly, for example) and some scholars theorize that they were originally the same figure, but there are loads of clues that are specific to each goddess. It isn't hard to write an unambiguous question on either Freyja or Frigg; if the question at HSNCT didn't specify between them, I suspect it was the fault of the question rather than an irresolvable problem with asking about these two figures.

Can anyone post the text of the question? I probably read it, but I don't remember it at all.

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Post by Captain Sinico » Thu May 31, 2007 7:15 pm

Several sources of mine have Frija or Friia as an alternative name for Frigg, the Aesir fertility goddess and wife of Odin, who was the subject of the question according to my recollection. She remains as distinct as she ever was from the Vanir fertility goddess Freyja, except that a lesser-known name of the the former is apparently phonetically similar to or the same as the latter's best-known name, which led NAQT to include a prompt on that name. I think this is the source of the confusion.

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Post by BobGHHS » Thu May 31, 2007 9:19 pm

If this was posted earlier in this thread, I apologize, because I didn't feel like rifling through them all...

What was the protest about in the Dorman-State College match that required pretty much all the head honchos from NAQT to go into the side room to figure out? -- obviously SC came out on top, but I was curious what the problem was.
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Post by ieppler » Thu May 31, 2007 9:28 pm

It was an issue with a music theory tossup. I don't know anything about music theory, but if I remember correctly, it involved equivalent terms for a "perfect fourth." Someone on Dorman gave an answer that was ruled incorrect and he protested, stating that his answer (can't remember what it was) was equivalent. With the bonus points, it would have been enough to change the outcome of the game.
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Post by Gonzagapuma1 » Thu May 31, 2007 10:17 pm

Yea, I'm pretty sure the guy on Dorman said fourth and was prompted and then didn't say perfect fourth and was marked wrong and then they protested.

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Post by porcupine » Fri Jun 01, 2007 7:49 am

Yeah. Becuase it was ruled a neg and Dorman got 30 on the replacement bonus, the swing would have been 85 points, enough for them to win. It was weird, though, because at the end of the question the mod stopped the clock and chose not to read the last two words, maybe because they had the word 'perfect' in them, so it would have been a giveaway to state college.

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Post by bigmac » Fri Jun 01, 2007 8:59 am

That was a tough way to lose the match and I really sympathized with Dorman, in spite of the fact that they had just crushed us.*

Someone from Dorman said "fourth" soon after the end of the powermark in the question. One of the early clues was something akin to "the interval between most strings on a guitar" along with some other descriptions of how to play the interval on other instruments. Dorman was prompted and said "major fourth," which was not acceptable.

One issue is the confusion resulting from the presence of the word "perfect" later in the question. The reader's confusion probably came from the odd qualification that "fourth" was acceptable as the answer after the word "perfect", but only prompt-worthy before it.

Without specific instruction to do otherwise I probably would have taken "fourth" without prompting with the rationale of standard practice: if you ask a musician to play a root C natural and then its fourth, she will not hesitate to play the F natural. I do not think any musician would ask for clarification: "Wait, do you want me to play the augmented fourth or the perfect fourth?" I understand that the AP Music Theory Exam demands each interval to have a descriptor, but, unlike third, in nine cases out of ten, I think, "fourth" implies "perfect fourth".

I can see that "major fourth" is unacceptable, but Dorman protested the acceptability of "fourth" as a stand-alone answer. I do not recall any specific explanation given to them about why it wasn't. They were owed that at least.

*BTW: In pyramidal play, our team had only two losses this entire year in which we did not have at least a theoretical possibility of winning the match on the last question, including nailbiters against Gov and State College. Both of those losses came against Dorman.
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Post by ChathamNJ » Fri Jun 01, 2007 11:04 am

bigmac wrote:
Without specific instruction to do otherwise I probably would have taken "fourth" without prompting with the rationale of standard practice: if you ask a musician to play a root C natural and then its fourth, she will not hesitate to play the F natural. I do not think any musician would ask for clarification: "Wait, do you want me to play the augmented fourth or the perfect fourth?" I understand that the AP Music Theory Exam demands each interval to have a descriptor, but, unlike third, in nine cases out of ten, I think, "fourth" implies "perfect fourth".

I can see that "major fourth" is unacceptable, but Dorman protested the acceptability of "fourth" as a stand-alone answer. I do not recall any specific explanation given to them about why it wasn't. They were owed that at least.
I disagree as to the acceptability of "fourth". As a scale step, the fourth is the same in both major and minor scales, but once harmony is involved, the interval of "a fourth" is not specific enough. Augmented fourths are quite commonly found in dominant seventh chords, a staple of Western music. Diminished fourths give flavor to the harmonic minor, not to mention the "Middle Eastern" sound of non-diatonic modes.

You're right, if you ask a musician to play a fourth above C, that musician will play an F. But that musician is making a (perhaps unacknowledged) assumption that the fourth is perfect.

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Post by bigmac » Fri Jun 01, 2007 3:06 pm

Good point about chords and, granted, the musician who makes that assumption probably would be able to come up with "perfect" if prompted. It is not a correct answer in the strictest sense. I would not go so far as to say I would overturn the reader's decision, only that I could see someone accepting "fourth". There are assumptions made all the time in answers; people who answer "Julius Caesar" are making an assumption that you know which one they are speaking about. Augmented fourth is a more likely answer than one of the other JCs, but I bet you could find references to the interval that omit the word "fourth".


From the prelims:

2003 had no teams average over 350, 5 teams average over 300, and 11 teams average over 250.

2004 had 1 team average over 350, 2 teams average over 300, and 5 teams average over 250.

2005 had 1 team (guess who) average over 350 (491pp20h, actually), 5 teams average over 300, and 12 teams average over 250.

2006 had no teams average over 350, 4 teams average over 300, and 8 teams average over 250.

2007 had 3 teams average over 350, 4 teams average over 300, and 20 teams average over 250.

Many more teams put up over 250 pp20h than in year's past. Do you think it was a result of better teams, easier schedules, or easier questions?
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Post by BuzzerZen » Fri Jun 01, 2007 4:07 pm

I think it is the result of more teams. :razz:
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Post by Bigfoot isn't the pr » Fri Jun 01, 2007 4:28 pm

Better teams. Now that more schools are getting into the routine of training their teams we will see even more teams scoring higher. The growth of QB as an activity (generally) creates better teams
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Post by DumbJaques » Fri Jun 01, 2007 4:34 pm

I don't think there's any question that it has to do with the easier schedule such a massive field leads to and progressively easier questions. The questions in 2005 were easier than 06. I know Guy, and Dallas, and Charlie, and they're all really good players, but I don't think they'd put up 30 powers on last year's set. Of course, I've yet to actually hear this year's, so I can't completely judge it accurately. In any event, no one can argue that schedules haven't become easier. I would point you to Richard Montgomery B's 2005 schedule, which saw 10 prelim rounds including a win against Mission San Jose (4th overall), a win against dupont manual (7th overall), wins against dunbar A and dunbar B (both top 30, if memory serves), and losses to State College A (3rd overall), TJ B (11th overall, I think), and Lakeside (2nd overall). Tends to cause the ppg to take a hit, I would think.

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Post by Matt Weiner » Fri Jun 01, 2007 5:03 pm

It's more meaningful to look at points out of points available for various quartiles. Whether the best team converts 500 PPG or 400 PPG from one year to the next doesn't really mean much about the average difficulty.

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Post by wd4gdz » Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:44 pm

myamphigory wrote:Can anyone post the text of the question? I probably read it, but I don't remember it at all.
Saxo Grammaticus describes this goddess' liaison with a slave as revenge for her husband's infidelities. Her husband shares her with her brothers-in-law, Vili and Ve. Another myth shows her extracting a promise not to hurt her (*) son from every living thing but mistletoe. This queen of the Aesir is the mother of Balder. For 10 points - name this wife of Odin whom scholars suggest may be an avatar of Freya.
answer: Frigga or Frigg (prompt on Freya, Friia, Frija, or Frea; do not accept Frey)

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Post by Matt Weiner » Fri Jun 01, 2007 7:11 pm

If it says right in the question that they're the same, then the answer line can't say they are not. That just doesn't make sense.

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Post by No Sollositing On Premise » Fri Jun 01, 2007 8:46 pm

I don't think it's wise to even mention Freyja in that clue. It causes the answer line to contradict the question, as Matt pointed out, and there are an ample number of earlier clues that completely outrule Freyja as a possible answer (such as the mention of Vili and Ve as her brothers-in-law). Even if Freyja and Frigga have similar names or similar origins according to certain sources (I don't doubt that it's true), I've always read of the two as completely seperate goddesses - bottom line, I don't like that question. Rar.
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Post by bigmac » Fri Jun 01, 2007 10:09 pm

It's more meaningful to look at points out of points available for various quartiles. Whether the best team converts 500 PPG or 400 PPG from one year to the next doesn't really mean much about the average difficulty.
Do you mean average difficulty of the questions or average strength of the field? My main question does not concern either, but whether "good teams" are getting better, that is, finding some way to compare the top twenty or so teams from year to year. Easier schedules probably do bump up the scores of the top twenty, but I am less convinced that the questions are substantially different in difficulty from last year. The numbers to look at would of course be bonus conversion and powers per game, but I do not see those conveniently posted.
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Post by quizbowllee » Sat Jun 02, 2007 12:43 am

Perhaps a separate thread should be made to discuss and critique the actual HSNCT questions...

At any rate, I wanted to throw in my opinion of the "perfect 4th" question. I can't find the specific question in my set, but I'll keep looking. However, I do recall an early clue that stated that guitar strings were tuned at this interval. Had I been playing, I would've negged. I would've said "5th". Granted, I know nect-to-nothing about musical theory, but I have been playing guitar (professionally, even) for 13 years. Going down the strings in standard tuning, a guitar goes EADGBE. Only the B string is tuned to a 4th interval above the string preceding it. The five other strings are tuned to 5ths.

Again, I may be WAAAYYYY off here. I suck at musical theory....

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Post by pray for elves » Sat Jun 02, 2007 4:16 am

quizbowllee wrote:Perhaps a separate thread should be made to discuss and critique the actual HSNCT questions...

At any rate, I wanted to throw in my opinion of the "perfect 4th" question. I can't find the specific question in my set, but I'll keep looking. However, I do recall an early clue that stated that guitar strings were tuned at this interval. Had I been playing, I would've negged. I would've said "5th". Granted, I know nect-to-nothing about musical theory, but I have been playing guitar (professionally, even) for 13 years. Going down the strings in standard tuning, a guitar goes EADGBE. Only the B string is tuned to a 4th interval above the string preceding it. The five other strings are tuned to 5ths.

Again, I may be WAAAYYYY off here. I suck at musical theory....
You're looking at it backwards - from the bottom to the top, the strings are tuned to EADGBE, so you have E to A going up (perfect fourth), A to D (perfect fourth)...etc., except for G to B, which is a major third.

Unless, of course, you've got some really weird guitar.

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Post by Deviant Insider » Sat Jun 02, 2007 7:54 am

With the Frigg question, I don't see how "scholars suggest may be an avatar of Freya" is the same thing as saying that she is equivalent to Freya. Some scholar suggest that Buddha may be an avatar of Vishnu, but that doesn't mean you can answer Buddha if a question asks for the Hindu Supreme Being.

With the music question, I wish the question would have started by stating it was asking for a two-word answer. It sounds like the question is a hose as written and that the Dorman student buzzed in at an appropriate time given his level of knowledge. The problem isn't really the -5 points, it's that his teammates who know more music theory couldn't buzz in a second later with the answer.

As far as question difficulty, the median 5-5 team in 2006 (Maggie Walker C) averaged 161.60 PP20H. The median 5-5 team in 2007 (Central Hardin/Brookwood B) averaged 159.54 PP20H. In 2006, there were 18 teams below 100 PP20H. In 2007, there were 30 teams below 100 PP20H. In other words, the changes given upthread regarding stats of top teams seem only to apply to top teams. This suggests that question difficulty did not change significantly.

One possible explanation for the increase is the development of good quizbowl in the Midwest: Illinois, Minnesota, Missouri, and Ohio all had high-scoring teams this year, and they generally haven't in the past. Combine them with Michigan, which traditionally has done well but this year had 3 teams at 250+, and you've accounted for a significant part of the difference. The return to powerhouse status of Dorman and the DC teams also played a factor. Additionally, the elite stats are better this year because this probably is the first time that NAQT attracted every elite team in the country.

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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Sat Jun 02, 2007 6:48 pm

http://naqt.com/hsnct/2007/results/aggregate.html

Unfortunately I didn't see one on 2006.
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Post by cornfused » Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:42 pm

Interesting stat:
158. Dixie County (FL) 2 8 0 430 43.00 1420 142.00 36.60
As in... they averaged 36.60 points, not enough to place them in the top 68 individually. And they still won two games.

Meanwhile, Maggie Walker A took town 10 times that PP20H, and still lost one.

I think this proves the "everybody wins, everybody loses" theory.

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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:53 pm

Wow, they got zeroed by a team that went 3-7 (DuBois Area) and got zeroed themselves by Eden Prairie B. There is a certain level of teams who attend HSNCT that are so bad that I want to know why they even came in the first place. Does anybody else wonder this? I know it's incredibly rude, but it begs asking.
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Post by MLafer » Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:12 pm

charlieDfromNKC wrote:Wow, they got zeroed by a team that went 3-7 (DuBois Area) and got zeroed themselves by Eden Prairie B. There is a certain level of teams who attend HSNCT that are so bad that I want to know why they even came in the first place. Does anybody else wonder this? I know it's incredibly rude, but it begs asking.
Agreed, it's like if some high schoolers tried to play the Chicago Open

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Post by Matthew D » Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:02 pm

The thing is, even if they did get zeroed, they are still attempting to play. The big thing would be if they take the lessons that they learned from attending and attempt to do something about finishing as low as they did. I really don't have a problem with a team doing poorly at a tournament UNLESS they do time in and time out, if that happens then there is something fundamentally wrong with the program and needs to be addressed before they decide to take their game on the road.

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Post by ChathamNJ » Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:31 am

quizbowllee wrote:I do recall an early clue that stated that guitar strings were tuned at this interval. Had I been playing, I would've negged. I would've said "5th". Granted, I know nect-to-nothing about musical theory, but I have been playing guitar (professionally, even) for 13 years. Going down the strings in standard tuning, a guitar goes EADGBE. Only the B string is tuned to a 4th interval above the string preceding it. The five other strings are tuned to 5ths.

Again, I may be WAAAYYYY off here. I suck at musical theory....
Your guitar is fine, it's a matter of terminology. In standard tuning, each string is tuned to the fifth fret of the string before it, with the exception of the B string which is tuned to the fourth fret of the G string. (huh-huh he said "G string") But the name of the interval is a different thing than the number of half-steps (which of course is what the frets count).

Hope that helps.

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Post by grapesmoker » Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:33 pm

wd4gdz wrote:Saxo Grammaticus describes this goddess' liaison with a slave as revenge for her husband's infidelities. Her husband shares her with her brothers-in-law, Vili and Ve. Another myth shows her extracting a promise not to hurt her (*) son from every living thing but mistletoe. This queen of the Aesir is the mother of Balder. For 10 points - name this wife of Odin whom scholars suggest may be an avatar of Freya.
answer: Frigga or Frigg (prompt on Freya, Friia, Frija, or Frea; do not accept Frey)
This is all kinds of wrong, starting with Matt's point about having a promptable answer in the question itself. Also, as far as I can tell, nothing in this question actually identifies Freya (I haven't cross-checked my Saxo Grammaticus for this, though). I can't see how Freya should be promptable in this case.
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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:47 pm

MLafer wrote:
charlieDfromNKC wrote:Wow, they got zeroed by a team that went 3-7 (DuBois Area) and got zeroed themselves by Eden Prairie B. There is a certain level of teams who attend HSNCT that are so bad that I want to know why they even came in the first place. Does anybody else wonder this? I know it's incredibly rude, but it begs asking.
Agreed, it's like if some high schoolers tried to play the Chicago Open
Difference there being I make myself fully aware of how hard the question are going to be, and that the competition will be immensely difficult. However, I should also point out that I'm the only high schooler on the team.
And don't give me anything about "coaches know what they're up against." We played Porter Consolidated (who attended HSNCT) at U Tulsa's tournament. While we played their B team so it is expected that they wouldn't be as good, we still gave an awful beating. Afterwards, their coach said to us "I had no idea any team could be that good." (I should note that we aren't that good, we just had the most NKC-friendly packet of the day because we got a ton more powers). And they attended nationals, and if they had no clue in the world anyone was as good as us, then they certainly had no clue that anyone could be SOOO much better than us (cough Maggie Walker). I severely doubt these teams truly practice on National level questions, and if they do there must be something not getting through that they need to learn this stuff to do well.
Another point of this is that, while it is good to get exposure, there is a certain level at which losing and being clueless yet still going to the top events ceases all effectiveness. Case in point - when I joined NKC's quizbowl team at the end of my freshman year they were basically the worst team NKC's ever had, a very far cry from the 4 time state champions led by Mike and Andy Wehrman. I came in to practice and massacred these players on my very first day, and I wasn't even good then. With these players, there got to be a point where practices only benefited me because they couldn't compete with the n00b and they ceased to care. These players were mostly juniors and almost none of them came back the next year. Also, I should note that they hardly won anything the entire season and in speaking with them they lost any motivation to improve with that bad a performance. I would be shocked if the same doesn't apply here.
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08
"I won't say more because I know some of you parse everything I say." - Jeremy Gibbs

"At one TJ tournament the neg prize was the Hampshire College ultimate frisbee team (nude) calender featuring one Evan Silberman. In retrospect that could have been a disaster." - Harry White

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Matthew D
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Post by Matthew D » Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:03 pm

Again the magic word there was "CARE" and that was what I was meaning by my post, there are going to be teams that get killed in tournaments and if they attempt to fix things on their end, then hey the whole going to nationals and getting killed had the effect it was supposed to have... improvement.
Even if you practice on national level questions until you are faced with a team that is truly much better than you are, you have a sense of false hope that you are able to play and the "butt beating" that you get for that over confidence in your abilities can either be a great motivator or take your team into a very dark area of uncaring and hopefully quitting to keep the rest of the team from suffering

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Post by orangecrayon » Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:29 pm

In the case of at least two of those teams (am thinking specifically of Porter Consolidated and Warner, both small schools from Oklahoma who won maybe two or three games each), this year was their first time to qualify for any kind of national tournament, including :chip:. The coaches at both of those schools probably didn't plan on doing exceptionally well, but it's a huge deal for their school district to be able say that they had a team in any activity quality for a national championship.

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swwFCqb
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Post by swwFCqb » Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:23 am

Other than on the 2007 HSNCT results page on naqt.com, is there any way to access the podcasts of all the rounds (because the link on that page doesn't seem to work for me)?
Steven Wellstead
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Case Western Reserve University '11
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