Minnesota '07-'08

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Post by klwalton33 » Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:55 pm

Duke Togo wrote:
klwalton33 wrote:...a fair comparison can never be made year-to-year. It just can't be done.

Was EP good last year? Yes. Were they unbeatable in MN? No.
Is EP good this year? Yes. Are they unbeatable in MN? Absolutely not.

So nothing is changed. Same with Wayzata -- great team last year, great team this year (Rohan or no).
...
My point being that both EP and Wayzata were good last year, both are good this year, with a different team makeup. Would Wayzata of 2007 beat Wayzata of 2008 in a head-to-head matchup? We won't ever know. Would EP of 2007 beat EP of 2008? It's impossible to tell. So to sit and say one version of a team is better than another year's version is a statement that can't ever be accurately measured.

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Post by Wall of Ham » Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:22 am

klwalton33 wrote:
Duke Togo wrote:
klwalton33 wrote:...a fair comparison can never be made year-to-year. It just can't be done.

Was EP good last year? Yes. Were they unbeatable in MN? No.
Is EP good this year? Yes. Are they unbeatable in MN? Absolutely not.

So nothing is changed. Same with Wayzata -- great team last year, great team this year (Rohan or no).
...
My point being that both EP and Wayzata were good last year, both are good this year, with a different team makeup. Would Wayzata of 2007 beat Wayzata of 2008 in a head-to-head matchup? We won't ever know. Would EP of 2007 beat EP of 2008? It's impossible to tell. So to sit and say one version of a team is better than another year's version is a statement that can't ever be accurately measured.
Kill Bill 2 wrote: BUDD: Which "R" are you filled with, Relief or Regret?

ELLE: A little bit of both.

BUDD: Bull****. I'm sure you do feel a little bit of both.
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the other. The question was ... which one?
While a rock and a brick are both heavy, just because you don't know their exact weights doesn't mean they weigh the same. While two quizbowl teams are pretty good, just because they can't face off doesn't mean they are equally good. Sure, they can never be compared head to head in reality, nor can we ever say EP 2007 will beat EP 2008 58.3% of the time, but it is still possible to speculate on "who's better", based on knowledge of both teams. It is indeed all hearsay, and can never be truly accurate, but in this competitive sport it is "interesting" (I'm not sure thats the right word) to predict who's better than who.

Sorry, I understand the need to cool things down a bit in this thread, but not with the reasoning of "they can never be compared, so they are not comparable." I really shouldn't play Simcity2000 all night.

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Post by cdcarter » Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:12 pm

I ran some stats for the top players in each division, doing a linear regression of opposing teams PPG vs. the players points scored against that team. You can see the results here: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key= ... CFuNS1-Oag

Unfortunately, the data isn't great yet. With a maximum of 4 data points, the data isn't as reliable as it should be. The numbers I have found most interesting are the slope (a). You can draw some interesting conclusions about a players style from them (how the do under pressure/are the specialized vs. general knowledge etc...), also the "adjusted" column. This is the predicted points scored for the mean of all teams in the division.

The most obvious conclusion I can draw from this is that the North division had some interesting pairings first round, and that I believe the top scorers will switch around a lot before the end of the season.

Also, the second place scorer in each division has a positive slope. Coincidence?

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Post by Gautam » Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:50 am

I'm not sure if those are the best variables that should be considered, or I don't really see what correlation between those variables means.

You can look at Andrew Hart's discussion on win shares if that might interest you
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Post by cdcarter » Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:46 am

Well, the opponent team's level of difficulty should be at least somewhat explanatory to how a player will score against them. Most players had a downward sloping curve, as the opponent gets harder, the player will score less. With how few rounds there are, and how much of a team's score depends on the lightning round in this format, there's not a lot you can do in the way of individual stats at this point. I'll be interested in seeing how they change over time.

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Post by theMoMA » Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:11 am

cdcarter wrote:Well, the opponent team's level of difficulty should be at least somewhat explanatory to how a player will score against them. Most players had a downward sloping curve, as the opponent gets harder, the player will score less. With how few rounds there are, and how much of a team's score depends on the lightning round in this format, there's not a lot you can do in the way of individual stats at this point. I'll be interested in seeing how they change over time.
This has actually been used, at least in a similar way, before. Paul Litvak developed what he called the "slope-intercept" stat, which basically does what you're doing...plot the PPG against the quality of the opponent.

I'm not a huge fan of the usefulness of this kind of stat in general, because even over 10 or so games, the amount of games you play against "good" teams is probably only 1 or 2. Especially in a field like the MNHSQB regions, where there are often a sharp division between the really good teams and the rest of the field, player numbers against the best teams are often subject to lots of random variance.

Also, it's a bit confusing to follow exactly what a, b, and adjusted mean. Perhaps if you explained it a bit better, it'd be easier for me to understand what you're trying to do and give suggestions.

As to the second-place scorers having positive slopes, I think you'll find that players on more balanced teams that have teammates making substantive contributions are more likely not to tail off as the competition gets better. And those players often get crowded out by teammates too much to earn top-scorer awards.

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Post by naturalistic phallacy » Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:53 am

gkandlikar wrote:I'm not sure if those are the best variables that should be considered, or I don't really see what correlation between those variables means.

You can look at Andrew Hart's discussion on win shares if that might interest you
I do think win shares would be something interesting to analyze in MNHSQB, especially to measure the promise of newer players.
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Post by sam.peterson » Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:39 pm

It would be cool to organize a MN HS singles tournament sometime using appropriately difficult questions. This would definitely be more telling than any other statistical analysis of individual strength. Does anybody else like the idea? I know it occurred to some extent at the Deep Bench tournament last year, but that only involved a limited number of the players at the tournament, which was only open to a few teams. Depending on how many people are interested, it could follow whatever format seems best.
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Post by cdcarter » Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:57 pm

theMoMA wrote: Also, it's a bit confusing to follow exactly what a, b, and adjusted mean. Perhaps if you explained it a bit better, it'd be easier for me to understand what you're trying to do and give suggestions.

As to the second-place scorers having positive slopes, I think you'll find that players on more balanced teams that have teammates making substantive contributions are more likely not to tail off as the competition gets better. And those players often get crowded out by teammates too much to earn top-scorer awards.
a is the slope of the line, that's all it really is. But the closer to 0 it is, that means the player gets about the same points for any difficulty, which would lead to the conclusion that they are specialized in one or two categories, and pretty much always get them right. A positive slope could imply that the player is more aggressive or just does better under pressure. A general knowledge player tends to have a negative curve.

b is the y-intercept, so essentially the predicted number of points versus an imaginary team that doesn't get any questions right. This could be a predictor about how they would do if the team played that packet/set against each other.

"Adjusted" is a terrible name. Essentially, it is predicted PPG for the mean score of the entire division. This could imply bad matchings, or the level the player should be at. Note this is usually pretty close to actual PPG, which (kind of) suggests the regression is reasonably close to the real data.

None of these numbers stand well on their own or with each other. You have to look at the teams played, and other factors, but it does provide some interesting information.

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Post by OctagonJoe » Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:18 am

Does anybody know what's up with GINVIT tomorrow, as it is supposedly going to be a bad storm (or so I hear)? Our coach is considering canceling, to my chagrin, as she doesn't want to be overly risky.

Also, assuming the storm of the century does not stop the competition, does anybody have predictions that won't cause anger/riots/tea parties? I'm excited to see the first non-A tourney of the year go down.
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Post by theMoMA » Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:32 am

GINVIT is still on, and we hope that all teams brave the snowy trek back to play.

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Post by theMoMA » Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:42 am

Yes. That is actually very similar to what Paul Litvak did (perhaps you had read up on that).

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Post by OctagonJoe » Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:18 am

Wayzata will not be attending GINVIT, unless by some miracle I can get A team to undermine our coach's authority. I guess, in a state where we don't often get snow and are so unprepared for it, this makes sense. Hopefully everyone will still enjoy playing without us.
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Post by naturalistic phallacy » Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:28 am

OctagonJoe wrote:Wayzata will not be attending GINVIT, unless by some miracle I can get A team to undermine our coach's authority. I guess, in a state where we don't often get snow and are so unprepared for it, this makes sense. Hopefully everyone will still enjoy playing without us.
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Post by Mitu » Sat Dec 01, 2007 10:12 pm

EP A lost in the final to EP B confirm/deny?
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Post by OctagonJoe » Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:12 am

As much as can be said in the form of overall results would be nice for those of us who missed, since there's no knowing when the stats will be put online. Also, the thing Mitu asked about, if he was serious.
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Post by theattachment » Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:14 am

Confirm with an asterisk.

Since Wayzata stayed home and failed to go to the tea party (which was enjoyed thoroughly with Darjeeling and a little Green Jasmine for balance), EP decided to annex a team from Minnetonka to get 5 teams and stack the B team. We ended up going with the old Fantastic Four of Shonts, Anant, and Sam on B with Manuel, bumping Parry up to A. EP A went number one in the prelims, followed by the Fantastic Four, St Thomas A and Minnetonka A (I think in that order, STA and MA may be different).

My commentary is that B probably had more general knowledge players while A had Igor for science and me for trash/Jesus, giving them a slight head to head edge if anyone isn't firing on all cylinders. Not only did Four have an excellent round against us, but Igor, for the most part, was at -5 for the first three-quarters of the match. It created the perfect storm. Credit to them, neg five for Igor.

EDIT: As for actual stats, I did confirm that top four order, which followed to the semifinals. I think the only upset I heard of was Mounds Park beating that one school from Wisconsin in the 8-9 match, but I didn't hear of any of the matches on the other half of the draw. Michael took top scorer with something like 90 some a game. Because I didn't look at other teams, I only have EP A's prelim stats on me. We got around 585-30 PPG in the prelims, averaging 29.33 PPtossup and getting either 39 or 40 powers.

Other anecdotal evidence: Michael only had one misspeak all day, even though it was a prodigiously bad neg. Around halftime between EP A and Minnetonka B, one of their guys thought it would be funny to do crap buzzes on every single question he could. He went on to neg seven times in ten questions, contributing to their total of eight in the round.

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Post by Gautam » Sat Dec 15, 2007 2:16 pm

Does anybody have a scoop on when GINVIT stats will be posted?
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Post by OctagonJoe » Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:03 pm

In regards to stats, does anyone know what should be done if there is an error in the stats? Or does it not really matter?
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Post by Byko » Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:55 pm

gkandlikar wrote:Does anybody have a scoop on when GINVIT stats will be posted?
Take a look at http://www.naqt.com/stats and there's something there. Maybe in the next week or two I'll get it included in my rankings.
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Post by theMoMA » Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:24 pm

GINVIT stats.

(to see game-by-game results, click on the team names)

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Post by Canadajin » Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:43 pm

GINVIT stats.

(to see game-by-game results, click on the team names)
Sooooooooooooooooooooo shameful... :sad:

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Post by Gautam » Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:34 am

That's pretty cool. Now they should start aggregating stats for the rest of the nation..... too much MN goin' on in there.
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Post by OctagonJoe » Thu Jan 03, 2008 8:29 pm

Any predictions for TOMCAT?(by which I mean who do people think will come in 2nd, 3rd, etc.?) My predictions have Chaska, Minnetonka, and Wayzata rounding out the top 4, in some order (currently done alphabetically).

Updatewise, it seems Wayzata will be sending 3 teams, with our A team almost normal (substitute Rohit/Guarav for Eli). Our coach, in a move that will certainly improve her current low ranking, managed to get us a third team and allowed A team to play. Albeit, it was her choice previously to disallow A team's play, but she has seemingly come to her senses.
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Post by sam.peterson » Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:31 am

I've heard that this year's TOMCAT questions may be longer and more pyramidal in structure in comparison to last year's questions, but I don't know if this will hold true.

Regardless, I think the format could make for some quirky results. Chaska beat Orono and Minnetonka at SOCIAL, but the games were quite close. Wayzata seems to have struggled against Orono and Minnetonka but has had more impressive overall stats than Chaska. I think that head-to-head, Chaska will beat Minnetonka and Orono, if we play them, and that a Wayzata-Chaska game will be too close to predict.

The main thing I would add to Carsten's post is the inclusion of Orono somewhere in the top five. Wayzata B could also do some damage. If the playoff bracket results in places that appropriately rank teams in terms of skill, I predict an arrangement along the lines of 1) EP 2/3) Chaska/Wayzata 4) Minnetonka 5) Orono. In reality, I think that the placing will ultimately be determined by the arrangement of the playoff bracket, which may or may not allow such an order to result. And, of course, the short tossup format will make everything a bit weird and unpredictable. I don't think that any solid predictions can be made, other than that EP will probably win and Chaska, Wayzata, Orono, and Minnetonka will finish in the top five.
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Post by theattachment » Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:50 pm

Update for EP - While it will be less skewed than at GINVIT, we're planning to do A & B with the same style of thinking: mix evenly the six players that we revolve on A. This basically will amount to Michael/Igor/Manuel/Either Shonts, Anant, Sam, or Me on A and the other three in that either/or situation with one extra on B. We're doing basically an every really good sophomore team for our C team.

My guess is that it'll end up something like this: EP A will likely be top seed, followed by tossup of EP B, Wayzata A, Chaska A and Minnetonka A and some unknown spoiler (Orono? DLS?) in some order. I don't think it's a fluke that the EP B of Anant, Shonts, Sam and Manuel did so well at GINVIT; the reason they don't score as highly on A is because they get outbuzzed by a word or two by Michael. On their own, they light it up, which has been evident in practice this week. I'm excited to see what happens.

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Post by OctagonJoe » Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:26 pm

Even though I'm guessing that most people who read this forum where at TOMCAT, basic results as best as I can recall:
1. Eden Prairie A
2. Chaska A
3. Wayzata A
4. Edina A
6. Wayzata B
8. Minnetonka A

I believe Orono A was in there and then I can't recall the other team. I was surprised by the results beyond the first three teams, but I'm going to guess that the tournament's format may be the cause. I thought the questions were all right and good for practicing quick reflexes, but I don't know how geographically exclusive the series is so I won't say more yet (Is TOMCAT the only place that is going to use these packets?).
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Post by cdcarter » Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:53 pm

I wasn't sure how well the card system worked out, we had a weird case where South A won more games than us (South B), but because of byes, we had an even record, and we looked at the card system spreadsheet, and it was a possibility for us to get to the last round (theoretically, not if we actually had to play), and there was no way for them to. But you always run into stuff with any format.

I thought the questions were pretty good, but I didn't like how much power was given to the end of the rounds with 25pt tossups that were in some cases generally easier than the earlier questions. My only major complaint besides a few interesting prompt/no prompt choices that I heard about, was how many damn river tossups there were (and you know how I felt about this if you played South B in any of the later rounds).

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Post by klwalton33 » Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:54 pm

I believe St Thomas A was 5th and Orono A was 7th.

Nice job today everyone!

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Post by Auks Ran Ova » Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:01 pm

OctagonJoe wrote:Is TOMCAT the only place that is going to use these packets?
No, they're adapted from various TV show and other short-question sets that NAQT produces. Plus there's the standard NAQT "don't talk about this until forever" thing in effect too.

Good job to all the teams in attendance, especially EP A for winning. I was also glad to see Chaska finishing strongly once again, reviving our "proud" tradition of finishing second in things.
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Post by Gautam » Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:49 pm

For the purposes of this tournament, I don't think byes meant anything... I think the entire system for the rankings was based on Win/Loss record from actual games played, which is what happens at the HSNCT. Visit this thread for a discussion of the system. Other than that, it was a good tournament. I tried to talk with all the teams I could and all seemed to like the tourney.

As for questions, they were ok for the most part. They were as pyramidal as can be. However, I thought there was a bit too much math in this set. (Look who's talking.... Approximately 1 in 10 questions IIRC.) The tricky thing with these small 1-2 line questions is the placement of pronouns. I thought it was done fairly well, but IMO there were a few questions where earlier placement of pronouns would have definitely helped. I can't remember specifics off my head right now, but I recall feeling like prompting the players because they were very close and the question hadn't narrowed down soon enough.

I must say Macalester does a good job of providing these free tournaments. :wink:
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Post by cdcarter » Sun Jan 06, 2008 12:32 am

gkandlikar wrote:For the purposes of this tournament, I don't think byes meant anything... I think the entire system for the rankings was based on Win/Loss record from actual games played, which is what happens at the HSNCT. Visit this thread for a discussion of the system. Other than that, it was a good tournament. I tried to talk with all the teams I could and all seemed to like the tourney.
Well that would make South B even worse than South A, with a better card then. But that's just a possibility in the system. It was a good tournament.

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Post by naturalistic phallacy » Sun Jan 06, 2008 4:17 pm

Good job to all who placed at TOMCAT. The tournament went pretty smoothly down in Old Main where I was stationed. There were a couple of teams that dropped out leaving me with three byes in a row, but that gave me an opportunity to see more teams play. My one main complaint about this set was the biography tossups that opened up with alternative names for people, but honestly, only so much can be done with 1.5 line TUs.
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Post by sam.peterson » Sun Jan 06, 2008 7:02 pm

I know I shouldn't mention the actual question, but this one was the only one of the day that I thought was fundamentally flawed. Something like this: "He was taken as a prisoner of war by the Germans and brought to Dresden," *I buzz* "Billy Pilgrim?", moderator, "No. FTP, name this author who wrote about Billy Pilgrim in Slaughterhouse Five". As I have read the novel, and recently double-checked the plot, I am certain that the clue also applies to Billy Pilgrim, and I've heard that many other players fell into this trap too.

Can anybody definitively tell me if NAQT character tossups are always written in the present tense, as opposed to questions on real people in which past events are described in the past tense?
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Post by Strongside » Sun Jan 06, 2008 7:10 pm

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Post by theattachment » Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:40 pm

sam.peterson wrote:I know I shouldn't mention the actual question, but this one was the only one of the day that I thought was fundamentally flawed. Something like this: "He was taken as a prisoner of war by the Germans and brought to Dresden," *I buzz* "Billy Pilgrim?", moderator, "No. FTP, name this author who wrote about Billy Pilgrim in Slaughterhouse Five". As I have read the novel, and recently double-checked the plot, I am certain that the clue also applies to Billy Pilgrim, and I've heard that many other players fell into this trap too.

Can anybody definitively tell me if NAQT character tossups are always written in the present tense, as opposed to questions on real people in which past events are described in the past tense?
Short answer: Yes.
Long answer: Yes, and that's how the English language works. The way my English teacher taught it is that regardless of plot context, if it's mentioned in a book it's a constant fact, putting it in the present tense. If it happened in life it's in past.

As for tournament criticism, I concur with Bernadette in that there were way too many "Here's his real name. Who do we know him as?" questions. In addition, I think it was packet four that had three really easy questions if you're a Minnesotan that are decently ungettable if you're not from here. Granted, it's a custom set, but I dislike too much geographic bias.

That said, yesterday in room OR100 I saw my quiz bowl past flash before my eyes. And I saw something else: I saw quiz bowl future and its name is Sam Peterson. And on an afternoon where I needed to feel young, he made me feel like I was hearing one-line tossups for the very first time.

Seriously, Sam Peterson is the future of Minnesota QB. Any comparison that people have made between him and the greats of the storied Chaska program are understatements. He's developing at the fastest rate I've ever heard of from this state to the point where I want to get in at the U of M just to read for him next year. He's scary already, and I can't imagine where he'll be in the near future.

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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:05 am

theattachment wrote:Short answer: Yes.
Long answer: Yes, and that's how the English language works. The way my English teacher taught it is that regardless of plot context, if it's mentioned in a book it's a constant fact, putting it in the present tense. If it happened in life it's in past.
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Post by sam.peterson » Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:08 am

theattachment wrote:
sam.peterson wrote:I know I shouldn't mention the actual question, but this one was the only one of the day that I thought was fundamentally flawed. Something like this: "He was taken as a prisoner of war by the Germans and brought to Dresden," *I buzz* "Billy Pilgrim?", moderator, "No. FTP, name this author who wrote about Billy Pilgrim in Slaughterhouse Five". As I have read the novel, and recently double-checked the plot, I am certain that the clue also applies to Billy Pilgrim, and I've heard that many other players fell into this trap too.

Can anybody definitively tell me if NAQT character tossups are always written in the present tense, as opposed to questions on real people in which past events are described in the past tense?
Short answer: Yes.
Long answer: Yes, and that's how the English language works. The way my English teacher taught it is that regardless of plot context, if it's mentioned in a book it's a constant fact, putting it in the present tense. If it happened in life it's in past.

As for tournament criticism, I concur with Bernadette in that there were way too many "Here's his real name. Who do we know him as?" questions. In addition, I think it was packet four that had three really easy questions if you're a Minnesotan that are decently ungettable if you're not from here. Granted, it's a custom set, but I dislike too much geographic bias.

That said, yesterday in room OR100 I saw my quiz bowl past flash before my eyes. And I saw something else: I saw quiz bowl future and its name is Sam Peterson. And on an afternoon where I needed to feel young, he made me feel like I was hearing one-line tossups for the very first time.

Seriously, Sam Peterson is the future of Minnesota QB. Any comparison that people have made between him and the greats of the storied Chaska program are understatements. He's developing at the fastest rate I've ever heard of from this state to the point where I want to get in at the U of M just to read for him next year. He's scary already, and I can't imagine where he'll be in the near future.
Thanks Colin, I appreciate the grammatical clarification as well as the recognition.
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Post by theMoMA » Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:37 am

Tossups on the backstory of characters in novels might be in the past tense. And a player shouldn't have to rely on tense to distinguish between answers.

While this set was generally pretty good, there were a few systematic things that I thought could be improved upon. There were quite a few tossups that were ambiguous and should have had alternate answers or prompts (the one on Balzac that listed characters from the Human Comedy with no pronouns, but refused to accept or prompt on "Human Comedy" is an example that jumps to mind).

There were also many tossups that began "What [nationality] [profession]..." which helps no good players buzz, narrows the answer space without providing real clues, and induces inexperienced players to think that "Russian author" always means "Leo Tolstoy."

Finally, this set seems to suffer from one of the things that I notice often in NAQT sets, where it's assumed that "1921 novel" is a helpful clue. In reality, it's just an unhelpful piece of information that no one is buzzing off of, but which is often relied upon as a "distinguishing piece of information" to invalidate other answers. I'm not a big fan of using unbuzzable clues as distinguishing pieces of information, so I'd like to see this practice end.

I saw plenty of fine teams come through my room, culminating in an exciting match between De Le Salle A and Central A. I was also glad to be able to see the exciting final match. I'm not exactly sure how predictive this tournament is of Chaska's future competitiveness against Eden Prairie because of the nature of the questions, but I was very impressed by the early-clue buzzes on both sides.

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Post by cdcarter » Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:37 pm

sam.peterson wrote:I know I shouldn't mention the actual question, but this one was the only one of the day that I thought was fundamentally flawed. Something like this: "He was taken as a prisoner of war by the Germans and brought to Dresden," *I buzz* "Billy Pilgrim?", moderator, "No. FTP, name this author who wrote about Billy Pilgrim in Slaughterhouse Five". As I have read the novel, and recently double-checked the plot, I am certain that the clue also applies to Billy Pilgrim, and I've heard that many other players fell into this trap too.
I don't have the packet in front of me right now, but I am pretty sure the question stated he was captured at the Battle of the Bulge, which is uniquely identifying for Vonnegut.

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Post by Mitu » Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:39 pm

cdcarter wrote:I don't have the packet in front of me right now, but I am pretty sure the question stated he was captured at the Battle of the Bulge, which is uniquely identifying for Vonnegut.
The question did state Battle of the Bulge, as I recall Carsten getting it off of that clue.
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Post by sam.peterson » Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:47 pm

Mitu wrote:
cdcarter wrote:I don't have the packet in front of me right now, but I am pretty sure the question stated he was captured at the Battle of the Bulge, which is uniquely identifying for Vonnegut.
The question did state Battle of the Bulge, as I recall Carsten getting it off of that clue.
Okay, thanks for letting me know. Lame tossup though, agreed?
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Post by cdcarter » Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:56 pm

sam.peterson wrote:
Mitu wrote:
cdcarter wrote:I don't have the packet in front of me right now, but I am pretty sure the question stated he was captured at the Battle of the Bulge, which is uniquely identifying for Vonnegut.
The question did state Battle of the Bulge, as I recall Carsten getting it off of that clue.
Okay, thanks for letting me know. Lame tossup though, agreed?
Lame.

EDITED for stupidity
Last edited by cdcarter on Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Mitu » Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:08 pm

sam.peterson wrote:
Mitu wrote:
cdcarter wrote:I don't have the packet in front of me right now, but I am pretty sure the question stated he was captured at the Battle of the Bulge, which is uniquely identifying for Vonnegut.
The question did state Battle of the Bulge, as I recall Carsten getting it off of that clue.
Okay, thanks for letting me know. Lame tossup though, agreed?
Definitely.
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Post by OctagonJoe » Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:41 pm

Sorry to burst the happiness bubble, but Pilgrim was also captured at the Battle of the Bulge. Pilgrim=Vonnegut for the most part, except that Vonnegut is also a character in SH5 and then, debatably, the whole time traveling stuff. I had not considered Pilgrim as an answer until Sam posted, but there is no reason Pilgrim should have been unacceptable at that point, to the extent in which I can recall the beginning of the question. I think the main reason Pilgrim never crossed my mind was because this was TOMCAT, so Vonnegut is much easier for inexperienced players to get than a character in one of his books (albeit his most famous work). I think Pilgrim, overall, is much more acceptable than the protest I won to get us a 5 point victory over Orono A (I'll still avoid disclosing info just in case).

Also, bad choice on mentioning the possible overlap with league play, because, if it did come up at the last meet, the Northern Division is playing those packets on the 10th.
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Post by cdcarter » Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:48 pm

OctagonJoe wrote:Sorry to burst the happiness bubble, but Pilgrim was also captured at the Battle of the Bulge.
Damn. I could have sworn he....wasn't. But I see now that this is true.

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Post by OctagonJoe » Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:57 pm

Classic Lake Conference Tournament is tomorrow, and I am very afraid. Last year, we got into the championship game and played Cooper A, beating them 29-2. I just don't know what to expect this year. To make things more interesting, I've also nearly lost my voice from a cold that's lasted since Monday and most of the team will be at a Science Olympiad meet that is being hosted by our own school (I wouldn't put it past our coach to have made this scheduling faux pas). However, it will be nice to have a tournament without EP tearing it up.
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Post by Auks Ran Ova » Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:31 pm

What kind of questions is that tournament played on, Carsten?
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Post by OctagonJoe » Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:58 pm

Last year's was an NAQT tossups only set of some odd sort. I remember Hentzel being there because of Mitu "Don't Call Me a Maxim Gun" Ramgopal's nice neg in the consolation match that had to be sorted out through 20 minutes of phonecalling, which in the end got Minnetonka 3rd and our B team 4th. My hope is that this year's set, IS#70, will be a normal series with normal tossup to bonus format, but at Minnetonka anything can happen.
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Post by OctagonJoe » Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:32 pm

Nevermind, just remembered having read this post in the Weekend of Quizbowl area.
dyetman wrote:Let's just hope it doesn't turn out to be a gawdawful piece of sh*t, a la IS-70
Not looking like tomorrow will be a great tournament of any sorts. I'll still post whatever important stats I can remember once I get home.
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