Illinois '07-'08

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Trevkeeper » Tue Mar 18, 2008 11:55 pm

Tegan wrote:However, given all of his contributions, I was enormously disappointed that Nick Matchen was not given more serious consideration.
I'm touched! However, I wasn't even sure if I belonged on First Team or not. I guess it goes back to the "contributions to the game" vs. stats as a player argument.
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Tegan » Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:34 am

Trevkeeper wrote:I'm touched! However, I wasn't even sure if I belonged on First Team or not. I guess it goes back to the "contributions to the game" vs. stats as a player argument.
IMO, you look at everything. If we didn't then I would just ask for toss-ups numbers to be handed in, and we would rank people that way.

Its hardly without precedent. I recall a Quincy kid getting (and deserving) a First Team award not just because he was a pretty good player, but because as his team (we're talking Quincy here) was about to get chopped in budget cuts, he went out and gathered support and fund raised, etc to save the team.

I think helping start Illinois' first home grown pyramidal question company that bent over backwards to spread good questions in Illinois, not to mention good stats, was worth more than a cup of coffee and a thank you.

I hope this doesn't come across as me picking on Bonny. He's a great player.

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by harpersferry » Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:23 am

How long has all-state existed?
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Tegan » Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:09 pm

pasedpawn wrote:How long has all-state existed?
2001-02 was the first season. This is year seven.

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by mlaird » Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:46 pm

Just so that all of you know, the All-State Selection Process is now underway. We should have results for you next week.

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by theguy914 » Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:36 pm

can someone please post a link to the all sectional list from this year.

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Deviant Insider » Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:22 pm

Class AA (98)
Bradley-Bourbonnais Sectional (12)
Jacob Blair, Bradley-Bourbonnais; Zachary Ellis, Pontiac; Ajay
Haryani, Bradley-Bourbonnais; Christopher Izzo, Homewood-
Flossmoor; Mike Marszowski, Homewood-Flossmoor; Kat Maunel,
Crete-Monee; Meagan Musselmann, Mahomet-Seymour; Madison
Perington, Mahomet-Seymour; Eric Schultz, Joliet Township; James
Shannon, Homewood-Flossmoor; Kristen Skul, Crete-Monee;
Matthew Wujek, Joliet Catholic Academy.
Chicago Marist Sectional (4)
Jordan Baczynski, Summit Argo; Kevin Barsaloux, Chicago Marist;
Brian Cunningham, Chicago Marist; William Mahoney, Chicago
Marist.
Dunlap Sectional (15)
Miller Austin, Springfield Southeast; Pierce Bertschy, Dunlap; Carl
Butt, Springfield HS; Jenna Casady, Quincy; Megan Clasen,
Metamora; Jerome Dehnel, Rock Island; Hunter Fast, Bloomington
HS; Caitie Flynn, Springfield HS; John Hayashi, Quincy; Mohammad
Hussain, Moline; Tyler Morrell, Dunlap; Ryan Recker, Dunlap;
Benjamin Rogers, Normal Community West; Warren Shull,
Washington; Hemanth Sirandas, Moline.
O’Fallon Sectional (14)
Kevin Banker, O'Fallon; Paul Botros, Carbondale; Tony Cao,
Carbondale; Jerry Chang, Carbondale; Matthew Cook, East Alton-
Wood River; Michael Gagliardi, O'Fallon; Matt Hellman Breese
Mater Dei; Jonathan Jones, Charleston; Gene Marquez, O'Fallon;
Greg Van Asch, Belleville West; Tom Vaughan, Breese Mater Dei;
Alex Weaver, Chatham Glenwood; Peter Weigel, Belleville West;
Zach Worman, Effingham HS.
Park Ridge Maine South Sectional (15)
Joe Ahmad, Wilmette Loyola; Dan Auerbach, Northbrook Glenbrook
North; Charlie Carbery, Oak Park-River Forest; Ben Cohen, Winnetka
New Trier; Marta Escobedo, Bensenville Fenton; Kevin Gatter,
Hoffman Estates Conant; Jack Glerum, Wilmette Loyola; Jonah
Greenthal, Winnetka New Trier; Jimmy Grizzell, Park Ridge Maine
South; Derek Newhouse, Niles Notre Dame; Jay Patel, Park Ridge
Maine East; Chris Reynoldson, Franklin Park-Northlake Leyden;
Ethan Ross, Oak Park Fenwick; Robert Sido, Winnetka New Trier;
Mike Verity, Wilmette Loyola.
Rockford Auburn Sectional (12)
John Brown, Rockford Auburn; Julia Friberg, Rockford Guilford;
Danny Hannan, Rockford Boylan; Michael Jiang, Rockford Auburn;
Robert Kisting, Rockford Guilford; Stephanie Munyon, Maple Park
Kaneland; Breanna Neubauer, Sterling; Hannah Provenza, Rockford
Boylan; Thomas Say, Sterling; Meghan Schilber, Maple Park
Kaneland; Bruce Spencer III, Rockford East; Siva Sundaram,
Rockford Auburn.
Wheaton Warrenville South Sectional (12)
Vamsi Aribindi, Naperville North; Hunter Brown, Glen Ellyn
Glenbard West; Greg Gauthier, Wheaton North; Jonathan Irving,
Wheaton North; Prakriti Joshi, Wheaton Warrenville South; Jason
Kruski, Downers Grove South; Curt Peterson, Wheaton Warrenville
South; Ashok Poozhikunnel, Wheaton Warrenville South; Keshau
Puranmalka, Naperville Central; Jeff Sommars, Wheaton North;
Matthew Straus, Naperville North; Mark Taylor, St. Charles East.
Zion-Benton Sectional (14)
Dan Bradley, Zion-Benton; Daniel Bulmash, Buffalo Grove; Aaron
Chun, Lake Zurich; Tim Ekl, Lake Zurich; Collin Hazlett, Grayslake
Central; Justin Kopinsky, Lincolnshire Stevenson; Susan Liu, Hoffman
Estates; Adam MacTaggart, Libertyville; Craig Messner, Lake Villa
Lakes; Blythe Roberson, Antioch; Michael Scott, Lake Villa Lakes;
Kyle Shymanik, Palatine HS; Sam Stejskal, Palatine Fremd; Kevin
Stone, Mundelein Carmel.
Class A (73)
Carlinville Sectional (10)
Mitch Belusko, Litchfield; Marissa Chapman, Greenfield; Joshua
Chestnut, Bunker Hill; Evan Daigle, Litchfield; Zach Lucker, Piasa
Southwestern; Evan Preston, Jacksonville Routt; Robert Rush,
Carlinville; Christian Vitali, Alton Marquette; Mark Whalen,
Hillsboro; Elizabeth York, Litchfield.
Chicago Latin Sectional (14)
Ryan Buckman, Herscher; Lea Dekker, Herscher; Andrew Friedman,
Chicago Latin; Alex Fugate, Grant Park; Rebecca Gieseker, Seneca;
Rachel Groters, Elmhurst Timothy Christian; Naiomi Gunaratne, Lisle;
Nick Hybel, Chicago Latin; Laurel Kunath, Lisle; Colin Mullikin,
Herscher; Michael Muzyka, Dwight; Kolin O'Brien, Kankakee Bishop
McNamara; William Szumski, Seneca; Mark Zylstra, Elmhurst Timothy
Christian.
Herrin Sectional (Too Late for Publication)
Knoxville Sectional (4)
Alex Decker, Wethersfield; Kyle Dinges, Abingdon; Derek Lessard,
Macomb; Cullen Seaton, Macomb.
Newton Sectional (9)
Adam Evans, Beecher City; Sarah Hoffeditz, Newton; Ethan Ingram,
Toledo Cumberland; William Morris, Farina South Central; Richard
Parker, Cisne; Lincoln Sedlacek, Farina South Central; Matt Shelton,
Brownstown; Lian States, Fairfield; Seth Yates, Paris.
Petersburg PORTA Sectional (13)
Kyle Brackett, Farmington; Simon Brauer, Petersburg PORTA; Adam
Coers, Mason City Illini Central; Ryan Davis, Farmington;Cody Dirks,
Petersburg PORTA; Greg Gauf, Peoria Heights; Mark Kline, Lewistown;
Kirk Knapp, Roanoke-Benson; Burl Rolett, Peoria Heights; Issac
Shelton, Petersburg PORTA; Zack Troxel, Peoria Heights; Zachary
Watkins, Chillicothe IVC; John Wiemer, Mason City Illini Central.
Warrensburg-Latham Sectional (10)
Eric Ahasic, Champaign St. Thomas More; Katie Bock, Macon
Meridian; Anna Czapar, Rochester; Kurt Fowlar, Williamsville; Kevin
Grady, Champaign St. Thomas More; Drew Hatcher, Warrensburg-
Latham; Aaron Letterly, Warrensburg-Latham; Derek Lewis, Rochester;
Jonathan Tish, Williamsville; Jennifer Wyatt, Rochester.
Winnebago Sectional (13)
Michael Benson, Morrison; John Clark, Sterling Newman Central
Catholic; Aaron Deets, Byron; Madeline Dillner, Winnebago; Graham
Johnson, Winnebago; Sean Kilker, Forreston; Arthur Le Doux, Stillman
Valley; Zachary Ramussen, Byron; Adam Sirgany, Stockton; Phillip
Sitter, Sterling Newman Central Catholic; Marcus Smith, Byron;
Hannah Smith, Stillman Valley; Christina Winter, Stillman Valley.
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by theguy914 » Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:30 am

thank you so much... the carlinville all sectional is wack. There were about 6 kids from the carlinville sectional that were so much better than every other kid. elizabeth, mitch,and evan from litchfield. christian and drew from marquette and christopher from roxana.(in actuality marquette and litchfield both had another kid worthy too, who ddint score as much for their teams, but on nearly every other team in the sectonal they would have been the leading scorer.) somehow christopher and drew didnt make it. for example drew, by himself, had twice as many tossups in match as the whole carlinvillle team and another time twice as many as the whole hillsboro team. both of these teams have a player on all sectional and I couldnt even tell you who the kid is b/c everytime I saw them play noone stood out. the same holds true for bunker hill. I can understand the southwestern and routt kid getting it. the greenfield girl is the only I never saw play, but her team score about 100 points in their regional match against one of the worst teams from the marquette and litchfield conference. the other, christopher, definately had the highest tossup average in the sectioanl. he had something like 10 tossups against litchfield and he also had about 8 tossups against marquette. in both of these matches he nearly matched the amount of tossups the whole other team had and they were the top two teams in the sectional. I've heard he did this basically every game.

this is totally random, but I'd just like to say that the girl from litchfield is the best british literature player I've ever seen. I haven't been around all that long, but in all three matches we played her this year she answered every brit lit question within the first sentence. once after one word and another time after 3 words.
Last edited by theguy914 on Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Tegan » Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:36 am

theguy914 wrote:The Carlinville all sectional team is so messed up
Not knowing exactly what you mean, could you expand on that?

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by theguy914 » Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:42 am

edited the post above as an explanation.

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by cornfused » Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:33 pm

If you don't mind, could you edit in some player and team names, so that's a bit more specific?
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by mlaird » Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:38 pm

Well, my very upset friend, if you take note, there are only 10 all-sectional players from your sectional. That means that EVERY player who was put up for contention got honors. If their coaches had in fact nominated them, then all of those players that you mentioned would be listed up there as well.

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by theguy914 » Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:46 pm

I was almost positive that both of those kids were nominated by their coaches but I guess I was wrong..

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Tegan » Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:03 pm

Thanks for the explanation on your comment, "Guy914"

The system is inherently imperfect. Sure, I have seen teams where 4-5 players are better than the #1 player from another team. But that one team's coach happens to nominate that one player, and if no one else makes a nomination, that player gets an award.

Further, and this really upsets me, there are coaches who will vote for one player from a team, and no matter how good tha second player is, that second player is getting a low vote so that "other teams have a chance". This happened a few years ago up in Fremd's sectional ..... one of the Alex brothers wasn't even voted All-Sectional (top ten in the sectional) when anyone could tell you he was easily top 15 in the state, and likely top 10. Fortunately, we had a mechanism in place to repair that, so he was reconsidered, given his All-Sectional honor, and then had the state coaches vote him First Team All-State.

Some coaches simply never nominate players. They either don't want to get involved, or don't think their player is worthy. Take Bonny Jain. My feeling is that Bonny, at the very least, was nominatable. However, his coach just either didn't want to get involved, or didn't look into possible options to get him nominated. I really have no idea. This is the biggest shame!


The lesser problem is coaches who really have no idea what is going on in the wider world out there. Some team comes along that has never been good, they win a few matches, and all of a sudden, their leading scorer is "the greatest player I have ever seen" (which may in fact be true). However, their player may be nowhere near an "All-State" caliber player. So, they get miffed when their "greatest player ever" gets looked over by people with far more experience and a far greater knowledge of the players out there.

The last thing: voters getting confused between "team" and "player". Some coaches think that just because a team does well, the best player by default must be great. Likewise, if the team doesn't make it out of regionals, how good could hte player have been? Both fallacies. A good player with no support may have a bad day, any day, and in regionals where you are one and out, the team performed poorly, but that does not take away from the individual accomplishments. Further, the third player on a state title team isn't necessarily an awesome player just because the team won.

I am very concerned that the All-State balloting is not wrapping up until after state this year, as it could very heavily influence voters to selecting less deserving players whose teams did well over more deserving players whose teams may not have advanced. Unfortunately, having supervised this for many years, I know exactly how some coaches vote, and it is not necessarily for the better players.

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by JackGlerum » Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:37 pm

Mr. Laird, I have my popcorn ready for the "scholastic bowl is inherently elitist" rant.

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by mlaird » Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:02 pm

JohnGlerum wrote:Mr. Laird, I have my popcorn ready for the "scholastic bowl is inherently elitist" rant.
Nah, that doesn't apply to this situation.

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by JackGlerum » Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:43 pm

True, but the anticipation is still brewing.

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Ford08 » Sat Mar 22, 2008 10:55 pm

I have family in Paxton, do they have a qb team?
Calc is for wusseys

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Tegan » Sun Mar 23, 2008 1:48 pm

Ford08 wrote:I have family in Paxton, do they have a qb team?
Paxton-Buckley-Loda used to have a team, but they did not enter the IHSA State Series this year.

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by AlphaQuizBowler » Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:07 pm

theguy914 wrote:she answered every brit lit question within the first sentence. once after one word...
Is this really possible? If this did really occur in a match, could you tell me the word it was? Also, does Illinois announce category before reading the tossup? If so, maybe the answer space was sufficiently limited to allow for such a quick buzz. Maybe if it was a famous work or something, she could get it.
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by dtaylor4 » Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:19 pm

In Illinois format, the subcategory is read before the question (Lit - Brit Lit, Science-Bio/Physio/Anatomy, etc.), and some of the lit questions I heard in high school led off with a character, so that may explain it.

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Kanga-Rat Murder Society » Sun Mar 23, 2008 8:16 pm

AlphaQuizBowler wrote:
theguy914 wrote:she answered every brit lit question within the first sentence. once after one word...
Is this really possible? If this did really occur in a match, could you tell me the word it was? Also, does Illinois announce category before reading the tossup? If so, maybe the answer space was sufficiently limited to allow for such a quick buzz. Maybe if it was a famous work or something, she could get it.
I do not believe this is really possible. While one can answer a question in one word, the first sentence often will not narrow it down enough (She studied literature at Cambridge in the 1800's, etc.)

On a seperate note, I think the All-Sectional Teams have gotten too large. In several sectionals, anybody who was nominated was given a spot. Where is the honor in that? When you have two kids from a school that did get out of Regionals, you know that too many kids are getting spots on the team.

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by dtaylor4 » Sun Mar 23, 2008 10:00 pm

BG MSL Champs wrote:I do not believe this is really possible. While one can answer a question in one word, the first sentence often will not narrow it down enough (She studied literature at Cambridge in the 1800's, etc.)
It can happen, depending on the quality of questions. I distinctly remember playing on a set of Bryce Avery questions at a conference tournament my junior year, and the first two words were "Lennie Small," after which I blitzed with Of Mice and Men/Steinbeck.

To reiterate, it can be done on crap questions.

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Tegan » Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:16 pm

BG MSL Champs wrote:On a seperate note, I think the All-Sectional Teams have gotten too large.
Stands and applauds. I'll go a step further. The whole process needs to be revisited. You have people barely getting 15 tossups in a handful of matches getting an All-Sectional award, while player with over 150 topssups in about 25 matches are getting denied the same award. I have long resisted taking the vote away from coaches, but I am more and more thinking that this time is approaching

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Tegan » Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:25 pm

BG MSL Champs wrote: Is this really possible? If this did really occur in a match, could you tell me the word it was?
The one time I actually saw it happen was in a regional semifinal about five years ago (Maine South vs. Fenton). We had a great geography guy (Tom "The Map" Bellino, for those with a memory). We were barely leading with one question to go. The other coach called a timeout. I went right up to Tom, and told him "There's one question left, and it will be social studies, AND we have not had a single geography question all match. Be ready."

Sine there had to be six social studies questions, and there had been only five, it was indeed social studies, and in fact, it was geography.

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Sealed the match. Certainly not the "oh my goodness, how did he pull that one out of the aether moments", but in a tight match, it was impressive enough to get the job done.

We were promptly accused of cheating when the Fenton coach accused me of having previewed the questions. I told him that I had counted the questions in each category, and made a logical leap that one of the six social studies would be geography.

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by theguy914 » Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:27 pm

first off I've only played against her 3 times. that makes the fact that she always got it right in the first sentence much more feasable, but I get the impression that she was always pretty quick with brit lit b/c in the sectional final it was something like a 20 point match and they said the sub cat of brit lit and the entire team breathed a sigh of relief.

here's two examples. the question she answered in one word was from our conference set which were horribly written questions. I know nearly nothing about literature, but I believe the first word was the name of a character from the comedy of errors. in the sectional final the moderator said there were two christenings at and she buzzed in and said the importance of being earnest.

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by harpersferry » Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:27 am

I seem to remember a question in IHSA starting out "Fitzwilliam..." a few years back.
So bad. So so bad.
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:34 am

Tegan wrote:
BG MSL Champs wrote:On a seperate note, I think the All-Sectional Teams have gotten too large.
Stands and applauds. I'll go a step further. The whole process needs to be revisited. You have people barely getting 15 tossups in a handful of matches getting an All-Sectional award, while player with over 150 topssups in about 25 matches are getting denied the same award. I have long resisted taking the vote away from coaches, but I am more and more thinking that this time is approaching
Here's another example.

Byron had an excellent year this year, with three strong players sharing the tossups pretty equally. Among other accolades, they swept the Big Northern Conference, taking 11 wins and putting their top 3 players in 1st, 4th, and 5th places overall in tossup totals. I don't have the numbers on me, but I want to say their captain put up ~8 TU/game and the other two ~6 per game each in 24 question matches. The drop off from 5th to 6th place was at least 1 TU/game. The top 5 were really good players - after that, there was no differentiation.

But the coaches didn't vote the third player onto the All-Conference team, because apparently they decided not to do 3 players from the same team...even though any one of those three players solo could beat any of the other 11 teams in the conference. I hope all three of them make All-State - they all deserve it, and maybe it'll wake some people up.
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by harpersferry » Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:28 am

I think all this about All-Sectional and All-State and "what about these players", and "this guy doesn't deserve it" shows that you will always run into trouble when you attempt to rank or compare individuals in a team event. The best are obvious, sure. But the vast ocean of decent players is always going to be hard to sort out because the indicators won't all point in the same direction. Yes, there are statistics. Yes, there are individual tournaments. These things can help in determining individual comparisons, but when it comes down to it, the team is what matters.
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by AKKOLADE » Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:30 am

So you guys have 114 All-Stars? Seriously?
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by First Chairman » Mon Mar 24, 2008 9:33 am

It's like football where you have tons of all-stars at the high school level for different classes and regions and so forth.
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Tegan » Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:25 am

leftsaidfred wrote:So you guys have 114 All-Stars? Seriously?
Not quite.

The IHSA runs Scholastic Bowl in two classes: small schools (A) and big schools (AA). The schools are geographically assigned to one of 8 sectionals in each class (total of 16 sectionals).

Each sectional has a seeding meeting to seed the teams, and then picks an All-Sectional team. Figure that each sectional has between 22 (class AA) and 40 (class A) teams, so somewhere between 110-200 starting players (Illinois plays 5-on-5, not 4-on-4).

We also had a rule that if any legitimate player did not get voted All-Sectional, or a legit All-State player didn't make the cut in the sectional, the coach could send the application to me, I would assess if there really was a sleight, and take the appropriate action. This has happened three times, though only once did it result in the player getting voted All-State.

When I started All-Sectional/All-State, we permitted each sectional to name 10 players as "All-Sectional" based on a coaches vote. The top 4-5 players would then be considered for "All-State" honors. Each sectional also named a coach to be a selector for All-State. It was tweaked here and there over the past few years. Most notably, we stripped the vote from coaches who did not coach in at least "X" number of matches, and also required players to play in "X" number of matches (we once had a kid get voted All-Sectional without having played a single match .... ludicrous!)

Last year I gave up the job, and all of a sudden, some new rules got put in. One of those rules was increasing the number of All-Sectional players in each sectional to 15. I was strongly against this. The "on paper" reason was that there were some sectionals where you would get a lot of applications for 10 slots, while some sectionals would get as few as 1 nominee. I suspected there was a different motivation.

Throughout the process, there has been the usual problems, some of which have been noted. Some selectors would see teams with two great players as All-State finalists. They would rank one very high (where they should be), and then refuse to rank the other, citing an attempt to "spread the wealth". This is not what we wanted.

Another issue is that a coach could have the best player they have ever had on their team, even though that player is not really All-State caliber. Then the coach is angry and incredulous when their player is not given more serious consideration.

When looking at two players from two different teams, you can have a player with 200 tossups, but played nobody, and they aren't necessarily better than the player with 140 who played a strong schedule. Further, a player can get 300 tossups, but have no one on their teams scoring. A player with 140 may not look as impressive, but if you have two other players with 120 and 110, then the player with 140 isn't necessarily a worse player. This is why the application lists how many tossups the other players on the team get, and a sampling of "best games" to get a flavor for how tough the other teams are.

It is a flawed system. I never claimed to have all the answers on how this works, or should work. I looked at how other competitions did this, and picked and chose different methodologies that I thought worked best within the constraints that we had to work with. I am starting to wonder if we have reached the point where this is beyond being fixed, or if it has run its course and should simply end, or if it needs serious retooling.

I fully agree: 15 All-Sectional players in a sectional is too many. Ironically, 15 might be more appropriate in some of the larger Class A sectionals, (with 200 some odd players to choose from) but historically they nominate the fewest players.

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Matt Weiner » Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:39 pm

The more I hear about the IHSA, the less redeemable it seems. Seriously, there are not 114 players in the whole country good enough to get named officially outstanding players. Thus, the idea that there are that many just in Illinois is absurd.

It seems kind of crazy that the few things a football-coach association might actually be able to help with (like, a public school in Illinois being specifically disinvited from a quizbowl tournament on the basis of "we think they were good eight years ago, and if we allow a school we think is good to show up, they might win, and that might damage the self-esteem of people who lose") are left by the wayside, while they obsess over things like uniform requirements and restricting teams from playing tournaments at certain places and times. Also, I've been "privileged" to see many questions from Illinois lately, and I'm sorry to say that not a single tournament produced for the Illinois distribution has been better than "marginally acceptable" in quality, with most of them being more like "awful."

When everyone is a winner, no one is a winner. All of these enrollment classes and five thousand regional tournaments and giant rain barrels full of "all-sectional" ribbons smack of Harrison Bergeron-ism and severely cheapen the accomplishments of the teams and players who really do put in the work to be good. I think Illinois has to deal with this philosophical problem, as well as with the knowledge that the IHSA new-writers project has thusfar failed, if they ever want to have "good quizbowl" in their state.
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by mlaird » Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:01 pm

Matt, note that the IHSSBCA runs All-State, not the IHSA. They absolutely hate doing things that they don't have to.

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by theguy914 » Mon Mar 24, 2008 6:53 pm

I wouldn't say that everyone wins. there are 320 teams in class A scholarbowl and only 8 go to state. this a similar story for class AA.

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Tegan » Mon Mar 24, 2008 7:09 pm

Matt Weiner wrote:The more I hear about the IHSA, the less redeemable it seems. Seriously, there are not 114 players in the whole country good enough to get named officially outstanding players. Thus, the idea that there are that many just in Illinois is absurd.
As Dr. Laird suggested, the IHSA is in charge of silly rules. The coaches association (IHSSBCA) is the group responsible for trying to get recognition and actually recognizing achievement and effort.
Matt Weiner wrote:It seems kind of crazy that the few things a football-coach association might actually be able to help with (like, a public school in Illinois being specifically disinvited from a quizbowl tournament on the basis of "we think they were good eight years ago, and if we allow a school we think is good to show up, they might win, and that might damage the self-esteem of people who lose") are left by the wayside, while they obsess over things like uniform requirements and restricting teams from playing tournaments at certain places and times.
The good thing is that the IHSA let individual tournments do what they want. The bad thing is that they let individual tournaments do what they want. Yes, IMSA et. al. aren't given as many invitations as others. Given the fact that they were over an hour late to their own Regional, I think it has less and less to do these days with "they were awesome eight years ago" and more and more to do with "they really aren't reliable" ... that includes pulling out of a couple of tournaments at the last minute. I've invited them to my tournaments, and they don't come. They are more of a fringe team these days with a lot of underdeveloped base talent. With development, they could be very good, but while I won't excuse uninvites years ago, uninvites today are for more legitimate reasons.

As for the IHSA obsessing over minutiae rules (mostly due to a large contingent of coaches from >>>insert geographical reference here<<<), its true, but most of that is ignorable throughout the year until the State Series. And as for restrictions, I would think you msut agree that this is not so big a deal, so long as it doesn't get mentioned too many times. Its not a productive use of their time, but it affects a grand total of three days of the year.

Matt Weiner wrote:Also, I've been "privileged" to see many questions from Illinois lately, and I'm sorry to say that not a single tournament produced for the Illinois distribution has been better than "marginally acceptable" in quality, with most of them being more like "awful."
I don't know which questions you've been looking at. The state this year was rough as we brought in a few new writers .... even rougher given some last minute pullouts (and I'm not calling out anyone on that, though some of them are reading this). Are there still tournaments that use some bad writers that we have all battered around? Sure. Would I hope things would get better? Yes. Has it been something that I and others have been working on? Absolutely. Are we moving in a good direction? Yes. Is you unflattering opinion toward what is going on here in any way going to make things get better?
Matt Weiner wrote:When everyone is a winner, no one is a winner.
QFT!
Matt Weiner wrote:All of these enrollment classes and five thousand regional tournaments and giant rain barrels full of "all-sectional" ribbons smack of Harrison Bergeron-ism and severely cheapen the accomplishments of the teams and players who really do put in the work to be good. I think Illinois has to deal with this philosophical problem, as well as with the knowledge that the IHSA new-writers project has thusfar failed, if they ever want to have "good quizbowl" in their state.
I agree that the enrollment class expanion is not the best .....We have 8 in football, and just went to 4 in basketball. It makes three of the four state champs in name only as far as I am concerned (unless you get that occasional great lower class team that is stuck down there). On the other hand, that is the way it is in most states. Its a reality. In our state, we have two classes. That's less than some other states.

You mention that this reaks of cheapening the accomplishments of the teams that do work hard. Actually, I cannot disagree because of what we (and other states) have to live with. Because the IHSA insists on regional representation, evey year there are many hard working, accomplished teams that accomplish little. Why? Because one of the only teams that accomlpishes more is sitting right next door, and blocks you from advancing, while 12-13 other far less deserving teams advance simply because they were built far enough away. Is it right? Hell no! Is it reality? Yes. Some of these awards we give out are rewards to individuals who do work their butts off, and often times get nothing .... sometimes their coach won' take them to too many places. Sometimes it is their team who lets them down. In any event, I want to take a kid aside and say "HEY! I saw the effort, I saw you work hard sucks you had to play next to the eventual state champ, you would have played well at state" ... or "sucks your coach didn't work more with you", or "sucks your team didn't work as hard as you did" ... and "even "WOW, wish I could be you ... great player for a great team, you've won all there is to win." In any event, because our state is set up to not recognize greatness, I and others have made it a point to do so. We aren't handing out "best in the nation" medals. We are saying "congrats, best in your area" or "congrats, best in this state". I have advocated keeping the number small, but nonzero.

The whole point of having an expanded awards program was to act as a carrot (that's when you try and entice someone to do better by being nice instead of just saying "work harder or we'll beat you by even more points". Both can be ways to entice improvement. But until this program started, there was no such carrot .... just the stick. Maybe for people like you and me ... we are people who work a little harder when we don't accomplish something, and we do look at forced civility and this "everyone can be above average" attitude with contempt, BUT, what works for you and me dones not work for everyone. If the goal here is to get more people involved, and get more teams to get better, and more teams to see good quizbowl, and want more good quizbowl, you need to make an approach that works for them.

The intent was: if a coach or team or school or community could be shown that they could win something, maybe that would entice them to work harder, go to more tournaments, become more involved. As they got better, not only would they simply be better, but they might start to see the benefits of "god quiz bowl" over "bad quizbowl". Even in the impossibly difficult job of getting coverage ... perhaps even to use is as leverage to make schools and districts better support their programs, using terms like "all-Sectional" and "All-State" are terms that journailsts and community members understand. Ya' see, Matt, when someone comes up to me and says "what you are doing is bad, basically because in my opinion, this is the way it should be", you'd be surprised how many people walk away. You might say "good riddance", but if you are trying to change things, you've lost a chance to change a coach, a team, etc. Even if you're opinion is true, and correct, and supported by many, you won't sell people on it.

Has this program worked? There's no way to be sure. I would like to think that at least in a few programs, it has worked this way. Maybe that's cheery and optimisitc old me (Peterson, stop laughing) trying to convince myself that I've done something good. Of course, I'm not an optimist, and I generally tend to be very critical of anything I do. Maybe this has been a collossal waste of time and effort. Maybe it should go. The fact of the matter is, I cannot think of one good reason why it should go. It needs to be fixed. I've been clear on that. My idea had always been recognizing 10 players out of somewhere between 120 and 200 as being the best in their area (note: never does it say "awesome" or "you're the best in the state", etc. It is a recognition, nothing more. The All-State awards: 20 per-class (40 total) recognizing the best of roughly 5,000 to 8,000 players in the state. That's less than 1% on the most conservative count. It might be closer to 0.5%. That's a far smaller percentage than most sports. I imagine that's even narrower than "magna cum laude" in the case of most schools of higher learning.

As I stated, expanding the program is not something I was in favor of. I never was. I hope the IHSSBCA will revisit that and strongly consider realin gthing sin a bit.


Matt, honestly, I truly love and respect you for what you do to help this competition on a national level, but sometimes you are an honest to goodness whining-moaning pill!



Though, a world without pills would be a world full of sickness.

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by the return of AHAN » Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:21 pm

Tegan wrote:.....As they got better, not only would they simply be better, but they might start to see the benefits of "god quiz bowl" over "bad quizbowl".
Sorry, couldn't resist inserting the links!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by cornfused » Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:31 pm

Tegan wrote:"god quiz bowl"
Tegan wrote:(Peterson, stop laughing)
Would this be 20/20 Religion/Mythology?

Or would it be easy one-liners read in a doorless room, with players starting the game outside the room?

Or would this simply be beyond the masters level, requiring players to state their answers in spontaneous 15-minute lectures?
(FTP, explain the manner in which Athol Fugard incorporates elements of absurdism into his Sizwe Banzi is Dead.)

*

Honestly, though, I think my views are somewhere between Matt's and Coach Egan's. I think All-State/All-Sectional awards, especially when given to underclassmen, just help programs get out more. Is it really that odd to think that a coach of some tiny school with a barely-active program might think, "Wow, two of my guys got named All-Sectional last year as juniors? We should go to more tournaments this year - if we've got the talent..."

I support the elimination of the exactly-10-players-per-sectional, though. If a sectional has 12 players that have proved themselves, give 'em all the certificate. But if a sectional has three players that absolutely dominate and 200 players that put in no effort, why are we wasting certificates on the best 7 of those 200, well, fish? (With all due respect to Mr. Blessman's goldfish over at Culver.)

Smaller numbers of awards would be great, yes. But for All-Sectional, if not-so-dominant players get a certificate saying "keep it up," that's OK. All-State will say, THESE are the All-Stars this year.

Also - is there a reason All-State splits for the different classes? It seems to me that the I-am-a-small-school handicap for teams is a lot larger than the I-go-to-a-small-school handicap for players. Just hypothetically - why not a ten-player 1st team, 2nd team, 3rd team for the entire state?

*EDIT: I see that Mr. Price has come up with a fourth (and notably simpler) option.
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Matt Weiner » Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:44 pm

cornfused wrote:Or would this simply be beyond the masters level, requiring players to state their answers in spontaneous 15-minute lectures?
(FTP, explain the manner in which Athol Fugard incorporates elements of absurdism into his Sizwe Banzi is Dead.)
Hey, it's the lit equivalent of math calculation questions!
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by harpersferry » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:19 am

And heck, you learn it at school, so it clearly should be one-fourth of the questions asked. After all, quizbowl is a perfect mirror reflecting what you learn in the curriculum. </sarcasm>
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by AKKOLADE » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:28 am

Let's please keep the math questions-specific discussion in the math questions-specific discussion thread.
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Tegan » Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:03 pm

cornfused wrote:
I support the elimination of the exactly-10-players-per-sectional, though. <sic>

Also - is there a reason All-State splits for the different classes? It seems to me that the I-am-a-small-school handicap for teams is a lot larger than the I-go-to-a-small-school handicap for players. Just hypothetically - why not a ten-player 1st team, 2nd team, 3rd team for the entire state?

This was one of the original options discussed years ago .... (actually just a first and second team of 15 each, vs. 3 teams of ten, not that one was absolutely worse than the other). The reason: no one wanted to be the one to sit down and explain why, on an annual basis, 15 of the All-State players were from Class AA schools, and why only 5 were from Class A (an exaggeration, I think I originally said something like 17 and 3). There have been plenty of great, 150% deserving players from Class A teams .... Brad Fishcer, Kelly Tourdot, >>insert annual selection from Latin<<, Eric Grebing, etc. However, despite Class A schools outnumbering Class AA schools by a huge amount, the fact is, in terms of numbers, most of the better players were from Class AA schools. With due respect, I think someone up the thread was calling for three All-State picks from PORTA .... a team that went 1-7(?) at the NAQT State Tournament? Yes, they won their pool at state. Yes, they beat Byron once on some very tough questions to win the tournament.

Long and short of it: If we did it as a single unified program, the mob would have raised their pitchforks (literally in some cases). We felt that in terms of trying to "encourage", this was not fulfilling that mandate.

On the flip side, while >>most<< of the better players are in Class AA, that is not to say that there are 75 totally unbelievable players in Class AA that are deserving of getting something. To be honest, the 20 number we came up with seems to be a pretty good one. There are some years I have sat there looking at the ballot, and said that there are maybe 17-18 great Class AA players who have accomplished something worthy of being "All-State". Sometimes I look and I see something like 22 players that you could make a case for. Are there some undeserving players who get these awards? Sometimes, in my personal opinion, yes.

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by First Chairman » Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:36 pm

So I'm going to ask a simple question: among the all-state students, can you give me a demographic breakdown? Girls/Boys? Racial breakdown? I'm interested... with 75 potential students...

How does the racial breakdown compare to other sports sponsored by IHSA? Just wondering if that's an issue.
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Tegan » Tue Mar 25, 2008 9:37 pm

To be honest, I've never met them all ..... until the IHSSBCA started hosting a banquet, I didn't meet most of the Class A players.

They are mostly male ..... in any given year, I doubt that of the (total) 40 honorees, there are more than 5. As far as a racial breakdown .... I dunno. I would say that a vast majority are caucasian or Asian.

I'm not sure if that is what you were looking for ..... When I ran things, I never really tracked that too much.

BTW Doc, did you ever send me an e-mail? You asked if I had gotten one, but I never did:
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Epic Fail Guy » Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:03 pm

So when is the all state team list released? Did i already miss it?

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by First Chairman » Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:55 pm

I don't think I've sent you an email if you're referring to me...

I'm curious simply because with that many possible spots, one would hope that there would be some girls represented, as we have seen a bit more equity in the circuit in general. I'd also be interested in the racial demographic, given that for whatever reason those from disadvantaged backgrounds may be implicitly discouraged from taking part in quiz bowl at the state level... possibly...
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by cornfused » Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:20 am

A scan of Team Illinois over the last 11 years shows four women and (since I don't want to identify someone as Indian when they are in fact Thai, etc.) 6.5 players that probably wouldn't identify themselves as "white." Um, I say 6.5 because there's six different players plus a repeat of Yogesh.

Counting Yogesh twice and subtracting the overlap from Jaya Kalra, that's 17 players over 11 years - 18 over 12 if you count this year (Siva, in particular.)

So on average, Team Illinois has had 1.5 players/year that are female, nonwhite, or both. Everybody else is one of them white males.


All-State is trickier, as I don't have pictures and don't know more than a small fraction of the players involved. But I hope that helps.
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by cornfused » Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:23 am

ILoveReeses wrote:I'm curious simply because with that many possible spots, one would hope that there would be some girls represented, as we have seen a bit more equity in the circuit in general.
Also, I'm not entirely sure that this should carry over. I mean, we're not looking at a sampling of the demographic, we're looking at the top players. Taking basketball for an example: I'd guess that the percentage of NBA players who are white is smaller then the percentage of the NBA's top 20 players who are white.
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by mlaird » Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:43 pm

All right, here you go. Here it is. All-State teams.

Class A First Team

Evan Daigle So. Litchfield
Aaron Deets Sr. Byron
Madeline Dillner Sr. Winnebago
Cody Dirks Sr. PORTA
Andrew Friedman Sr. Latin
Ethan Ingram Sr. Cumberland
Richard Parker Sr. Cisne
Issac Shelton Sr. PORTA
Lian States Sr. Fairfield
William Szumski Sr. Seneca Township

Class A Second Team

Anna Czapar Sr. Rochester
Elias Mileur Sr. Murphysboro
Kolin O'Brien Sr. Bishop McNamara
Zachary Ramussen Sr. Byron
Cullen Seaton Jr. Macomb
Matt Shelton Sr. Brownstown
Catherine Siefert Sr. Herrin
Phillip Sitter Sr. Newman Cental Catholic
Zachary Watkins Sr. Chillicothe (IVC)
Elizabeth York Sr. Litchfield

Class AA First Team

John Brown Sr. Rockford Auburn
Carl Butt Jr. Springfield
Ben Cohen Jr. New Trier
Jerome Dehnel Sr. Rock Island
Hunter Fast Sr. Bloomington
Caitie Flynn Sr. Springfield
Greg Gauthier Sr. Wheaton North
Justin Kopinsky Sr. Stevenson
Curt Peterson Sr. Wheaton Warrenville South
Siva Sundaram Jr. Rockford Auburn

Class AA Second Team

Joe Ahmad Jr. Loyola Academy
Vamsi Aribindi Sr. Naperville North
Jacob Blair Sr. Bradley-Bourbonnais
Paul Botros Jr. Carbondale
Jimmy Grizzell Sr. Maine South
Jonathan Irving Sr. Wheaton North
Michael Jiang Jr. Rockford Auburn
Tyler Morrell Sr. Dunlap
Thomas Say Sr. Sterling
Robert Sido Sr. New Trier

Complain away.

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Epic Fail Guy » Wed Mar 26, 2008 5:09 pm

I'm suprised Gene Marquez nor Kevin Banker of O'fallon got even second team all state.

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