Illinois '07-'08

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by BGSO » Mon May 26, 2008 6:08 pm

So NT varsity and Kickoff will be run on the same format. Though the non use of 4 part bonuses means that IHSA doesn't agknowledge those as scholastic bowl. Do you think that will effect the attendance at those events?

In regards to the unfamiliarity, maybe make the first two matches of kickoff 10 seconds and the rest 5, or make it like 7-8 seconds.

Another question, will kickoff be pool play? or what I call (consolation bracket play(4-0 teams play 4-0 teams))?
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by dtaylor4 » Mon May 26, 2008 7:00 pm

BGSO wrote:So NT varsity and Kickoff will be run on the same format. Though the non use of 4 part bonuses means that IHSA doesn't agknowledge those as scholastic bowl. Do you think that will effect the attendance at those events?

In regards to the unfamiliarity, maybe make the first two matches of kickoff 10 seconds and the rest 5, or make it like 7-8 seconds.

Another question, will kickoff be pool play? or what I call (consolation bracket play(4-0 teams play 4-0 teams))?
For the most part, Kickoffs in the past have been pool play, followed by single elim.

As for the unfamiliarity, as long as teams know ahead of time what they're getting into, I suggest going all the way (5 seconds after tossups, 5 after each bonus part, 1 second rebound.)

If you want to get familiar with the structure, and play on good questions, you could make the drive down to Champaign-Urbana in October for Earlybird :).

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Mon May 26, 2008 7:10 pm

If you want to get familiar with the structure, and play on good questions, you could make the drive down to Champaign-Urbana in October for Earlybird :).
Do that, Earlybird was a great tournament that was a lot of fun playing, and I hear next year it's going to be a wide-range collaboration with other good writers so it should be as good or better.
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Deviant Insider » Mon May 26, 2008 7:14 pm

First of all, Donald and Charlie are correct--I highly recommend Earlybird.

BGSO is, with all respect, not correct--changing one or two rules does not mean that IHSA does not recognize it as Scholastic Bowl. There is a specific IHSA policy that makes something not officially Scholastic Bowl if it is not five-on-five, but you can change all sorts of other rules and still have it considered to be Scholastic Bowl. Last year's New Trier Varsity should have been considered regulation matches and listed on teams' Seeding Forms, though Earlybird and Northwestern NAQT should not have been due to the number of students per team.

There probably will be pool play at the Kickoffs, but that decision is made by the host schools. Personally, I would like to see more card tournaments and would be willing to help any tournament that wanted to try it out.
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by BGSO » Mon May 26, 2008 7:39 pm

Meeting with my coach on tuesday to discuss the tournaments we want to do. The list I will be asking for is...

UIUC earlybird
Northwester NAqT
NT solo
Wn kickoff
Carmel
New Trier Varsity
Fremd
Masonic
NAQT state
IHSA tournament
HSNCT (crosses fingers)

Throw that in with MSL league play which consists of a quad, preseason tourney, regular season, regular season, and the confrence championship.

this should give us at least 70 matches which I am very excited about, though it all still needs to be talked about with my coach.
David Garb-
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Tegan » Mon May 26, 2008 8:04 pm

JohnGlerum wrote:Thus, Illinois went "0-fer" against other states today...
... which means another win for the pessimistic "unders".

First, congrats to New Trier ..... they did better than some thought, all things given. Double congrats to Ben, a spirited performance!

My two bits: Illinois, as a whole, was down this year. There were fewer "good teams". After seeing NAQT, I will say that there were fewer good teams across the country as well. That isn't to take away from what the top teams accomplished, but this will not go down as a "great" year in national quizbowl, or even Illinois quizbowl. Such is the case.

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Tegan » Mon May 26, 2008 8:13 pm

BGSO wrote:Though the non use of 4 part bonuses means that IHSA doesn't agknowledge those as scholastic bowl.
Small correction: the lack of 4-part bonuses does not disqualify this as being considered scholastic bowl in Illinois. 3 part bonuses are already well established in Illinois.
BGSO wrote:Do you think that will effect the attendance at those events?
It might. There are a great many coaches who are simply against this change for many reasons:
1. I've already learned this system, and I don't want to learn another
2. I set up my team to succeed in this system, and don't want to compete in a tournament where my team is not set up to have a chance at succeeding.
3. This system goes too fast .... my kids need a lot of time to think about things in order to have a chance to succeed.
4. They think that this system reduces teamwork.
5. They think this system takes away from the individual aspect of the game.

In short, the changes will not be made until:
1. They are accepted by a majority of the representatives on the IHSA Board. This will be next to impossible.
2. They are forced on the state when the only writers of short answer horrible questions go out of business, and there is no choice but to change. This will be harder for more people to swallow, but I suspect is the way it is more likely to happen, unless there are people more willing to crawl out of their shells.

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Auks Ran Ova » Mon May 26, 2008 8:18 pm

Tegan wrote:My two bits: Illinois, as a whole, was down this year. There were fewer "good teams". After seeing NAQT, I will say that there were fewer good teams across the country as well. That isn't to take away from what the top teams accomplished, but this will not go down as a "great" year in national quizbowl, or even Illinois quizbowl. Such is the case.
...what in the world are you talking about? This year featured an extremely closely-matched final four, as well as all kinds of other great teams.
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Tegan » Mon May 26, 2008 8:21 pm

BGSO wrote:Meeting with my coach on tuesday to discuss the tournaments we want to do. The list I will be asking for is...
UIUC earlybird
Northwester NAqT
NT solo
Wn kickoff
Carmel
New Trier Varsity
Fremd
Masonic
NAQT state
IHSA tournament
HSNCT (crosses fingers)
I wish you the best of luck, as this is a good list to work from.

Though, I will point out one suggestion.

I have really no problem with doing NAQT tournaments, but the Northwestern Tournament would not be on my personal list. We have gone twice, and the tournament is dying (seven years ago, over 50 teams, last year there were like 8). The officiating has been highly dubious, and the organization has been less than acceptable, especially given the unbelievably low turnout (I can imagine there being snafus with 40-50 teams in attendance, but it can't be too tough to run an 8 team field, when the questions are provided). Further, while there are a couple of really good teams, there are also some teams that are not really going to be worth your time, if you are looking to improve.

My two bits.

I hope it gets better but the history has not borne this out.

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Tegan » Mon May 26, 2008 8:32 pm

Ukonvasara wrote:...what in the world are you talking about? This year featured an extremely closely-matched final four, as well as all kinds of other great teams.
Tegan wrote:That isn't to take away from what the top teams accomplished.
I really wasn't talking about the final four. I didn't see those teams, but have little doubt that they were worthy teams that would have done as well or nearly as well in any season. I'll go even further and open that up to maybe the top 20-25 ... maybe even a few beyond that.

What I was talking about was the field overall. I saw teams make the playoffs that were embarrassingly poor (IMO). Teams that, again IMO, would not have went 5-5 in the past few years.

Please understand, I am not trying to say that the top teams this year are somehow less worthy ... they are not. I am just saying that it seemed that, looking at the field as a whole, there were fewer teams that I would consider truly "national caliber" than in the past few years.

To extend that to Illinois, I thought Auburn was one of the best Illinois teams I ever saw. They had a bad day in the playoffs (it happens). Wheaton North, New Trier, Loyola, Wheaton-Warrenville, the Napervilles, and Springfield were all pretty good, but outside of that there was a big drop off. That doesn't take away from what these teams accomplished .... it just means that I think there were fewer good teams out there.

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by BGSO » Mon May 26, 2008 8:40 pm

Tegan wrote:
BGSO wrote:Meeting with my coach on tuesday to discuss the tournaments we want to do. The list I will be asking for is...
UIUC earlybird
Northwester NAqT
NT solo
Wn kickoff
Carmel
New Trier Varsity
Fremd
Masonic
NAQT state
IHSA tournament
HSNCT (crosses fingers)
I wish you the best of luck, as this is a good list to work from.

Though, I will point out one suggestion.

I have really no problem with doing NAQT tournaments, but the Northwestern Tournament would not be on my personal list. We have gone twice, and the tournament is dying (seven years ago, over 50 teams, last year there were like 8). The officiating has been highly dubious, and the organization has been less than acceptable, especially given the unbelievably low turnout (I can imagine there being snafus with 40-50 teams in attendance, but it can't be too tough to run an 8 team field, when the questions are provided). Further, while there are a couple of really good teams, there are also some teams that are not really going to be worth your time, if you are looking to improve.

My two bits.

I hope it gets better but the history has not borne this out.
Northwestern is definitely the first one that will be eliminated from the list, and with the evidence you presented it seems like a logical choice to cut it out.

On a different note, how often and how do you guys practice? Obviously buzzer time is in there but what else?
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Auks Ran Ova » Mon May 26, 2008 8:42 pm

Tegan wrote:I really wasn't talking about the final four. I didn't see those teams, but have little doubt that they were worthy teams that would have done as well or nearly as well in any season. I'll go even further and open that up to maybe the top 20-25 ... maybe even a few beyond that.

What I was talking about was the field overall. I saw teams make the playoffs that were embarrassingly poor (IMO). Teams that, again IMO, would not have went 5-5 in the past few years.
I see what you mean. I think this is more of a function of the field being as large as it was, rather than some sort of decline in quality of teams. With a larger field, more and more average-ish teams begin to make the playoffs.
Please understand, I am not trying to say that the top teams this year are somehow less worthy ... they are not. I am just saying that it seemed that, looking at the field as a whole, there were fewer teams that I would consider truly "national caliber" than in the past few years.
Again, I think the opposite; there has been an increase in the number of very talented teams. However, with such a gigantic field, it's entirely possible that the percentage of, as you say, "national caliber" teams in the field has dropped.
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Mon May 26, 2008 9:20 pm

See, the problem with this kind of thinking is that it's totally subjective based on what teams enter the HSNCT. If we want to be making qualitative judgements about the season, we need to look at the entire nation's performance all season, in which case you will find probably more good teams this year than ever before and a continued massive group of mind-bogglingly poor teams, some of whom signed up for HSNCT and some of whom didnt.
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Deviant Insider » Mon May 26, 2008 9:49 pm

I'll go against Egan and recommend Northwestern. For one thing, the small field and the desire of a few good teams to play NAQT means that half of your games will be against strong teams. For another thing, the questions are good, and it's helpful to play a tournament with NAQT rules if you want to play HSNCT next May. For another thing, it's 4-on-4 and therefore doesn't count as one of your 18 dates. The organization/moderator issues he mentioned sometimes do happen and are generally a result of seemingly a new group of students running it each year.

Buzzer time is the most important thing during practice. It's also helpful to talk about what is coming up and what that means for the team, such as topics that are worth studying and how they are going to be studied, and to give out study guides. New Trier generally practices once or twice per week, and more often once than twice.
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by First Chairman » Mon May 26, 2008 10:43 pm

I'll also caveat Tom's observations (since I wasn't there) to say that it's too hard to compare some of the teams without a definitive statistical analysis. There are also self-selection effects that also could dilute the competitiveness of "the middle" because of the way teams qualify for the HSNCT. I would say though that the Bykowski ratings help to lend some idea on how competitive the middle is.

All I know is that the NSC middle is still very difficult. I'm surprised with self-selection how good our fields have always tended to be. Someone commented elsewhere about how PACE has shown a "rational unwillingness to expand (our field)".

I am a bit concerned about opening the floodgates too much to teams that may not be ready to take the next step, but I am not willing to close the door on teams that want to take their lumps to learn how to take the next step. It is difficult to balance those concerns, and there is a lot of thinking and discussion that the PACE group has to do if we are to expand our field. I don't want to dilute the characteristics of the NSC just because we want to expand the field.
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by JackGlerum » Mon May 26, 2008 11:31 pm

Re: BGSO's schedule

Earlybird is a great tournament.

I've never been to NW NAQT, but I know Mr. Riley echos Mr. Egan on this one. I can't remember the specific reasons, but I remember a "Riley Rant" about it once. That said, I know that some talented teams attended last year (NT, BHS, NN, AHS).

Something that Mr. Riley and I debated about a few weeks ago were the pros and cons of going to tournaments that tend to be far away and with less-than-perfect reputation. Lincoln-Way East, Kaneland, Naperville Central, and Boylan were all thrown into the mix. Any thoughts on going to these kinds of tournaments? (especially on weekends when there are no other tournaments)

Re: Practice

We practice every Tuesday and Thursday in-season. Our practices consist solely of buzzer time (usually a round and a half) and learning EXTREMELY important information (Peope from Kentucky, Hungarian Composers, etc). The F/S practices are on Mondays and Wednesdays and are much more learning-based rather than playing rounds. However, I don't want to give away Mr. Laird's deep dark secrets of F/S success!

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Tegan » Mon May 26, 2008 11:35 pm

Ukonvasara wrote: I think this is more of a function of the field being as large as it was, rather than some sort of decline in quality of teams. With a larger field, more and more average-ish teams begin to make the playoffs.
I couldn't definitively disagree. You may very well be right. I saw a handful of teams which qualified for the playoffs and I felt were not very good. I have seen (over the course of the season) some teams from a few states that finished relatively high at NAQT, and did not impress me very much throughout the year. Not to say they were average, mediocre, or bad ..... just to say they didn't look as good as some of the teams that I saw finish comparably in the past.

[
Ukonvasara wrote:Again, I think the opposite; there has been an increase in the number of very talented teams. However, with such a gigantic field, it's entirely possible that the percentage of, as you say, "national caliber" teams in the field has dropped.
As a trend, I could not agree more. There is no doubt in my mind that the gross number of great and good teams has increased over the past 5-10 years. I certainly do not want to suggest that my feelings in this one year are a trend ... merely a subjective observation that I believe is a one year tick; not a trend that we are seeing the start of a decline. Not only do I have no claim or evidence to a downward trend, I hope that the trend of more better teams continues to increase.

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Tue May 27, 2008 3:47 am

Want an NAQT tournament with all the pyramidal 4-on-4 goodness of Northwestern, without the high entry fee, small field size, and sub-standard staffing?

Rock Valley College in Rockford is hosting the 2nd Annual Decemberist on Dec. 6th! Last year's tournament saw Auburn and Bloomington, and we're hoping to draw more Chicago teams this year (last year, Loyola and New Trier had heard the packets already, and Wheaton North dropped out to allow their F-S to attend a tournament as well on the same day).
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Deviant Insider » Tue May 27, 2008 5:58 am

The Naperville Central Tournament has a good reputation. There were a few criticisms of it in this thread many pages ago, but those criticisms were focused on minor policies and a small number of problematic questions. Every tournament is imperfect.
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by David Riley » Tue May 27, 2008 10:50 am

I think I should clarify Mr. Glerum's post above, a bit:

1) Yes, I would think twice about Northwestern--as Mr. Reinstein points out, the questions are good but the tournament officials from the last year definitely need to provide solid direction for the coming year if the former won't be involved. The problems I found at Northwestern were similar to the now-defunct NIU Huskie Tournament, and after several years running, we decided to no longer attend--and they charge a whopping tournament fee ($95) as well.

2) I have never espoused Hungarian anything during a practice, just in private :grin: But in all seriousness...IMNSHO, the reason a lot of teams never get better (and I've probably gotten on this soapbox before, so forgive me) is that they have this attitude of "that will never come up". If you aspire to be a competitive player, and especially aspire to perform well at a national tournament, you need to--as Matt Weiner pointed out in another forum--not only read books and write questions, but adopt the attitude that "all knowledge is fair game". Fr/so I view somewhat differently, one needs to learn the basics first.

3) As Mr. Glerum pointed out, we debated the pros and cons of various tournaments. One of the tournaments he names uses questions from one of the worst writers in the country (again, IMNSHO) and I refuse to take my team to a tournament with knowingly bad questions, even though it would possibly mean more wins, and even though that might then help our chances at a seeding meeting where (often) the majority of coaches look only at the win/loss record without considering stength of schedule. The tournament director(s) say, "If I used more challenging questions, then my local contingency won't show up". I know some teams play quiz bowl jus for fun, but that shouldn't mean a tournament should play to the lowest common denominator.

This has been your Riley Rant of the day. We now return you to our regularly scheduled forum.
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Tue May 27, 2008 12:34 pm

NIU Tournament? Who ran that? (i.e. Honors program, etc.)
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by David Riley » Tue May 27, 2008 2:21 pm

It was the honors program, and there were consistent problems with moderating, etc., though I'm not sure why it eventually fizzled out.
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Tue May 27, 2008 2:29 pm

Intriguing. I'll have to see if they'd be interested in starting that up again this year under my watch.

Keep an eye out for an NAQT tournament in DeKalb sometime in early 09 :)
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by the return of AHAN » Tue May 27, 2008 4:46 pm

Well, the IESA Advisory Committee Meeting is coming up this Friday. As an active member of this committee, I'll consider any suggestions to bring before the committee at this time. I don't know what's already on the agenda, but I have submitted my usual quest to adopt the IHSA's version of the 'blurt' rule, as well as my new rule outlining that computation answers involving pi may be given in terms of pi and that if a question is to call for computation by 3.14, it must be stated at the start of the question. This was motivated by a kid buzzing in with "20 pi inches" and being ruled incorrect. While the rebounding team answered "62.8 inches" and was ruled correct. This, I feel, needs to be corrected with a specific proscription against this kind of hosiery.
Yeah, yeah, don't start on me about computation not being real quiz bowl. It's the way things are in Illinois and I hereby preempt any debate over whether middle school scholastic bowl should have computation because that, I believe, is NEVER going away.
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Tegan » Tue May 27, 2008 6:04 pm

BarringtonJP wrote:I'll consider any suggestions to bring before the committee at this time.
1. Tom Egan should not be forced to read Questions Galore questions ever again. The IESA thus votes to adopt special questions for when Tom Egan reads.

2. The IESA should vote to abolish southern Illinois.

3. The question writer can be flogged for including particular questions on Tom Egan's whim. Such subjects include odor eaters and Harry Potter.

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Deviant Insider » Tue May 27, 2008 6:05 pm

Beautiful--pi equals 3.14 in Illinois and 3.2 in Indiana.

Try these out:
For non-computational toss-ups, the preferred style is multi-clue, starting with a more challenging clue and ending with a clue that most teams should reasonably be expected to answer correctly. Buzzer-beater questions that virtually any team can be expected to answer after hearing only a few words are discouraged. Toss-ups should begin in a way that uniquely identifies the answer so that an expert in the subject could answer early without having to guess what the question is asking for.
Question writers and / or editors are encouraged to consider and research alternative correct answers and / or common, similar, or related incorrect answers and to list them with instructions to the moderator to “accept also”, “do not accept”, or “prompt on.”
Within the first few words or within the first clue, toss-up questions should uniquely identify what is being asked (by using a pronoun, or a phrase such as “identify the person” or “name the book”). Avoid starting toss-up questions with statements containing superfluous information that will cue a knowledgeable player to buzz in early with an applicable, germane, but incorrect answer. In no case should a toss-up begin by heading in one direction, then change direction and ask a completely different question.
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by dtaylor4 » Tue May 27, 2008 6:10 pm

Tegan wrote:
2. The IESA should vote to abolish Illinois south of I-72/Rt 36.
Not ALL of central/southern Illinois should be abolished.

Also, Litchfield isn't that far south.

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by JackGlerum » Tue May 27, 2008 10:09 pm

Tegan wrote:vote to abolish southern Illinois
Ah ha! I knew you would succumb to North Shore elitism soon enough. By the way, did you catch the Cubs win on national TV tonight? Or maybe watching Buehrle give up 5 in the first?

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Deviant Insider » Tue May 27, 2008 10:47 pm

Two outs in the bottom of the ninth with the Cubs up by one run, and there's a routine fly ball heading towards Soriano...Do you believe in Brant Brown? Do you believe in Brant Brown? Do you believe in Brant Brown?
David Reinstein
PACE VP of Outreach, Head Writer and Editor for Scobol Solo and Masonics (Illinois), TD for New Trier Scobol Solo and New Trier Varsity, Writer for NAQT (2011-2017), IHSSBCA Board Member, IHSSBCA Chair (2004-2014), PACE Member, PACE President (2016-2018), New Trier Coach (1994-2011)

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the return of AHAN
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by the return of AHAN » Tue May 27, 2008 11:08 pm

dtaylor4 wrote:
Tegan wrote:
2. The IESA should vote to abolish Illinois south of I-72/Rt 36.
Not ALL of central/southern Illinois should be abolished.

Also, Litchfield isn't that far south.

FWIW, the IESA's membership tapers off south of I-70 and is virtually nonexistent south of I-64: Columbia ICS, Cahokia Wirth, the East St. Louis schools, Waterloo, and, and, that's all I can find south of I-64. Waterloo has never played scholastic bowl, and Cahokia doesn't play anymore, despite posessing a State Runner-Up trophy from 2001.

Ironically, you want to dump southern Illinois, while the IESA gladly accepts those SIJHSAA schools looking for a scholastic bowl organization (which SIJHSAA is not).
Jeff Price
Barrington High School Coach
Barrington Station Middle School Coach (2013 MSNCT Champions, 2013 & 2017 Illinois Class AA State Champions)
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the return of AHAN
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by the return of AHAN » Tue May 27, 2008 11:24 pm

ReinsteinD wrote:Two outs in the bottom of the ninth with the Cubs up by one run, and there's a routine fly ball heading towards Soriano...Do you believe in Brant Brown? Do you believe in Brant Brown? Do you believe in Brant Brown?
I believe in Brant Brown.

and now, Alfonso Soriano
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Deviant Insider » Wed May 28, 2008 6:50 am

The Cubs motto: Oh Noes!
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Tegan » Wed May 28, 2008 1:12 pm

This is why I love Ron Santo ..... you can never accuse him of beting around a bush or not believeing what he says!

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by MLaudermith » Thu May 29, 2008 6:29 pm

Since I don't think anyone has said it yet, let me be the first to wish Carbondale, Auburn, and Wheaton North the best of luck at PACE. I just looked at the prelimary brackets and each team certainly has their work cut out for them.

I'll be at GMU moderating so I hope to see all three in action at least once. If you see me, please say hi. As the sole Illinois staffer (I believe), I may look somewhat depressed as I expect to be taunted mercilessly regarding our computational math, fixation on agriculture, and other uncouth practices. :wink:
Mike Laudermith, Scholastic Bowl Coach, Fenton High School
IHSSBCA Member-at-Large

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--geography tossup from the pioneering days of Illinois Scholastic Bowl

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Charley Pride » Fri May 30, 2008 12:55 am

styxman wrote:Want an NAQT tournament with all the pyramidal 4-on-4 goodness of Northwestern, without the high entry fee, small field size, and sub-standard staffing?

Rock Valley College in Rockford is hosting the 2nd Annual Decemberist on Dec. 6th! Last year's tournament saw Auburn and Bloomington, and we're hoping to draw more Chicago teams this year (last year, Loyola and New Trier had heard the packets already, and Wheaton North dropped out to allow their F-S to attend a tournament as well on the same day).
Brad, I will agree. I played for Auburn B that day, and it was a well-run tournament. Too bad the weather was awful...It was my first time playing in NAQT format in real competition, and I really loved it. Hats off, and I hope we attend next year.
Zahed Haseeb

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Fri May 30, 2008 4:37 am

Aub-ZH wrote:
styxman wrote:Want an NAQT tournament with all the pyramidal 4-on-4 goodness of Northwestern, without the high entry fee, small field size, and sub-standard staffing?

Rock Valley College in Rockford is hosting the 2nd Annual Decemberist on Dec. 6th! Last year's tournament saw Auburn and Bloomington, and we're hoping to draw more Chicago teams this year (last year, Loyola and New Trier had heard the packets already, and Wheaton North dropped out to allow their F-S to attend a tournament as well on the same day).
Brad, I will agree. I played for Auburn B that day, and it was a well-run tournament. Too bad the weather was awful...It was my first time playing in NAQT format in real competition, and I really loved it. Hats off, and I hope we attend next year.
Heh - you guys were signed up no later than an hour after I confirmed the tournament date with Coach Riley and the IHSSBCA Calendar :)
Brad Fischer
Head Editor, IHSA State Series

Winnebago HS ('06)
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by the return of AHAN » Sat May 31, 2008 4:55 pm

In IESA Advisory Committee action yesterday...

1.) The committee recommended that the director of the activity have the perrogative to toggle the 1-8 seeds within a sectional if a natural pairing (say, 2-7) creates an onerous travel time (driving two hours to get to regional, for example). This new language in the terms and conditions is consistent with the language in the IHSA terms.

2.) The committee recommended adding a layer to the record reporting process by having a page where teams post their game-by-game results, and not just their record and a paragraph. Few schools took advantage of the text box this year. Next year, entering your game-by-game results will be optional with the plan of making it mandatory for 2010.

3.) The committee recommended math answers involving pi should now be expressed in terms of pi unless the question specifically states that a decimal answer is needed in the first line of the question. This was argued for by yours truly, as well as Sister John, who eloquently pointed out that a question about, say, volume of a cylinder, should test whether they understand the concept and recall the formula to apply, and that questions testing the ability to multiply big numbers should be separate questions altogether. I pointed out that this rule change will result in more students correctly answering computation questions as pi computation toss-ups/bonuses often go dead. That seemed to pull the waverers off the fence.

4.) The committee considered a suggestion that the only correct answers involving names of nations should be those which used the official United Nations title. Once Art Mattson pointed out that this would mean, for example, Democratic People's Republic of Korea would be required for an answer about North Korea, which would now be a wrong answer, the idea fizzled pretty quickly. We're just going to ask that QGalore make sure that all acceptable alternative answers are listed, as well as possible wrong answers students might use.

5.) The committee recommended the following words (in italics) to rule 5 section 4, art. 5 All fractions and ratios must be expressed in lowest terms unless otherwise noted.
This was to clear up confusion regarding how to handle ratio questions, which I think most people, committee included, assumed were to be handled like fractions.

6.) The committee recommended that the following language regarding illegal communication now be included as rule 7 section1 art. 2f. Answering a communication device such as a cellphone, blackberry, etc.
This language makes it illegal for a player to answer their cell phone or look at a text message while they are in a game. The penalty will be the same as any other illegal communication penalty, which is forfeiture of the right to answer the current question (toss-up or bonus). A casebook scenario will be created for this instance, as well as one where a player's cell phone goes off but they simply silence it instead of answering it. In the 2nd case, no penalty is recommended, but in the former case, Tom Egan will now be authorized to boil the kid in oil, just like he always dreamed.

7.) The committee, after much deliberation and assurances that rule section 1, article e (which says no one can answer without buzzing in was not going anywhere, recommended the following change to article f: If a player after triggering the lockout system and gaining possession, but before being recognized by the moderator, blurts out the answer, the only penalty is that a correct answer will be worth 5 points instead of 10 points. An incorrect answer is ruled incorrect with no penalty. Make no mistake, Sister John was masterful in helping me make my argument, going all Socrates and asking, "Why recognize the kids at all?" Of course, they agreed that recognizing the kids is an important part of maintaining order and insuring the right kid is answering. She then essentially said that if we're punishing a kid who buzzed correctly but just got too excited to contain himself, the former punishment was overkill and typically levied on the least experienced and youngest players; players we should be encouraging. Motion carried by unanimous vote. [Price hops out of chair, runs over to white board and writes, "Price 1, Bad Quizbowl 0", and does his special touchdown dance, usually reserved for solving difficult problems during a math lesson.]

8.) The committee recommended recategorizing consumer economics as General Information, but keeping Economics as a Social Studies category. Got that? Put your commerical jingles in with the pop music, TV, and sports! Health questions are now under science, since most health questions can be categorized as life science. Fitness questions are still General Information. An additional category of 'cross-categorical' was agreed to and also placed under General Information. This will serve as a place for those questions that fit under multiple categories, much as IHSA has interdisciplinary. Also, behind the scenes maneuvering of questions was agreed to by a representative of the question review committee for state series in an effort to avoid non-academic questions appearing in the final 3 bonus or toss-up questions of state series, though no actual by-law to support this was drafted.

9.) The committee recommended a format for 7-team regionals that would involve 4 rounds. This is to put something in place in case the activity grows to the point where such a large regional is necessary.

10.) The committee asked the IESA Action Committee to consider whether a split into 3 classes is necessary and feasible. You heard me.

11.) The committee recommended that coaches sign and submit a sportsmanship card at regionals to confirm that they understand their responsibility to exhibit good sportsmanship, to follow the rules set forth by the IESA, to address any special circumstances involving their players with the officials. This last statement is a nod to those teams that may have a player with special needs, that need to be given some flexibility...i.e. A player with Tourette's syndrome who jerks their head periodically, shouldn't be penalized for illegal signaling, an autistic player who tends to answer loudly or wave his arms after buzzing shouldn't be scolded by the moderator. Most coaches handle this privately anyway. This card simply states the coaches have a right to do so.
Last edited by the return of AHAN on Sat May 31, 2008 11:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Tegan » Sat May 31, 2008 6:45 pm

BarringtonJP wrote:In IESA Advisory Committee action yesterday...

... had a party going on, and everyone was invited ...
CONGRATULATIONS Coach Price!!

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by Stephen Colbert » Sat May 31, 2008 7:39 pm

BarringtonJP wrote:In IESA Advisory Committee action yesterday...

3.) The committee recommended math answers involving pi should now be expressed in terms of pi unless the question specifically states that a decimal answer is needed in the first line of the question...

5.) The committee recommended the following words (in italics) to rule 5 section 4, art. 5 All fractions and ratios must be expressed in lowest terms unless otherwise noted.
This was to clear up confusion regarding how to handle ratio questions, which I think most people, committee included, assumed were to be handled like fractions.

8.) The committee recommended recategorizing consumer economics as General Information, but keeping Economics as a Social Studies category. Got that? Put your commerical jingles in with the pop music, TV, and sports! Health questions are now under science, since most health questions can be categorized as life science. Fitness questions are still General Information. An additional category of 'cross-categorical' was agreed to and also placed under General Information. This will serve as a place for those questions that fit under multiple categories, much as IHSA has interdisciplinary. Also, behind the scenes maneuvering of questions was agreed to be a representative of the question review committee for state series in an effort to avoid non-academic questions appearing in the final 3 bonus or toss-up questions of state series, though no actual by-law to support this was drafted.
While not necessarily applicable to regular season play, these changes probably should be disseminated amongst the more commonly used question-suppliers so that everyone is on the same page.
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by David Riley » Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:54 am

Good luck to Team Illinois this weekend!
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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by JackGlerum » Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:48 am

I second Mr. Riley, good luck to TI at Panasonic.

Illinois at PACE NSC:

Auburn 5-2
Carbondale 4-3
Wheaton North 4-3

I think you had to be 6-1 to make it to Sunday. Good job to all for going over .500 though.

EDIT: Nevermind, they played on Sunday too... I think.

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Re: Illinois '07-'08

Post by MLaudermith » Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:17 pm

Well, I just got back from my trip to DC and PACE. I have to say the PACE-NSC was awesome, superior to the HSNCT in both questions quality and format in my opinion. GMU was a great setting (despite torrential rain on Saturday) and Dr. Chuck and the other organizers were terrific. I will say that the championship match was every bit as exciting to watch as it's been described on other threads. I had the good fortune to read for TJ-A in one round on Saturday and they are one classy team of quizbowlers. I should also point out the good sportsmanship shown by Dallas of MLK (acknowledging the other team's alternate answer as correct) in another Saturday round. In general, all of the teams I read for showed fine teamwork and enthusiasm, and I only witnessed one blatant act of bad sportsmanship.

I did get to see Wheaton North and Auburn in action and both teams played their hearts out. Not surprisingly, WN went 7-for-7 on Math Calculation bonuses on Saturday (though the level of difficulty varied wildly, from integral calculus to finding the equation for a line). I know Auburn came within 1-2 questions of making the Consolation Championship match. I believe (though I can't find the stats online) all three Illinois teams finished in the top half of the consolation pool. Going into the consolation rounds on Sunday, Rockford Auburn was seeded #4 (16 out of 48 in the overall field), Carbondale was #8, and Wheaton North was #11. I hope more Illinois team begin attending PACE in the future. Coach Greene and I got to talking after the Championship match and we may see the first PACE-format tournament held in Illinois next year.

Anyway, it's good to be back and I also wish Team Illinois the best of luck at Panasonic.

On a related Nationals note, I plan to follow in the good Mr. Egan's footsteps tomorrow and shuffle over to Rosemont to witness the :chip: show for myself. Anyone else from Chicagoland going to be in the audience? Also, anyone happen to know what two IL teams are supposed to be there? I can't seem to find them on the QU website.
Mike Laudermith, Scholastic Bowl Coach, Fenton High School
IHSSBCA Member-at-Large

"Where can you belt back a fifth of scotch on the Firth of Forth?"
--geography tossup from the pioneering days of Illinois Scholastic Bowl

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