Illinois '07-'08

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Post by JackGlerum » Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:03 am

David Riley wrote:2. Fenwick
3. St. Ignatius
The CCL comes through. (Gasp!)

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Post by Tegan » Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:06 am

JohnGlerum wrote:I promote the Scholastic "Bowl Championship Series" in which only two teams duke it out and everyone endlessly complains about the flawed system only leading to further scobowl chaos. Sponsored too. You know, the "Homer's Ice Cream Jesuit Bowl" and the "Northbrook Renaissance Hotels Bowl."
I don't even know how to respond to this one, other than to say that your coaches are clearly not beating you enough ......

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Post by Tegan » Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:43 am

JohnGlerum wrote:
David Riley wrote:2. Fenwick
3. St. Ignatius
The CCL comes through. (Gasp!)

WHAT!!!!????? Try the North Metro League ..... you know, the League Loyola got kicked out of for winning all the time.

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Post by David Riley » Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:52 pm

Actually, we left of our own volition...there wasn't enough vocational ed and industrial arts :wink:

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Post by Deviant Insider » Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:13 am

New Trier Masonic Sectional Bracket:
Quadrant I: Stevenson vs Glenbrook South, Antioch vs Fenwick
Quadrant II: Latin vs Loyola, Palatine vs Lake Zurich
Quadrant III: New Trier vs Grayslake Central, St Ignatius vs Fremd
Quadrant IV: Maine South vs Fenton, Libertyville vs Tepeyac
The semis are I vs II and III vs IV.
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Post by First Chairman » Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:20 am

Tegan wrote:
JohnGlerum wrote:I promote the Scholastic "Bowl Championship Series" in which only two teams duke it out and everyone endlessly complains about the flawed system only leading to further scobowl chaos. Sponsored too. You know, the "Homer's Ice Cream Jesuit Bowl" and the "Northbrook Renaissance Hotels Bowl."
I don't even know how to respond to this one, other than to say that your coaches are clearly not beating you enough ......
Be very careful what you wish for... the IHSA may take it under advisement.
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Post by Deviant Insider » Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:48 am

Be very careful what you wish for... the IHSA may take it under advisement.
That statement does not apply to students or coaches.
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Post by Tegan » Thu Jan 31, 2008 5:50 pm

ReinsteinD wrote:New Trier Masonic Sectional Bracket:
Quadrant I: Stevenson vs Glenbrook South, Antioch vs Fenwick
Quadrant II: Latin vs Loyola, Palatine vs Lake Zurich
Quadrant III: New Trier vs Grayslake Central, St Ignatius vs Fremd
Quadrant IV: Maine South vs Fenton, Libertyville vs Tepeyac
The semis are I vs II and III vs IV.
I'm sending off Libertyville at -280, with an over/under at 300

The Wildcats will feast well on this day.

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Post by JackGlerum » Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:56 pm

Tegan wrote:I'm sending off Libertyville at -280, with an over/under at 300

The Wildcats will feast well on this day.
Given that Libertyville most likely has more girls in its freshman class than all of Tepeyac, I would put all my money on Libert...

Wait, nevermind, I will defend the nice Catholic girls! Upset city!

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Post by mlaird » Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:23 am

SNOW

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Post by JohnAndSlation » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:02 am

mlaird wrote:SNOW
YAY!
Brigette Demke, ex-Maine South

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Post by Tegan » Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:25 pm

JohnAndSlation wrote:
mlaird wrote:SNOW
YAY!
Stay warm and safe, y'all.

Man, even when no one else is in school, the computers are slower than molasses.

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Post by the return of AHAN » Fri Feb 08, 2008 11:30 am

What happened with the seeding meetings?
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Post by mlaird » Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:11 pm

BarringtonJP wrote:What happened with the seeding meetings?
Mother Nature wrote:SNOW

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Post by the return of AHAN » Fri Feb 08, 2008 11:04 pm

mlaird wrote:
BarringtonJP wrote:What happened with the seeding meetings?
Mother Nature wrote:SNOW
Thanks, Tom Skilling. :razz:
I meant, weren't they held last night? Or did they say 'screw it', no one shows when we schedule 12 months in advance, let's just draw for position?!?!?
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Post by Deviant Insider » Fri Feb 08, 2008 11:47 pm

To the best of my knowledge, 7 meetings took place Wednesday as originally scheduled, 7 took place Thursday after a one day postponement, two were phoned in because the IHSA didn't want to keep postponing them and Thursday wasn't a good day for the schools/hosts. Based on what I've heard, attendance generally was even lower than normal.

Our seeds are New Trier, OPRF, Lake Forest, Loyola Academy, Fenwick, Maine South, Notre Dame, and Deerfield. Our meeting was one of the two that did not take place, and the seeds largely reflect teams' records.

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Post by cornfused » Sat Feb 09, 2008 1:08 am

OPRF and Lake Forest above Loyola? Is there something I'm missing?

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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:34 am

I guess team records...? Also, why are there seeds for this kind of thing going in, don't you do that after a few prelim games?
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Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:08 am

Deesy Does It wrote:I guess team records...? Also, why are there seeds for this kind of thing going in, don't you do that after a few prelim games?
Nope - the seasons up until now count as the prelim games. In fact, in terms of the "here's the start of the 'state tournament' where we have every school involved" phase of the tournament (Regionals), it's single-elimination. Teams are geographically placed into 8 Sectionals, then each Sectional seeds its teams on performance so far (or any other reason to rank teams wherever) and creates 4 Regionals from that. Only at Sectionals is there any sort of pool play - the four Regional champs play a four team pool, best record after 3 games makes it to State.

Funn, isn't it?

ETA: Also, did it revert to just seeding top 8 again? I know the Sub-Sectional idea got scrapped...

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Post by Deviant Insider » Sat Feb 09, 2008 9:08 am

New Trier (19-1), OPRF (19-1), Lake Forest (20-3), Loyola (26-12), Fenwick (24-12), Maine South (21-8), Notre Dame (17-7), Deerfield (10-3)

This counts only 5-on-5 matches, and the records were weighted to reward teams that play more matches.

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Post by crobbins52 » Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:48 pm

So yeah. NCIC Conference meet today at Princeton. Fun tourney, thanks Princeton.

NCIC Regan Division winner - Sterling
NCIC Lincoln Division Winner - Princeton
Overall Conference Champ - Dixon.

Tom Say for Sterling and Funstein (sp., first name?) for Princeton owned up on the tossups.
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Post by mlaird » Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:07 pm

Team Illinois tomorrow? Any takers?

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Post by Deviant Insider » Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:57 pm

Trying Out:
New Trier: Robert Sido & Ben Cohen
Carbondale: Paul Botros, Tony Cao, Jerry Chang
Maine South: Jimmy Grizzell & Andrew Deveau
Williamsville: Kurt Fowler
IMSA: Bonny Jain
Springfield: Carl Butt & Caitie Flynn
Wheaton North: Greg Gauthier, Jonathan Irving, Kevin Ngo
Wheaton Warrenville South: Curt Peterson
Macomb: Cullen Seaton
Loyola: Michael Verity & Joseph Ahmad
Moline: Mohammed Hussain
Buffalo Grove: Danny Bulmash
Byron: Aaron Deets
Bloomington: Hunter Fast
Auburn: Siva Sundaram, John Brown, Michael Jiang

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Post by David Riley » Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:09 pm

Congratulations to Team Illinois 2008:


John Brown, Auburn HS, Rockford
Greg Gauthier, Wheaton North HS,Wheaton
Curt Peterson, Wheaton-Warrenville South HS, Wheaton
Siva Sundaram, Auburn HS, Rockford
Mike Verity, Loyola Academy, Wilmette

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Post by OP_Huskies » Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:50 pm

OPRF and Lake Forest above Loyola? Is there something I'm missing?
As far as I know, OPRF has only lost one match this year, to Fenwick at the IHSSBCA kickoff

Of course, their other matches have been:

10-0 in WSC competition (a conference we spent the last two years pummelling)
victory at Fenton turnabout (which, by virtue of being a turnabout, provides at best mediocre competition)
and the 4 or 5 other wins they notched at the kickoff

which yields what, about 21, 22-1?

Which only demonstrates the flaws in IHSA's seeding system. We go 33-4 last year with our four losses to NT, Bloomington, Libertyville, and Hinsdale South (we were missing three of our 6 best players that day for ARML tryouts), while having beaten MS, WN, Loyola, ME, Latin, Stevenson, before the seeding, and end up getting seeded third in our subsectional, solely by virtue of the fact that we hadn't played as many games as Fenwick/St. Ignatius.

Understand, both the aforementioned teams are very good teams and seeding could have gone any way. My point is, the fact that we were clearly better last year than this year and that this year's OP team gets a "top 4" seed in sectionals is, well, ...

Yes, I am also jealous/upset because I am no longer on the team.

Best,
JB from OP

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Post by patjm6163 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:51 pm

what happens to the all-sectional voting now (in m.s. sectional because of the snow. Will this list be chosen off of stats too?

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Post by mlaird » Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:09 pm

patjm6163 wrote:what happens to the all-sectional voting now (in m.s. sectional because of the snow. Will this list be chosen off of stats too?
We're working this out right now. What do you think should happen?

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Post by Tegan » Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:24 pm

OP_Huskies wrote: Which only demonstrates the flaws in IHSA's seeding system.
I couldn't agree more ..... the system is highly flawed! At issue is the fact that far too many teams do not play enough outside of their conference to get any semblance of an idea as to how good they are.

At fault this year was the fact that the meeting was snowed out, and the IHSA was rather insistent that seeding be done by Thursday afternoon. A number of issues made it impossible to convene the meeting on Thursday, after it was snowed out on Wednesday. The seeding had to be done (sadly) with far less input than it should have had.

I am trying to stay unbiased, but I will come out and say my opinion and label it as such: the main conferences being represented (Central and West Suburban) are overall, as in top to bottom, fairly weak.

That is not to say that there aren't deserving teams .... New Trier speaks for itself. OPRF has been exceptional in the past years. Deerfield had a couple of nice seasons a few years ago. Outside of that, these conferences really have sported next to little competition on their best days. Maine East has had some moments of grandeur, granted, but has been unable to finish the season. Downers Grove made it down state last year, but the only question was whether they would break 150 in any match .... the only thing that kept them from going 0-3 was Joliet.

Are there weaker conferences out there? Sure! Are there stronger? Not many (I nominate the DVC as the conference of the year though).

this brings us back to seeding. Until schools start insisting that teams play a non conference schedule as a condition to playing in regionals (and that likely won't happen), there will be coaches who will keep saying "look, my team is 2-0 ... make us the #1 seed" (which did happen once, but not in this sectional).

I understand the usual reasons given: the kids are too busy with other things; I'm too busy with other things ..... we're all busy to differing degrees ..... but seeding is something you earn based on performance, not based on presumption of strength. Unfortunately, too many people just look at the record and don't know enough about the strength of a team's schedule ... so the 20-1 team gets voted high even though they have zero quality wins, while the 22-4 team gets voted down. I'll even go as far as to say that some of those other teams get voted down because there exists a certain level of resentment about teams that can go out and play more.

Understand: last year MS was 2-1 vs. New Trier at the time of the seed meeting. We were 1-2 vs. Wheaton North, and that with OPRF was the only team we had losing records to. Our wins, winning percentage, and enhanced winning percentage put us first in every conceivable way. Yet, one coach put us as the two seed. True, future events proved that coach right, but there was still very little argument to vote that way at the time. Coaches will vote their hearts, and not often enough, with their heads.

Complaints about the MS sectional seeding are directed to me. I did it. I did my best to take into account what the sectional coaches would have wanted vs. my own thoughts (honestly, in this group, I would have put MS third behind NT and LF ..... possibly as high as second. I would have more stringently used match experience vs. winning percentage ... I might have even ranked Fenton into the top 8. But rather than do what I wanted, I tried to take into account what I thought others would have done. So, we are where we are. Its hardly perfect, and in this sectional's case, I take the blame for the screw up that it is ..... though in all honesty, I'm not so sure it would have turned out dramatically different had there been more coaches around. I'm not self-apologizing ..... I got numerous complaints after I had to make changes ...... I pretty much deserved them.

There will, by hook or by crook, be some suggestion to change this on the IHSA agenda. Not only do I never want to go through this again, I don't want anyone else to go through it again either.

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Post by patjm6163 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:51 pm

mlaird wrote:
We're working this out right now. What do you think should happen?
Assuming all coaches have submitted their all-sectional nominees, the fairest though the feasibility could be argued, would be to computerize all the nominee forms, send these (email) to all the coaches in the sectional, and if I'm not mistaken they vote in order from #1 to #whatever, by a certain date to speed up the process. However as stated, this may also pose as the least feasible thing to do due to time constraints.. . Though I question my own credentials to put my two cents in as just a high school senior.

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Post by JackGlerum » Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:31 am

Tegan wrote:Unfortunately, too many people just look at the record and don't know enough about the strength of a team's schedule ... so the 20-1 team gets voted high even though they have zero quality wins, while the 22-4 team gets voted down.
Sorry to keep bringing up the striking similarities to the flawed BCS, but I can't help myself. I don't even know if anyone in the scobowl world follows college football. (btw I wasn't serious about the Homer's Ice Cream Jesuit Bowl)

See 2008 Sugar Bowl. Hawai'i comes in 12-0 with zero quality wins and gets absolutely destroyed by 10-2 Georgia from the mighty SEC. This is what Mr. Egan is talking about, the records being deceiving and thus ranking being very difficult.

And congrats to John, Greg, Curt, Siva, and Mike.

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Post by David Riley » Wed Feb 13, 2008 4:52 pm

It would help if records were kept throughout the season, as is done to some extent in Speech and Debate. We actually tried to do this one year, until a team whined that they didn't want the world to know that they were 48th in a 48-team tournament. THEN WORK HARDER!

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Post by RSido » Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:38 pm

That's kind of ridiculous... it's not like performance determines how proud your fans are of you *cough* Cubs *cough*. You don't see Cubs fans whining about how awful their team is. If anything, the team should be glad that such a system was in place- at least this way they know where exactly they stand.
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Post by OP_Huskies » Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:47 pm

Obviously, given the fact that IHSA and Masonics have their own ideas about how things are done there is little we can do to change their policies on seeding, state tourneys, etc.

However, I have heard the idea floated out of some sort of "IHSSBCA state tourney." I think there are upsides and downsides to this idea (upside = a "true" state tourney that offers us scobol players the confidence that the best teams are picked to go. Downside = cost, 3 (!) state tourneys??)

I was thinking about this this morning, and about how such a tourney would work. The main gripes with the current system, as I see them are,

1) state tourney bids are purely geographic
2) seeding is kind of a crapshoot

Here's my idea for such a theoretical state tourney. The IHSSBCA would published a list of "IHSSBCA sponsored" tournaments each year, much as it publishes a list of tournaments that happen now. For each such tourney, a team would be offered a number of points, perhaps something along the line of 1 pt/win (against A-teams), 2pts/playoff win, and then points for placement (points awarded to the top 2/4/8 teams depending on how large the field is).

At the end of the year, a team's "total score" would be the sum of the scores for the best N (N = 3?, 5?) tourneys. Again, this could include tournaments such as conference tournaments, masonics regionals, ihsa sectionals, etc. Top M (M=16? 8? 24? etc) teams are seeded and allowed entrance to "IHSSBCA state"

The good parts of this system is that it rewards teams that play at tournaments outside their conference, and for doing well at these tournaments. Also, I think it is important to "cap" the number of tournaments for which points are offered, so as not to give teams advantages for just going to 12 or 15 tournaments.

Basically, the system is designed to seed tournament placement ahead of pure record.

The downside is that there is still a geographic aspect to it. Teams in areas with fewer good teams will play in tournaments in fewer good teams, and thus have an advantage. However, the system is not purely geographic in the sense that IHSA/masonics are; a team doesn't get a state big solely by virtue of having no top-20 teams in its area. Also, it requires teams to get out and show what they are capable of.

Thoughts?

JB

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Post by Tegan » Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:08 pm

OP_Huskies wrote:Thoughts?
I like the idea, in theory, however, as you pointed out, there are certain weaknesses.

One of the biggest: what do you say to the team that strictly plays within their conference and then demands high seeding because they are 10-0.

Personally, I would say "too bad".

Maybe, given the direction of the Masonics this year, the time has come to run two simultaneous state tournaments: one for downstate teams (the Masonic, so they can hand out their money to the poorer schools), and an IHSSBCA State for the upstate schools ...... run them parallel.

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Post by Siverus Snape » Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:36 pm

Yeah, but I don't think the upstate schools will be willing to give up a chance at some money.

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Post by harpersferry » Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:49 pm

I'll beat Mr. Riley to the punch in saying that there already are 3 state tournaments, as NAQT does count as a "state" tournament.

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Post by OP_Huskies » Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:07 pm

One of the biggest: what do you say to the team that strictly plays within their conference and then demands high seeding because they are 10-0.
If that team only plays in their conference and goes 10-0, they rack up points for winning conference. Other teams are racking up points for 3, 4, or 5 tourneys, putting the 10-0 team at a distinct disadvantage.

The rules & scoring system would be made clear to all, so "too bad" is a fair answer
I'll beat Mr. Riley to the punch in saying that there already are 3 state tournaments, as NAQT does count as a "state" tournament.
I meant strictly state tourneys that culminate the year, though my point remains ... I don't know how many teams would be willing to add an extra "state" tourney to their year.

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Regional assignments

Post by Matt Bardoe » Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:00 am

IHSA regionals are not up on the scholastic bowl page, but there is some information on the ever fabulous ScoreZone. Check out

http://www.ihsa.org/scores/8r04scb1.htm for Class A

and

http://www.ihsa.org/scores/8r04scb2.htm for Class AA

Thoughts about what will be the most competitive regional??? In Chicagoland, I like Buffalo Grove Regional. Mundelein, St. Viator, Buffalo Grove, and Libertyville are all good teams.

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Post by OP_Huskies » Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:11 am

Loyola regional looks decent ... unfortunately, Loyola/Fenwick are two of the 4 best teams in the sectional, and one will have to go down.

Overall, the North/West suburb sectional is not what it was last year ...

JB

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Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh » Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:54 am

Re: IHSSBCA State - I think it's pretty well agreed upon here that there's a circuit of good established tournaments with quality questions and strong fields - Earlybird in October, Kickoff in November, NT Varsity in December. If these tournaments could be mirrored across the state a la Kickoff - for example, use NT Varsity's set at the RVC Decemberist, which would then change to Dec 15, etc. - then statistics could be compared across tournaments. If one tournament each in Oct/Nov/Dec/Jan/Feb could be done in this fashion, you'd have five tournaments worth of statistics for teams across the state in an "IHSSBCA Series" sort of manner. You could also include stats and records from other tournaments as has been suggested.

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Post by Deviant Insider » Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:57 pm

An IHSSBCA State Championship is not going to happen any time soon.

Traditionally, the main complaints against the state tournaments was question quality. Based on the quality of last year's IHSA questions, the expected quality of this year's Masonic questions, and the general quality of NAQT questions, I don't believe at this time that IHSSBCA would be capable of delivering better questions then the ones currently being offered.

Right now, there are complaints about regional assignments and pairings. Specifically, it would be better if there was some flexibility in Sectional assignments so that some effort was made to split up elite teams and an effort made to make sure that the very best teams at State did not meet at the beginning. I agree with the complaints, but in this case the proposed cure is worse than the problem.

IHSA Sectionals are seeded by the coaches in a generally fair process, and if some questionable voting leads to teams that are one or two seeds off, then it shouldn't make that big of a difference and it's still the best system we could pull off. Masonic Sectionals are seeded by the Tournament Director, and there is some effort made to separate top teams--it would be better if there was more input from coaches, but it's a lot of work to get input from most coaches.

Still, the idea that we are going to turn down $25000 per year in scholarship money and general funding because we don't like their seeding procedure does not make sense. Also, they generally have seeded State fairly, so there is hope that this is a one-time experiment that will go poorly. Additionally, because of the weight IHSA carries with school administrators, there is no chance that IHSSBCA will ever be able to attract half as many teams. Furthermore, IHSA has improved their tournament significantly over the years. It might even things out if Wheaton North got sent somewhere else so that the West Suburbs could get two teams downstate to reflect their overall team quality, but that's not an idea worth ending a state tournament over. It also would be nice if Wheaton North and Auburn weren't in the same half of the state bracket, but I don't see any real way to fix this problem without causing much bigger problems.

Do not look at IHSSBCA as a solution to all of Scholastic Bowl's problems. We are currently near capacity in our current role, and the school boards who pay the bills generally have never heard of us. We make mistakes too, and our Steering Committee and members disagree on pretty much every issue. I'm proud of the many things we do, and I'm glad that we have helped the IHSA and Masons run better tournaments than they used to, but change is slow and difficult.

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Re: Regional assignments

Post by the return of AHAN » Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:30 pm

Matt Bardoe wrote:IHSA regionals are not up on the scholastic bowl page, but there is some information on the ever fabulous ScoreZone. Check out

http://www.ihsa.org/scores/8r04scb1.htm for Class A

and

http://www.ihsa.org/scores/8r04scb2.htm for Class AA

Thoughts about what will be the most competitive regional??? In Chicagoland, I like Buffalo Grove Regional. Mundelein, St. Viator, Buffalo Grove, and Libertyville are all good teams.
OK, I'll bite. Is Lake Zurich really a #3 seed? Seriously? Ahead of Buffalo Grove AND Libertyville? Did I miss something? Are they THAT good this year? I can see from their web site they have a winning record, and they most likely deserve a seed, but I'm surprised they are ahead of those two schools. If anyone thinks I'm off-base and can explain it, I'm all ears. Until then, I'd say that's the least competitive one in the ZB sectional. I'm anxious to see how tonight's Barrington-Fremd rematch plays out, seeing that BHS is in Fremd's regional! It's tempting to promote our super sophs, to see what we have in time for the playoffs, though it'd be at the expense of our long-shot hopes of winning the frosh-soph MSL (must beat Fremd by 210!)....
Jeff Price
Barrington High School Coach
Barrington Station Middle School Coach (2013 MSNCT Champions, 2013 & 2017 Illinois Class AA State Champions)
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Post by David Riley » Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:56 pm

Re some of Mr. Reinstein's comments above:

1) I certainly wouldn't give up the (Masonic) money either, but I am curious why they seeded the way they did: won't the Wheaton Norths and the Auburns come out on top, regardless of seeding? Honestly, what chance does a Class A school have (with the possible exception of Latin) of beating such powerhouses?

2) Earlier on this board Mr. Reinstein responded to my comment about an IHSSBCA tournament for competitive purposes that (paraphrase) we already have one, the NAQT State. Perhaps. But even some of the best teams in the state are not crazy about NAQT format. A competitive tournament that is supplementary to the IHSA tournament is what I advocated.

3) Every IHSA administrator in my 15-year tenure has said that the purpose of the IHSA State Series is not to crown the best team in the state. Again, perhaps. But that is how most of the state perceives it. I've known coaches with a less-than-stellar record at tournaments against some strong teams, yet they get downstate they are lauded. I know IU sound like a broken record, but many schools south of I-72 have a cakewalk (again, relatively?) to the IHSA State Tournament while some execellent teams in the northeast have to duke it out. My advocacy of an IHSSBCA state tournament was not to replace the IHSA State Series, but to crown a (relatively) true champion. With often less than ten teams, I'm not sure the NAQT State Tournament can claim this.

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Post by Deviant Insider » Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:04 am

For the Masons, remember that 2nd-4th places get money too. Last year, the two North Suburban schools took the biggest prizes. This year, of the two suburban schools, one will at best get 1st and the other will at best get the Consolation Championship.

I think that people asking for another State Championship are assuming that a lot of people around the state are just like them, and it is a bad assumption. About half the teams in Illinois don't enter Masonics, and my guess is that if you called around and asked why they didn't, you would find that it's because:
A. It's too hard to get out of bed on a Saturday morning--they are already doing 'enough', and they don't see a need to enter two state tournaments that occur back-to-back.
B. They didn't realize they could enter because they recycle everything that comes their way with the words Scholastic Bowl on it.
C. They don't have the budget even though there is no entry fee due to transportation costs.

You might find one or two that don't go because the questions have always been bad in the past, they heard the questions were going to be pyramidal this year, or they had a bad experience with the tournament in the past. Maybe.

Into that mix steps the IHSSBCA, which states that our questions will be similar to the other tournaments and that everybody should go to ours because we'll guarantee that all the top teams play all the bottom teams in the first round, the latter point being something that unfortunately only good teams are in favor of. The other things that will distinguish our tournament from the IHSA and Masons is that we will charge an entry fee and not have any teams that enter due to inertia. We can discuss this at a Steering Committee Meeting if you want, but, as you can see, I have my doubts.

As far as the IHSA is concerned, it is debatable whether or not it crowns a true Champion since it uses basically single-elimination with uneven roads to the Championship. Nobody claims that the eight teams who make it to the Finals are the top eight teams, especially teams from Chicagoland. We could try to design a tournament where it would be possible for the top eight teams to make it to the Finals and each team there would have an equal chance to win the Championship, but we would have to weigh costs vs benefits.

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Post by David Riley » Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:56 am

Mr. Egan once said that too much in Scholastic Bowl is decied upon reputation rather than records. At the very least, and if Ken Dentino is still willing to do it, tournament directors could submit complete records to a central location throughout the season. Then--and especially if inclement weather once again is a problem--the sectional hosts could seed teams based upon a record of their performance that could include number of matches and strength of schedule.

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Re: Regional assignments

Post by BGSO » Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:16 pm

BarringtonJP wrote:
Matt Bardoe wrote:IHSA regionals are not up on the scholastic bowl page, but there is some information on the ever fabulous ScoreZone. Check out

http://www.ihsa.org/scores/8r04scb1.htm for Class A

and

http://www.ihsa.org/scores/8r04scb2.htm for Class AA

Thoughts about what will be the most competitive regional??? In Chicagoland, I like Buffalo Grove Regional. Mundelein, St. Viator, Buffalo Grove, and Libertyville are all good teams.
OK, I'll bite. Is Lake Zurich really a #3 seed? Seriously? Ahead of Buffalo Grove AND Libertyville? Did I miss something? Are they THAT good this year? I can see from their web site they have a winning record, and they most likely deserve a seed, but I'm surprised they are ahead of those two schools. If anyone thinks I'm off-base and can explain it, I'm all ears. Until then, I'd say that's the least competitive one in the ZB sectional. I'm anxious to see how tonight's Barrington-Fremd rematch plays out, seeing that BHS is in Fremd's regional! It's tempting to promote our super sophs, to see what we have in time for the playoffs, though it'd be at the expense of our long-shot hopes of winning the frosh-soph MSL (must beat Fremd by 210!)....
BG lost to LZ at the fremd tourney though anyone one of us would say we sucked that whole day (Do you ever play well when you lose?), The problem with the seeds IMO, is that like many have stated above me, there is no fine line drawn between strength of schedule and WL. Not to mention where does head to head fit in there?

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Post by Tegan » Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:07 pm

ReinsteinD wrote:Nobody claims that the eight teams who make it to the Finals are the top eight teams, especially teams from Chicagoland.
I believe that is in fact exactly what the Joliet newspapers were claiming of their beloved Steelmen last year.

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Post by Tegan » Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:24 pm

Masonic Sectional results .....

Wheaton North defeated Wheaton-Warrenville South .... match was close until about question 15-16

Wheaton North defeated Naperville North in the semis ...... WWS, likewise to Waubonsie Valley.


Scores were very high ...... at least two matches saw 19/20 combined toss-up conversion .... a few more 17-18 cmbined toss-up conversion with many 15 or 20/20 on bonuses.

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Post by Tegan » Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:39 pm

.... and KUDOS to Aegis Questions ...... undoubtedly the best question in the 25 year history of the Masonic State Tournament ... hands down, bar none.


Best moment of the tournament, and this I kid you not about:

bonus on the skeleton: name the bone which is the only one not to articulate with another.

given answer: adam's apple bone

I kid you not!! It took me a good 15 seconds to put my eyes back in my sockets.

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Post by RSido » Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:49 pm

You mean the hyoid.
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