2007 Post-Nationals Poll Discussion - Results are in!

Dormant threads from the high school sections are preserved here.
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Post by AKKOLADE »

I still have about five ballots to look over, and then I need to e-mail a couple of people about their ballots and see where things go from there. Once that's all done, we'll have a finalized ranking.
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Post by BuzzerZen »

quizbowllee wrote:Come on! Let's see the results! :smile:
Don't rush Fred...he is subtle and quick to anger.
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Post by AKKOLADE »

I've completed going over posts. At this point, I'm just working on updating the list of teams.
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Post by AKKOLADE »

RESULTS ARE HERE

http://www.wvquizbowl.org/july07.html

I'm looking forward to being told how terrible I am at running polls!
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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

FRED YOU SUCK AT POLLS AND LIFE

No, actually I think it's about as good a poll as you can get anywhere, consider the many conflicting results and stats (beyond Maggie Walker, I mean).
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Post by leapfrog314 »

I'm surprised that so many people didn't put Brindlee Mountain A in their top 25. They almost made it over us (New Trier) to the playoffs at PACE.

Overall, I think the results are very reasonable. Thanks, Fred and the community! (Well, including myself...)
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Post by Quizbowler123 »

leapfrog314 wrote:I'm surprised that so many people didn't put Brindlee Mountain A in their top 25. They almost made it over us (New Trier) to the playoffs at PACE.

Overall, I think the results are very reasonable. Thanks, Fred and the community! (Well, including myself...)

I don't understand why anyone ranked them at all. I was just looking over the stats and it seems they didn't make the playoffs at either national championship.

maybe I'm out of line to say this but how can they justify being in the top 25 in the nation?

There are many more deserving teams. Take Shady Side, for example. They were ranked in the top 25 in the pre-national poll, beat Brindlee Mountain, and finished tied for 21st at NAQT. However, this time they weren't ranked at all.
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Post by quizbowllee »

leapfrog314 wrote:I'm surprised that so many people didn't put Brindlee Mountain A in their top 25. They almost made it over us (New Trier) to the playoffs at PACE.

Overall, I think the results are very reasonable. Thanks, Fred and the community! (Well, including myself...)
Unfortunately for us, BMHS A choked hard at both nationals. Very few team saw BMHS A at their best at nationals. I know in the round that we played you (New Trier), I counted at least three REALLY stupid mistakes that my team made. If they had managed NOT to make even one of those, we would've won.

At NAQT we were rolling along pretty good until the heart-breaker against Maggie Walker. Then everything went to crap. It's sad to say, but I think the high point of Nationals this year is that we can say "We ALMOST beat Maggie Walker". I'm more proud of that than I am of the rounds we DID win....

At any rate, I'm actually surprised we stayed in the top 25. I was expecting BMHS B to be ranked higher than A based on their dark horse performance at Nationals.
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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

Quizbowler123 wrote:
leapfrog314 wrote:I'm surprised that so many people didn't put Brindlee Mountain A in their top 25. They almost made it over us (New Trier) to the playoffs at PACE.

Overall, I think the results are very reasonable. Thanks, Fred and the community! (Well, including myself...)

I don't understand why anyone ranked them at all. I was just looking over the stats and it seems they didn't make the playoffs at either national championship.

maybe I'm out of line to say this but how can they justify being in the top 25 in the nation?

There are many more deserving teams. Take Shady Side, for example. They were ranked in the top 25 in the pre-national poll, beat Brindlee Mountain, and finished tied for 21st at NAQT. However, this time they weren't ranked at all.
Because their B team ended up tied for 21st, just like Shady Side, and as such definitely made the playoffs at NAQT.
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Post by Quizbowler123 »

charlieDfromNKC wrote:
Quizbowler123 wrote:
leapfrog314 wrote:I'm surprised that so many people didn't put Brindlee Mountain A in their top 25. They almost made it over us (New Trier) to the playoffs at PACE.

Overall, I think the results are very reasonable. Thanks, Fred and the community! (Well, including myself...)

I don't understand why anyone ranked them at all. I was just looking over the stats and it seems they didn't make the playoffs at either national championship.

maybe I'm out of line to say this but how can they justify being in the top 25 in the nation?

There are many more deserving teams. Take Shady Side, for example. They were ranked in the top 25 in the pre-national poll, beat Brindlee Mountain, and finished tied for 21st at NAQT. However, this time they weren't ranked at all.
Because their B team ended up tied for 21st, just like Shady Side, and as such definitely made the playoffs at NAQT.
Why is Brindlee Mountain B not ranked then?
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Post by BuzzerZen »

I'm amused that TJ had at least one match against each of the other top 9 during the regular season. Hooray pressure-cooker region.
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Post by Stat Boy »

I'm amused that TJ had at least one match against each of the other top 9 during the regular season. Hooray pressure-cooker region.
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Post by The Toad to Wigan Pier »

quizbowllee wrote:
leapfrog314 wrote:I'm surprised that so many people didn't put Brindlee Mountain A in their top 25. They almost made it over us (New Trier) to the playoffs at PACE.

Overall, I think the results are very reasonable. Thanks, Fred and the community! (Well, including myself...)
Unfortunately for us, BMHS A choked hard at both nationals. Very few team saw BMHS A at their best at nationals. I know in the round that we played you (New Trier), I counted at least three REALLY stupid mistakes that my team made. If they had managed NOT to make even one of those, we would've won.

At NAQT we were rolling along pretty good until the heart-breaker against Maggie Walker. Then everything went to crap. It's sad to say, but I think the high point of Nationals this year is that we can say "We ALMOST beat Maggie Walker". I'm more proud of that than I am of the rounds we DID win....

At any rate, I'm actually surprised we stayed in the top 25. I was expecting BMHS B to be ranked higher than A based on their dark horse performance at Nationals.
I hate to break it to you, but the reason why Brindlee Mountain A came close to winning was because we were playing poorly. It was arguably our worst performance at nationals in terms of how well we were playing.
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Post by vcuEvan »

I negged 5 times that game which hurt us a little :oops:
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Post by swwFCqb »

Was Maggie Walker's B team at the HSNCT their regular B team?? If it was, then I'm somewhat surprised that there weren't more teams ranked ahead of them. Granted I only saw them at nationals, but we played them twice and they won on the last question both times. I'm not intending to knock them in any way, because they are a really good team, it's just that they didn't impress me enough to put them ahead of some of the teams they beat in this poll. I'd put Hunter and State College B ahead of them (of course they aren't that far behind anyways) and Dunbar a good distance ahead of them. I'd also put Tippecanoe, who didn't even get a vote, a good bit ahead of them. That's just my 2 cents, though.
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Post by vcuEvan »

swwFCqb wrote:Was Maggie Walker's B team at the HSNCT their regular B team?? If it was, then I'm somewhat surprised that there weren't more teams ranked ahead of them. Granted I only saw them at nationals, but we played them twice and they won on the last question both times. I'm not intending to knock them in any way, because they are a really good team, it's just that they didn't impress me enough to put them ahead of some of the teams they beat in this poll. I'd put Hunter and State College B ahead of them (of course they aren't that far behind anyways) and Dunbar a good distance ahead of them. I'd also put Tippecanoe, who didn't even get a vote, a good bit ahead of them. That's just my 2 cents, though.
Although you may have a point, MW B did beat State College A, TJ A, and Gonzaga at least once over the year.
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Post by Dachspmg »

iambusyeating wrote:Although you may have a point, MW B did beat State College A, TJ A, and Gonzaga at least once over the year.
That was our TJ A that incorporated elements of TJ C, and IIRC that was William and Mary. ;)
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Post by jbarnes112358 »

swwFCqb wrote:Was Maggie Walker's B team at the HSNCT their regular B team?? If it was, then I'm somewhat surprised that there weren't more teams ranked ahead of them. Granted I only saw them at nationals, but we played them twice and they won on the last question both times. I'm not intending to knock them in any way, because they are a really good team, it's just that they didn't impress me enough to put them ahead of some of the teams they beat in this poll. I'd put Hunter and State College B ahead of them (of course they aren't that far behind anyways) and Dunbar a good distance ahead of them. I'd also put Tippecanoe, who didn't even get a vote, a good bit ahead of them. That's just my 2 cents, though.
MW B did have a less than stellar HSNCT but came back with a credible performance at PACE NSC, finishing 2nd in the consolation bracket (around 14th overall, I believe.) I am not saying they should be ranked higher or lower, just offering another possible explanation.
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Post by Maxwell Sniffingwell »

I can't say I'm happy about Maine South's 0 mentions on the national poll... but, Byko, Tegan's right. We've got 57 wins and 9 losses that got excluded.

Glad to see Gov and State 1-2, though. Heckuva good team, those are.
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Post by jbarnes112358 »

tachyonwill wrote: I hate to break it to you, but the reason why Brindlee Mountain A came close to winning was because we were playing poorly. It was arguably our worst performance at nationals in terms of how well we were playing.
You may have been playing poorly, but Brindlee Mountain A was also playing well and taking advantage of your mistakes. BM A apparently had some quality wins during the season even if nationals did not go especially well for them.
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Post by AKKOLADE »

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Post by Stained Diviner »

Greg/Corn: Keep in mind that Nationals played a heavy role in the rankings. Based on your performance at Nationals, it would be very easy to make a case that you should be in the Top 40, but not the top 25. Change the results of maybe two matches, and that changes.

Several of the rankings could have swung heavily with two or three matches here or there, because a lot of the teams involved don't play against each other that often and in many cases there is not a big gap separating them. Plenty of people in Illinois know that the gap between New Trier and Maine South was very small. You beat us three times, and there are a lot of teams on the list that you could have beaten without shocking anybody.
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Post by quizbowllee »

jbarnes112358 wrote:
tachyonwill wrote: I hate to break it to you, but the reason why Brindlee Mountain A came close to winning was because we were playing poorly. It was arguably our worst performance at nationals in terms of how well we were playing.
You may have been playing poorly, but Brindlee Mountain A was also playing well and taking advantage of your mistakes. BM A apparently had some quality wins during the season even if nationals did not go especially well for them.
Thanks for the kind words both here and in Chicago.

No, nationals didn't go well. I will publicly take the blame for some of that... I experimented with line-ups probably more than I should have at nationals. In hindsight, I could've fielded a much more competitive A-team (at the detriment of the B-team).

As for the Maggie Walker match, I realize that you guys were having an off round - and we did capitalize on some of those mistakes. However, we weren't playing too well, either (especially in the second-half) and the team was really down on themselves for not getting some tossups earlier. At any rate, it was an honor to play you guys at all. That match - regardless of the outcome - was one of the highlights of our season.

That being said, I appreciate everyone who did vote for Brindlee Mountain in the poll despite us faltering at Nationals. We did have a very good season leading up to NAQT and PACE, and I think that played a big role in us remaining in the top 25.
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Post by jrbellas »

I thought both Brindlee Mtn. teams were excellent and very deserving of inclusion in the poll.

Ohio fared poorly in the voting, but not suprisingly so.
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Post by killbill_07 »

Brindlee Mountain A deserves to be in the top 10 in my opinion. At PACE, my team(Novi) won against New Trier, almost beat Gonzaga, lost to Maggie Walker really badly, and then proceeded to get completely annihilated by Brindlee Mountain A(by like 400 points). Maybe the questions in the round which we played were right up the alley of the players of Brindlee Mountain but they seemed to be dominant on almost every question type and appeared to have a very impressive amount of list knowledge.

This is why I think sometimes that rather than finishes at a national tournament which is often heavily influenced by circumstance/luck as much ability, I think that a close game with a truly top team like MGWS A is more telling of a team's potential ability.
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Post by Stained Diviner »

Let's make Brindlee Mountain A #10. They lost to Saint Ignatius, so Saint Ignatius would have to be at least #9. Saint Ignatius lost to Walnut Hills, so Walnut Hills would have to be at least #8. Walnut Hills lost to Wheaton North, so Wheaton North would have to be at least #7. Wheaton North lost to William S Hart, so William S Hart would have to be at least #6. William S Hart lost to Culver A, so Culver A would have to be at least #5. Culver A lost to Edmond Memorial, so Edmond Memorial would have to be at least #4. Edmond Memorial lost to Greater Sioux Falls Home School Association, so they would have to be at least #3. GSFHSA lost to Bergen County Academies B, so BCA B would have to be at least #2. BCA B lost to Dunbar B, so Dunbar B would have to be the National Champion.

My logic is perfect, unless you want to argue that there is some reason to take overall performance into account.

Congratulations, Dunbar B!
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Post by Gunnells »

mhanna wrote:That was the year that Clemson won the national championship and Wofford scored more points against the Tigers than any of their D-1 opponents.
I'll have you know South Carolina scored three more points than the Terriers that year. Also, Danny cheated.
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Post by The Logic of Scientific Disco »

ReinsteinD wrote:so BCA B would have to be at least #2.
I'm glad to see my former high school finally getting the recognition they deserve.

(n.b. I'm not from Charter, so this post should not be taken seriously.)
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Post by Maxwell Sniffingwell »

ReinsteinD wrote:Let's make Brindlee Mountain A #10. They lost to Saint Ignatius, so Saint Ignatius would have to be at least #9. Saint Ignatius lost to Walnut Hills, so Walnut Hills would have to be at least #8. Walnut Hills lost to Wheaton North, so Wheaton North would have to be at least #7. Wheaton North lost to William S Hart, so William S Hart would have to be at least #6. William S Hart lost to Culver A, so Culver A would have to be at least #5. Culver A lost to Edmond Memorial, so Edmond Memorial would have to be at least #4. Edmond Memorial lost to Greater Sioux Falls Home School Association, so they would have to be at least #3. GSFHSA lost to Bergen County Academies B, so BCA B would have to be at least #2. BCA B lost to Dunbar B, so Dunbar B would have to be the National Champion.

My logic is perfect, unless you want to argue that there is some reason to take overall performance into account.

Congratulations, Dunbar B!
Of course, similar logic could take Maine South to at least #4, New Trier #3, State College #2, Maggie Walker #1. Neener neener.
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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

And yet similar logic could take New Trier #3, NKC #2, and PENSACOLA #1!!!!
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Post by Maxwell Sniffingwell »

Pensawhat?
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Post by leapfrog314 »

cornfused wrote:Pensawhat?
Cola. It's a kind of soft drink, Greg.
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Post by gonzagaeagleahy »

killbill_07 wrote:Brindlee Mountain A deserves to be in the top 10 in my opinion. At PACE, my team(Novi) won against New Trier, almost beat Gonzaga, lost to Maggie Walker really badly, and then proceeded to get completely annihilated by Brindlee Mountain A(by like 400 points). Maybe the questions in the round which we played were right up the alley of the players of Brindlee Mountain but they seemed to be dominant on almost every question type and appeared to have a very impressive amount of list knowledge.

This is why I think sometimes that rather than finishes at a national tournament which is often heavily influenced by circumstance/luck as much ability, I think that a close game with a truly top team like MGWS A is more telling of a team's potential ability.
Wow yeah no.
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Post by brownboy79 »

While our team choked, and I think our ranking in the polls is an exaggeration of our performance (or lack thereof), I think that in any poll you are bound to have issues with creating a good way to judge teams. For example, I would say that Walnut Hills is a better team than, say, Moravian. That may or may not be true. We played matches against both, and while our results against Walnut may have been more impressive (40'ing the first 5ish, Jacob can correct that if he remembers), I don't think that it's fair to say that either team is definitively better. Another example, at Wright St. (like our match against Walnut), we played Garfield Heights and Mr. Kilner said that he didn't think we were particularly good. (Please don't consider this an attack, Bob was entirely justified in his opinions, we played a horrid match, that is absolutely not my intention, but I think this is a good example of what I mean.) The game went down to the last two or three questions and we ended up on top. Now, I suppose, that based on his opinion of the match, Mr. Kilner would rate his team higher than ours. And based on my opinion of the match, I would rate our team higher than his. This poll is not, and should not, be about who beat whom. It is about who is better than whom. And really, when you think about all the factors involved, the two can have ver little to do with each other.

That said, I disagree wholeheartedly in Dunbar's position in the rankings. :wink:
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