CANCELLED: Cavalier Open 2/23/08 @ UVa

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CANCELLED: Cavalier Open 2/23/08 @ UVa

Post by Oddi » Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:01 pm

We are sorry to announce that we will not be holding the Cavalier Open this year. We are aware that this goes against a post made on the message board a while back, but we've had to deal with some unforeseen logistical issues. We're very sorry for the confusion.

We will still be hosting the State tournament in April 19, as stated on the NAQT website.


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Post by ieppler » Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:40 pm

What set will be used? All of the non-A sets except IS-70 have already been claimed for the DC area, and many DC area teams played IS-70 at Princeton.
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Post by Eric Huff » Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:06 pm

We (Dorman) played IS 70 at the University of Georgia (as did Chattahoochee and a couple other teams that would probably want to make the trek up to Charlottesville). We were really looking forward to the UVA tournament. Hopefully a set can be found that would work for all who are interested in competing.
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Post by mithokie » Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:39 pm

NAQT.com lists the tournament as IS-74... which makes no sense, since that is the DACQ Weeknd of Quizbowl Sunday Tournament set.

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Post by yangsta » Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:32 am

I'm not sure how DACQ was assigned IS-74, as Cav Open was supposed to have geographic exclusivity for VA.

What are the schools that went to Princeton? Would have make more sense for DACQ to be 74 or 70?

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Post by STPickrell » Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:18 am

Could the questions from WashU's tournament on the 2nd February be used here? Granted there's 3/2 math per match but I think the UVA team could write replacements for those.

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Post by DumbJaques » Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:29 pm

I can assure you, positively, that IS-74 has the least amount of overlap for us. Even it has a bit too much, but switching right now would be an absolute impossibility. As for the teams that went to Princeton. . . I'm fairly sure a good number of them have already registered or have told me they will register.

Would IS-72 work? Or, possibly, could you use the Princeton set/WashU set? I've got a lot of local VA teams signed up as well as most of the top teams, so I don't think either of us would like to compete on the sets.
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Post by yangsta » Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:33 pm

DumbJaques wrote:I can assure you, positively, that IS-74 has the least amount of overlap for us. Even it has a bit too much, but switching right now would be an absolute impossibility. As for the teams that went to Princeton. . . I'm fairly sure a good number of them have already registered or have told me they will register.

Would IS-72 work? Or, possibly, could you use the Princeton set/WashU set? I've got a lot of local VA teams signed up as well as most of the top teams, so I don't think either of us would like to compete on the sets.
This is a rather tight pickle. IS-72 was used by GDS, and IS-68 was used by TJ in the fall. I don't think anybody wants to "compete" for teams...

I'm also trying to understand is what NAQT's "geographic exclusivity" means exactly.

Btw, I don't represent UVa except as an outside consultant.

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Post by Robbie Ram » Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:34 pm

What probably happened here is that I don't think DACQ asked for any geographic exclusivity for their tournament because the teams are from all over, but they *did* specifically request IS-74 because they wanted the last IS set issued for the year (in the hopes that the question selection, quality, & editing would be as good as possible).

I recall a discussion earlier in the year when DACQ was trying to decide on a question set, and someone from Stuyvesant who had attended the Princeton tournament referred to IS-70 as a 'gawdawful piece of [expletive deleted]', or something like that. The consensus seemed to be that the IS-70 question quality, subject distribution, and/or editing was poor to say the least. (I can't judge IS-70 from personal experience since I haven't heard/seen that set; I'm just relaying what I saw in the forums earlier in the season.)

On the other hand, the only local teams who attended Princeton and would also possibly attend UVA are Whitman and Gonzaga, plus maybe Wilmington Charter and/or State College. The top NY/NJ teams who attended Princeton (e.g. Stuyvesant, Hunter, Seton Hall, & Kellenberg) don't usually come to UVA, as I recall. Dorman and Chattahoochie did play IS-70 (as someone from Dorman pointed out in a previous post), so they would unfortunately be ineligible for IS-70. I believe all (or nearly all) of the above *are* planning to attend DACQ.

In other words, the teams ineligible for IS-70 who might otherwise attend the Cavalier Open would be:
Chattahoochie
Dorman
Gonzaga
State College
Wilmington Charter
Whitman

If you assume that area teams who are registered for DACQ will attend that rather than the Cavalier Open if a choice has to be made, then the following teams would be ineligible for IS-74:

Buckingham Co. (VA)
Chattahoochie
Dorman
E. C. Glass (VA)
Georgetown Day School
Gonzaga
MLK Magnet (TN)
Maggie Walker Gov. Sch.
J. W. Robinson (VA)
St. Stephen/St. Agnes (VA)
Thomas Jefferson
Whitman
Wilmington Charter

It's also reasonable to guess that State College might yet sign up for DACQ (which apparently they haven't yet), which would also put them in this list.

My conclusion: if you have to pick between IS-70 and IS-74, you'd exclude fewer teams by using IS-70. The same 6 area teams who are ineligible for IS-70 are (with the possible exception of State College) going to be ineligible for IS-74 *anyway*, but you'd exclude 12-14 *more* teams (assuming B and/or C and/or D teams for TJ, MWGS, & GDS) by going with IS-74.

The best bet, as Shawn suggested, might be to go non-NAQT unless you have no other choice...!!!

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Post by First Chairman » Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:37 pm

Of course, anyone who is ineligible to play on the NAQT set... we'd be happy to have you all help staff. :) Granted, that probably isn't what you wanted to do in the first place... but...
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Post by Robbie Ram » Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:50 pm

FYI, here's NAQT's official "geographic exclusivity' policy from their website (http://www.naqt.com/hs/geographic-exclusivity.html):
Hosts specify the exclusivity that they want by providing a list of states; NAQT will not allow another tournament to be hosted in any of those states using the same questions.
So, it appears that either (1) NAQT screwed up by allowing both UVA and DACQ to host an IS-74 tournament within the state of Virginia, or (2) neither UVA nor DACQ asked for geographic exclusivity for Virginia. Those seem to be the only two possibilites for this situation.

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Post by ieppler » Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:57 pm

The WashU set will be used at William and Mary on February 17th, so that probably isn't an option. I believe that there was a house-written set used at Illinois in October or November that wasn't really discussed on the board, so that might work. Another possibility could be the NKC/Hunter set, but Charlie told me that he didn't really want a DC area mirror and many DC area teams will be going to Hunter anyway. Someone from Truman State tried to set up a mirror a few months ago. I think that the post is in the "regular season tournament discussion" section.
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Post by AKKOLADE » Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:03 pm

Robbie Ram wrote:FYI, here's NAQT's official "geographic exclusivity' policy from their website (http://www.naqt.com/hs/geographic-exclusivity.html):
Hosts specify the exclusivity that they want by providing a list of states; NAQT will not allow another tournament to be hosted in any of those states using the same questions.
So, it appears that either (1) NAQT screwed up by allowing both UVA and DACQ to host an IS-74 tournament within the state of Virginia, or (2) neither UVA nor DACQ asked for geographic exclusivity for Virginia. Those seem to be the only two possibilites for this situation.
But isn't the policy also set so that a host receives exclusivity for their home state (or region) automatically? If so, then only the first scenario is the possible case.
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Post by Robbie Ram » Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:20 pm

leftsaidfred wrote:
Robbie Ram wrote:FYI, here's NAQT's official "geographic exclusivity' policy from their website (http://www.naqt.com/hs/geographic-exclusivity.html):
Hosts specify the exclusivity that they want by providing a list of states; NAQT will not allow another tournament to be hosted in any of those states using the same questions.
So, it appears that either (1) NAQT screwed up by allowing both UVA and DACQ to host an IS-74 tournament within the state of Virginia, or (2) neither UVA nor DACQ asked for geographic exclusivity for Virginia. Those seem to be the only two possibilites for this situation.
But isn't the policy also set so that a host receives exclusivity for their home state (or region) automatically? If so, then only the first scenario is the possible case.
Yes, it seems you're right; here's the relevant line in the NAQT policy (http://www.naqt.com/hs/geographic-exclusivity.html):
NAQT wrote:All tournaments receive geographic exclusivity for the state in which they are hosted.
Sounds like someone needs to file a complaint with NAQT...

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Post by AKKOLADE » Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:59 pm

Robbie Ram wrote:Sounds like someone needs to file a complaint with NAQT...
I've let R. Robert Hentzel know.
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Post by STPickrell » Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:24 pm

I'm assuming the Rolla fall and Vandy sets have been seen in the DC area.

Given that this is in Virginia, I don't have any way of helping out here, as all my tossups have been seen by well, everyone in Virginia. The stuff I'm writing for MSHSAA series play is (1) probably a bit too easy for an elite tournament and (2) can't be played on until MSHSAA series play occurs.

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Post by DumbJaques » Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:38 pm

Hey, so I just heard from Hentzel. Apparently somewhere in the chain they got confused about where the tournament was at base being held, or possibly I asked for the set before our location was finalized. In any event, DACQ should have had (and now does have) geographic exclusivity for Virginia. I believe we'll also be claiming it for DC and MD as well, though I doubt anyone will be hosting any tournaments on IS-74 in those states.

Sorry for the confusion.
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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:43 pm

As far as I know, a lot of DC area teams that originally expressed interest in Hunter's tournament haven't signed up due to other conflicts or something. However, I may have discussed specific answers on the set with 1 or 2 people who had told me they wouldn't be able to make the Hunter tournament (Ian and Shantanu, can you IM me and tell me if I have?). If it seems like nobody from DC will be hearing the set, then yeah, I don't see too big of a reason why we can't run it there. However, I'd need to talk to Guy before making anything official.
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Post by Gonzagapuma1 » Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:01 pm

Deesy Does It wrote:As far as I know, a lot of DC area teams that originally expressed interest in Hunter's tournament haven't signed up due to other conflicts or something. However, I may have discussed specific answers on the set with 1 or 2 people who had told me they wouldn't be able to make the Hunter tournament (Ian and Shantanu, can you IM me and tell me if I have?). If it seems like nobody from DC will be hearing the set, then yeah, I don't see too big of a reason why we can't run it there. However, I'd need to talk to Guy before making anything official.
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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:04 pm

Oh, Guy didn't tell me that.
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Post by aestheteboy » Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:08 pm

Didn't Vanderbilt produce two sets a year? I really would like to see a DC mirror on the spring set because I thought last year's set, which I heard at Patriot Games, were the best questions all year except PACE nats.
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Post by jbarnes112358 » Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:17 pm

Given the caliber of teams at DACQ, why not use one of the easier recent NAQT college sets? That way, UVA could use IS-74.

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Post by DumbJaques » Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:24 pm

The problem with that is that the Div II sets overlap with one hs set (I think this year it will be IS-74, in fact, but it could be the state questions). So yeah, that wouldn't work out.
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Post by Matt Weiner » Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:26 pm

The DI sets do not overlap. They would not be difficulty-appropriate for any local teams coming to DACQ, I doubt NAQT would be interested in letting you run a high school tournament on them, and there will be issues with people discussing SCT after it happens on February 9. Those problems seem insurmountable, but the idea of having the elite HS teams play on DI Sectionals is interesting nonetheless.

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Post by yangsta » Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:16 pm

Current state of affairs is that we'll use IS-70, but this is not at this point set in stone -- we're exploring other options to avoid excluding Dorman, Whitman, Gonzaga, and others.

Rest assured that asking NAQT to use college sets is not among the options.
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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:17 pm

Vanderbilt's spring tournament is on April 5th, which seems just too late to use for both UVA and DACQ.
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Post by yangsta » Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:21 pm

Deesy Does It wrote:Vanderbilt's spring tournament is on April 5th, which seems just too late to use for both UVA and DACQ.
Theoretically the NAQT state championship tournament could be moved from April to March 1, then move the invitational to sometime in April.

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Post by Matt Weiner » Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:27 pm

yangsta wrote:Theoretically the NAQT state championship tournament could be moved from April to March 1, then move the invitational to sometime in April.
You mean moving it to February 23 in place of the current tournament, right?

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Post by yangsta » Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:29 pm

Matt Weiner wrote:
yangsta wrote:Theoretically the NAQT state championship tournament could be moved from April to March 1, then move the invitational to sometime in April.
You mean moving it to February 23 in place of the current tournament, right?
When I looked at the schedule and noticed a slew of state championships on March 1 but none prior, I assumed that March 1 was the NAQT cut off. Upon closer inspection, it looks like the state championship can be anytime after February 1, so yes, it could be February 23 if it's not widely considered too early.

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Post by STPickrell » Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:32 pm

jbarnes112358 wrote:Given the caliber of teams at DACQ, why not use one of the easier recent NAQT college sets? That way, UVA could use IS-74.
Remember, Chris is trying to get some local teams at DACQ in a 'Cinderella' bracket.

I agree with Matt, though, that D1 questions may be appropriate for the elite teams. It may be too late this year to have DACQ be on D1 questions, but this is surely a possibility for 2009. NAQT has a blackout on HSNCT discussion due to the mirrors of that run at MN and UTC.

Yangsta: VHSL states are March 1 this year.

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Post by Matt Weiner » Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:32 pm

Well, I believe the first weekend in March is the VHSL states, so I wanted to make sure there wasn't a conflict.
STPickrell wrote: NAQT has a blackout on HSNCT discussion due to the mirrors of that run at MN and UTC.
This is not the case. NAQT asks participants in the mirrors to avoid looking at the discussion threads or podcasts, on the honor system. This site uses the same rule and does not discourage HSNCT discussion.

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Post by STPickrell » Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:48 pm

Matt Weiner wrote:Well, I believe the first weekend in March is the VHSL states, so I wanted to make sure there wasn't a conflict.
STPickrell wrote: NAQT has a blackout on HSNCT discussion due to the mirrors of that run at MN and UTC.
This is not the case. NAQT asks participants in the mirrors to avoid looking at the discussion threads or podcasts, on the honor system. This site uses the same rule and does not discourage HSNCT discussion.
OK, thanks for the correction. My point is that it would be possible to have a HS tournament on D1 questions using the same rules. You could have the Cinderella bracket on a regular IS set.

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Post by Robbie Ram » Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:57 pm

yangsta wrote:
Matt Weiner wrote:
yangsta wrote:Theoretically the NAQT state championship tournament could be moved from April to March 1, then move the invitational to sometime in April.
You mean moving it to February 23 in place of the current tournament, right?
When I looked at the schedule and noticed a slew of state championships on March 1 but none prior, I assumed that March 1 was the NAQT cut off. Upon closer inspection, it looks like the state championship can be anytime after February 1, so yes, it could be February 23 if it's not widely considered too early.
I would be in favor of this option. I can't see how it would be "too early" if it's after the official sanctioned NAQT SCT start date and if many other states are indeed having their SCTs only 1 week later, as it appears! In fact, I'd favor having the NAQT VA SCT in February or March *every* year, but I guess that's a discussion for another time...

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Post by jbarnes112358 » Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:11 pm

Early NAQT states would be ideal, since slots for nationals are filling up and I would like to have another chance to qualify a B team.

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Post by yangsta » Sat Jan 12, 2008 1:51 am

Thanks for the feedback about earlier state championship. Will post here as soon as any decision is made.

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Post by aestheteboy » Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:42 pm

Has a decision been made regarding the fee structure and the question set? Normally I wouldn't care until the last minute, but according to my coach MCPS has gotten stricter about trips to places outside of 60 mile radius, and we need to decide whether or not we want to go pretty early.
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Post by Galstaff, Sorceror of Light » Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:48 am

Gov is also anxious to find out which questions will be used, as WUHSAC's questions were suggested and we're considering sending a team to another tournament using those questions. As this would be one of few tournaments in a long string for this part of the tournament open to our entire club, we'd really like to avoid a conflict.
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Post by ieppler » Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:19 pm

pblessman wrote:Great question, sorry I didn't address that in the original post. Normally it does, but this year it doesn't. This set will not conflict with ANY NAQT HS set (IS, IS-A, or any of the league and special State sets).
If the SCT DII set is ready in time for this tournament, could it be used instead of IS-70? The only SCT questions I've seen are the samples on the NAQT website, but they don't look too hard for a regular-season DC area tournament.

edited to remove double quote

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Post by Gonzagapuma1 » Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:58 pm

Hopper wrote:If the SCT DII set is ready in time for this tournament, could it be used instead of IS-70? The only SCT questions I've seen are the samples on the NAQT website, but they don't look too hard for a regular-season DC area tournament.
Div II SCT would be a really good tune-up for hsnct in my opinion.

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Post by AKKOLADE » Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:10 am

Gonzagapuma1 wrote: Div II SCT would be a really good tune-up for hsnct in my opinion.
Would this not affect the high school player's eligibility? Also, isn't NAQT's rules about SCT participation pretty stringent in that it must be actual college students?
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Post by dtaylor4 » Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:12 am

leftsaidfred wrote:
Gonzagapuma1 wrote: Div II SCT would be a really good tune-up for hsnct in my opinion.
Would this not affect the high school player's eligibility? Also, isn't NAQT's rules about SCT participation pretty stringent in that it must be actual college students?
He's talking about using the set, not attending the tournament itself, a la Culver's tournament.

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Post by AKKOLADE » Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:53 am

DaGeneral wrote:
leftsaidfred wrote:
Gonzagapuma1 wrote: Div II SCT would be a really good tune-up for hsnct in my opinion.
Would this not affect the high school player's eligibility? Also, isn't NAQT's rules about SCT participation pretty stringent in that it must be actual college students?
He's talking about using the set, not attending the tournament itself, a la Culver's tournament.
Yay reading comprehension on my part. Sorry.
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Post by jbarnes112358 » Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:27 pm

Hello. HELLO!

Is anybody from UVA reading this board?

People really need to know what's going on so we can plan our schedules accordingly. Thanks.

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Post by STPickrell » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:03 am

jbarnes112358 wrote:Hello. HELLO!

Is anybody from UVA reading this board?

People really need to know what's going on so we can plan our schedules accordingly. Thanks.
I second that thought. I mentioned this to the coach @ Western Albemarle and he seemed interested in attending, but I didn't have any updates to give to him!

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Post by mithokie » Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:02 pm

I am not from UVA... but NAQT's website has the tournament listed as IS-70 for 2/23, but last we heard from Yangsta is that this was not finalized.

I know that if I don't have a registration form by 2/8, I will probably be unable to get the trip together for my team. I am supposed to have all paper work in for travel stuff 2 weeks before the event if at all possible, so please someone Confirm the details of this event and get a registration form sent out to coaches.

Thanks!

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pretzeldude92
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Post by pretzeldude92 » Sun Feb 03, 2008 9:18 am

Rappahannock County should be bringing 2 teams to this event when registration forms, details, etc. come out. If there is a small school division, we'd probably wish to join that.

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kamikaze
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Post by kamikaze » Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:56 pm

Just got an e-mail from Samantha Oddi that the tournament is off due to logistics. Sorry guys.
Bob Powers
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Cave Spring High School

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Matt Weiner
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Post by Matt Weiner » Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:27 pm

Hey: If there is interest and we can line up questions, I think we might be able to host a replacement tournament at VCU. It would be limited to 16-20 teams, which means any teams beyond the B team from one school would be waitlisted. If people would want to play in such an event on February 23, post here. I'll leave the discussion open until Monday morning and then make a decision.

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Post by STPickrell » Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:45 pm

WashU questions amirite?

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Post by Galstaff, Sorceror of Light » Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:54 pm

Gov would most likely be interested...I'll email Dr. B. and ask. UVA was going to be one of few remaining tournaments open to our whole club...
Sam (Sarah Angelo) Luongo,
Maggie L. Walker Governor's School 2010 / UVA 2014 / VCU School of Education 2016
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